Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?

Subject: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 15 May 00 - 03:47 PM

Tried to find any songs, preferably done in a church-y style, that are about not worshipping any gods at all. All I came up with was a very interesting thread on Music, Politics and the Mudcat, and a few mentions of atheism here and there in other threads. I know there are songs comparing gods, I liked the DoorKnockers one (I've seen it on a Tshirt), but can't find anything about not worshipping any god. Anyone know any?

Also, I should mention, that I'm really looking for songs promoting, rather than against, atheism. However, anti- would be fine too.

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: sophocleese
Date: 15 May 00 - 04:10 PM

Well Mrr. its not quite what you were looking for but I thought thios might interest you I lifted it from the Private Eye Online page because it was easier than blue-clicking.

"The Council hereby grants permission for a weekly prayer call to be sung from the mosque of the World Islamic Mission in Oslo. The prayer call, or azan, will be allowed once every Friday, at midday, and the chant of 'God is Great' must last no longer than three minutes. "The Council also notes that a demonstration by members of the Heathen Society was held in Oslo last Saturday, protesting against the possibility that the weekly prayer call might be allowed. Therefore, in the interests of balance, permission is hereby also granted for the Heathen Society to chant 'There is no God' outside the mosque at five minutes before midday each Friday. This chant must also last no longer than three minutes. "By order, Old Town Council, Oslo." (Norway Post, 29/3/00. Spotter: Stedman)

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Wavestar
Date: 15 May 00 - 04:25 PM

I can't think of any church-y style songs that would promote aetheism, Mrr, but I can think of some recent popular songs that do.... Other than the screaming, shouting metal death ones, and NIN (Heresy, etc...) Sarah McLaughlin, Dear God certainly advocates atheism...

I'm sure Mbo and others can nthink of more...

-J

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Escamillo
Date: 15 May 00 - 04:30 PM

The only "churchy" godless hymns I've heard (and sang) are not folk but classical, inspired in medieval (and banned) profanity : Karl Orff's CARMINA BURANA is a cantata composed in 1937 on the basis of authentic poems dealing with carnal pleasure, wine, gambling and everything known to be good in medieval times. Some of the songs and dances could be adapted to pop and result in a pleasant surprise in a folk/pop concert. The melodies are simple and beautiful.
Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Jed at Work
Date: 15 May 00 - 04:33 PM

Godless Hymns? Sounds to me like fat-free motor oil!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Escamillo
Date: 15 May 00 - 04:59 PM

Jed, one of the songs says (approximately)
Yes I am, yes I am..
the Abbot of Cucania (a fantasy land of dissolution)
and my council are that of drinkers
.. and who looks for me
at the Tavern in the evening
will find himself naked in the morning
crying loudly "Oh, Fortune !!
Stupid goddess, what you've done ?
Our lives you ruined ! ahh!"

This would be something like a moral-free priest !:)

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From:
Date: 15 May 00 - 05:01 PM

check out "The Preacher and the Slave" in the database. i think many of the early labor movement songs might fit your description

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 May 00 - 05:06 PM

Confusing Grace, how rich, how rare Each day we live, we learn And render daily all our prayer To Whom it may Concern

(Unitarian Gospel)

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 May 00 - 05:11 PM

All I can think of is to suggest that you find some tunes that were originally secular, but have now become known as "churchy", and then write your own words to them. I think the problem in finding them is that atheists are more likely to be diverse, and less likely to come together in bunches to sing that sort of thing than members of religious groups.What do you want to say? Our humanists in Britain are most notable for writing scathing letters to the papers slagging off the more ridiculous positions of the religious. (Church School bans Harry Potter, for example.) We seldom see what they do believe about human behaviour.

Second thoughts - try the French Revolution - or other writings of that period.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Mbo
Date: 15 May 00 - 05:16 PM

Sorry, Wavestar...if I have heard them, I'd have probably forgotten them very soon afterward.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 May 00 - 05:55 PM

I think there's a negative, antireligious tone to the term "Atheism." If atheisim exists simply to deny the beliefs of those are religious, then it is a creed that essentially negative and destructive in nature. I don't think the atheists I know are like that - they're very positive, good people who just don't believe in God. They tolerate my religious beliefs quite well, and they share many ethical views with me. The idea of "secular humanism" and the practices of the ethical societies seem to typify the atheists I know.
A couple types of music that might fit the description of "humanist" music are the union and civil rights songs that were fashioned from old-time gospel songs. We had quite a discussion of those songs in this thread (click).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 May 00 - 05:59 PM

Joe - they were the sort of atheists I was thinking of - I just couldn't imagine them singing about it. Actually, there are quite a few "hymns" in our school hymnbook which do not mention God at all, and could be seen as atheist - last week we sanf "The Ink is Black" for example. Would those do?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 May 00 - 06:00 PM

Actually, we sang them.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 00 - 08:13 PM

The best modern hymns - though he, for good reasons, prefers to call them "carols" - I would say, are those made by Sydney Carter. And the interesting thing about many of them are that they take a very agnostic stance.You can read them several ways, and sing them from a range of different views about the world we live in.

