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Thinking like a TERRORIST
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Gareth Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:56 PM Musically of course -
Ring a ring of roses, Remember the origin of that ? Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Paul from Hull Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:13 PM Doug.......*ROLMAO!!!* |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:49 PM Famine , war and pestilence are the 3 reapers of life/civilization. If the pestilence issue is overblown for political purposes I do not know. I do know that we have many bio war labs in Virginia. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Mark Cohen Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:05 PM Celtic Soul, I read that web page, and I haven't changed my mind. It may be true, as this person says, that biological warfare is out of reach of terrorists. But I don't think he proves his point at all, and the misinformation in the site doesn't help. Neither does the fact that he does not give his name, his credentials, his affiliation, or any reason why we should believe him other than that he is a "biologist". This page from Johs Hopkins University suggests that the use of anthrax as a biological weapon is not all that far-fetched. For example, when anthrax spores were accidentally released into the atmosphere in the USSR in 1979, 68 people died. And it may be true, as Mr. Anonymous Biologist states, that "weapons-grade" anthrax spores can only be manufactured in countries like the U.S. and Russia. But anyone who thinks that makes it impossible for terrorists to acquire them (by theft, for example) must be living on a different planet. Please understand, CS, I'm not directing my annoyance at you. I'm just pointing out that you should be very wary of relying on information from anonymous or unaccredited websites. I certainly believe that the government and the mass media don't always tell people the truth. But if I say the media are lying, even if they are, that doesn't mean that what I have to say is automatically true. (I see the same fallacy all the time in "alternative" health claims--and I'm more supportive of complementary and alternative medicine than the average physician.) My reading of the situation is that bioterrorism is possible, but that for most of the potential agents there are vaccines and treatments available. And for the others, there's not a whole hell of a lot I can do. I'm not losing sleep over it. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:10 PM Dear Doug...... I have said repeatedly that I have never posted in any way as a Guest.....PERIOD. Yeah, some yahoo is indeed doing the Clete thing perhaps, but it is not and has never been me.....EVER. Do you understand? Had I wanted to post like Cletus, I would have done so as Cletus. Never in my history on the 'Cat have I failed to ID myself for any reason. Are we clear? What bothers me is the idea that you would think that I would do any anonymous posting whatsoever......Never have,never will. Sorry if you think I would or that perhaps this should have been a PM, but I get tired of the anonymous crap anyway and any accusation from a long term member like yourself does trouble me.......My apologies if I have taken this wrong because I rarely get too worked up, but, uh...... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Mark Cohen Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:12 PM Oh, and Gareth, I believe "Ring Around a Rosy" dates to the time of the Black Death. The first line referred to the skin lesions, the second to the fact that people thought they could prevent infection by continually sniffing flowers. The third line I believe was originally "Ashes, ashes" and may refer to the burning of the corpses, but I'm not positive about that. And "All fall down" is obvious. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Jeri Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:29 PM The "Ring Around The Rosie" story is false. Click here. Sounds reasonable though... |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Gervase Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:59 PM Ricin is indeed a potent poison, but I'm not sure about its oral efficacy. It was used spectacularly by the Bulgarian secret service to poison Georgi Markov, a dissident who worked for the BBC World Service. Markov was crossing one of the Thames bridges when he felt a sharp sting on the back of his leg. He turned and thought he had been accidentally poked by an umbrella, and then carried on. He thought little more of it, but when he got home after telling his wife of his day he later collapsed, sweating profusely, fell into a coma and died before morning. Doctors were baffled. The pathologist who carried out the PM spotted a small black mark on the back of Markov's leg, and almost dismissed it as a boil or spot, but a hung made him look forther. Just under the skin was an irridium sphere, just a few microns across, with a hole running through it. In the hold were microgrammes of ricin. The inquest concluded that Markov had been murdered, and the the sting in his leg on the bridge earlier that day had been the ricin pellet, shot from an airgun disguised as an umbrella. The pellet is still in the black museum at New Scotland Yard, along with many other strange and macabre curios. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:26 PM That of course was a case of a government acting as a terrorist organisation. Quite a lot of those in the Coalition against Terrorism, or whatever it gets called.
