BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 08:13 AM

"Who in their right mind would inflict pain and suffering on anyone, especially children? Understanding that these people are not quite right has gone a long way to dispel the guilt I felt when it happened to me. I understood that it was not my fault. The person was just sick.

Are we saying there is no hope of rehabilitation for these people? If indeed it is an addiction which does fall into spectrum of mental health, then there are ways to deal with it."

People who are abused as children often feel guilt, Virginia Tam. I'm really glad you've been able to come to terms with it. :)

The problem with paedophilia, from what I've seen and read, is that there is no "cure" - at least not at the moment. Did you see the programme on Sarah's Law a few years ago? It's a comulsive activity, and I agree that it is a profound mental disorder. But the cases of recidivism, even amongst those who have finished treatment perogrammes, is extremely high. there are arguments about whether offenders can be "cured".

That's why it's the only type of "crime" which I think should be punished by a full life sentence, at least until some proven treatment method is discovered. In fact, it might be helpful if it were reclassified as a mental illness full stop, and if offenders were treated in the same way as someone, say, with psychosis would be if they committed a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 09:32 AM

I think the courts should hand out punishment, because judges and juries have far more knowledge of the cases than any private citizen. You don't know how serious a crime might have been, you just know a name shows up on a list somewhere. You can make all the rules you want regarding private spaces, but it gets trickier in public ones because once a sentence is served and a person is released, they have rights to be in the same places as everyone else. Because 'everyone else' is in no position to take a person's rights away.

What it comes down to is protecting the children. You can make a library less of an opportunity. You can make it possible to see what's going on everywhere or make it appear as though you can. Videocameras or human eyes and a lack of secluded areas.
You can have people come in through one point where an employee can see and possibly greet them. Criminals are less likely to DO anything if someone's seen them and acknowledged them.
You can invite police who specialize in investigating child predators to come in and recommend practices and facility changes to make the place safer.

You may not only prevent known predators from hurting a child, but prevent the unknown ones from doing so. I believe prevention should be the focus and keeping convicted predators out would be more for show than for real, effective prevention. Looks good--may not work very well.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:07 AM

My budget (in USD) for this year is $1,500,000 (rounded). Of that, $1,100,000 is for salaries, benefits, and other personnel costs. That leaves $400,000 for materials ($150,000), utilities (electricity and stuff), repairs and maintenance, supplies, gas for the Subaru wagon that pulls the Book Wagon and does outreach to those at home, and to generally run the place.

As I mentioned, I've spent about $20,000 (over two years) for security television cameras. That money had to come from somewhere in the budget. I need auto-opening doors (about $17,000), better roof insulation and a new roof fabric ($50,000), to replace all of the lighting with new, more energy efficient units ($20,000), and looming ahead in the next few years are new furnaces and air conditioning ($150,000). And that's just the start.

We operate on a knife edge of money and the City Council only reluctantly gives us an increase from year to year. Next year I don't expect any, possibly even a small cut.

It's all well and good to say "Watch them and use CCTV" but until I get the $$$$ to install more cameras and to hire more staff (did I mention the City's hiring freeze?) we have to do the best we can with what we have.

Over 325,000 people used the Library last year. Some were ex-convicts, some pedophiles, some packing concealed weapons, some under the influence of drugs -- we have NO way of knowing unless they call attention to themselves in some way and then we can address it.

And yes, the staff is very much aware of the Sexual Offender Registry.

What I want to do is to reduce not only the risk to the children (and even adults), but also to give my staff time to better watch for problems.

When I said that librarians don't often talk about these problems I should have added "in public." We do talk about them amongst ourselves and even let other libraries in the area know of particularly egregious people.

Oh yes -- there was the drunk who was laying on the front lawn peeing up in the air, claiming to be a fountain. We called the cops, who took this particular piece of "public art" away.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:09 AM

You're suggesting a life sentence for somebody who peeks up girls' skirts in a library?

Do you have no concept of degrees of seriousness?

MOST paedophile offences are pretty trivial. A skirt-peeker or flasher is very very unlikely to end up with a dismembered child buried in his garden.

