BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans

Subject: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 09:04 AM

Hello Sailors,

I'm looking for anyone who may have bought Texas Dory Plans or know what the current status is of JIm Orrell's catalog of plans.
   Greg has the boat bug bad and I never lost it. So I'm putting a guitar project on hold infavor of a large use of shop space. Any one have any ideas. I'm thinking a 26' headroom cruiser with an outboard well and a a small, split sailing rig. May consider leaboards in favor of the center board well.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 09:13 AM

Twenty-six feet of headroom? Don, you puttin' in a grand ballroom? You surely must have a heckuva lot of work space; makes me wonder about the size of the guitar you were goin' to build.

'Course, you DID say that it was a *Texas* dory....

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 09:42 AM

G'day Don,

Check this Yahoo Group Link - the guy who posted it may be of some help.

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 09:54 AM

'Dynamite' Payson could be worth checking too - he's got a Bolger 25' Sharpie plan - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Willie-O
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 10:15 AM

Some twenty years ago I started my first and only boatbuilding attempt, with plans for a little 11' rowing double-ender called a "Dory Dinghy" (and the plans were from Texas, in fact). I built the frames, but the project fractured when I realized I had not the skills or tools to scarf-join plywood. In retrospect I don't think it would have been very stable, but I really don't know.

A few years ago I ordered plans for a Whisp (16' lightweight lapstrake-ply rowing skiff designed for Lake Champlain on calm days) Which are around here somewhere. I'd really like to find the plans in fact cause now I finally have the tools, some skill in using them, and best of all I got my new shop closed in this summer--28 x 12' and it's all mine mine mine!

My first project though, I think, will be to rebuild my venerable el cheapo Folbot kayak and put a lightweight cedar deck on instead of the original canvas. Should build a new one but maybe that's next.

Also I'm reading strip-built canoe books...a close contender. And/or, my friends down the road have a 17' cedar/canvas tripping canoe which needs recanvassing due to improper storage, and they don't want to keep it...a tempting prospect. The woodwork is in real good shape.

So many possibilities, so little decisiveness! Life is kind of good, actually.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 10:43 AM

Dammit Rap! Did I leave out that comma again?
"A 26', headroom, dory." (meaning standing headroom where I used to build fishing boats) even a Texan ain't that swell headed.

Willie, still got the plans? And scarffing isn't all that hard to do, or necessary. Most Dory designs are fine with butt joints and a well sealed plate. Your lap strake ship sounds fun. They are a lot more effort than a hard chine slb sided dory type. BUT they are rewarding to look at impressive when you say 'Yup, built it my self."

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 12:44 PM

I sent to the states for plans to build an Adirondack chair, and went to price the materials. To build it in western red cedar will cost me just over £100, [$170] so it's on hold for the moment.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Mark Clark
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 01:12 PM

In my experience, a dory is an open, double-ended coastal workboat. The headroom is virtually unlimited. A dory is a pulling boat and, being double-ended, really has no place for an outboard moter. So what is a dory like in Texas?

The “26' of headroom” reminds me of a friend who, seeing an add by someone wanting a 14' wide jon boat, remarked that he had a jon boat that was 14' wide but it was only 3' long. <g>

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 01:29 PM

A forester friend of mine (a professor at Everett Community College in Washington State, on Puget Sound) built himself a sailboat--of concrete. Ironic, eh?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 02:11 PM

I'm with Mark on this one. I always thought a dory was one of those small rowboats which they stacked on the deck of the Cod fishing boats.

Ya know pointed at each end and tapered sides so that they nest.

The only boat that I have built was a 16ft punt. We used locally available wood which was cedar siding. It was great fun for a couple of seasons. By the third year it became obvious that siding is not the material of choice for boat building.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 02:37 PM

Years ago my grandfather and his sons built a boat in the loft of his garage/barn. When he found that they couldn't get it down the steps or out the old hay-loading door at the front, he cut the entire triangular-shaped front of the loft out and lowered the boat down. Then he rebuilt the front as a pair of double doors, just in case they ever built a boat up there again.

He also cut a hole in the floor and ceiling of the dining room so that his Christmas trees would fit.

