BS: What IS a conservative?

Subject: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST,diggy f
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 07:52 PM

There are probably better things to do this Holiday season than reading political mudcat threads but once you start, well you know how contagious this place is.
Please help me with this. What IS the definition of 'conservative'? I've always thought that in folkie terms a conservative is someone pretty Centrist, simply because so much of folk music has been part of the civil rights and labour movement.

When I see people here defending Trent Lott (who's allied himself with what appear to be White Power groups) I'm quite shocked. Has anyone looked at the wbsite of The Conservative Citizens Council? To my way of thinking this goes way beyond a mere Conservative ideology.

I hope the definition of 'conservative' isn't as wide reaching as the definition of 'folkmusic' but whatever. I suppose if anyone wants to throw in their definition of 'liberal' this might also be a good place to do it.

diggy

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 07:59 PM

Who was it that said something like (paraphrasing here) 'happy families are all alike; unhappy families are the interesting ones.'?

The same thing is true of Conservatives. They seem to range from sweet but wrong, to nice but stuck, to nasty and pigheaded, to bitter and aggressive... Kind of like Bill Buckley- I very rarely agreed with anything he said but I listened to him.

I suppose the same thing could be said of the liberals- but not by me.

poo. I've already said more than I know for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 08:05 PM

When I took civics in high school, half a century ago, the text said that conservatives preferred to use methods that had proved reliable in the past and liberals liked to experiment. This was in Ft Worth, Texas, the home of the Southern Baptists. I mention that because they were once conservative in the historical sense and kept their noses strictly out of politics. Not that they didn't throw their weight around, but they did it nicely. They believed in the separation of church and state. The denomination was taken away from it's conservative leaders in very much the same way the republican party was taken from it's leaders by very much the same people. Perhaps that's why the definition no longer works.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 08:22 PM

All of my life in the UK they have been the enemy. They still are, but now I don't know who my friends are. They used to be Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 08:31 PM

Harvey, in the US we spell it without a capital C or L, very different from what you have in the UK. I goofed above.

But I agree with you. Definitions have changed so radically in the last 25 years that they are almost meaningless. Maybe we're in transition?

Third parties are looking better to me these days.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 08:39 PM

Our third party are the Liberals (big L)Is there no hope?

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 09:36 PM

And I think I'm an independent.

Somehow the word conservative has been aligned to the Republican Party and not to the word: conserve.

Whatever party is in power becomes conservative (trying to conserve their position) and the other liberal (trying to change and become coservative).

To me it's a ying yang thing.

Go figure,

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 11:22 PM

Diggy,

It's a good question I think. Nowadays there seems to be an old style conservative who is more "centrist" I would guess and what they call a "neo-con" who represents a more extreme reactionary position.

These labels are often dangerous in my view because they marginalize a political point of view. There are liberals I've met who are more conservative and conservatives who are quite liberal. What I mean by this is that ideas are not restrictive to a political point of view.
I would be considered conservative by some and quite liberal by others. I think of myself as very left of center.

Folk music crosses the boundaries. In the South, where I live, there are "folk singers" who have conservative values. These people often have grown up with Southern values..some segregationists...but the other night a man said something significant to me. When there's a room full of people singing, no one can be angry.

I remember Pete Seeger captivating an audience of the Young Republicans.............................

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 12:53 AM

Ebbie, the first line of Anna Karenin goes something like that.

As a liberal, I've formed the idea that American conservatives have a root notion of economics as a game. It's a spirited, lively, and a seductive way of looking at life, but it may still be wrong. One feels a spoilsport to hold an opposing view. That's part of why it's impossible to discuss hunger as an issue here--all anyone will say is to vent hostility at people in the supermarket line using food stamps to buy unhealthy foods, and wearing jewelry, and having kids they can't afford to take care of, and so on, until you have to give up, and agree that yes, that must be the problem--the poor people have all the money. That's ruining everything.

But then the whole liberal/conservative thing is another way of making a game of thinking about things.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 12:59 AM

Diggy:
I find it very annoying to suggest that a "folkie" has to belong to one or another political tradition. "Folk music" is identified with different ideas at different times. In the early days of the Century, it was identified as "national music." Geeze, I can never think of the right names when I want them. But Bartok was in that tradition, and Applachian Spring and that very famous hyphenated English composer whose name refuses to come to mind. All great folkies. As was James Joyce. None of whom much gets mentioned as such in this Forum.

And folk music was identified with nationalism. Even to this day, in Germany, at least, the devil has the best songs.

In the 30's, leftists began leading the way, the idea being that real folk music was property of the workers and farmers who were the people who primarily sang it. And there is truth in that, and there were some fine protest songs, i.e. Uncle Dave Macon and Woodie Guthrie, or Earl Robinson written in that tradition. And eventually, we were absolutely flooded with protest songs, so that the most up to date protest songs, often of questionable aesthetic value, began to crowd out traditional music entirely. So that "folk song" came to be identified as something with a fashionably left wing tendency rather than something rooted in a tradition.

