BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:12 AM

"Is it not irresponsible to put herself in such a legally "grey" area? "

Most of us never really know what that grey area is until it's too late and a crime is done against us. It then becomes a grey area.

If we never entered grey areas I doubt we would ever do much for we never know what is truly going to happen to us.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:14 AM

Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:22 AM

I think most women know that, and take the appropriate precautions.

Of course none of this EXCUSES the crime ...please dont repeat that as it was what I meant.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:23 AM

That should read.....as if it was what I meant ...sorry:0)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area"

So is parking your car in a new area, Ake, but I have vener heard that plea in mitigation for taking without consent.

I have to qualify I fail to see why acting foolishly should be punished by rape! There is one instance. If we vote for this government to continue we deserve to get shafted...

Sorry. Bad taste, but I couldn't resist it.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

"Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area""

There seems to be an underlying premise in this line of resoning that, if you doi get in bed with a stranger, you deserve all you get That undercurrent is totally wrong and points to being judgemental

If you get in bed with a guy and you have no condoms between you and you proceed to sex, then end up with an STI or being pregnant, one could suggest it serves you right for not being more responsible. That said you could use a condom and still end up pregnant. I'll go that far. BUT what it does not mean is that he has a right to Rape you. Grey area or not. Being in the grey should not ever justify rape. There is no onus on the victim. THe perpetrator is wholly responsible.

(and I am only talking about acquaintance type rapes here)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:30 AM

Of course the point I have been trying to make, is that in this life, we all at some time have to bear some of the responsibility for what happens to us.

We shouldn't walk out on the motorway blind drunk, nor get into bed with a stranger drunk or sober.

That is not excusing the crime, but it is simply having a responsible attitude to ones own safety.....physically and legally.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:31 AM

Bad taste or not, there is a point to be made...

"If we vote for this government to continue we deserve to get shafted..."

There is an element of consent there in that by voting for them we know what will happen to us.

If I know a man to be a serial rapist and I then go to his house and get in bed...

I think the difference is significant.

Do we deserve still to get 'shafted' to use your term?

We all make mistakes. Some never learn from theirs

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:34 AM

But surely you also know that going to bed with a stranger..drunk, increases your chances of being raped, many times

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM

"That is not excusing the crime, but it is simply having a responsible attitude to ones own safety.....physically and legally. "

So what difference does it make to being raped?

You are still edging toward putting some onus on the victim for getting raped. That is where it becomes a fallcious argument. Being silly does not equate to being responsible for or deserving rape.

By repeatedly pointing about resposibility you seem to be implying that with rape victims then do take some of the blame. Can you see how that is occurring? NOTHING mitigates rape. End of.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM

True, MP, true.

I don't think we will get any further just by restating what we have already said over and over again. ake. How about we just leave it at we disagree whther the issue of the victims foolishness should be brought to bear, legaly or morally, in the case of rape. At the end of the day, as the high proportion of acquitals shows, the law is indeed on your side. All I am saying is that I find it unfair but my opinion matters very little when it comes to the judiciary!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:45 AM

Actualy - you know what I have just realised. For the first time. as far as I know, our resident supporter of minority causes is, in fact, in the majority. If 75%+ of rape cases result in acquital then the bias is defintely pro-man. Yet we are being told that us men get a rough deal when it comes to rape legislation. Maybe I should change sides! I'm not used to being a minority. Help!

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:55 AM

"our resident supporter of minority causes"

To whom do you refer ake?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

"To whom do you refer ake?"

Apologies...

I meant "to whom do you refer DeG?"

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:54 AM

Without attempting to read through the whole 440-odd posts that this already extends to, I read this article ere I ever saw this post. If what I say only repeats points already made, my apologies. Nevertheless,

"Some rape victims should take blame"

That is not what I recall reading.

"they should accept some responsibility"

THAT is almost what I read.

A sickness of the modern world is the abrogation of responsibility. Everything is "My rights"; nothing is "my duty". Everything must be someone's fault; yet nothing, seemingly, could ever be "my" fault. And fault itself is an on/off state - blame can never be shared. Either it's my fault (of course it's not my fault; how dare you suggest such a thing!), or it's your fault (of course it's your fault; how dare you suggest otherwise!). No grey areas.