They are the people with the most developed facilities for using sophisticated stuff like that. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Mark Cohen Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:01 PM My hat's off to you, Jeri! Nice to lay that one to rest, as it were. What I love about the Snopes site is that it covers such a large number of widely held myths, it's meticulously researched and documented, and it also has a sense of humor (and the authors give their names!) Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Gareth Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:10 PM Mark - Precisely Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Jeri Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:12 PM It sure made a good story though. Mark. I heard one version where "ashes, ashes" was actually "achoo, achoo." I'm doing that a lot at the moment, and think I may be a test subject for secret rhinoplague experiments. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM I read that whole thing, and I still like the Black Plague explanation the best! I don't know if it's true or not, I just like it. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Celtic Soul Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:31 PM Mark Cohen said: "Please understand, CS, I'm not directing my annoyance at you. I'm just pointing out that you should be very wary of relying on information from anonymous or unaccredited websites". No worries here, friend. I am not so attached to *any* idea that I am not open to hear evidence against it. And, if you and Spaw have sites that would provide more accurate and better information to those questioning (in this case, CarolC), then I am in favour of it being posted. I did a very casual search in order to come up with the sites in question, and did not read the entire contents at either place. For those who would like to do their own searches, I highly recomend a "Dogpile" search. www.dogpile.com is a great search engine that searches other search engines. My search parameters were, "Anthrax weapon" and "Ebola Weapon". It yielded a lot more than the 2 sites, but those 2 were the first to say anything about how they act as a contagion as it specifically pertains to use as a weapon. Thank you for the clarification, Mark. :D |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Troll Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:18 PM Thanks Jeri. *sigh* Another cherished illusion shattered. Another good engine is www.beaucoup. troll |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST,Den Date: 06 Oct 01 - 12:30 AM So Donuel, you've worked up a nice frenzy of death and destruction here...what's your solution? Den |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 06 Oct 01 - 08:23 AM At some point solutions become irrelevant and the only option is search and rescue. Some things in motion are hard to stop. Trains need hundreds of yards to stop, super tankers need several miles and wars need an incredible death toll. To have discussed these matters 10 years ago would have been countered with "gentlemen, we must not have a germ warfare gap". To discuss it today is grim and is considered by some playing into the hands of the fear factor. We got here in part by ignoring the scope of military plans for the world. To stop it now is impossible. We are all potential collateral damage. We may be like the Statue of Liberty with a super tanker at full speed on a collision course merely a mile away. A scenario prepared by ABC suggests 50,000 dead from one bio attack in one city. Late last night ABC had a town meeting moderated by Ted Koppel on bio terrorism. The leading experts all painted a dire picture. I suggest you go to ABC.com for a transcript. Not for solutions but for advice. The next attack I presume will be in CA. This is based on intercepted information in Russia. The phrase America will be stabbed in the back may prove telling. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 06 Oct 01 - 12:20 PM There are some antibacterial foods...don't know how they would help against certain bugs, but you never know...coconut, cranberries, garlic come to mind. Stock up. Especially cranberries since I am affiliated with them. There are essential oils used in aromatherapy that are mighty bacteria fighters...almost all are..and they are pretty cheap..orange, lemon. The most powerful are thyme and clove I think. Just put a few drops in water and spray. Tea tree oil is also anti=viral I believe. These are all things you would like anyway in housekeeping, air freshening etc. Some can be used in the bath (read up on which ones...some are too strong unless put in the right carrier oil in right proportions..) They are good for a lot of ailments besides. And orange cheers you up..especially mixed with nutmeg oil. mg |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Peg Date: 06 Oct 01 - 12:35 PM thanks for that holistic information mgarvey. On Nightline during the Town Meeting, experts responded to a question about hoarding antibiotics and buying gasmasks by saying "don't." He thought hoarding antibiotics (the portin of their earlier scenario they showed portrayed looting of pharmacies for people desperate to get their hands on antibiotics which would do no good) would simply lead to abuse of antibiotics and reducing the body's natural resistance. Natural antibiotics which do NOT compromise the immune system include: (many of these mentioned already) garlic, cranberry juice (not with sugar), antimicrobial essential oils like tea trea and naiouli, thyme (a bit toxic), and colloidal silver. Gargling with good old Listerine is great, too. You can put a couple drops of tea tree or naiouli in water and gargle with it; excellent for preventing respiratory infections and guarding against infectious agents which attack via the throat. If used early enough tea tree can prevent strep infection from taking hold; but one mustn't mess with it, strep can be dangerous. Spraying antimicrobial essential oils diluted in water (ten drops per quart) around the home also helps clear the air of bacteria: including tea tree, lavender, lemon, grapefruit, (any of the citrus oils ae good), cinnamon or clove, thyme, lemongrass, etc. Spray directly on areas like bathrom surfaces, phones, doorknobs, etc. Will it save lives? Perhaps not but it beats taking antibiotics orally, which can deplete valuable bacteria in the body and thus leave us even more susceptible to illness.