For example you have Friday Morning, where the song is in the voice of one of the thieves crucified alongside Jesus:

It was on a Friday morning
they took me from the cell,
and I saw they had a carpenter
to crucify as well.
You can blame it on to Pilate,
you can blame it on the Jews,
you can blame it on the Devil,
it's God I accuse.
It's God they ought to crucify
instead if you and me
I said to the carpenter
a-hanging on the tree.

Or George Fox, for that matter:

With a book and a steeple
with a bell and a key
they would bind it forever
but they can't, said he.
For the book it will perish
and the steeple will fall
but the light will be shining
at the end of it all.
Old leather breeches, shaggy shaggy locks,
Old leather breeches, shaggy shaggy locks,
with your Old leather breeches,
and your shaggy shaggy locks
you are pulling down
the pillars of the world, George Fox.

Subject: Lyr Add: OLD TIME RELIGION (filk version) ^^^
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 15 May 00 - 08:40 PM

I'd have to agree with Joe. I would probably choose What A Wonderful World, but I'd be just as happy singing beautiful hymns, as I did before Easter when I sang Faure's Requiem.

There are many, many sites around with hundreds of verses to Gimme That Old Time Religion, many of them separated into various conventional creeds and paganism. Here is a very small sample:

OLD TIME RELIGION-----a filk song

REFRAIN after each verse (if you can stand it!)
GIVE ME THAT OLD TIME RELIGION,
GIVE ME THAT OLD TIME RELIGION,
GIVE ME THAT OLD TIME RELIGION,
THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME!



There are people into voodoo
there are people into voodoo
I know, I know, I hope that you do,
it's good enough for me.

There will be a lot of lovin'
When we're gathered in our coven
With your pushin' and your shovin',
so there'll be room enough for me.

We shall worship with the Druids
Drinking strange fermented fluids
RUNNING NAKED THROUGH THE WOO-OODS,...
and that's good enough for me.

There's an opera written for us
We all join in the chorus
It's an opera 'bout Boris,
and it's.....

With your trusty old Althame
You can blast a double whammy
Or slice and dice a whammy
which is .....

Well, she raised an awful flurry
When she made the scholars worry.
Thank the gods for Margaret Murray!!!
It's good......

Let us go and worship Hermes;
Got a staff that crawls with wormies
That could knock out all the germies,
He's good.....
Well, there's one thing that I do know,
(insert someone's name) favorite is Juno,
'Cause she's awfully good at...you know,
And that's ......

It was good enough for Sapho
With her lady on her lap-oh
She put Lesbos on the map-oh
with her pagan poetry

Meeting at the witching hour
By the bud and branch and flower
Folks are raising up the power
That's where I want to be.

Let us gather in our saunas
When The Spirit comes upon us
To perform the rites of faunas,
That's good enough.....

We went off to worship Venus.
And by gosh you should have seen us!
Now the clinic has to screen us.
But, she's good enough for me.

We will pray to Aphrodite
Even tho' she's rather flighty
And they say she wears no nightie,
And that's good .....

We will pray with those Egyptians
Build our pyramids to put our crypts in
Cover subways with inscriptions,
And that's ......

Oh, Old Odin we will follow
And in fighting we will wallow
"Til we wind up in Valhallooooo,
And that's good enough.....

Let me follow dear old Buddha
For there is nobody cuter
He comes in plastic, wood or pewter,
And that's......

We will pray with Zarathrustra
Pray just like we usta
I'm a Zarathrustra booster.....
And that's good .....

Hare Krishna gets a laugh on
When he sees me dressed in Saffron
With my hair that's only half-on,
Oh, he's good.....