The first few posts imply, perhaps accidentally, just such a state of affairs. Pink's comment, "a great many women actually go [to bed] for kisses and cuddles.... it can happen in a bed too. Are they to be raped for it? Lots of women are looking for loving even when they may appear to be being sexual."

Let me turn that around. "Lots of men are looking for sex, even when they may appear to be loving." Why is it that the man is automatically blamed for any misunderstanding between the sexes? It's really not rocket science. Communication requires at least two parties involved. When communication becomes confused, both parties must examine their own role. It [b]cannot[/b] be acceptable to say "My actions must be beyond reproach; it [b]must[/b] be your fault". Whether we speak of rape or anything else, surely this is so?
"Date rape using drugs is an offence. Is alcohol not a drug?"
"Date rape using drugs" implies the unwilling consumption of said drugs. Alcohol? First, define "drug"; second, prove that the consumer bears no responsibility for their own actions (note: no gender specified here)..

Ake's comment, the 5th of the thread, sums things up quite nicely. Blanket statements about such matters are unwise. Everyone is capable of making mistakes. Whether someone is superficially an assailant or a victim, this still remains true! Blame? Start thinking of it as a sliding scale that is rarely anything more than a muddled grey. Black & white is rarely a given.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:55 AM

*Ack* 410-odd posts...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:56 AM

PM sent MP.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 01:17 PM

I don't understand the connection that some people wish to draw between women behaving foolishly before a real rape, and a false rape claim. As if they proved something, or one had something to do with the other other than that they both involve sex and contain the word "rape". What's up with that, guys?

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM

DeG - if you vote for the conservatives you had better grab your ankles and grease your fundament, because the old Etonians will do what they have always done.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:50 PM

I deleted the last several posts from this thread because they were just puerile name-calling. Please stick to the topic of discussion.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:52 PM

Yaaaaaaay Joe! And I was worried you were... not here anymore... ;-) My apologies, but you know what I'm like (if you remember, anyway).

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:53 PM

"But surely you also know that going to bed with a stranger..drunk, increases your chances of being raped, many times"

By this logic, being in bed with a stranger sober is less dangerous.

Or being in bed drunk with someone you know is less dangerous.

Or being out in public drunk - or sober - is less dangerous.


In fact, there is one and only one factor which puts you in danger of being raped ...

... it is whether you are with a rapist or not.


In which case the circumstances, including fashion sense, state of drunkenness and location are of minimal significance.


If someone, of their own free will, says they would like a shag, then the can be said to have consented.

If someone says no then they cannot be said to have consented.

If someone is drunk and sleepy, then a man with an eye for the bleeding obvious will have little trouble noticing that they aren't gagging for coitus.

If someone in thius state gives no consent, then there is no indication that there was any reason for sex to happen except as a result of the rapists opportunism.

There are no grey areas.



Where there were only two people present and we cannot be sure wht actually happened and what was actually consented to or not is a different matter.

That would be about finding out what actually happened.

If we found out that she said no or was too drunk and sleepy to either say yes or to stop him, then we know she was raped.

Again, none of this has any bearing on whether or not a rape victim is responsible for the crime committed against her.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

"our resident supporter of minority causes"

Women are not a minority.

Duh!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:06 PM

"There are no grey areas."

Your black & white world must be... very different from the one that I inhabit. I'm not saying that I could not hear a "No". But you too glibly dismiss too many things, and are too ready to attribute blame.

Which way it suits you to attribute that blame, I am indifferent to; mostly I object to the fact that you will blindly point the finger. People are people, and when things go wrong, people are at fault. Male, female, assailant, victim; these things are, all too often, not clear cut.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:12 PM

"Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area" "


No.


You accuse others of playing with words.


Yet you are playing a childish witless wordgame with "responsible"


Being responsible for your own safety has nothing to do with being responsible for a crime.