And people think that _I'm_ a trifle odd at times.....

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 07:18 PM

Giok, more adirondack chair were built of pine than any other lumber.
They aren't meant to last forever. Build them out of what you have.
They built them out of cedar when it was available and in the Adirondacks cedar was everywhere. Build it out of any good wood if it is cheap for you.

Mark, you are correct to a certain extent. The Dory is a work boat of a specific hull type, generally tapered sides, flat bottom boats.
Altho' Swampscotts are round bilged. I have seen them 11' to 45' and either and with out any number and type of weather covers.

They are used as drift boats for white water work on the Colorado River and as fishing boats on the coast. Because of their cross section , kinda cork like, they become more stabile with more load.

Bert, that is also true, They were used by the cod fishing industry as you described. Usually under just twenty feet, astack of them were stowed on a deck and swayed over the side to fish the banks for cod.
Kendall could probably tell us more with greater accuracy.

The St Pierre Dory is a maritime Canada phenom. 26' or so, with a promounced shear higher in the bow and stern and built to take big water. They often had a cuddy up front and were fitted with a small Make/Break engine and were often pulled with oars.

They even have their own folk lore.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Hrothgar
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 06:28 AM

Rapaire, I really like your grandfather.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 11:58 AM

And all along I though a dory was a type of fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 01:17 PM

That's a dorado, Rap. I like your grandfather too!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Willie-O
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 09:03 AM

Giok, one thing Adirondack chairs wouldn't have been built from in the Adirondacks is western red cedar. Eastern white, logically enough, being the local material on this side of the Great Divide.

Well, I got so inspired yesterday I started rebuilding the (completely absent) cockpit of the 'yak. It was a perennial weak spot, since the original rim was 3/4 x 1/2" bent pine and there's always a tendency to lift the boat by grabbing said rim. To replace it with available material, I selected a curved piece of oak sawn as a rocking-chair rocker--I got a bunch of these at an auction once. I ripped it in two and routed a lip onto each piece (to hold a spray skirt, someday). Presto, cockpit sides. Real sturdy ones. (OK, it'll be substantially heavier, but I'd rather have the weight than watch it break again). Now I'm rebuilding the centre frames so there'll be something to attach the cockpit to!

Don, a couple of questions for the master. I think these frames are red oak--I know white would be better, but have you used or seen red oak used successfully in boatbuilding? And would you recommend finishing them before the deck goes on? I imagine spar varnish would be good, or do you think tung oil is better?

It was a good day in the shop. My super-funky old Beaver bandsaw didn't throw a blade, and the belt sander didn't shred a drive belt. Minor miracles both.   

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 09:46 AM

Good spar varnish has tung oil as its major component. Do not get polyurethane!

Contact Messing About in boats with a letter. There are certainly readers there who have had your problem. The address is:

Messing About in Boats
29 Burley Street
Wenham, Mass   01985--1943.

Phoning Bob Hicks directly won't help and Bob is not on line. He will give the same advice I just did, so this is your best bet.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 04:41 PM

Hi Willie,

Generally speaking, Red and White oak have similar properties. And on a boat you dry sail you could get away with red oak. The different grain structures between the two shouldn't be an issue. They both fasten and finish well. The big issues as I understand are white oak bends better when green or when steamed and white oak is greatly rot resistant which red oak is not. I think red oak will discolor from water more readily but as I said on dry sailed boat this shouldn't be an issue. As long as you pull the boat after each use and wipe down the bright work that is.

I think white ash is a better substitute for white oak especially on smaller boats. White ash will wander a bit while straight grained white oak stays pretty straight.

There are some strict traditionalistas who will tell you what I said is bunk regarding wooden boats but thats just opinion. If this is going on a Kyak and you can keep ahead of the maintenance, I say use the wood you have and enjoy the water.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 10:58 AM

If you want to build a kayak, the best structure is sitka spruce. It is both strong and light. Once the boat is built, varnish everything exposed. Red Oak is not a good boat building wood. Although it is initially strong, it needs to be thoroughly sealed to keep moisture from penetrating and encouraging the growth of fungus. Its cell structure encourages the retention of water.