So, now we have the concept of "roots music." Which is what real live workers and farmers are likely to listen to. And some of those guys are conservative. And they have some good songs, too. My favorite is Okie from Muskogie. I don't agree with its sentiments, but by God, as a song it beats hell out of Blow'in in the Wind. As a song, it beats anything Phil Ochs or Joan Baez ever wrote.

So, as long as there are conservatives in society, I'm glad some of them are in Mudcat, and I'm glad they speak up. Folk music is supposed to be the music of the people, not some ingrown, politically correct band of prigs. So thank God for guys like Doug R. They save me from the unwelcome role of being the village conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:04 AM

The "hyphenated English composer" and collector was Vaughn-Williams, of course. Sorry about the lapse.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:33 AM

I thought maybe it was just some people I hang out with! Not many- but I have some friends who, no matter how much poverty they see, think that a certain group of people is just rolling in the dough. For instance, tribal Alaskans - I have a couple of friends who think that the tribal people in Alaska receive so much money from their corporations they wouldn't have to work if they didn't fritter it away on pull tabs (form of lottery)and costume jewelery. No matter how often you point out the official figures that corporate shareholders get, the very next time the subject comes up, they hold the same view. It's true that the tribes get their dividends once and even twice a year, when there is a profit- and it's true that the cab companies look forward to the extra money they make that week- but my friends (related to each other) swear that they get that money EVERY month.

Oh, and as for what they see at the grocers and other stores! The steaks, the toys, the fancy shoes! Where they are supposed to buy, I can't think. Maybe with all the money they are raking in, they should have the decency to have the food and other bought stuff delivered to their door?

I can't imagine that any one of us would want to have someone else tell us what to buy or not buy or even to take notice of what we buy. And I think it's an accepted phenomenon that people without goals or even hope tend to get rid of their found money pretty quickly. Any remedy has to start at the other end...

Strangely, I never see these things. I've frankly never noticed someone buying steaks or hamburger, for that matter. I don't expect that it's any of my business.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: leprechaun
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 02:36 AM

I love you toadfrog!

Someday the anarchists, who don't want any laws, will take over the world. Then they'll make laws that nobody can have any money. And of the money nobody can have, no single person or entity can control more than fifty dollars worth of the money they don't have. That way there won't be any rich people for the anarchists to get envious of and want to eat them.

Somehow magically everything will just get done without anybody dictating to other people that it should get done. Um, because nobody will be the boss except the righteous people who won't be bossy so the liberals won't feel like getting mad at them. Then everybody can eat whatever they want as long as nobody makes a profit off the food because selling stuff is a capitalist thing and capitalism is evil, you know.

By golly, you think people are hungry now?

Then Doug R and toadfrog and I can be the radicals and make protest music and act like we're the only people smart enough to know the truth about anything.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:06 AM

Properly speaking a conservative ought to be someone with the basic philosophy that if, it ain't broke don't fix it, and that unless it can be demonstrated that any proposed change is necessary, and represents a clear improvement, it'd be better to stick with the old ways.

That seems to me an excellent philosophy, and that many people who are left-wing or liberal or whatever you like to call it share. Especially people who value old songs and old music and old customs.

But it is a philosophy which is poles apart from that of the kind of conservatives who would tear the world apart to make a bit of money, and who think the sun shines out of the rear end of the rich and the powerful. Call that kind of thing progressive or call it regressive, call it conservative or liberal, either way it's the road to hell.

And in England at present, that's an attitude which is just as characteristic of New Labour as it is of Conservative. Which means that both parties are betraying their principles and their traditions in a different way. (And in America it appears to me much the same story, but perhaps with even less regard for the deserted principles.)

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST,Dylan
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:06 AM

Tony Blair and the "New" Labour PARTY well if thats not a conservative then I dont know what is. He goes around saying labour but they have done worse than the real Tories when it comes to looking after the poorest people in society but allows the growth of individual fortunes and wealth. A little bit of a harsh reality when the party that he leads was bult on socialism and was there to protect the common working man which would give them a voice. So there you go thats a true conservative defined but dressed in a lawyers suit

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: smallpiper
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 07:12 AM

someone who hasn't seen the joke yet

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 09:13 AM

Leprechaun, um, what? In another more probable scenario, if we had a maximum wage, we wouldn't need a minimum wage. Yes, I do think people are hungry now.


   It's odd that many people think something like taxing the rich is a radical storybook notion, when it would simply be a return to the days that gave us things like the G.I. Bill. Here conservatives defend the new, the increasingly impractical imbalance, as though it were an ancient verity written on some stone tablet. Personally I defend economic inequities, to a very large degree, but not quite a friggin' huge culturally insane degree. I don't envy wealthy people.

   I remember somebody touring colleges with a book about whether the world's resources were going to be sufficient to feed the world's population. Sort of a moot point, since it doesn't happen anyway.