I'll rise early in the morning
When the sun gives me a warning
That the solar age is dawning,...
Well, that's good. ^^^

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,franz
Date: 16 May 00 - 06:36 AM

I'm not sure if this is what you want, but maybe Nash's "Cathedral Song" or Randy Newman's "God Song" will do.

franz

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 16 May 00 - 07:36 AM

The song that comes to mind is RotherSingaDonSong which is a tribute to the workers of South Yorkshire sung to the tune of the hymn Jesus Christ is Risen Today. As a folk chorus we tend to sing it like a hymn with the concentina sounding a bit like an organ accompaniment.

On the subject of songs for Athiests ( or secular Hummanists if you prefer). I always found it difficult when I stopped believing in God when I was about 11/12. I thought it terribly hypocritical to sing hymns in assemby. Teachers tend not to accept that you are not singing on as a matter of principal. I've got over that and tend to sing to appreciate a good tune. I also sing a weddings etc because you are then doing it for your friends. I suppose any songs that about generally looking after your fellow man are hummanist songs. What about some of Burns - A Man's a Man for all that.

All the best

Julie

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 16 May 00 - 08:15 AM

Only remember the chorus, someone fill in the details?:

I don't believe in miracles,

Don't believe that's true, One life, one fight, one little dance, and that's you,

I don't believe in fairy tales, don't believe in lies,

You don't need to fly, just have to try, and that's all you do...

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 16 May 00 - 10:59 AM

All, thanks for the song suggestions, I especially like the one posted by John in Brisbane, even if it isn't "on point" exactly, it's great! Post more, everyone!

But Joe, I feel obliged to reply to your para which I repeat here:
I think there's a negative, antireligious tone to the term "Atheism." If atheisim exists simply to deny the beliefs of those are religious, then it is a creed that essentially negative and destructive in nature. [...] The idea of "secular humanism" and the practices of the ethical societies seem to typify the atheists I know.
When I meant Atheist, I meant a(NO - not "anti", which is "against")-the(GOD)-ist(BELIEVER) = One Who Believes There Is No God. It does not "exist simply to deny the beliefs of those [who] are religious" any more than Religion A exists to deny the beliefs of the followers of Religion B. (You could argue that all religions except the first, caveperson one, exists to deny the existence of the others, but that's specious, isn't it?)
Atheism is in its own right a belief system, which doesn't find the necessity to posit the existence of any gods to explain anything. The term Atheism is NOT equivalent to "secular humanism" which is more a form of agnosticism - which is when you don't believe in any particular god, but don't necessarily believe that there ARE NO gods. I really meant atheism, not secular humanism, in my query.

An atheist may respect the BEHAVIORS of religious folks, by not clapping in christian churches, covering women's heads in mosques and men's heads in synagogues, not eating till after someone says Grace, and so on. But no atheist I know respects (in the sense of thinking these are as valid as one's own beliefs) the BELIEFS of religious folks, any more than espousers of Religion A respect the beliefs of followers of Religion B.

If you want a term for radical rabid anti-any-religious-expression folks, use ANTITHEIST, not Atheist, as atheism is neutral in reference to theism, whereas antitheism is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 May 00 - 12:16 PM

In a very real sense, Joe Hill's (and other unionists') rewrites of popular hymns fit the description nicely. Preacher and the Slave. Hold the Fort. he IWW version of Onward Christian Soldiers, (all in DigiTrad).

Subject: Is Atheism a belief system?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 00 - 04:38 PM

I dunno, Mrr. It is highly unlike me to admit defeat in a debate, but I may have to, in this situation - to a point.
I wish I had time to nuance my response a little more carefully, but I made the mistake of volunteering to work this week, so I suppose I'd better head off and do it.
Nonetheless, I'd like to make a few points. I think it's safe to say that atheism is not a belief system, in and of itself. It is a word that describes a variety of belief systems that do not believe in a God. Secular humanism is a belief system that I think can be used to describe a lot of English-speaking atheists, although secular humanism can be either atheistic or agnostic.
Sometimes, atheists join together for various purposes - usually, it seems, to oppose the imposition of religious beliefs on society (the American Atheists might be a good example). It generally seems that these atheist unions are typified by their a desire for a lack of belief, rather than a belief in anything. While their purpose may be noble (and I agree with their purposes many time), they serve primarily a negative function of the sort that does not ordinarily tend to generate hymns and inspiring songs.
My point is that atheists have various systems of belief that are atheistic in nature - but that atheism is not a belief system itself. Semantics, perhaps, but it never hurts to define your terms.
And yes, I think my atheist and Jewish and evangelical friends respect my liberal Catholic beliefs. They don't espouse my beliefs and they may consider me quaint and perhaps eccentric for what I believe, but they respect me for believing what I believe. I, in turn, have great respect for a number of different systems of belief; and I study other beliefs because I have much to learn from what others believe.
So, Mrr, I guess I'm not quite ready to admit defeat - yet.
But feel free to keep trying to convince me.
-Joe Offer, off to work-