Mixing the two concepts up shows nothing but ignorance of the meaning of the word in those two COMPLETELY seperate contexts.


This Thread is about judgemental women who blame other women for being raped saying "they brought it on themselves"


Your pathetic pseudo intellectual fiddle faddling with the word responsible is meaningless and adds nothing except a substanceless puff of doubt as to who is to blame in a rape.



By your logic, women who are raped in the workplace by their powerful boss are responsible for the rape by putting themselves in an environment where they can easily be blackmailed.

By your logic, a women would therefore be bringing it on herself by going to work and must take the blame.


Note - I did not say you think that, I said that your argument would support that view - and this indicates that there is a flaw in your argument.

Namely, you misunderstand the difference between personal responsibility and criminal responsibility.

I believe you misunderstand intentionally as it suits your worldview which is consistently reactionary.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:21 PM

Who are "you" talking to? I assume it's not me; equally I don't know who you think you are being offensive to (quite clearly, that's what you intend). Your use of the word "responsible" is no more responsible than that of whoever you are challenging. Responsible is NOT an on/off state.

"I believe you misunderstand intentionally as it suits your worldview..."

I suggest you take a *very* close look at that statement - you may be as guilty as whoever it is you accuse.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:22 PM

Raedwulf.

Let me clarify.

There are no grey areas when it comes to consent.

Lets say I misunderstand what a girl means ...

Lets say I believe she wants to have sex when she actually doesn't ...

In that Instance, I might make an honest mistake.

But I then have to try and have sex with her.

If you have ever had sex, you may remember that this is a process which involves the removal of clothes, and then a certain amount of jostling for position and other necessary physical requirements like engorgement of genitalis and lubrication etc.

And that is a very simplified aand reduced picture.

It would be impossible during this process not to become aware of whether a woman was consenting to sex.


Men who rape know they are raping.

It does not happen by accident, remote control, or without the knowledge and intent of the rapist.

In rape, it is a black and white issue.


The only problem for the oursider is knowing, without witnesses, what actually did happen.

But that is a seperate issue.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:25 PM

Raedwulf,

You asked:

"who are you talking to"

The clue is in the quote at the top of my post.

The person who I quoted was clearly not you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:58 PM

I'd bang my head on the desk.. but it wouldn't achieve anything useful.

"The person who I quoted was clearly not you." Well, eff me, didn't I say I didn't think it wasn't? And what is so hard about making it clear who EXACTLY it is you are responding to? It's a big thread; 420+ posts; maybe it'd be a good idea to make things clear? Some people do come to things late after all. I *think* you may be responding to Ake. But I'm not absolutely certain because I'm trying to engage in the thread without having to wade through every single post in it. I'm sure I bear some culpability in that, but you can understand why, yes? ;-) Nevertheless, my point about your language remains the same - you are being deliberately offensive toward "whoever" the opposition is. It might be emotionally satisfying (mea culpa!), but it doesn't prove anything, however much you may wish it to.

As to "There are no grey areas when it comes to consent", I have no personal experience of the scenario you describe. I do have some experience of the weird & wonderful ways in which two people can interpret the same event, and describe the same situation. I even have some experience of the different ways in which ONE individual can describe an event at different intervals.

If you think the the world is sufficiently B&W to sustain your point of view, good luck to you. In my experience, it is NOT. Since my experience is very real to me, I object to being told it is not. Hence, I am happy to see shades of grey, and to allow others their greys, even if I do not see the shades they do. I object to being told that my grey is not real. If you see what I mean.

Unfortunately, your declarations are not as sustainable as either of us might wish them to be.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:07 PM

no one should be raped , I am a father of a girl who ....
and this is a soul murder.....this will follow her for the rest of her live urrrrrrrrrrr and this touch me alot ....it hurts ...
and you may know that if I had it in me I would have done something
horrible to that man , but I did not ..being on the same level
as that man is not going to take this back .

...
enough.....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:12 PM

My declarations about the actaul physical prerequisites for sex to take place are concrete.

1. You need to remove clothes.

2. you need to ne in a position that makes penetration possible.

