BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: poetlady
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:51 AM

As to what Rick Fielding said, I'm sorry to say, you can't rely on the "angry youth." Most of them couldn't name the Vice President, let alone protest. The majority of the other young people I know have no idea in Hades what's going on. Anyway, protest would probably require getting up off their fat, lazy bums.

I'd rather risk getting blown up by terrorists than be watched over my shoulder all the time, if it really came down to that. What's disturbing is that our government is doing this in the name of freedom. They're going against of everything we say we stand for, in the very name of the ideals they're violating.

Not wanting to be monitored has nothing to do with doing anything wrong, quite the contrary. Most Americans aren't the sort of folks who'd commit any terrorist acts, yet the government wants to watch their every move. I think it is a vast waste of money and resources anyway. Finding terrorists this way will be very difficult because of the sheer volume of the information they'll gather. (That doesn't keep it from being an effective way to harass Arab-Americans or even people someone in the government doesn't like.)

As to Hrothgar's question, I think this will cause a lawsuit or two. We'll just have to see what the Supreme Court does with it. I'd like to think it would be ruled unconstitutional. (Of course, I'd like to think that Americans would never even seriously consider taking measures like this in the first place, so I might be entirely incorrect.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 11:28 AM

Hrothgar, we have a few legal precendents, none of them very hopeful. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court is made up up very political people. The idea of a lifetime appointment is to allow them the freedon to leave political affiliations behind, buit in reality I think they are too infected by the time they've gone through decades of politics to get there.

So in reality, the Supreme Court rarely challenges the other branches of government directly, even though that's their job.

As to those precendents, Lincoln's secret military courts weren't tossed out as unconstitutional for a long time. The internment of Japanese-Americans
wasn't declared unconstitutional until Dec 1944.

So it works sometimes. But not all of these cases gets to the Supreme Court. And until they are actually used against a person, they can't' be challenged. In 1934, striking textile workers were rounded up by the National Guard and placed in internment camps. Then, of course, there's Operation Garden Plot, which is a blueprint for mass-arrests and joint US-Canadian internment camps for civil dissenters.

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 12:15 PM

First they came for the Arabs,
But I did not speak out,
Because I was not an Arab.

Then they came for the civil rights activists,
But I did not speak out,
Because I was not a civil rights activist.

Then they came for the Greens.
But I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Green.

Then they came for me,
And there was no one left to speak for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 12:15 PM

Well, Rev.Bobert , some of us who remember the new National Security "Emergency Powers" plan inspired by the assasination attempt on Reagan AND the rise of MidEast terrorism atlarge written by some whoim were exposed in the Iran/Contra Affair ( Prime architect CIA Dir Willam Casey didn't life to testify ) knew it was comin'. Too tempting to pass up. All that was missing in the 80's was the "digital networking" to carry it out.
Well now Citizen Gate's and Citizen Ballmer's Microsoft have 90% of that network's software and is making substantial headway selling it's "Road Ahead" bill of goods to the Fed Gubment and the Fed's adoption of its OS and future planned eccumenical infrestructure has just been given fresh oxygen.

So are the individualized National Databased tatooed barcodes on the wrist & forehead far off?

Depends how "vigilant " we all bother to be.

Paranoid ?, Nah. This is just standard operating proceedure
when even the appearance of acheiving absolute power " for our own good" comes so close the powers that be can taste it.

Remeber, all that was ever missing was the technology and the oppurtunity. Both have come to pass and now the will to use has just been willingly "voted in ".

They say you don't know what you got till it's gone.
Perhaps Amercia needs the sting of this "Big Chill" to wake it up over what it just willingly gave away.
The problem is, whom will step on their neighbor who speaks out because "I don't want no trouble. Everyone goes along with it and it''s for our collective good so knock it off or so help me I'll turn you in "

Now whom amongst us thinks it "can't happen here"? ;-)

Neither runnin' nor hidin' , but just watching like a hawk ready to sqawk. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 12:26 PM

Hi little... seems you went to town with my little quote... ;^)... I'm sad now that I can not recall the person who coined this gem, but I think it was from revolutionary America in the late 1700s... Taken out of context, it could indeed be used to further fascism, but then again, most of the pithy statements that fascists have used were coopted bits of "out of context"...

I do believe that this little quote is meant to inspire people to stay aware of the potential conflicts around them, and keep freedom's fire burning bright. Naturally, when the big liasons get ahold of the "personal empowerment for individual freedom" constructs, there is trouble ahead for the common man/woman... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 03:07 PM

My point is that this is the green light for other rulers to follow America's lead.

If it can happen in America, where you've got a tradition of resisting over-mighty givernment, and of having entrenched civil liberties, it can happen anywhere. Very easily in this country. Most places don't even have those protections, which are now turning out to be not worth the paper they are written on.

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:04 PM

Yeah, Thomas. Like most great quotes, it can be used either in defence of a great good...or in furtherance of a great evil. This is typical of political rhetoric, and that's why we must look past 30-second sound bites in order to understand what's happening in the world today.

Alas, I don't think the News Media care. They are just entertaining the public in order to sell commercial product, and they are wittingly or unwittingly carrying out Big Brother's propaganda program for him at the same time.