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 May 00 - 10:08 PM

Joe, (and this can of course wait till you have time), I wouldn't say I was trying to convince you of anything - I was just defining my terms. I'm all for semantics!
First, I don't know enough about secular humanism to discuss that term, so I'll go back to atheism. Having now checked out the link to the American Atheists, I still think that even when all-out for the "total separation of government and religion" (quoting the site) - which I am all for - atheism still is a belief system that could be viewed as taking the lack of gods on faith. The atheists I know have full sets of ethics and morals, as well as mythologies for explaining natural phenomena with the occasional personification metaphor - but just no gods. I don't know what else you need for a belief system? After all, arguing with someone about their faith's variance from yours is as rude coming from one religion to another as coming from atheism to a religion, if you can call the Crusades or the anti-Infidel terrorism of the '80's rude.
Oh well, I guess I am trying to convince you of something - which is that atheism is -or at least, can be- a belief in no god, rather than no belief in a god.
I guess if more people used the term atheism to mean a belief system including (if you will) faith in there being no gods, maybe it would get rid of its negative overtones, in fact. Which would be a good thing for the atheists.

(Thread creep alert)
I guess I'm for freedom FROM religion as much as freedom OF religion: you can believe whatever you like, and I will respect the rites which demonstrate those beliefs, unless it conflicts too strongly with my own belief system. To wit, I don't urge bacon on inappropriate kith or kin though my system allows pork, but I'd try my best to argue them into having life-saving surgery if they were against such things.

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 May 00 - 10:33 PM

Damn, this is great! Someone to talk theology (in an intelligent way) with Joe.

I just sign my letters to him:

Heathen (but still thinking!)

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 17 May 00 - 12:06 AM

Andres, is *that* what Carmina Burana is about??? I never knew! If only I'd known that when I saw the ballet 20 years ago with a certain young lady, it might have led to some interesting conversation...

My contributions to Old Time Religion:

We will worship Mother Earth
In her length and breadth and girth
For of Earth there is no dearth
And that's good enough for me

Oh I love to worship Venus
There is nothing comes between us
'Cause she doesn't have a temple
But she's good enough for me

We will sing Gregorian chants
We will sing Gregorian chants
We will sing Gregorian chants
We will sing Gregorian chants

And one from Meryle Korn in Portland:
Oh we all will worship Loki
Who's the ancient god of chaos
Which is why this verse doesn't rhyme or scan very well either
But it's good enough for me

Joe and Mrrzy, interesting discussion. I think what appears to be a disagreement is more a difference in definition (or understanding) of what each of you means by "atheism", and you're probably quite close to agreement in your basic ideas about religion itself. Or so it seems to me. (This is more thread precession than thread creep, and I'm enjoying it.)

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 May 00 - 12:32 AM

Let me introduce an example of atheism which is not at all a beliefs system : that of scientists (or an important part of them). The existence or non-existence of God is a matter of fact or fantasy, and not a belief for them. Many scientists are religious,but they will never establish a base for search, in any kind of faith, be it the main religions, or mythology or paganism.
This position does not qualify them for stating which beliefs are true and which are not, they simply remain neutral, and keeping an eye in facts. At the same time you will find a great, deep sense of humanism in them. (I adhere to that position as much as I try to humbly follow the philosophy of Jesus, though not in any church, but that´s a personal opinion.)
Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 May 00 - 02:05 AM

Hey, Mrr - have your semanticist call my semanticist. When they come to an agreement on terms, we'll talk. I think Mark is right - our ideas are probably pretty much in agreement, and it's just the terms that we disagree on.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Stewie
Date: 17 May 00 - 02:25 AM

GuestPaul Burke, the song you quoted from is 'Miracles' by Jim Woodland. It was recorded by Roy Bailey on his 'Never Leave a Story Unsung' CD. Bailey noted: 'While I don't think all fairy stories are "lies", I do agree with the way the song uses the image'. Magnificent song.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 17 May 00 - 05:10 AM

Quite often, it appears to me, that just by stating you are an athiest people consider it a affront to their own religious beliefs. I have lost track of the times that I have had the response - " but you have morals so you really are a Christian/Believer - you just don't admit it". I could not imagine an athiest being allowed to wander down the street with a plachard that states - There is no God. I have weighed up the pros and cons and decided than on balance it is much more likely that God doesn't exist. Hence - Athiest.