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:58 PM Regarding anthrax it would require 60 days of antibiotic (only if you had NO symptoms first)AND a vaccine [WHICH IS UNAVAILABLE TO CIVILIANS]. There is no defense. The facility for producing anthrax vaccine is "standing down" whatever that means. A Small pox epidemic (the weapon varient) would eventually find parents euthenising their children rather than watch the horrid slow stench of excrusiating death. It is by far the most tortuous of bio weapons. Thank you research scientists :-( |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: catspaw49 Date: 06 Oct 01 - 02:16 PM Watching Nightline I was struck with the same thing that always gets me........Big Federal dollars get sapped in the bureaucracy and the needed funds never reach the local levels in sufficient quantity (I hesitate to say "to get sapped by LOCAL bureaucrats"). It doesn't matter a ratsass if we are "prepared" on the Federal level if the local level is not. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: DougR Date: 06 Oct 01 - 04:22 PM Oh, Spaw, I was just funnin' you! I know you wouldn't post as anyone except Spaw and/or Cletus. Sorry I got your dander up, friend. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 06 Oct 01 - 05:37 PM I am shocked that Doug is really Cletus and a number of other alias'. I am also shocked that there is gambling in this establishment. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 06 Oct 01 - 08:02 PM Some People Call Them Wahhabi Islamo-Fascists By Stephen Schwartz 10-6-1 [message deleted] Also posted in two other places - Click here to read Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Mark Cohen Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:12 AM Well, like anything else you read these days this should be verified...but it certainly makes sense. I for one am more or less ignorant of Islamic factions, as I presume are most non-Muslim westerners. I know a little about Sufis, and have heard the terms Shiite and Sunni bandied about since the 80s, but this Wahhabi is a new one on me. I'm particularly troubled by the idea that Saudi Arabia may be the prime mover behind much of what's been going on, since we know how anxious our government is to avoid offending our prime source of oil. I'm curious also how Iraq and Imad Mughniyeh, who some say is the real mastermind behind the September 11 attacks, fit into this scheme. (Here's an interesting--and disturbing--article on Mughniyeh from Jane's Foreign Report. I don't know a lot about Jane's, but I understand they are respected in the military community.) I must say, Donuel, I haven't been particularly sanguine about a number of your previous posts, but I really appreciate your bringing this to our attention. Maybe it deserves a new thread of its own. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Mark Cohen Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:14 AM And I also wanted to offer condolences on the loss of your father. I lost my dad 10 years ago and still miss him. Mark |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Troll Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:31 AM Don, my condolences on losing your father. I hope he went quickly and peacefully. Thanks for the post on the Wahabi. It verifies info I've gotten from other articles. BTW, Mark, Janes is quite well respected. troll |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:12 AM Thank you for the condolences. As brilliant as he was a constitutional law professor, a result of the GI Bill, he lacked a degree of familial affection that made domestic life one of mixed feelings. There have been TV reports of Saudi charities funneling money with a tacit understanding it will go to terrorist organizations. With Saudi king Faouk fleeing to Switzerland and the flip flopping decisions to allow US forces to stage its air force, the dichotomy within Saudi Arabia is most evident. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: DougR Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:55 PM Donuel: I join the others in expressing sympathy for the loss of your father. Your post indicates that you might not have had a close relationship with him, and I'm sorry about that too. I lost my dad when he was 53 years old. That was over 45 years ago, and I still miss him. Your long post was interesting. Thanks for posting it. Please don't take this as criticism, but if you would break your longer posts into paragraphs it sure would be easier to read. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Donuel Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:43 AM Michael Moodie,Co Founder + President of the Biological Arms Control Institute. "Lets not worry about if biologic warfare exists, it is real." Small pox virus (super weapons grade) has been stock piled in the amount of 200 tons. If you think about how little a virus weighs, 200 tons is a fair amount. There was only ONE COUNTRY that voted against a UN bio war treaty and inspection program(146 to 1). Attacking with a contagious weapon is as simple as having one person infected and travel by plane train and automobile for the 10 days in which the disease is in incubation but is still contagious before the carrier dies. Spore powder could be added to newspaper, toilet paper, letters and other common household products at pre distribution sites so that a wide distribution is assured. Chemical agents are rapid attacking as opposed to biologic organisms or poisons so there is not the contagion aspect reaching far beyond the attack site. Chemical attack need not have crop dusters but can be introduced to tanker trucks by drivers that carry everything from milk to gasoline. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, We have been assured there is a 100% chance of a US based bio/chem attack or other "surprise". For those people who are thirsting for a fight to the death, they are likely to get their wish. The retalliation for WTC is now the excuse to escalate to these most insidious weapons. Although bioagent weapons were acceptable to only ONE country in the UN vote these "bugs" know no boundries.