3. In consensual sex, the female is engorged.

4. In consensual sex the female is awake.


The human body is a big heavy thing that takes strength to undress and move around if it is not being cooperative. In addition, the Vagina in its non-engorged state is extremely constricted and would take an determined and violent effort to penetrate.


These are concrete physical obstacles to sex with a non consenting female, be she either comatose or fighting back.


These physical realities combined make it very clear that a rapist must be determined, ruthless and coldblooded in the execution of their crime.


My statement stands that men who rape know they are raping.

As for all your comments on the subject of me and what you have to teach me about myself, You have clearly decided, after appearing out of the blue, to take up an adversarial stance against me, and to make character judgements about me after having engaged wwith me on two or three posts.


On reflection, It is you who are making unsustainable claims.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:14 PM

Last post directed at Raedwulf

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:33 PM

I will add one more thing.

Nowhere do i espouse a philosophy that the world is black and white.

Nowhere do I espouse the view that there are no shades of grey in life.


The very essence of the dea that there can be shades of grey in life includes the idea that sometimes things are black and white.


For example, on a black and white tiled floor.

Maybe the white tiles are dirty, and maybe the black tiles are dusty, but we know when we are on a black tile and when we are on a white one, and we know there is no grey tile seperating them.


Another example is in the case on consensual/non consensual sex.

You know when its consensual because you are given consent, and this consent is reflected in a womans words, in her actions and in her state of arousal.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:56 PM

right... *wades back into thread pulling up sleeves*

raewulf, welcome to the thread, it is a long thread and things have been said numerous times, but having butted in on another long thread without reading back i know how you feel!
let me repeat my self, for your benefit.

i have been raped.
i got into bed, with no intention of having sex, he knew that as was indicated by the fact that apart fom my trousers and shoes, i was dressed. that and the rapist in question knows i am gay.
i had known him awhile, had mutual friends, and had been in his house before but not stayed over.

lox is completely right, there are certain things that need to happen before a man and woman can have sex. in my case, and thats all i can draw on here, HE ripped off my underwear. i tried to cover myself and had my hands held, while he....

as if that wasn't enough of a signal that i didn't want to, while..... i kept saying i didn't want it!

now apart from trusting the wrong person, by getting into bed, to sleep, which i have done before and since. what happened was NOT my fault!

sorry to anyone reading this that feels uncomfortable and it is too much, but folks that say that there any excuses for rape need to understand, BEFORE anything happens to them or someone they love.
as skarpi knows, you don't have to experiance something first hand to be able to empathise.

whether drunk, aroused, angry or frustrated, there is no excuse.

it doesn't make me feel dirty anymore, just angry. not at HIM strangely, but those here that can't or won't see that a woman is NEVER to blame for being raped.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:36 AM

Jeddy's unhappy experience, for which I have the utmost sympathy, clearly falls far on what one might call "the wrong side of the line".

~~ But saying this surely implies that there is such a line ~ & not just a line, but a "grey area" ~ of disputable width perhaps, but of undoubted existence.

Am I alone in detecting a somewhat rebarbative self-righteousness in the posts of those on these threads who are so pertinaciously denying the very existence of such a 'line' or 'grey area', of whatever width it may be held to be?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:54 AM

To elaborate a little on that last post of mine:~ There may well be occasions when the woman did not actually resist the man's arousal techniques, did not verbally express reluctance, permitted penetration tho without active encouragement. Then, next day, regretted that the intercourse had occurred, remembered that she had, tho being somewhat passive, not actually given positive consent. And then been led by these regrets to make an accusation of rape on the grounds that she had not positively consented ~ this accusation being made in what at this stage appeared to her as good faith, and not as any sort of vindictive false accusation.

I consider the above to be a perfectly possible putative scenario; and one moreover which would definitely represent a "grey area" of the sort which some of the more positive asserters on this thread keep insisting does not exist and cannot possibly exist.

Would any of such care to challenge such a"grey-area" identification?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Royston
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 04:35 AM

MtheGM, you describe a situation where a woman effectively consents to sex and then changes her mind.