If you wish to test this for yourself, put your mouth on the endgrain of a piece of red oak {Make sure it is not treated with antifungal poisons, first!] and blow through it. Then try the same with white oak. There really is a difference.

Ash is strong but it is heavy and soaks up water like mad unless it is properly sealed. It is easier to get oak or spruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 12:27 PM

Regionality comes into play alot with small boats. No doubt sitka spruce is best for the applications it is best for. The same can be said of any wood. Sometimes a substitute is required because of availability or cost. Many small boats; skiffs, dinghys, whitehalls, pulling boats in general were built with different woods when built in different places.
   Apple crotches were used as breasthooks, gussetts, and even knees on many, many small boats in the north east. White ash was used on smaller boats because of availability and other characteristics (Straight grain and bendability) when weight in small pieces was not an issue.
Don't use a second choice when a better one is available. But unless it is a safety issue don't let that second choice be the reason you don't go boating either.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 03:19 PM

Don, you are right and you are wrong. There is a large selection of woods available. Most lumberyards carry what the Spanish would simply call "maduro." The big chains sell red oak at white oak prices and expect you to be happy to get it. I have used osage orange and angelique for various applications. For certain applications, though, it is better to make the extra effort and pay what may turn into extra bucks to get the boat right. I have learned the hard way how difficult it can be to replace internal structure that has begun to deteriorate after the boat is complete. In terms of effort and emotional sweat, it is better to do it once, do it right and forget it. It is possible to get atlantic White Cedar through the mail for what it would cost you for lesser wood. The good lumberyards [read: national distribution] list in WoodenBoat and Messing About in Boats.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 07:02 PM

Hi EB.

I will agree it is always bedst to do it right and use the correct materials. But what is correct for one application isn't always right for the same application on another boat. Read what L. Francis Herreschoff had to say about recanvassing a deck. Use the cheapest natural cotton sheeting you could find. How it was bedded down was more important that the material that was bedded was his thought. I read the exact opposite recently in an old Small Boat Journal.

Pete Culler was infavor of using Long Leaf Yellow pine for decks and deadwood when weight wasn't an issue. And only God knows for sure what Phil Bolger thinks. :-)

My first live abord hull was a 40' Matthews stock cruiser. Mahoganey on bent white oak with 'Hoganey bright work. My second was a 30' Richardson cruiser with a cedar hull on bent white oak and 'hoganey. Both were strictly freshwater boats up to that point. Both hulls were strong and tight and both boats were built in 1935. Different woods doing the same jobs very successfully.

I'll bet you and I could kill a tub of stout and swap builders stories for hours. And swap the odd tune to boot.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 12:13 AM

More'n likely. My preference for light, tight woods comes from carrying small boats and building spars. I am currently building a 30' schooner and a 15' touring canoe. Has Small Boat Journal returned to the living? The last I saw [when I ended my subscription] they were devoted entirely to plastic power boats.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 12:44 AM

I always felt that 30' was the limit for schooner type rigs, and maybe too small at that. (Whose design) A yawl or even ketch at 30' was fine. I have a set of plans for a Jay Benford ketch rigged Dory at 26'.    H-28 is to me one of the perfect boats.

   My sail boat jobs were only two. Both Ferro-cement and both very succesful. A 60' Samson schooner and a 24' Benford Gaff rigged sloop. The rest of my commercial work was off shore fishers in steel, 32' to 110' long mostly combination draggers and trollers. But I also got 4 yachts in the bunch two 65' and an 80' based on the old Trumpy designs and one house boat built of a gulf shrimper hull.

Small Boat Journal is still gone. These were all back issues my son was gifted.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 08:45 AM

Well I've stirred up a lively discussion. The kayak in question is a very old, originally cheap Folbot kit boat. It was built with a fiberglass hull over a plywood frame (pine stringers), and a canvas deck. I don't expect it to last forever--I've had it for 20 years and it's at least 30 years old--but I have a sentimental attachment to it, and fixing it is a way of getting my feet wet in the shop, so to speak, and trying new things.