I wonder just how persons who believe that government can't do anything right, also decide it's their calling.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 09:20 AM

What an intelligent, thoughtful political thread. And here I thought that was an oxymoron.

What is a "conservative"? First of all, a person. Labels are an oversimplification which too often help us to identify those we feel superior to. Same goes for "liberal" (over here, often accompanied by the phrase "bleeding heart." The same is true of Christian, Atheist and jew. To paraphrase Leadbelly, "folks is folks, sure enough." I like to think of myself as a progressive independent liberal conservative. That way I have everything covered.

A few weeks ago, my group did a program for an international gathering of what are called over here "half-way houses." They are just what they say they are... a place where recovering drug addicts, the mentally ill, the abused and rejected can try to work their way back into the community in a protected, supportive environment. There were people from all over the United States, and even a group from South Korea. We were asked to perform by an old friend of mine.
While we were sitting with him, waiting for the program to start, the subject of politics came up, and he said that he is a compassionate conservative. A few noses imperceptibly crinkled, and you could see thought baloons above the heads of some people saying, "Yeah, sure." Ten years ago, when the church I was going to celebrated it's 100th Anniversary, my friend was on the church committee planning the celebration. It is a small church... just a couple of hundred people without vast resources. But, my friend felt very strongly that before money was spent on a new church organ (which was desperately needed) or any other church improvement, that $100,000 should be spent in the community to help those who don't have the resources to help themselves. That was a lot of money for the church to raise, but he challenged the congregation to do it. And we did. We bought a van to transport the handicapped for one organization, and a van to provide a way for families to visit a member who was in prison. At the presentation of the van for the handicapped, a young, mentally retarded woman read a very simple, touching poem that she had written to the members of the church, thanking them for the gift. It was my friend (the compassionate conservative) who was the driving force in that group of people. Some of them are conservative, some of them are liberal, some are independent, but most of them are caring people. They were trying to practice what was preached to them.

I have several wonderful, loving, generous, friends who are Atheists. I have family members who are muslim. I have a wonderful son who is an Agnostic. And some fine friends who are politically conservative, many more who are liberal, and some who don't give a damn about politics. Labels and words don't make the person. It's what you do with what you've been given.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 10:06 AM

There are a million different notions of what a conservative is. It depends on where and when. In Soviet Russia, a conservative might have been someone who wanted to return to the glorious days of Stalin...or of Lenin...or just someone who wanted to maintain the old system and prepare for a final world confrontation with the evil capitalist West.

The amusing thing is, those guys were the deadly enemies of American conservatives. They were both out to destroy each other utterly. This indicates to me that the true enemy of the conservative is not the liberal, but the conservative on the opposite side of a given conflict between nations or ideaologies! :-)

I think the real issues generally divide along these lines...the rights of individuals versus the collective rights of the community...and the rights of the privileged (whether corporate CEO's or Communist Party bigwigs) over the rights of the common people.

Look to those concerns for where the real struggles lie in this world. Equality is not easily achieved when a privileged oligarchy runs the show, has the money, owns the media, and has the firepower as well.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 02:39 PM

I sometimes believe the term 'conservative' implies simply that one believes all good things are brought to us by the "old boy's club". BTW, in the states, most 'conservatives' have reservations about the inclinations of conservation... ?:^)

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 02:46 PM

Conservatives believe (to a greater degree than "liberals") that economic health is based on productivity, not money -- and that, therefore the possible size of the economy is not as strictly limited (in other words, more simply, the economy is not a "pie" to be divided. It is a growing thing of indeterminate size)...
...and in a related manner, believe that when economies are tied down by people with the intent (however honorable) to make sure that some don't have too much -- the poor are the first to suffer.

Conservatives believe in constitutionally limited Government -- that's what the constitution does -- limits government.

Conservatives don't think there is anything inherently wrong with allowing market forces to reward ambition and worthy pursuits -- for instance, the fact that a man can increase his personal wealth by inventing something of value to society, that is seen by a conservative as a good thing -- not exploitation. It doesn't mean that conservatives don't believe that law is necessary to make sure illegal business practices don't occur.

Conservatives believe (to a greater extent than "liberals") that the federal government is too wieldy to be an effective tool to address local concerns as well as more local governments might...

...in a related vein -- they also believe that federal government, when too expansive, is too hard to police/keep tabs on/keep from corrupting....

...and in another related manner, conservatives believe (TAGET"L") that the odds are that the more centralized Government becomes, the more likely the "Peter Principle" is to take effect (people are promoted to the level of their incompetence) -- thus the country is left governed by the few -- and the few that are not necessarily competent...

...and in yet another related manner, you may be surprised at how many that are conservative regarding federal programs are considerably liberal concerning more local social programs (where they can actually participate).

Conservatives tend to see inherent, unintended unfairnesses in well-meaning federal programs, and don't, therefore, judge the value of a program on its intent, rather, they tend to judge a program on its success.