My yoga teacher when I was a kid was also a Sunday school teacher and a scoutmaster. That combination in itself might have suggested something odd, and us kids certainly noticed something. Eventually he got two years in jail for feeling a kid up, but I don't recall anybody at the time thinking there was much point in locking him up. He was easy enough for even an 8-year-old to keep at arm's length.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:23 AM

I think that the little girl's mother might rip your balls off if she caught you doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:29 AM

Mother horrified at policeman showing photo of "paedophile" during kindy session


Snip from the article "He only showed the photo for a moment," said my colleague, who was present when this incident happened. "It was stuck to the inside cover of a book he carried and he opened it to show everyone. It was a photo of an old, bald man with a beard. Now, every time I see an old, bald man with a beard, I will wonder if he is the paedophile. This was very, very wrong."

How many folkies fit the old bald bearded man description?

Please read the entire article.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:33 AM

Times have changed and the social matrix of the US and UK are not the same.

When I lived in Kentucky a man was arrested for abusing pre-teen boys. As he was being brought out of court from his preliminary hearing, the mother of one of the boys stepped out of the crowd and shot him "in the groin" with a .357 Magnum and then immediately surrendered herself and the gun to the police. He lived; she was booked and indicted, pleading not guilty. When I left two years later the prosecutors were still trying for find a place to try her where there was some microscopic chance that she'd be found guilty.

If the mothers of the 5 and 6 year old girls who had been raped by the psychologist at a local children's mental health clinic (it's in today's paper) had caught him (instead of the cops) I have no doubt they would have torn him apart with their bare hands.

Another reason I'd like to keep them out -- and this is true! -- is to protect them. Because of the registry people know who they are, and if one even looked crossways at a kid who was in the Library for story hour I dislike thinking of what might happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:59 AM

I still don't think we should seek to justify the vigilante mentality.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:02 AM

For someone often given to flights of pedantry, sir, I am surprised you could not see his reasoning; in a technical sense he was in fact being a fountain, at least for the moment.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:21 AM

Yes, he was being a fountain, but his plumbing was in violation of the local code.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:50 AM

I still don't think we should seek to justify the vigilante mentality.

I agree. Unless the criminal justice system is in a state of collapse at any given place or time, the government is unwilling or unable to fix it, and there's no other choice. But who is to make the decision as to whether that situation has arrived? I don't know. As in Rap's Kentucky story, I guess it comes down to a person deciding the situation is so bad that he or she has to act and accept whatever the consequences are.

There are a lot of things that the criminal law can't deal with. It's useless for dealing with someone who doesn't care what happens to him, or who feels such a strong need to take some particular action that the criminal consequences are a secondary consideration. That applies equally to the 9/11 suicide terrorists (or the others that are out there now); to the more extreme pedophiles, and to the lady in Kentucky with the .357.

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:13 PM

"You're suggesting a life sentence for somebody who peeks up girls' skirts in a library?"

No.


That was an interesting article, Virginia Tam. Despite the fact that "father danger" has been discredited, studies still show that anywhere between 71% and 95% of victims of paedophilia knew their abuser, whether they were family, a family friend or a more casual acquaintance.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:44 PM

Nor do I approve of vigilantes. But I do know that it can and has happened and a she-bear who believes she is defending her cubs won't worry about niceties.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:47 PM

We also had a five year old molested by a twelve year old. They were sitting at the same computer, as the kids very often do, and the staff thought they were brothers. Finally the five year old got up and told his mother, the twelve year old had gone into the little boys' room. When he came out he was identified and ended up in juvenile custody.

The five year old was frightened and so didn't do anything that would have caused the staff to move in. No, they didn't know each other.

This was before the security cameras.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 01:04 PM

I'm curious to know if 'most' public libraries have similar stories. Are there library meetings/journals/sites/newsletters...etc... which compare notes?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 01:06 PM

No, Bill. It's almost always oral transmission, unless it makes the local paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 02:48 PM

Rapaire, I tend to disagree with the 'solution' of banning them or anyone else on any kind of list. Recidivism or not, there may be people out there who are trying to understand and thereby overcome ther compulsion. What better place than a library to do the research?