The most desirable state of affairs from the point of view of a military-industrial system is to maintain a constant level of fear, and a constant, but controllable level of combat in distant places with opponents who can't possibly win...but who will provide a convenient "enemy" on which to focus the desired levels of fear. The last thing a military-industrial system wants is the achievement of universal peace, equality, and brotherhood. That would mean the end of them and their System.

That doesn't mean it's impossible...just that they will do almost anything required to prevent it from ever occuring.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: GUEST,a neighbor
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:10 PM

I just think you all ought to know that I'm taking down everything you say.

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Neighmond
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:46 PM

Take your notes, write in your book
Tell them I said their as dumb as they Look!

I they ask you who said so, shout out with glee:
"'tis Chaz, the hillbilly, and he plans to stay FREE!"

If they ask you "Where is he?" then quickly reply:
"On the back roads and highways, preaching 'LIVE FREE or DIE!'"

If they ask you "what does this hillbilly do?"
Tell them "He's blowing the whistle on YOU!"

"And if you come for him I'll not go a'sitting
But kicking and screaming, and fighting and spitting!"

When they as "In whose name, does he say what he'll say?"
Tell them "In the name of the WHOLE U. S. A.!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Neighmond
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 04:50 PM

"Their" should be "they're" in the first stanza.
"as" should be "ask" in the last stanza.

Sorry about that

Chaz

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 05:56 PM

Chaz:

You jus' keep them verses comin', bro.

Yir couz,

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 06:27 PM

Don't be too sorry, whistle a tune
Go for it charley, with eileen aroon
The woods and the meadows make freedom much clearer
Your hilbilly brain is to me so much dearer

The gated soot city, with all it's debris
Has guttered the runoff of dreamier pleas
Which owing to influence all our positions
Such safety for fascists and false inquisitions

Call forth the fighter in freedom uncommon'd
From the strength of the woodlands a wiser man neighmond
For freedom deserts those who will not see forward
In favor of minnions who think when they're ordered

So show us our ways neighmond read us the signs
Stand us right up with your good country twines
Reach into our hearts with encouraging voice
Reminding us all that we still have a choice

And choosing is easy when pushed to the wall
But fighting is harder, long ignoring the call
We stand as united, in strength not assunder
Till corruption and greed turn to gardens of wonder! ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 06:37 PM

Every step of the way this Bush adninistration seems to be doing precisely what Osama Bin Laden and friends would surely want it to do, eroding the kind of things that make people around the world admire America (rather than just envying it for its wealth), and bringing to the fore all those things that go in the opposite direction.

Remember that movie "Invasion of the Bodysnatchers"?

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 08:36 PM

Nice poetry, guys! Poets are usually "subversives" in the eyes of society's watchdogs.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 02 - 10:45 PM

For those of you seeking a more down-to-earth reasonf why the United States prepares itself for war at this time, please see this explanation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 12:50 AM

No, no, Kevin, you have it all wrong. When Arabs or Asians hold people in secret prisons without probable cause, deny them legal counsel, try them by secret military tribunals from which there is no appeal, and keep dossiers on the political activities of their citizens so they can spot dissenters, it's OPPRESSION.

When America does it, it's PROTECTING FREEDOM.

Unless it's Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Israel, in which case it's only a vicious, unsubstantiated rumor.

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 01:11 AM

Some FBI agent has been monitoring the Mudcat. Oh Doug I LOVE IT. Lets keep up all our whacky nonsense and see what conclusions they draw from it.

I'm surprised that our crazy Mudcatter Gargoyle hasn't responded to this. He has the best answer, get yourself an alter ego (or many of them). It it's data they want, let's give it to them lots of it, most of it wrong.

When some one asks for your social security number (or any other info), get it wrong. Just one digit will be enough to throw them off. If anyone takes you to task about this. "Ooh, I can never remember numbers, I must have got it wrong".

Make sure that, whatever information you are asked for, at least some of it is wrong. It's difficult enough to keep good records even if the data is correct. If we all strive to make just one little mistake every time then all of their data will become worthless.

And if they ever get a camera in your bedroom, give 'em a good show.

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 04:34 PM

Bert, those are admirable suggestions. I think you are on the right track.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Neighmond
Date: 23 Nov 02 - 10:42 PM

Thank you, Sir Thomas for encouragement bold
'tis through jesters and bards that truth be told.

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 12:19 AM

Bert: I probably shouldn't let the cat out of the bag, but I have it on pretty good authority (The Guardian) that L. H. is an undercover agent for the FBI. Don't repeat that though, and if you say you got it from me, I'll deny it!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 12:22 AM

Oh, and one more thing, Bert. Bobert is reported to be a dual agent. He is an executive (very high) at General Motors but is an undercover agent for the CIA. Do not pass that along, however.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 12:27 AM

Yeah, well, I have it on good authority that DougR is on the CEHC ((Committee to Elect Hilary Clinton (in 2004)). He is simply trying to make conservatives look bad by advancing spurious arguments on their behalf. For heaven's sake, don't blow his cover if you want to see Hilary back in the White House!!!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 09:27 AM

Come on, Doug, I'm a Ford man. And further more I ain't been "very high" since the 60's.