I have a fair amount of wood on hand, including an odd-shaped chunk of clear white oak. Ash is also available and eastern white cedar is plentiful in this area. For this project, I'm not planning to order anything in--strictly what's on hand.

Anyway, thanks for your help, guys.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 10:04 AM

Use the eastern white cedar for your framing. Once it's in place, varnish it or paint it. It should last longer than you will.

The reason for the small schooner is that I used to live on a 40' Stadel S model schooner. I discovered that I never used the after cabin. Ergo, I only need a 30' boat. This also makes cruising a lot cheaper.

As I am starting from scratch, except for the hull, I have the opportunity to design all the systems to meet my needs, rather than buy someone else's compromises. The hull is cold molded and I have just finished the basic fiberglas work. The ballast [2500#] will be poured this summer.

Power will be a genset running an electric motor attached to an outboard lower unit. An RO will run off the genset. The cockpit will have a hard top and removable sides, so it can fulfil the role of 'great cabin.' There will be solar panels atop the cockpit.

Booms will be wishbone on main and fore. The fore will be sprit rigged, in order to fill the space between the masts as thoroughly as possible. The main is gaff, with a permanently mounted topsail, the upper part of which will set separately in light wind. This topsail will have a wire bridle to perform the functions of separate peak and throat halliards.

As I am building for me, I only have to design well for function, not meet the needs of "Da Market."

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 11:08 AM

Sounds like a wunnerful project EB -- I am all over jealous!!

Aside from being bigger than you needed, what was your impression of the 40' Stadler S Schooner?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: GUEST,Ironmule
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 06:56 PM

Over on the Wooden Boat Magazine Builder's Forum , We've had a couple of folks inquiring about the plans.   The word is that Dynamite Payson sells them, but they aren't listed on his website. You have to contact him directly by mail or e-mail.


Jeff Smith

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 09:06 PM

Thanks Jeff, logged in and lurking among the postings.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 24 Jul 03 - 01:45 AM

The S hull schooner was a wonderful boat. The first time I came aboard her, there was a little chop and about a 5 knot breeze. She was at a mooring off City Island and, as we boarded, she spoke to us, saying "Well, it took you long enough, let's raise sail and go." Someone else got her that round but contacted me a year later and sold her to me. Even though she needed a lot of work, partly as a result of my ignorance, she was a true thoroughbred. On the sail from Atlantic City channel to Scotland light, she sailed herself with no one at the helm and made the trip in 9 hours. Every time she went out she handled whatever I threw at her and outsailed larger vessels. If she had been fastened with anything but galvanized steel, I suspect I would still be with her. As it is, certain parts are being incorporated into the new boat. Someone once said that I didn't sail her much because of the amount of work. Even so, I do not regret one minute of the 8 years I lived with the schooner Nettie K.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 10:59 AM

Hey boat builder guys, I need your advice.

I have started a brand new project borne of cabin fever. It is to be a dugout outrigger canoe. I "built" a double-outrigger kayak for my son using a flat (sort of flat) driftwood log we found and it worked pretty well, for a lightweight person, which got me thinking about something a bit more ambitious along those lines. I have always been kind of fascinated by the concept of dugouts--I think carving appeals more to me than fancy joinery, and I like seeing the boat hull emerge from the log.

Progress thus far: I located a dead cedar with a nice sweep in the butt, felled it and was fairly amazed to find the inside 100% sound (they're usually hollow in the center--I expected this not to be a problem cause hollowing the center is most of the work of building a dugout.)

I'm not working from plans of any kind, just measuring, eyeballing, and rough-shaping it with the chainsaw until it's light enough I can drag it up the shop. Starting with a 16' 8" log, 18" at the butt, 15" dbh (biggest I could find, that's why it's got to be an outrigger--narrow hull), I made vertical cuts off the stern and bow, then flipped it over and took a wedge off the stern at the bottom (so it will continue
the curve started by the sweep in the trunk, and make a nice exit). It's starting to look pretty good, then I notice the seam that starts three feet up from the butt, and runs the entire length of the hull from there, pretty much dead center up the tension wood (the convex side of the log). Explorations with utility knife show that it's a good 3" deep--and for the size of log I started with, I really can't expect to trim off the bottom until I get past the seam. I'm thinking that I'll have to go ahead and shape the hull, then hollow out the inside, (chainsaw and adze for the rough work) but by the time I get down to a bottom thickness of say, 2", that seam may be right through the hull. (Or else it will be a serious lengthwise weakness in the boat).