Another reason people think that Athiests and the Athiest press are anti - religious is because some religious people can handle any critisms of their religion and more specifically any attemps to remove additional privledges that their religion has given them. (Please note I did say some - not all. You should see the feedback to the Secular web sites - among the you will fry in hell letters are well thought out and reasoned religious agruments). A good example of additional religious priveldge - is the maintaining of the places for bishops in the House of Lords.

This means that I have to live my life to my own design. I would now call myself a Secular Humanist. In that I think that I should live my life with utmost consideration for other people and secular in that I have come to the conclusion that there is no external spirutal input. Needless to say I never live up to my ideals. But if you are living up to your ideals - you are setting them too low.

Sorry if I sound a bit overbearing but I feel fairly strongly about this.

Julie

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,micca at work
Date: 17 May 00 - 06:34 AM

For a mix of assorted "religous" and non religous "hymns" I would reccommend the recordings of fellow 'catter Animaterra.. the choir does some wonderful non "god" hymns.. ie "When the dark time ends" on there 99 winter CD... Animaterra is contactable thru' the private messages and could probably supply more info.. but the recordings are pure magic...and I couldn't reccommend them more..

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 00 - 06:53 AM

"But if you are living up to your ideals - you are setting them too low."

I nominate that for the book of new Mudcat quotations that some eagle-eyed Catter ought to set up. Too good to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson at work
Date: 17 May 00 - 09:03 AM

WOW what a thread! For things that we believe in that deeply, it's good to see the amount of mutual respect that keeps being stated and re-stated. I agree with teh suggestion of some of the Joe Hill songs; I haven't seen Power in the Union (which U. Utah Phillips considered Joe's best song) mentioned yet. My two favorite songs along these lines: Give me the Roses (Dick, forgive me, I didn't look to see if it's in the database) which I know from the Carter Family but also found in my Sacred Harp book under the name of "Odum" Stan Roger's Mary Ellen Carter (Rise again!) I heard an anecdote that he had deliberately written it as an allegory. I hope so; he's not around for me to ask. And to Mark and John o' Brisbane (is that anywhere near Dreams?) thanks for Old Time Religion-- you had a couple verses I've never seen before! Some that I sing that aren't in most people's collection are:

We will all chant Hare Krishna
We will all chant Hare Krishna
I can't find it in the Mishna
but it's good enough for me

We will sacrifice to Kali
Though embracing her is folly
She is quite a handful-- golly
And she's good enough for me

It was good enough for Dagon
A conservative old Pagan
Who still votes for Ronald Reagon
and it's. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 May 00 - 04:37 PM

Passing through the Body Mind and Spirit portion of the bookshop it occurred to me to wonder - would Buddhist chants suffice?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 May 00 - 08:28 PM

"We will follow Jim & Tammy
Get a condo in Miami
Pay no tax to Uncle Sammy...
And it's good enough for me"

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: ddw
Date: 18 May 00 - 12:52 AM

Interesting thread.

Joe, I think I have to come down on Mrr's side on the meaning of atheist — it just means "without god" as far as I've ever been able to figure out. I think his term "antitheist" is closer to describing someone who is actively negative about about god and the religious trapping mankind has built around the belief.

All that said, though, I wonder if there really is such a thing as an atheist in the sense of it being a "religiously-held" belief. As Bertrand Russell and the cardinal (was it Cushing? I can't remember for sure) amply demonstrated in their famous debate, you can't PROVE the existance of god without first ASSUMING the existance of god. You also can't prove that god doesn't exist without assuming that god doesn't exist.

That makes agnosticism the only position open to a thinking person — an agnostic being someone who DOESN'T KNOW if god exists.

Then the relevant question becomes "Does it matter whether there is a god?" The only answer I've been able to come up with is that it doesn't, except to use it as a framework to scare people into adhering to societal rules if they're too slow to figure out for themselves that those rules — applied as evenly as possible — are what allows us to live with bunches of people without commiting or being victims of murder and mayhem.

Examples of this are easily found in the 10 Commandments. I don't remember all of them offhand, but take adultry, for instance. I really can't believe that there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omni-everything being who really gives a shit about who's doing who, but I can sure as hell believe that a lot of men will kill you in a minute if they catch you dipping your stick in THEIR PROPERTY.