General Motors... ^$#&*^*^$#*&)*&&%$^$#.... hate Chevys...&^%$%$@&%(&^*$#... danged!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 12:48 PM

I imagine anyone regularly logging on here will be on the blacklist in any case. Consorting with subversive riff-raff - it doesn't look too good.

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 01:35 PM

Maybe everyone will end up on the blacklist. Then we'd finally have achieved a form of human unity on this planet.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 01:39 PM

For those misguided individuals that stroke the 'big brother' wantabees, Orwell's 1984 is a upotian vision. I'm relatively certain that the phrase "How many fingers am I holding up?" brings a squeemish delight into the control freak's fettish! Those of us that insist on calling it as we see it (four fingers you ninny...), tend to be thought of as traitors by the current inquisition... IMHO, these guys need to make enemies, that they might have any self esteem at all... Why the consistant refusal to encourage ANY seriously peaceful solutions... Spying creates suspicion, and suspicious people sometimes try to justify terrible intrusions... that fit into none of the spiritual teachings I've ever found... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 06:13 PM

Arghhhhhhhhh! McGrath! You mean I could be found guilty by association? Arghhhhhhhhhh!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 09:29 PM

Hmmmmmmmm? Let's check on everyone's bank records, telepohone records but if someone wants to buy a couple hundred assault rifles, well, ain't none of our business.

They gonna fight terrorist's or spy on a bunch of folk singers?

Okay, Mr. Poindexter and Mr. Ridge, here's what you've been waiting for!!!!

Umm, MY FELLOW CATTERS (sorry to yell...)! Mr. Poindexter and Mr. Ridge want to know if any of you people are terrorists. You know, like written a check, or have a telephone. Hey, that basement full of assault rifles and the 40,000 round of ammo don't mean a thing, so don't worry about 'em. But now... ahhh, folks with telephones???? Hmmmm? That's a different story...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 12:21 AM

Ok, Bobert. I confess. I am NOT a terrorist.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 03:55 AM

Doug, you're associating with them. That's just as good.

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:05 AM

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:32 AM

Well, danged, that's "1" non-terrorist Catter! Any others? Hey, don't be afraid to step up *just* 'cause you own a phone. Owning a phone does not *automatically* make you a terrorist not more than an arsonal in the basement makes you a pacifist...

Or something like that?

Actaully , I'm kinda liking Admiral Poindexter keepin' an eye on my checkbook and sent him an email askin' him to notify me if I my balance got too low since I have free checking if I maintain a certain balance. Yeah, I'm likin' this more and more.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Spy cameras in your bedroom?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 25 Nov 02 - 11:37 AM

The problem I see , that some obviously have missed so far , is the potential for abuse by "The Party in Power" to use this system to make sure that they "stay" in power . Nixon used domestic intelligence gathering resources to dig up so-called "private" info
( meidacl records ,IRS records,etc ) on what he considered as his *personal* political adversaries.
Question: D'ya think John Pointdexter doesn't have a few folks he'd just love to delivr "paybacks" to since he was convinced he was being *ideologically correct* and sees those that undid what heand dead CIA director Willaim Casey set out to acheive as "unpatriotic".

Gee, d'ya think one can imagine a world where you could be denied a loan, a viable credit history, a job position, a job with said firm entirely ,etc. via "the network" if you were reported , unbeknownst to you, that you were heard to dare to criticize the legacy of Ronald Reagan ; especially after his imminent passing.
To all of those of Right-wing Republican persusion; I *do* harbor a rather striking sense of foreboding for life in a *One Party Federal Government* ( Supreme Court packing is next )
when Reagan is *officially Canonized* and woe be to those who would continue any expression of *free speech* that wpould dare to sully the *official legacy* as the history books are *oficially updated*.

Think it can't happen here.
Thnks to C-Span, I have already seen the unabashed self-avowed Right-wing Reagan-worship advocate ; one Grover Norquist who wont rest until Reagan's likeness is added to nothing less than Mt. Rushmore. Those whom did *not* witness the vehemence with which the Republican-controlled Congress
( 1994-2001 ) fought and won to have Washingtoon National Airport have its name *officially* changed ,by fiat, to Ronald Reagan National Airport . If you did not witness the self-righteous
political posturing of the pro-speeches then you have literally *no* idea what the right-wing of the Republican party will do next once they use their One Part supremacy to then go on to control the Supreme Court.
Expect a lot of Constitutional Admendments promoted which means, if any one of them gins national traction, would cause to convene a Constitutional Convention where *all* proposed amendments would be put on the docket.
Know that without the "balance" of decenting control of atleast one house of Congress the Republican Revolution of Newt Gingrich's Congress attempted several times a Constitutional Admendment for "Prayer in Schools" , "Balanced Budget" requirement *except* during *National Emergencies* like we are in now , " Federal Crime to Burn the american Flag ".

Be vigilant or be afraid, be very afraid. ;-)
Watching 'em like a hawk and comin' out sqawkin'