I think I may have to actually cut the boat lengthwise down the seam with the Sawzall, then clamp/glue/screw it together--d'ya think? It's certainly way too cold for any such operation for 2-3 months.

My question is, while I'm going ahead roughing out the shape, how should I protect the hull from more checking and splitting--especially as I expose endgrain? (Remember, it's outside in sub-zero temperatures). The tree's been dead for a number of years, but I really don't know how dry it is.

My plan for today is to use my Alaskan mill, guided by a 1' plank bent along the keep, to cut a curved flat bottom on the log--so I can use that as a reference surface as I shape the hull (shallow vee or multi-chine). I figure since this will at least expose the seam on the flat, I could also screw a flat keel along the bottom to close off the seam, either temporarily or permanently.
   
How's the schooner coming EBarnacle?

Willie-O
Staving off cabin fever one cut at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 11:21 AM

Willie, where are you? I have a friend who is active with the Canoe Nations groups in the Puget Sound and Olympic Penninsula area. Several boat builders in that group, making duggouts. PM me if you want me to forward any information to my friend in Tacoma. He might have some connections back east, who knows.

I went back through this thread, and saw the questions about Adirondack chairs. Norm on New Yankee Workshop made one, and later made a loveseat. I think he used baldcyprus.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 01:56 PM

Don't sweat the check in the wood.

First, do as much of the carving as you can. Then, check the moisture content [I suspect that the wood is dryer than you think.] If it is fairly dry, then toss it in the crick for a while [a couple of weeks] and see how much it swells up.

As the tree has been dead for a while with no sign of rot, I suspect the sap [which is what rot fungi love the most] is mostly out of the lignin. This means that what is left should be fairly light until you resaturate with water.

If the check is fairly small, under 1/4 inch, carefully install a stop [driven dowel coated with epoxy] about 6 inches past each end of the check. Your next step will depend upon how long the check is. If it is under a foot or so, let the boat dry for a week or so to allow the seam to expand slightly, clean it of loose fibers, caulk it with cotton and roofing cement an go boating. If it is much bigger than that, you will have to install "floors," supporting ribs which maintain the relationship between both sides of the structure. You can then fill the check with a putty of epoxy and wood powder. [You can use sanding dust for this application but the finer the dust, the better.]

Once you have made the hull solid, you can decide whether you need a ballast keel for the boat. Small sailboats, including canoes, do not need a ballast keel. I teach sailing in canoes and all we use is a leeboard. Never had a student get dunked yet. ah hu, ah hu.

If you find that the check does not go all the way through, you can fill it with a mixture of sawdust and beeswax unless you are in a part of the country where the beeswax will liquefy.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Jan 04 - 01:59 PM

Another option is to make the check dead center into the bottom and use it as the basis for a centerboard slot. You will still need floors and fore and aft bearers but, what you do depends upon how imaginative you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Willie-O
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 08:28 AM

Thanks for the tips EBarn. I went ahead and shaped the bottom with the mill yesterday--which went pretty well. The seam starts 3 feet from the stern, where it's pretty shallow, and runs all the way up the boat log and keeps on going, , and at the bow end it's pretty deep (judging from the next log up). It's also not really centered, but runs within 2" of the centerline. Thanks for the tip about how to put a stop in, I will do that where it stops near the stern. At the bow I guess I'll tie it together. And I guess I will have to put some kinds of floor timbers (courtesy title, they'll be pretty light) to hold it together, and use your crack-filling formula (when the warm weather comes.

I flipped it over and today I'm going to mill the sheer the same way I did the bottom. It's a nice revelation how handy an Alaskan mill is for cutting a curved surface within 1/8" of level. (To provide a level working surface, I levelled off the tree's stump and squared the end of the "boat"--very convenient and stable).