Conservatives are against affirmative action as a fix, not because they are racist -- rather because affirmative action is repugnantly racist in its assertion that a class or race of people is inherently ill-equipped to compete in an open market...
...and in a related manner, conservatives are willing to suggest that, while many (regardless of race) are in need of assistance, that assistance is given at some risk -- that what is supported (a non-productive lifestyle) will remain static when institutionalized, or even multiply in need.

Conservatives believe (TAGET"L") that the major role of FEDERAL government is national security -- a military. But the conservatives I know are more likely to shade to an isolationist view internationally. If they are inclined to engage militarily it is philosophically tied to security/defense.

"Social" Conservatives (and this now would tend to exclude the more libertarian-leaning) believe in the absolute right of a woman to choose -- to have or not have sex. That, among other reasons, is why a social conservative will tend to believe in stronger punishments for crimes like rape. But once there is a pregnancy involved the social conservative tends to believe that the burden of proof (of whether or not the baby is a human or not) for the right to kill the life is on the one wishing to do the killing, not on the baby to make its own defense.

Most "social" conservatives still make allowances for abortion in cases of rape or incest and allow as how this is not philosophically inconsistant because the woman did not comply in the choice to concieve, and so therefore should not be forced to bear the risk and liability incurred by what was not her choice.

Social conservatives are generally, philosophically for capital punishment with due process. This is not inconsistent with a pro-life stance because they assume a difference between the innocent life of a baby (who has made no choices legal or ill, made no judgements wise or un, made no social missteps calculated or non) and a criminal, judged by a jury of his peers, who has shown an unwillingness to live within a social norm that does value life.

Oh, and the conservatives I know don't believe in capital punishment because we are superior (intellectually, genetically, or any other way) to the criminal -- it is because we understand ourselves to be the same as any criminal and wish to make it less likely that we would act upon our baser instincts.

Many social conservatives are changing their minds on the capital punishment issue, not philosophically, but pragmatically, as it becomes increasingly more appearent that the pool of jurors avaiable for trials is incable of the logical thought process necessary to pass such a grave judgement (think OJ or Menendez).

Many conservatives are leading a movement away from the incarceration of non-violent criminals and, if it were possible to enact a viable program to work out having criminals repay their victims rather than serve time (which does nobody any good and only "trains" a better, smarter criminal), would vote for it tomorrow.

Finally, this is meant to be a philosophical discussion. Pragmatically, finding ways of politically expessing a "conservative" philosophy in a political atmosphere of few, if any, purely conservative politicians to vote for, leads to compromises through a maze that rarely ends up anywhere near purity.

just my humble opinions and observations

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:54 PM

But then if you were a Russian conservative you'd believe rather a different set of things.

The true goal of any revolutinary is to try to achieve a society in which is good enough to want to conserve.

The most crass sound bite of recent years maybe was the one adopted by Bill Clinton about wanting to be "a friend to change" - as if somehow all changes were to be welcomed, rather than the true situation which is that some changes are to be welcomed, some tolerated and some resisted with all our might.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 04:13 PM

Yeah. The definitions become problematic when you cross international borders. My hubby, Jack the Sailor, calls himself a conservative. And by the standards of the place where he grew up (Newfoundland, Canada), he is. I consider myself a liberal. And by the standards of the place I'm from (Eastern USA), I am. But my political and social philosophy is much more like that of JtS. And by JtS's definition of the terms "conservative" and "liberal", he considers DougR to be a liberal.

(I always get a really big kick out of that last bit.)

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:39 PM

Thanks John Hardly, for a good, broad, thoughtful overview.

That law is necesary to prevent unlawful business practices is a bit of a tautology, and I assume you mean unethical or immoral practices. Maybe we've become accustomed to side-stepping those expressions, but there's really no way to avoid that we have our values.

   I disagree in matters of degree in many respects. Simply for example, affirmative action is a counterbalance to a pretty demonstrable inequity. Anyone in business knows that contacts, friends, family, can work in one's favor. It's easy to pretend that merit is what gets people jobs and pay, so that race is not a factor, but it is, and not just race, but mere Cuteness makes a scientifically demonstrable difference in hiring practices. Results matter in the end, but one has to be given a chance, based on a value judgement. The myth is that a business is run like a business. But it is run according to the values and culture of those who run it, whatever God-like judgement they pretend to have or represent. Affirmative action is a necesary, temporary, evil. Like a labour union, it's a stupid thing made necesary by something even stupider, more evil.

   I don't think the health of an economy is based on money or "productivity" but on what we value, don't you think?

   Again, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:53 PM

Thank you, John Hardly for your lucid and accurate views. There were a couple of obvious blunders and a few areas where one could cavil, On the whole, however, I think you said it. You have described every genuine conservative I know. Isn't it a pity so few of them are active and successful in republican politics.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 06:06 PM

Basically McGrath is correct. The word "conservative" suggests a person who is suspicious of ideas like change, "progress," and the perfectability of mankind. By that standard, I'm a fairly conservative guy. And "liberal" suggests generous, tolerant, etc. Not exactly the same thing as revolutionary or even "progressive."