Same goes for "thou shalt not steal" and all the other commandments. They make sense for the peace and wellbeing of the group — no matter how narrowly or widely it's defined — but it has nothing to do with a god. Or at least it NEED NOT NECESSARILY have anything to do with a god.

There are several other points in the thread I'd like to comment on, but work calls. Back later.

David

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Grab
Date: 18 May 00 - 09:29 AM

Re DDW, exactly. And most of the Jewish rituals (not eating the meat of scavenging animals like pork, and circumcision) make a lot of sense when you consider that they were thought up during a long period spent as nomads. It you're constantly on the move, the last thing you want is food poisoning or illness, otherwise you'll either slow up the whole company or be left behind when the group moves on. It just seems that someone forgot to tell them to stop when they settled...

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 18 May 00 - 09:41 AM

Boy, this is fun. And I just LOVE all the new verses to Old Time Religion - esp. that one that doesn't scan because it is about Loki! LOL! More, please!

But back to semantics. I think it important to diminish the negative connotations to the term atheism. This country was founded on great ideals, and freedom, real freedom of religion should include the freedom to have no religion at all, and have that be as "valid" a "belief system" and as respected by others as if it were a religion. It is a question of MANNERS, politeness - or ought to be.
I said earlier that I didn't know enough about Secular Humanism to comment upon it. Having done more reading, I have to admit that it comes about as close to defining what I think of as atheism as I've ever seen in writing... yet... I hesitate to encourage atheists to call themselves secular humanists, because suddenly that feels like putting them to a different, albeit atheistic, religion. I'd rather have the possibility of NO religion be considered valid than coin a new term so that atheists don't have to call themselves atheists, even if they agree with everything that is "preached" or whatever you want to call it by secular humanism.
That is actually a pet peeve of mine (we had another thread about it, anyone who can do a blicky, connect us to the one about what to call people) - inventing new terms like Wellness to add (what, exactly?) to perfectly good words like Health. Why, in this wonderful country of ours, can't the atheists just be atheists? It's their right, or ought to be, IM(NSH)O.

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 May 00 - 01:26 PM

Forgot to mention, I have always thought there was a term for people who didn't care one way or the other about the existence of god(s), in contrast to those who are uncertain:

If you believe in the existence of god(s), you are a theist.
If you believe in the nonexistence of god(s), you are an atheist.
If you don't know whether god(s) exist or not, you are an agnostic.
And if you don't CARE whether god(s) exist or not, you are an IGnostic.

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: ddw
Date: 19 May 00 - 12:11 AM

Mrrzy,

Is ignostic a real term, or just something you made up? Can't find it in my Webster's 9th Collegiate and I don't think I've ever encountered it before. Made me suspect it was your term, and I initially bridled at it, then realized that it's not that I don't care if there's a god (or gods), it's just that I don't think it's relevant to my life.

Arthur C. Clarke had an interesting observation in one of his novels — Rendevous with Rama, I think — on the concepts of good and evil as they relate to god. He said statisticians can prove good and evil don't exist on the human plane because everything that is good for one person or group is bad for another person or group. Makes sense to me. As long as mankind is fighting over scarce resources (food, oil, water, land — whatever), anything that wipes out one side is good for the other. Leaves more for the survivors. Nasty thought, but I can't see any way to argue with it.

Now, if good and evil don't exist, where does that leave our concept of god? Or, more specifically, our concept of evil as personified by the devil? Sorta knocks a lot of religions into a cocked hat, doesn't it?

That is not to rule out that there is a god who is the embodiment of both good and evil, but that also sorta knocks most religions into the dumpster, since most tell us that if we're good, god will favor us. Does that mean that only god gets to be evil with impunity? Come to think of it, maybe that's the case. Maybe we're rewarded for being good, 'cause god wants all the fun of being bad, commiting all the murder and mayhem for his own amusement. Doesn't sound like any god I'd want to worship, but there you are.

I couldn't agree more that any meaningful definition of freedom of religion must include freedom from religion. I'm perfectly willing to let anyone believe anything they want, as long as they don't try to convert me to their belief patterns or persecute me because I don't agree with them.

Growing up in a Presbyterian assembly grounds in North Carolina — and I come from a long line of (mostly) Presbyterian ministers — I quickly learned that believers weren't willing to cut me the same slack I cut them. I guess I just never got the "faith gene" in there and every time somebody told me about how wonderful god or Jesus was, I'd start asking questions. Their response, invariably, was anger. If not at first, always when my questions pushed them to the point at which they had to revert to "faith" and I asked what it was that gave them their faith. I've had many people tell me that my views were obnoxious to them, but I've never had one show any inkling that their views might be obnoxious to me. Faith seems to be a one-way street, albeit a dead end (no pun intended).