EBarn, you suggested: "If it is fairly dry, then toss it in the crick for a while [a couple of weeks] and see how much it swells up". Um, I could do this, it's sitting right on the creek bank, but why would I want to, exactly? Do you mean that the seam might close up? It might, (it's only a fat 16th wide at most), but it will still be there...and it ain't going to glue itself back together...eh?

Cedar is of course highly rot-resistant, but only the heartwood, not the sapwood, which I guess jives with your explanation--the sapwood layer is not very thick.

It's already starting to look like a boat, kind of. A real skinny one. OK, a badly bent rough-shaped torpedo...but that'll work!

SRS, sinz you esked, I am in the Ottawa Valley of eastern Ontario. Outrigger dugouts are of course the traditional native watercraft of this area, for enjoying the ocean surf, whaling, and repulsing the white devils...(not). I plan to take it down certain stretches of the Mississippi next summer. (Why not, it's only a mile away). Have I got you confused yet? For a musical reference to this Mississippi, look up "Whalen's Fate" or "Lost Jimmy Whalen", both 19th century ballads about the sad fate of a river driver twenty miles upstream from here.

I am having fun yet...

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 11:23 AM

If that's white cedar, there may be enough come and go to take up the 1/16th. If red cedar, seal it. Centerboards, despite their name, do not have to be on centerline as long as they are parallel to the major axis of the boat.

The fit on the stop should be snug but not tight or you will force the fibers apart.

Heartwood is good. It is the ideal when you go to the lumberyard and is often unobtainable because it has been sold to a higher bidder.

How narrow is narrow. Unless you are an experienced canoeist or kayaker, I recommend you don't go below 28" of beam. The touring canoe is 30" and is quite comfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 12:27 PM

Willie-O, it sounds pretty much like how dugouts were/are used on the northern end of the west coast. The Makah have resumed whaling, on a small scale. Sounds like you'll have plenty of local resources there where you are. A friend of mine in Minnesota was searching for a suitable log for the same reason such as you describe and had no luck. On the west coast there is still some very large western red cedar, and I believe we risked biological censure in mixing our species when teasing him about "pinus envy."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Willie-O
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 08:23 PM

I've got lots of resources, so to speak, but I don't have big logs. They just don't grow that big here. Eastern white cedar. I am an experienced paddler and don't need a wide boat, but this is going to be an outrigger precisely because I can't get a big enough log to build an effective one-piece monohull. I am more concerned about getting enough bouyancy from this small hull to carry myself and hopefully a passenger. I think it won't be a single-piece, anyway, I'm going to build up the sides a few inches out of necessity. (Otherwise the freeboard will be so low it will be fit only for ponds. I like big water.)

I got the sheer cut today and it looks kind of cool, but awful skinny...but it's definitely taking a canoey shape!

SRS, I had tongue firmly in cheek there. I am in interior waters and we rarely see whales or even seals. (Plenty white devils though).

W-O

EBarnacle, how is the schooner coming?

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Ironmule
Date: 27 Jan 04 - 10:11 PM

Hey WillieO. It sounds like you're past the point where this book can help much, but "Tidecraft; the boats of South Carolina, Georgia and Northeastern Florida, 1550-1950" by Fleetwood, isbn 0964251906 has some great dugout info. Its $45 retail, but you can get it via interlibrary loan, and it has a lot of detail on the woodchopping side of things. Many illustrations from the 1400-1600's of what kind of dugouts the Native American's were chopping. Then engravings and construction line drawings of the dugouts used by plantation owners in the 1700-1800's.

The Cajun Pirogue was a dugout, until sawmills made plank boards cheap and they built the same boat with boards. You could do worse than to follow those lines in making your boat. The dugout and pirogue are,,,,shall we say,,,,,somewhat lacking in stability! I've had some unplanned swims using mine. ;^)

There's several re-enacting web sites where some of the posters have built dugouts. http://blueheronmercantile.com/mb/ is available now just as an archive, and the threads of the other forums I frequent dealing specificly with dugouts have dropped off the edge.