I don't like our current turn toward 'security guards' in every conceivable format but a library may be another place that would benefit from having a uniformed guard strolling around.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM

Ebbie, I don't have the money. As I noted before, it just isn't there and it isn't likely to be for some time to come. And believe me, this Library is not alone in not having money.

Besides, this would not apply to college and university libraries -- which are much more likely to have the information needed and are frequently almost exclusively by adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 03:43 PM

I'm a library hauntee - but I rarely, if ever, have gone to college or university libraries. If I don't find something in my public library or in the Alaska State Library I look for it online and amongst friends and acquaintances.

I suspect that I'm not alone in this.

By the way, I do not have this paricular bent!

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

This would not apply to state libraries, the library congress, special libraries, law libraries. Only public libraries and, I hasten to say, only in Idaho.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 05:20 PM

Parents SHOULD watch their kids, but they don't.

Then take it up with the parents. Its THEIR abdication of responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:01 PM

Yes, Greg, but if the parents DON'T help, Rapaire still has the problem. There needs to be a solution for the library, not just an assigning of guilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 09:48 PM

Don't public libraries have two separate sections? One for youths, and
one for adults? The libraries that I've been two do that, and there is
usually a lobby between the two. Make it a rule, that they can go
there, only to stay in the adult section. That is, if they were
released on parole. If they had to serve their entire sentence without
parole, then they should be banned. (If you're a little more liberal
than that, then they need to have another adult with them to supervise
until they are sure that the person can go to the library without a
worry that they'll repeat their offense. Libraries are usually secure,
anyway.
Sending criminals to prison is supposed to punish them, and once they
prove that they've learned their lesson and can re-enter society, then
they should be given a chance. They let armed robbers out of prison
who have turned out fine, and frauds as well. For pedophiles, since
this is a more serious issue:
They should be supervised for quite some time, and be occasionally left on their own (not knowing that there will be video surveillance or some sort of monitoring like that), and as soon as they show the first sign that they might repeat the offense, they'll be thrown back in jail before they can hurt anyone. If they knowingly step within
the five hundred yards without a supervisor, their supervisor (or
someone else who's spying on them) will arrest him.
You have to test them, because some of them might actually turn out
fine after prison. (The several thousand times they got the tar
badly kicked out of them in jail, would have taught them that lesson).

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: MAG
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 09:49 PM

Actually there was an article in one of my professional journals -- I want to say, *School Library Journal* -- but I'm really not sure. The article was specifically about the problem.

I don't have *Library Literature* available to search, but tomorrow I'll see if it's on Proquest (magazine data base).

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:39 PM

Rapaire – I'm being the devil's advocate here, but I suspect you're stepping into a real mine field in trying to get meaningful legislation passed on any sort of "banning".    There's going to be a conflict of interests if your library's philosophy is similar to our public library's here in a small Montana city.

About a decade ago our library was asked to ban "The Joy of Sex," and then, just this fall, "The Joy of Gay Sex".   The library refused to, and staunchly defended having those books on the shelf, based on freedom of speech and information. One strong argument presented in the library's favor was that parents should be the ones to monitor what their impressionable youngsters were
perusing.

It seems that not wanting to ban "books," but wanting to ban "people" who have possibly already paid their debt to society, is an intellectual conflict.   Also I wonder about the policy of not viewing porn sites on the library's computer – is that not freedom of speech denied ?   

I'm glad my library has the books it has, and I don't want to see anything banned.   I suspect the answer, as suggested by others above, is eternal vigilance, first by the parents, and then by the library staff.

And of course if I found anyone trying to molest my granddaughters I'd gladly castrate them with a rusty pocket knife.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 11:29 AM

A lot of libraries these days, including "mine", are open warehouses -- they're cheaper to build, you see, and no one actually consults the librarians and staff who work there when the place is built. Were it possible I'd have a separate floor for youth, with the teens apart from the kids.

As for banning people -- I've already done it one a case-by-case basis, after checking with the City's legal department. One to whom I've "sent the letter" was earlier banned from the University library. There are city ordinances that prohibit such actions as disturbing the peace by playing your radio VERY loudly, urinating in public, threatening others, and things like that. This step isn't taken lightly, but after oral warnings, more oral warnings, still more oral warnings, a temporary ban...(of course, some of the things bring immediate response, like the guy who was peeing the wall in the foyer -- HE got a ride in a police car).