I do find blind faith obnoxious. Humans are generally capable of thought, of pushing perceptions past what is here and now to what was and what will be. It's a wonderful facility. Faith blocks that, stunts it, makes it wither. Any thing we believe is something we will never be able to know anything about. We would never push the envelope, never explore, never question anything that is an article of faith. What a waste! That's why I find most faith — and particularly most religions — obnoxious. They draw lines around our knowledge and say (like medieval maps) "beyond this lie demons." My response to that is, thanks for the warning — but maybe it's just YOU that pisses them off.

Enough of that rant.

cheers

david

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,JulieF
Date: 19 May 00 - 07:36 AM

You are not lacking a faith gene - you have a sceptic gene - ie it makes you question.

Julie

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 19 May 00 - 01:12 PM

David, I learned the term Ignostic in college, but I doubt it's made it into a dictionary. Unfortunately!

About good and evil - or the broader question of Can you have ethics/morals if you have no god(s) - I have never understood the link. And that's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish, e.g., is there absolute good or evil. Arthur Clarke's thing about it being relative is sensible - where I grew up in West Africa, thievery was a much worse crime/sin than murder, for example. So what is considered good BY CONSENSUS becomes what IS good. Thus in Abengourou (an upcountry village in Côte d'Ivoire), stealing is unforgivable. In Abingdon, Virginia, murder is unforgivable. As the village becomes global, either both of those will become "evil" or neither - and with the influence of the industrialized world, the chances are that it will be both, not neither- so then we all, on Terra, consider both theft and murder to be crimes. Where's the sin in that?

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 May 00 - 05:13 AM

I once saw a piece about good and evil which used the sort of scene you might get in a thriller. Two men are fighting on a cliff top, and one falls over the edge, hanging on by his fingertips. How can you tell if it is the hero or the villain who has fallen?

I use this with children who seem too ready to accept that the hero of a cartoon is the hero because he/she always wins, and they can usually work out the differences between the characters.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 May 00 - 12:15 PM

I guess if the guy at the top of the cliff stomps on the hanger-on's hands, then the stomper is the villain; if instead he tries to rescue the hanger-on, then the hanger-on is the villain? Is this like the Which Road Leads to Freedom conundrum?

Subject: Lyr Add: ONLY REMEMBERED ^^
From: GUEST,gharper
Date: 20 May 00 - 01:50 PM

The greatest secular hymn I know, and it's a rousing one, is "Only Remembered." But not the wimpy version in the database, but the version I learned it from the marvelous Canadian trio Finest Kind (Ian Robb, Shelly Posen and Ann Downey), on their cd "Lost in a Song", 1966, available from Fallen Angle Music (sic [they're serious scientific secularists, I suspect!]), 285 Spencer Street, Ottawa, ON K1Y 2R1. They got it from the English trio Coope, Boyes and Simpson, who say the the irresistible, uplifting waltz tune, as well as first two verse lyrics are trad.(2nd verse identical to last one in the mudcat db; 3rd verse written by John Tams, Voice Publishing)

Here are the lyrics oops, I guess it's agnostic, given the last line in the the last verse): CAN ANYONE PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME ON THE REFERENT OF "LINE" in the phrase, "Will the line hold; will it scatter and run?"

ONLY REMEMBERED

Fading away like the stars in the morning,
Losing their light in the glorious sun,
Thus will we fade from this earth and its toiling,
Only remembered for what we have done.

Only remembered, only remembered,
Only remembered for what we have done,
Thus will we fade from this earth and its toiling,
Only remembered for what we have done.

Only the truth that in life we have spoken,
Only the seeds that on Earth we have sown,
These will pass onward when we are forgotten,
Only remembered for what we have done.

Only remembered, only remembered,
Only remembered for what we have done,
These will pass onward when we are forgotten,
Only remembered for what we have done.

Who'll sing the anthem and who'll tell the story?
Will the line hold; will it scatter and run?
Shall we at last be united in glory?,
Only remembered for what we have done.