PM me. Jeff Smith; or quicker, use [e-mail] so I don't have to remember to check my PM's

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 12:20 AM

Tongue in cheek is okay--though the Makah have started whaling in their ocean-going canoe. (Do you have sturgeon or something else very large?) That paragraph was mostly crafted to lead into the horrible pun. It's a weakness. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 08:52 AM

right now, there is a discussion going on as to the location of the ballast casting to provide a reasonable amount of weather helm. I may have to abandon my intent to go with diesel electric power, using similar electronics to the hybrid vehicles currently available, as the current electrical motors are apparently too bulky to do what I am attempting to do. I might just have to go with a sail drive as far aft as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Willie-O
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 09:03 AM

Yup, I heard about the Makah whaling biz a few years ago. Personally I don't have a sturgeon, I have been to (and on) two different Sturgeon Lakes in Ontario, but they are largely historical. I think they used to be up to six or eight feet long in the Ottawa River (of which our Mississippi is a tributary). My brother caught one or two when we were kids.

Thanks for the info Jeff. I'll check that out. As for chopping: thank God for chainsaws. I don't have a real adze either but I have a Pulaski (firefighting axe which has an adze style head on the back). Most of all, I have tools, trees and time. Wish I'd thought of this in the fall. (Except that we'd have all frozen to death by now if I had--the firewood pile is dwindling rapidly as it is).   

At the risk of sounding curmudgeonly, I'm just going to repeat this once, loudly: I KNOW IT WILL BE TIPPY--HENCE THE OUTRIGGER.

Some pictures of single-outrigger canoes I've seen show a very skinny, deep hull, which of course would not be any good as a monohull--but is apparently quite efficient when combined with an outrigger. 4,000 years of practice gave the designers a chance to fine-tune the shape. The general practice with the paddled Pacific outriggers is single-blade paddles, and I much prefer a double-blade, so the next thing I have to figure is how to position the outrigger so as to leave room to paddle. I think I can do this by positioning the outrigger at the stern.

There is a fair amount of rocker in the hull and this will also be true of the outrigger. I've observed in the one I built for my son that straight outriggers really dig into the water and impede efficiency.      

Now if I could only figure out how to glue anything at -20 F (actually it's all the way up to +10 now!)--nothing doing with that till spring, it's the old "carve and wait" plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 10:02 AM

Tell folks this is your racing outrigger canoe.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Ironmule
Date: 28 Jan 04 - 11:33 AM

The Native American way for small dugouts was the long "dough dish" shape, kinda squarish in cross section from end to end. The breadth in the ends gives back some stability and load carrying that a canoe loses in it's skinny ends. I can stand up in mine but can't balance with a stranger aboard. It's 22" wide on the bottom, tapering to nothing at each end of it's 16ft.   You can see it here.

If you're only going to have 15" of beam at the widest, you may have to go to the next step dugout builders used to use, raising the shear with an extra plank on each side. I suppose we won't know on that score till the spring thaw ;^)

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 10:35 AM

Jeff, is that a dugout or a pirogue? Looks good, either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Ironmule
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 11:23 AM

It was built from info about the "Caddo Lake Batteau" which I'd call a plank pirogue. "Pirogue" the word, used to mean "dugout canoe", starting out several centuries ago as a carribean indian tribe's word that got spelled "periaugua" and "perriauger", etc. Planks nailed together in the same shape as the dugout were a handy to use boat, longer lasting than a log and quicker to build. After a time, no one made dugouts any more and cajuns quit differentiating between planked and chopped out versions of the same boat.   

It was in common use soon after saw mills started up in the bayou country, and died out with the common use of outboard skiffs. There's about $100 worth of varnish and lumberyard 1X12's sixteen feet long. I've had a lot of fun with it, and am going to use these same traditional methods this spring to build a rowing skiff, for re-enacting history on the water. With the extra two boards, and oak framing the skiff may cost me $150, and a few weekends in the shop ;^)

Jeff Smith

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 12:34 PM

Jeff, that is one of the most entertaining threads I've ever read on any forum! Anyone who doesn't click on it is missing out hugely. Go back three posts right now and do so...