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: DougR Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:45 PM Donuel: you really think we could avoid such a terrorist attack by our doing nothing to retaliate? DougR |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:55 PM No, but the whole world could avoid terrorist attacks by treating people everywhere in an equal and just fashion, thus ending poverty, powerlessness, envy and despair in numerous places. I know, it's a completely unrealistic and unworkable idea, given our present disunity and the generally brutal level of human consciousness...just a step or two above that of apes who have learned how to use clubs. Almost as unrealisitic and unworkable an idea as solving social problems through terrorism and counter-wars against terrorism! Duh. Here's an alternative solution: The USA could build a huge impenetrable, missile-proof, transparent bubble around itself (out of high grade teflon, perhaps), extending out as far as territorial waters, and projecting down to the sea bed, thus sealing off the entire country from the rest of the planet. This would be very expensive, but could be done by diverting all those funds that are presently being spent overseas propping up people who aren't even Americans anyway! The Americans would be nice and safe inside the bubble, free to pursue happiness and live in a consumerist utopia so glorious that every family would soon have a 3 car garage and a TV and computer in every room. This would be a brave new world worth investing in! No more foreign aid, no American boys getting killed on foreign soil, no immigration, and no United Nations building on American soil. The rest of the world could then wallow in the misery it so richly deserves. Some consideration could be given to building similar bubbles for England, Canada, and a few other places that are almost American anyway...providing they were willing to pay for it. If not, too bad. We have the technology to do it. We have the money to do it. Let's do it! God save America. (extreme sarcasm, of course....) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: DougR Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:22 PM No kidding, L.H. Hmmm. I wonder, though, ...would it work? JUST KIDDING! |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Jim Krause Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:31 PM OK, I'll bite. Mind you, I haven't read each and every post, so if I repeat some one else's idea, excuse the redundancy. If I were a terrorist, first thing I would not do is bother with biological, or chemical attacks. I'd find the best computer hacker money could buy, get this individual, or individuals to hack into the ConEd computer system, get the codes, and proceed to shut off the electricity to Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, and Washington D.C. Then I would make my demands known through my lieutenants in the US. If they were not met, then Chicago, LA, and while I'm at it the entire West Coast would go black. Next targets would be communcations satelites orbiting Earth. Hmmm, on second thought, switch the two plans of action. First hit the satelites, THEN go for the electrical grid. Neat, clean, effective, and I'd be sure to have my way. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: GUEST, I, hurricane Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:42 PM On PBS yesterday some bioterror experts were going on about it. I barely caught part of a reference to an incident where a well funded terrorist organization hired well qualified scientists to instigate an anthrax epidemic, but the product they released was anthrax vaccine, to no effect. All that said, though, the purpose is largely achieved by instilling fear that an infectious agent may be anywhere, so they don't really need to be very successful in their kill rates to be successful in the mission. Apparently nobody wants to buy the National Inquirer this week. |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Oct 01 - 05:16 PM Another cool thing one could do is spread rumours that Coke, Pepsi, and other soft drinks have been impregnated with a deadly, slow-acting biological weapon that causes impotency, sterility, and slow death by excessive salivation. The public's abandonment of soft drinks would simultaneously cripple both the general North American economy (short range effect)...and the dental profession (longer range effect). Dentists are big spenders too, so that would further damage an already reeling economy. The one undesirable effect of this scheme from a terrorist's point of view would be: a great improvement in the dental health of Americans...and millions of other people worldwide, plus a reduced rate of diabetes. Well, there are a few bugs in every great idea. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Thinking like a TERRORIST From: Gervase Date: 12 Oct 01 - 06:22 AM ...and stopping the world from drinking cabronated drinks would also hit the bin Laden family pretty hard. My understanding is that much of the family's wealth came from the refining and export of gum arabic, widely used in the soft drink and confectionary industries. Strange to think that every time you crack open a Coke you could be indirectly (and minutely) helping ol' Osama! |
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