GH ^^

Line Breaks
added.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 May 00 - 03:00 PM

I've always had a difficult time with some of the definitions mentioned here. At different times I've called myself an agnostic or atheist, but neither really seem accurate. I see a strong probability of some kind of divine intervention at work, but am amazed when folks put it into white robes, give it an extended family,(with extensive man-made biography) and contribute huge sums of money to those who claim to be it's representatives on earth. Why is it so difficult to live with the knowledge that "I don't know, you don't know, the various eclesiastical CEO's don't know, and maybe...someday we'll find out.

On the other hand, I love Bob Zentz's song "Til All Thy Names Are One".

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 May 00 - 05:49 PM

I really like Only Remembered! (I figure the last line can always be amended.)
To answer your query, MY vision of the "line" is that of a holding-the-fort kind of line, picket line, anything where humans unite to prevent something (the guy in Tianenmen Square was a line unto himself); will they hold fast, or scatter and run? Anyone else have a better one?

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 May 00 - 11:12 AM

That's it, Mrrzy

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Edmund Flynn (inactive)
Date: 21 May 00 - 09:46 PM

I agree with the "theist - athiest" division and believe that both terms have no values invested in them until we take another step and express our values.
In the 1940's when I was pondering these things I decided that I was a homo-sapien chauvanist. I don't think that the term secular humanism was in use.
These days it is more often referred to as "Democratic Secular Humanism" to distinguish it from less desirable forms that the world has seen.

Edmund

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Davewilkes
Date: 21 May 00 - 10:09 PM

As a de facto Atheist theologian, I object to the use of the term, "believe" in reference to Atheists. An Atheist does not believe there is no god; an Atheist lives a life without a god.

a = without theist = following a god believe = to accept as true without credible evidence

I have found I can sing religious songs in such a way as to make them completely ridiculous. Imagine if you will a known Atheist singing, "They Whupped Him up the Hill Just for Me". One does not even have to change the words (although I have a version where I did just that).

I am not sure what the originator of this thread is seeking.

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 May 00 - 01:11 AM

I would agree with those who have stated that the term "atheist" is a rather neutral one which, while declaring that the individual does not believe in God or gods, does not make any statement of belief or values outside that declaration. There are certainly many people walking around who do not believe in God, who also do not believe in any other moral or ethical guideline, with the possible exception of legal constraints. In the same way, there are people who have evolved their own moral and ethical belief system outside of any god-based religion, but I think that Existentialism is probably the most accurate term for this self-imposed and self-evolved ethical system. This term expresses a life philosophy in action, and no church membership is required.

To the person who alluded to AC Clarke in terms of no absolute good or bad because "what is good for one group of people is bound to be bad for another". I see no logic to the argument. To give food to the starving from our own larder does no one ill, while certainly doing good. To murder a fellow human being out of jealousy or anger does evil with no resultant good. From such in-born moral and ethical intuition, a rational belief system takes root.

I would also like to respectfully disagree with the person who stated that, because the existence of God is logically un-proveable, that all thinking individuals are thus obliged to practice Agnosticism. To attempt to explain all existance through Logic is like dissecting a flower to ascertain why it blooms. The non-believer sees God nowhere, the believer sees God manifested in everything.

As far as an anthem for Existentialists, I believe that Lennon's Imagine works as well as any -

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

LEJ

Subject: RE: BS: Godless 'hymns' or Atheism Church Music?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 22 May 00 - 10:32 AM

Davewilkes, I was seeking beautiful music celebrating atheism, by which I did mean the belief that there is no god, not a life without god, which I would call secular. If atheism isn't the term for a belief in there being no god(s), what is? And that is a serious question; I keep running into atheism meaning secularism to people, and am looking for a term that is neutral in connotation (to wit, not ANTI-theistic) for people who really do believe that there is no god - they are thus not agnostic, so what do theologians call them?
And, Lonesome EJ, perhaps this will explain ACClarke's logic: where you say "To give food to the starving from our own larder does no one ill, while certainly doing good. To murder a fellow human being out of jealousy or anger does evil with no resultant good." - I must beg to differ. Instead, I agree that the CONTEXT in which you are acting can be paramount. For example: American soldiers liberating the concentration camps killed literally hundreds of survivors by giving them fortified K-rations and chocolate, whereas the British, less soft-hearted, refused them rich food till their systems could handle it. In this example, giving food to the starving from our larder did them a grave ill - it killed the starving who'd managed to survive the Nazis. By the same token, capital punishment can be viewed as murdering a fellow human being out of anger, but I'm not sure that (to those who support capital punishment) it does no resultant good. In many cultures, killing someone for committing a crime is seen as resulting in good for the rest of society, even if that killing is done in the heat of passion, in anger at the crime already committed.