But historically, "conservative" has usually meant an appoligist for privilege. In the time of Edmund Burke (who was a great thinker, just as Karl Marx was a great thinker) the two ideas of conservatism seemed synonomous, because the French Revolution was the biggest engine for change. But if it was then, it sure isn't now.

"Conservatives" in the United States are, among other things, on the way to creating a society which disparities of wealth and power so great as to make the idea of democracy a joke. They want to abolish the institutions of the New Deal, including Social Security. As a small-c conservative, I'd as soon keep those institutions, thank you. And I'd just as soon conserve enough of the environment so that the human race has a chance of lasting at least another 100 years. And I'm enough of a conservative to want to hang on to some of the ideas of the old left, about a good life for working people and equality. I'm not such a red-hot about mashing gun owners and church goers. I guess I'm such a Liberal, I think we should live and let live a bit.

So as an old-fashioned liberal and former socialist, am I a conservative? I'm sure McGrath would think so. But if Leprechaun knew me better, I think he would disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 06:41 PM

I have seen attempts at makeing short, pithy statements about what liberals/conservatives or Democrats/Republicians are, but they end up sounding like "ain't never heard a horse sing one"...for example " Democrats want to make laws everyone to make everyonebelieve like them, Republicans want to make laws to make everyone be like them."...not very useful, huh?

there are SO many things that are involved in a definition:

How should money be controlled and/or regulated, and who should be allowed to do it? (perhaps the one that is most used and least acknowleged)

What 'moral values' are most important in society, and are they absolute or relative? (This 'sort of' means, should established religion have ANY direct/official input to the structure....but not just that)

How should laws be designed in order to balance the perceived "National Interest" against individual interests & desires?

How sacrosanct is 'privacy', and who decides when it can be invaded and for what purposes and for how long?

What should be the relationship between national government and state/local government?

Who should be allowed to own weapons, and what kind and with what restrictions?

.............there are surely more issues, and the ones I noted can be re-phrased and re-cast, but you see the problem-- as one begins to answer these questions, he/she begins to form an extremely complex matrix of beliefs and attitudes, and often, people will discover that they do not really HAVE a clear position on some issues, but merely identify with some group or single issue that 'tends' to draw them into an automatic allegiance to other ideas.

When you add to this the confusion that arises when people agree on some idea or practice or law...but, for different reasons, and you see why 2 divisions and 2 political parties is not adequate!...In Israel, for example, there are many little splinter parties, who form temporary alliances, but can barely tolerate each other. This has its advantages and disadvantages...*wry grin*

I, for example, favor more restrictions on immigration than we currently have...just as a neighbor of mine does...but for VERY different reasons and with VERY different attitudes. You see the same thing regarding the death penalty and gun control...so are they both conservative if they want 'less' gun control?...not necessarily.

One of the difficulties is that so many people "throw the dart and then draw the bullseye around it"...meaning that they find a position/principle/goal that they favor emotionally, then go looking for ANY reasons to justify it. And when two people who disagree on the GOAL argue, they often find themselves not even able to share enough language and definitions to conduct a dialogue!...They just talk past each other and shout!

**IF** we would make a long list, like I started with, of a lot of 'issues', and a sub-list of as many positions (and yes, SUB-postitons for many) about these issues as we could think of, we could 'sort of' draw a graph and map where in a general spectrum we stood....and would probably be bored to tears and confused before we finished...*wry grin*.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 07:47 PM

Labels just get in the way. No one fits any mold exactly. Take George W BUsh, for example. Conservative? Compassionate conservative? Well, if conservatives want to keep things the same then I'd have to say the guy is a flaming "liberal". I mean, how can he really have any concept of America before Social Security since he wasn't alive then?
But we all know that if he had it in his power to just unplug it, along with Civil Rights, Medicare, ect. he do it in a heart beat. Sound purdy "liberal" to me...

What am I missing here?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 08:53 PM

Carol, I know exactly what you mean. I worked at one job where I was suspected of being the second most conservative person there. Six months later I worked at a job where I was branded the local liberal to be argued with constantly. In both cases the labels were applied from an isolated statement about current events. Thus, I usually just keep my mouth shut in public discussions where opinions are strong. In my experience, very few people are open-minded enough to calmly listen to another's views and to try to analyze the words being used. So very often we are really talking about the same thing with different words. For anyone who has studied logic as a discipline, most political conversations are ludicrous. And those round table discussions on TV absolutely drive me crazy. I simply can't think in half-thoughts going in many directions at once.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 09:22 PM

I am thrilled to read this entire thread and see no attack on peoples'belief systems. I tend to fall generally in to the fiscal Conservative catagory, however, I am pro choice and would love to see some gun control. I don't really fit in to any mold I guess, but it is nice to see people interacting without all the venom frequently encountered in these type threads

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST,Taliesn
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 11:24 PM

Well I just have to chime in here as there are two major camps of the Amercian-branded Conservatives not mentioned in this thrwad that distinguished themselves during the rise of the so-called , self-stylized "Reagan revolution".