That is a situation in which a woman is NOT raped. That is nothing to do with the title of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:12 AM

Royston ~ Your word "effectively" is, in my judgment, equivocal and tendentious here ~ so I will obviously remain in disagreement with the concluding couple of sentences of your reply. She thinks, retrospectively but in good faith, that she did not consent, so that, she thinks, she WAS raped. So it has everything to do...

Who agrees with my assessment of such a situation as I have rubricated; or who thinks Royston's (to my mind and I speak purely IMO obviously) unconsidered and perverse knee-jerk dismissal of it, justified?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Royston
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:14 AM

No, M, you describe consent (passive or otherwise) followed by a change of the mind, a regret.

That is not rape.

That is nothing to with the the title of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:16 AM

"now apart from trusting the wrong person, by getting into bed, to sleep, which i have done before and since. what happened was NOT my fault!"

jeddy, I'm a little confused.

Do you mean that you have put yourself at risk of possibly the same thing happening to you again by putting yourself into that exact same situation once more, but with a different person?

Please don't misunderstand me, I am in no way blaming you for what happened originally, but I'm just concerned as to why you may be willing to risk it happening again.

If I have misunderstood what you meant there, then I apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:25 AM

I have not denied there being possible grey areas in some scenarios. Most are extremely worrisome, for both parties, given the scenario you make MtheGM.

Personally, while I can see that she has not positively consented, she made no attempts at resistance either. How would the man have any clue without always asking, is it now okay for us to proceed to penetration? What a passion killer that would be, albeit a sensible request.

Very often people will be in a situation where no sex is the purpose of a kiss and a cuddle. But with that comes the lighted fires of passion for both and they progress. Things happen and go forward and, with no actual requests to have sex, they proceed to have intercourse. No implicit permissions have been given by either party. They werr both agreeable to it continuing by their very own actions. No resistance from either. If she later thinks "Wait a moment, he never actually asked me if I wanted that, so ikt must be rape" I think she is wrong. I do not think him a rapist either.

With no force or no refusal how can it be rape? This suggests that rape may not just be about consent per se, but also showing some actual refusal to having sex. One could argue if she dos not say no and is a willing party to the sex then that is the case. A retro "I never gave permission even though I enjoyed it and wanted it" would not be rape I think.

Of course each individual case is different and each has to be taken on merit. But in your scenario, given she was a willing party and only after some thought remembered she gave no actual consent, he has not raperd her. How could he know? The only thing that would stop that is to make it law to ask immediately before penetration... is it okay to proceed?

Even then you will get cases where she wants him to stop. If she states that and he carries on, then it is rape. But retroactive accusations of willing parties I suspect the courst would stay clear of.

Acquaintance rapes must come in all sorts of situations. There are massive grey areas I think. But the charge of rape, while not fully bound on consent, would then at least have to rely on sone refusal. Refusal then invokes the removal of any possible consent so it would not have to be said.

My head hurts...

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:35 AM

Lizzie wrote "Do you mean that you have put yourself at risk of possibly the same thing happening to you again by putting yourself into that exact same situation once more, but with a different person?"

I am of the opinion that we must trust Jeddy to be able to judge for herself what she does and who with. What happened her was terrible but she needs to pick up the pieces and get on with life. Seems to me that is what she has done. Allowing what happened her to stop her staying with friends and having a social life actually allows the power to stay with the rapist. By getting on with it and returning to her normal routines she is effectively lessening his effects, and therfore power, over her. She is to be commended. I am not sure I could do the same.

I would liken it to someone who has had a bad crash in a car on ice. Does that mean they should never ever get in a car again and drive when it is icy?

Jeddy got back in the saddle, it sounds like, and I think she has done well to do so. How brave and empowering I hope it is for her. She trusted someone Lizzie who let her down. She got raped by the betrayal of that trust.