So anyway I am fascinated by your bateau...you actually managed to plane those planks down to 1/2" and they stayed sound??? Cool. Is that yellow pine? Sure is knotty, I gather you haven't had any real problems with that so far. Another good thing to know. Everyone seems to want to build boats out of 18' clear stock--like, dream on.
There is a tradition around here of building white pine flat bottom sharpies. I have a notion (not being a re-enactor) that you could use easily-available weatherproof deck screws to good effect.

A guy I know from an e-mail list who is a forestry contractor in the south described the extremely curious circumstances of a contract he does gathering pine tar (at least I think that was what he was describing), which, I kid you not, he claims is still considered by the U.S. government to be a "strategic resource"--they get a bunch and lock it up every year. I could put you in touch.

Finally, Jeff, it's interesting you should mention the concept of adding a plank or two on top--I had already figured out that that's what I'd do, in fact I took a 1" plank off the top and figured I'd just rip it down the middle, re-attach the pieces and hence flare the sides. It won't do anything for hull stability, but will keep some water out and let me fit my butt in the boat...

Amos sent me an interesting link relating to an ultra-skinny Aleutian kayak design: www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Building/Guillemot/Aleutesque/index.html

Folks, I'm approaching a moment of truth here. Having cut the horizontals of the bottom and top (sheer), I have to actually shape the hull now...I figure that comes before I start hollowing it out from the top, otherwise I could be in a spot of bother...well, here goes nothin. Keep them interesting links and suggestions coming.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 02:53 PM

Perfectly good pine tar can be gotten at any horse supplier. Use japan dryer to get it to set up or it will take forever.

The decks of the touring canoe are of aircraft grade dacron from Wicks aircraft supply. The less expensive dacron is the same as the more expensive, it just comes from a different supplier. I am becoming more and more of a fan of shrink fit dacron for surfaces which do not have to bear loads.

The idea comes from Platt Monfort of Wiscasset, Maine, who designs boats out of it. He's the guy who came up with various boat chemicals that let him retire and come up with good ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: Naemanson
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 04:16 PM

Wow! A boatbuilding thread on the Mudcat. What fun!

I am currently involved with the Traditional Seafarers Society in Guam. We have a 23' ocean sailing traditional outrigger canoe we bought in Puluwat and sailed up here (500 miles). We have a traditional Chamorro navigator to guide us through the process of repair and maintenance.

The canoe hull is in six pieces. The bottom is a carved dugout in a V shape. Then there are planks added to the sides to build her up and the bow and stern are added last. It's all tied together with coconut fibers and caulked with a coconut fiber matting and a putty made of some kind of sap.

There are some interesting technical aspects of the canoe. First is that the hull is not bilaterally symetrical. Bow and stern are identical but port and starboard are not. She is more curved on the outrigger side than the other. This is intentional. The hull acts as an airfoil "flying" in the water with the "lift" fighting the leeway. There is no keel to do the job. The pontoon (tam in Chamorro) out there on the end of the outrigger is not intended as a float to add stability. It is a counterweight against the press of the wind on the sail. Thus the canoe always has the outrigger upwind and they tack by reversing the rig and swapping bow and stern. Because of this port and starboard have little meaning to the Chamorro.

If you are interested in some pictures PM your email address to me and I'll send them along.

Subject: RE: BS: Boat Builders Texas Dory Plans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Jan 04 - 05:59 PM

Many years ago when I was in High School our shop ckass watched a movie.( Member them, two reels of acetate and a light bulb?) about an old Canadian prospector. He started up river in a long flat Jon boat made of pine powered by what I recall as an English Seagull, about 3 horse maybe. He carried his camp gear, prospecting tools, a can of nails and some 16' pine boards. When he got up river as fa as a water fall he pulled his boat ashore, carried his gear up the cliff to the top of the falls. Pulled up the boards and built on site another Jon boat. He then went on up river to his claim, worked it for the season and boated back to the falls. He left the new Jon boat at the top and climbed down to re load the other and headed home.

Thats when I desided boat building was more doing it than it was wondering how it was done.

Built a few since then.

Don