What makes them so very interesting is how they pretend to compliment one another in some sort of outward solidarity yet fundamentally conflcit with one another in practice and in rhetoric.

The 1st embraces the social conservatives enough to make the alloy . This would be the "Constitutional Conservatives".
These are the ones that strive for the smallest "g" government possible at "every" turn and always strive for "States rights" until it's time to go for their turn at raiding the Federal honey-pot .
All so-called "conservatives" in Congress ultimately go for the honey or for tax holidays for their key constituents/contributors just like the moderates and liberals or they'd be voted out of office as well which always undercuts their sense of "conservative" purity.
They content themselves by going for lucretive military contracts, prisons, or infrastructure so private enterprise doesn't have to pay for causeways to absolve them of costs ( access to mines, oil fields, logging,etc.are the usuual suspects here ). I will give some of them credit for not being averse to using the term "corporate welfare" as a criticism, but more on that later.

This general group includes the "social Conservatives" whom are inarguably predominanted by the fundamentalist to orthodox Christian denominations. Charity begins in the home/ community and should ultimately "replace" any and all Gov't intrusion....in theory anyway....

These conservatives also share a bridge to the "libertarians" whom promote the dream of gong back to a pure frontier ,"everyone for themselves" , anything goes so long as it's on your property and doesn't impinge on your neighbor type of distopia with zero central gov't outside of National defense and the Federal courts.
Cponservative A,mericans should be reminded that one of the key reasons for creating that first colonial government was for a last word court system to resolve disputes over propertry & uphold contracts . Ofcourse a lot of such disputes were still settled by the "law of the jungle" ( ie: whom could marshal the better thugs or guns for hire. "Libertarians" take note )

They haven't figured out taxes yet as they always have someone trying to promote complete tax avoidance where possible by citing the "illegitmiacy" of the Fed tax. I won't go into detail here, but rest assured it's well represented .

This "ideology" also feeds the various "militia movments" merging with fundamnetalist White supremicists whose fever pitch culminated in the Timothy MacVie atrocity of Oklahoma City where the true heartland small-"c" conservatives were the most outraged by the militas in their midst and they let them know in no uncertain terms hence activity has damped down ever since.

I could go on ,but I need to now introduce the "other" vast group emerged to prominance during the Reagan revolution ;these are what I've come to classify as the "Economic Conservatives";
The no-compromise Lassez Faire "global free-traders", supply-siders , anti-regulation on busness. Nobel Laureate Economist ,and self-described Ayn Rand "libertarian" Milton Freidman was the leader of this movement. Free market uber alles with Hong Kong's pre-Beijing reversion state held up as the purest "free market" shining city on a hill.

These are the ones whom never saw "corporate welfare" that they didn't like ,hell try to influence ,while always working against ALL gov't oversight ,let alone enforcement , of their will to be free of any gov't intrusion which is "the" reason for being for the "trans-national" corporations whom really have no allegience to any country till they need some muscle or some bailout.

They clash with the Constitutional Conservatives because they promoted the giving away of constitutionally-defined issues of "Sovereignty" to GATT ,then NAFTA, now the WTO ( World Trade Org ) which the Brits especially are aware of in their cautious approach to the joining the EU issue.

Ultimatelyit boils down to upholding consitutionally defined "principals" that are above being sold out in favor of pure market ideology.
Pat Buchannan would be the most obvious embodiment of the "Consitutional Conservative" side while Newt Gingrich was proud to make the point that Clinton could *not* have gotten NAFTA passed without the support of the Republican-controlled House & Senate.

This should add some sadly needed perspective in this thread.
Yes, individual conservatives can be the "salt of the earth", true humanitarians and truly intellectually honest in presenting their views while expressing true tolerance in entertaining opposing views that are as intellectually honest.
Some even laugh at the contradiction in the right-wing rhetoric about being anti-intellectual , as if there was no such thing as a "Conservative Elite" , while standing foresquare for ever-higher "education".

However what the "leaders" of these diametrically opposed "Conservative" camps do "in their name" is another stort entirely because it affects us all.

......and all that said ,guess which camp holds sway in the Bush#2 White House. Yeah , that's right ,the "supply-side" retreads form good old "New World Order" Bush #1 plugged in through former Bush#1 Sect. of Defense , former Haliburton Oil servicing corporation become Vice President Dick Cheney whose wife Lynn Cheney is he right wing's answer to Hillary.

Bottomline : Dubya is predominantly run by the "Economic Conservatives" while attempting to cate/pande to the Christian/Constitutional Conservatives , but that big old Highly Centralized Big Gov't monstrosity-to-be , *the Dept. of Homeland Security* , is kinda like the dead elephant in the middle of the living room of the Constitutionally conservatives which may one day become the dead horse's head in the bed for those that speak out too much or too effectively.

That should leave some spicey intellectual beef-jerky to chaw on for the time being.