Even though it's a public library, there is no requirement that staff and patrons have to put up with threats, being screamed at, being hit on, and the rest of the litany that makes up a "hostile work environment."

Is it too much to ask for simple politeness and a voice kept under control? Or do we have to go back to The SILENT Era?

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 10:48 AM

Yes, Greg, but if the parents DON'T help, Rapaire still has the problem.

No, the parents and possibly their offspring have a problem. If there IS a problam.

And they shouldn't look to or expect the Library or Rapaire to solve it for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 10:55 AM

filing systems that you work with your feet are in the early stages of development and not available everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 05:09 PM

I use libraries a lot. I love them! Strangely, I don't think many young people use libraries these days! I know young people don't read for pleasure as in days gone bye, and a lot of study/research can now be done via the internet. And, of course, unlike my days at school, most schools - even primary, have impressive, well-stocked libraries of their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 05:33 PM

wld...*groan*:-)

Rapaire, on a lighter note, how about wearing a sabre to work? (Or whatever is the correct word for one of your swords.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 05:34 PM

"...It seems that not wanting to ban "books," but wanting to ban "people" who have possibly already paid their debt to society, is an intellectual conflict."

Then count me out as an intellectual, because in my book, there *are* some crimes for which the debt you owe can never be paid off. And I think that anyone who had a sense of true horror and sorrow over what they'd done, would actually choose to stay in prison, or right away from society for the rest of their days, rather than make stamp their feet in anger because they got banned from their local library.


"Also I wonder about the policy of not viewing porn sites on the library's computer – is that not freedom of speech denied ?..."


No, it's freedom from perverts in libraries.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:10 PM

"Also I wonder about the policy of not viewing porn sites on the library's computer – is that not freedom of speech denied ?..."

I meam..WHO would look at porn in a library?

Yikes!



I never realised that working in a library involved all these different problems, Rapaire. I think Sidmouth Library has led a very sheltered life, in ocmparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Pedophiles In Public Libraries
From: semi-submersible
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 09:09 AM

Will Fly said:
"Our society doesn't know how to deal with people such as these. If they offend, they go to prison - which does not help to reform them or change their viewpoint."

Since the 1960s there has been some success in learning the best ways to teach sexual offenders the empathy and self-discipline skills they lacked.

A post-release process developed by Mennonites in Ontario since 1994 is one of the most successful at preventing recidivism and is being adopted in the US and UK too. Circles of Support and Accountability (COSA) are small networks of volunteers who help an offender who has completed jail and treatment, to stay on the straight and narrow while making the transition back into the real world outside prison, avoiding the habits and pitfalls that could lead to reoffending. For ordinary criminals and ordinary sex offenders, this may take a few years. Paedophiles may need to be in such a circle for life.

Risk of reoffending drops significantly (e.g "from 50% to 15%") with COSA programs. I'd call it successful if they lowered the risk to the same as background safety level for the population in general. ("Over the last six years [up to fall 2008], the [Quaker] U.K. pilot project has worked with 49 offenders. None have committed a new sexual offense.") Results vary, but are far better than just turning the person loose at the end of his/her sentence. (A 2007 Canadian study of results and rates of reoffence (pdf))

Another huge advantage of this approach is that the public doesn't have to pay much for a Circle of volunteers. An offender is expected to earn his own living and contribute to the community, instead of being detained at great public cost. This frees resources for programs that protect the public.

Google search for similar articles

A 2006 article examining in what ways vilifying sexual offenders may increase the risk to society from them (pdf)


Although I'm a mom, I don't see that banning every convicted sexual offender from entering public libraries would make our children safer. The justice system should be able to impose such conditions case-by-case, but sexual offender registries also include low-risk cases (someone who once "flashed" at a party, teenagers who fooled around with fellow teens, and have grown up in the years since). Even the people who do present a risk are probably better off spending time in a library than somewhere more private with nothing better to do.

You and your staff should be able to flag situations that concern you, though. Perhaps your legislators can put some of their staff onto finding a reasonable way to safeguard civil liberties while reporting potential dangers. It could be hard in a public space to get informed consent and transparency balanced with privacy.