How marvellous that she can still treat people with trust and get on with her life. She should not have to answer nor justify her continuance in normal life in my opinion

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:41 AM

Yes, not all of us act as though all men are potential rapists.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:09 AM

Thank you, mp. Royston I don't think your denial of the existence of such a thing as a 'grey area' will really stand up, you know. I still think your gloss on my scenario is a 'mind made up so don't confuse me' sort of reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:12 AM

Consent requires a state of mind. If a person is incapable of forming an intention then they cannot consent, but drunken consent is still consent.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM

In general an intention can be inferred from action or inaction, but not conclusively, and subject of course to statute.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:23 AM

if you vote for the conservatives...

No issue with that, Richard, but I would substiture conservative with 'any of the bastards'. Trouble is, whoever you vote for, the government always get in:-( However, moving on...

Can someone explain to me this 'grey area' in terms of was consent given or not; was the victim raped or not and was the accused guilty or not. While I fully accept that circumstances may differ and there may be, in certain circumstances, mitigation I do not see how it fits in with rape. I can see that a murder may be commited in self defence or due to extreme fear. I can see how theft may be commited due to abject poverty. But in what circumstances is the desire to have sex life-threatening?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:34 AM

I agree, mp, jeddy doesn't have to answer. I wasn't meaning it in a cimpulsory sort of way, more kind of thinking out loud.

"Consent requires a state of mind. If a person is incapable of forming an intention then they cannot consent, but drunken consent is still consent."

Then.......is it not best for women to stop the out of control drinking and alcohol abuse that's happening at present? Or am I looking at this wrongly again.....

Does Richard's statement there, bearing in mind he's a lawyer, not scream out to women, and all those who care about them, that personal responsibity should be paramount in certain situations?

(And again, just to clarify, I am NOT talking about women who are raped through no fault of their own, stone cold sober, innocently going about their daily business)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:35 AM

Oops....'compulsory'

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:42 AM

M the MG, the senario you describe ( sorry if this wasn't you but someone else, my memory is not my strongest attributte) is clearly not rape. it is regret, i wish we haven't done that last night.
if no force has been used either phyisical, or by incapcitation. then it cannot be rape. consent doesn't always have to be verbal. even if she doesn't take the leading role, but makes things easier for him by willing opening her legs makes her a part of what is happening. regretting something then changing her mind after the fact, still does not change what it was at the time.
i HATE women who do that! they are dangerous, not only to the man/men in question but to those of us who have been raped or assulted.

i want to say thanks to mp and cs for their support and their understanding. it means alot to me!

i don't have to explain anything, in fact i didn't have to say anything at all. it saddens me to think that people will always blame the innocent. if not blame then certainly think well she was there, so in part she desrved it.
i have told you all the things i have, not for your sympathy, but understanding. not for me but for the other women this has happened to that cannot get over it, or who are still going through the trauma.

let me explain what happed straight after, it might explain how i think about it.

i was only llowed out once i was dressed, he took the key out of the front door. i raced to the nearest phone box to call the police, i arranged to meet them by some shops a few streets away.
while i was waiting, a van that looked like his, turned up, i ran, someone (i think it was HIM) started to chase me, so i ran.
i ended up banging on someones door, i saw lights on and the tv flickering. i ahve no idea what road it was or who there were. i was lucky! they were a decent couple who phoned the police for me.

now i look back, i see that was a really stupid thing to do, i was scared out of my wits and was very open to more abuse. however, had something else happened it still wouldn't have been my fault, just a scared girl, in the wrong place.
the fault is always with the person who forces someone.

as for trusting others men afterwards, i had one extremely bad experiance, but that didn't cancel out all the good men i knew. in fact as i was asleep, the man tried it on, but took no for an answer the first time i said it. i wanted comfort and to feel safe, he understood that and was really good after i turned him down, i was crying and he held me. i didn't do it again after that but that was by choice, not because i was scared to.
i hope that by telling you these things, you show more compassion to others.
most things in life are not black and white. in cases of violence, sexual assult and rape, the aggressor is always in the wrong.
for violence i am not talking one hit and walking away. but the sort that is on the news pretty much constantly.

if the things i have said have changed anyones mind, or made them think abit, then i am happy.