G'night all ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: jimmyt
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 09:57 AM

Take back what I said about people taking a less confrontational stance! Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:11 AM

Great comments here. Thanks especially to Jerry Rasmussen and John Hardly.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:17 AM

toadfrog - your assumptions about what conservatives are in America are simply wrong. They are based upon the bad things opponents of conservatives say about them. If I ask my dog dog why she hates cats, she will tell me all the terible things that makes her react sooo violently when she sees one. If I assume she is correct in her description of cats, I will hate them too. If I look for myself and consider the cat's own descriptin as possibly valid - well, I ought to at least have a better frame of reference for making my own judgement. AND that judgement will be modified as time goes by and I gain more experience with more cats.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:23 AM

of course ya just can't talk politics without someone's hate and bigotry coming out! But most of the comments are balanced. Thanks y'all!

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Porky the Buffet Slayer
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:27 AM

Jed,

Your dog sounds like a classic southern canine felinist. Most canine felinists hate cats because they've either been taught to hate by their masters, or because they've never had the opportunity to get to know any cats.

Canine felinism is not something that puppies are born with. It is learned. Cats and dogs that live together in integrated households get along very well together.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Declan
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 11:15 AM

Coming back to UK politics, if the definition of Conservatism is wanting to conserve the past and resitance to change, then it is the Old Labour left wingers who are the conservative wing of the Labour Party. It all gets very confusing.

"I often think it comical, Tra la la, Tra la la,
That nature always does contrive, tra la la, la la,
That every boy and every girl that's born into this world alive,
Is either a little liberal, or else a little Conservative, Tra la la"

From Gilbert & Sullivan (Iolanthe I think).

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 11:28 AM

a conservative is by definition a hypocrite, that is, someone who knows (they think) how everyone else should behave, and wants to tell everyone how to behave, but demands to be allowed to do whatever he or she wants to do at all times without criticism or constraint. This holds true no matter if your talking fiscal or social or religious conservatism.

Liberals on the other hand want everyone to be able to do whatever they want to do, as long as they don't step on other peoples toes. A much more humane and sensible attitude, as far as I am concerned.

a non-apologetic, die-hard, bleeding heart liberal and proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 11:39 AM

but, Bill Kennedy, taxing the rich fairly or limiting how they do business IS stepping on their toes *grin*....just ask 'em

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 12:19 PM

I have to agree with Mary in These Parts and John Hardly in a kind of mixed combination, in that I miss the thoughtful, well reasoned conservative voice. I had very little logic, but took to it, and even just the top ten logical errors (#1, the false dichotomy) threshes most political discourse. Cynical meaningless sound-bites and point-scoring tend to be the rule.

   I tend to call myself an old-fashioned liberal, although I never understood the U.S. Soviet-sympathy-syndrome. As an artist, I just don't get it, the free expression problem was too big for me. I can't do the bleeding heart tag either--I believe in doing the right thing in cold blood, colder the better. Sentimental pleas, heart-warming stories, feel-good stuff that brings us all closer together--that stuff makes my skin crawl.

I don't know about progressive--I don't intellectually believe history is moving along toward some utopia, but on the other hand, pragmatically, some things have clearly moved ahead, and so, what the hell.

But I find that the things that bother me most about liberals are a fairly safe topic for discussion with my conservative friends, I do pretty well with that.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 12:23 PM

ah Bill, you just prove my point!

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 01:26 PM

Dogs love cats! ( ...especially fried to a light crisp with just a little salt and pepper ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: DougR
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 02:04 PM

John Hardly: That is a well thought out post and I generally agree with all of it.

Bill Kennedy: I can't say the same for yours :>)

I think we depend too much on the dictionary definition of conservative and liberal. There are conservatives who are more moderate in their views than other conservatives (on the abortion issue for example and maybe even gun control)just as there are shades of liberalism.

I also believe that the definition of liberal and conservative differs from country to country. In some countries the terms "conservative" and "liberal" are used to identify political parties. Such is not the case in the U. S.

Those are my opinons. This I know, though, there are some democrats that are just as conservative as their republican counterparts. Conservatism and liberalism cannot be assigned to any one political party in the United States. Barry Goldwater could never have been elected to the senate from Arizona had it not been for the votes of conservative democrats.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 03:35 PM

food for thought: (warning..this food will take awhile to digest)

What is a Liberal...and a Conservative...and a Libertarian

What is a Liberal, by John Kennedy

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 03:41 PM

and!!...2 guesses about the leaning of the guy who wrote THIS page! What is the liberal left?

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 04:04 PM

Interesting, Bill, but none of them are very enlightening. It does, however, graphically illustrate why there is so much confusion about the definitions and why, for any serious discussion of politics, the terms are essentially useless--except, of course, when one wants to slap a pejorative term on the other guy.

A pox on both their houses.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: toadfrog
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 04:11 PM

J. Marum: I think it is entirely fair, historically as opposed to logically, to say that a conservative is an "appologist for privilege." Conservatives today say they love the market system. Conservatives in Burke's time hated it. What they all have in common is wanting to conserve the privileges of the dominant class. Or if "class" sounds too Marxist, the dominant "group."

Conservatives in the U.S. claim to believe in a variety of principles, including family values, small government, equality of opportunity (but not equality of people), and states rights. But they are not consistent. When a corporation lays off all the employees in a town, it destroys families and destroys community. Don't say that to American conservatives. They will say, "what are you, some kind of commie?"

Conservatives claim to be for minimal government interference. But note, that only means interference with business, not with political freedom or the lives of individuals. John Ashcroft is a conservative.

And "libertarian" conservatives (who are the very worst kind) will never admit that power concentrated in the hands of a corporation or extremely wealthy individual is as dangerous to personal freedom as government power. Basically libertarians, on the Left as well as the Right, hate government because they hate democracy, and because government is the only democratic institution we have.

"Conservatives" have said, for about 150 years, that economic equality is a wrong idea, but equality of opportunity is what counts. To be consistent, they would have to advocate abolition the institution of inheritance. (Note that I'm not advocating that.) It seems quite clear that if really large sums of money are inherited, "equality of opportuntiy" is a joke. Don't say that to a conservative. He'll ask if you are some kind of commie. He will say that "death taxes," are terribly unfair, because they limit inheritance just a tad.

Note, I'm not saying that conservatives are always wrong. Note that I admire Edmund Burke. Earl Robinson, the Red folkie who first explained folk music to me, sounded just like Burke. I am not saying that conservatives are "hypocrites" because they are inconsistent. We are all inconsistent. But there is only one common thread in conservative thought. Conservatives are always in favor of maintaining privilige. Or as in the United States since 1980, expanding the power and wealty of the privileged class, until democracy is finally just a joke.

Am I missing something? Is there any "conservative principle" that would ever apply where it would diminish the power of the wealthiest?

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 05:02 PM

In America, our two major parties are NOT liberal v. conservative. They are conservative (Democrats) v. reactionary (Republicans).

It is the Democrats who (by and large) want to keep things as they are, and Republicans who want to change things – by putting them back the way they used to be.

Republicans' agenda: 1. Require prayer in public schools. 2. Criminalize burning the flag. 3. Criminalize abortion. 4. Abolish or reduce estate taxes. 5. Abolish or reduce tax on capital gains. 6. Abolish minimum wage (or allow it to fade into irrelevance by inflation). 7. Deregulate business. 8. Reduce support of public education, welfare, retirement benefits, public works, and practically all government services (except things like roads, which are used by business, and the military, which can be used to seize other people's resources). 9. Lower taxes.

Democrats' agenda: ? (None of the above.)

No wonder Democrats have such a hard time articulating what they stand for.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 05:02 PM

Some central points that make me a liberal, and which undermine a conservative view of economics which may otherwise seem sensible.

There is a fundamental difference between "production" for use, and production for sales. It makes all kinds of difference. Anyone who cares to consider it can see that.

   Programs like welfare may not reliably help the recipients, but then, they were never intended to, they're just a steam release-valve, and have never been anything else. They protect the wealthy from violence, destruction of property and resources. People who complain about their tax dollars going to help these people can't or won't do math. Their dollars go to the wealthy, the pennies they wouldn't bend over to pick up go to the poor.   

Nor for that matter was a jury trial intended to provide accuracy--for that one would obviously use trained professionals. The jury system was intended to prevent government control of the courts, and for that safeguard accuracy is sacrificed. It's rather slow that anyone would be beginning to think twice about that, in my opinion. The death penalty isn't worth the mistakes.

There are fundamental feelings about the world that influence our views of facts and matters of degree, and for me it seems that conservatives must believe in the spirit of a game--some parts of moral life being considered somehow out of bounds--and that view is moreover colored by moral vanity--we "create" jobs, we succeed and deserve as much as we can get, we are a superior kind of person--always to someone, savages, people who don't matter. I was taught in school that a work-ethic and moral rectitude begat American capitalism, pluck! productivity!--but that's a view that ignores, among other matters, resources such as the ground beneath one's feet.

Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative?
From: smuggler
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 08:03 PM

I always think back to the seventies when the Republicans wouldn't let me into the US and the Soviets wouldn't let me into the Soviet Union. Two huge conservative governments so upset by one little voice just out of university!
Blair continues the conservative tradition in Britain, the legacy of Thatcher and Reagan ensures few have the passion for a world that is outraged by hunger and poverty when so many countries are potential hot spots in the world.
A conservative to me is one who is happy to see a permanent underclass, whether social or economic, to provide capitalism with its fodder for the next cycle of profit. It is amoral
Throughout my 30s and ealrly 40s conservatives wanted to turn back the clock to a victorian Britain, now our conservative PM wants to push us into an american market economy and public services. No thanks.
Once again, I have no one who speaks for me in my government, but there are many voices amongst ordinary people. Despite the above, we live in promising times.