Trad. players show signs of boredom ?

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: paula t
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 05:36 PM

Sorry......just spotted a typing error.I meant to say"It breaks my heart that people can be so dismissive and intolerant of each others choice of music or ability."

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: tutti flutti
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 05:44 PM

Paula t - I couldn't agree with you more. Very well put.

I am fairly new to folk music (not two years yet) although I'm what you might kindly call a 'mature' person :-)

If people had been intolerant of my early efforts I would have given up. Nearly gave up several times anyway but the encouragement and help I received kept me going and now, although I'll never be able to conquer the nerves enough to become really good, at least I'm fairly proficient and don't make people cringe anymore (well, not too much, anyway!!).

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 05:49 PM

Most of the time people aren't like that. And when they are, it's generally only the odd bastard whom no one likes anyway.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 06:20 PM

I agree with tutti flutti. I have been participating in folk music for a fairly short time (as opposed to listening which I have been doing for a lot longer) and I have found that people have been very encouraging of my efforts.

I find sessions (everyone playing together) and singarounds both have their value. Sessions are great for getting into playing together, learning tunes and developing listening skills. Singarounds put you on your mettle as you are on your own. I have had my share of disasters, but but people are generally very supportive and if you keep trying, you definitely improve. One thing in particular I find singarounds good for is learning to deal with mistakes. You are inevitably going to make mistakes, forget words/tunes etc. and how you deal with them is more important than the fact you make them, IMO. That does not mean you should not try to reduce the number of mistakes you make, but remember even seasoned professionals make mistakes from time to time.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 06:24 PM

"You are inevitably going to make mistakes, forget words/tunes etc. and how you deal with them is more important than the fact you make them, IMO."

Every thread produces one great truth. That's the one for this thread, IMO.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:26 PM

It occurs to me that there is too much intolerance on both sides of this argument, and it seems to stem from the mistaken belief that there is only one reason why a musician chooses a particular method, and that you (without any talent for mindreading) know what that reason is.

I sing (if you can call it that) and accompany myself on a guitar. So far so good!

Though I could manage most of them quite comfortably in D, I perform many of my songs in the key of E. Not so good for melodeons!

So, according to at least one poster to this thread, I am a miserable git who doesn't want to have others playing along.

Well NO, actually.

The clue is in the word accompany. I choose the key which, in my opinion, gives the best sounding mix of vocal and music, for the song I am performing, and the key of E, with the open bottom E string has a ringing bass sound which I find particularly pleasant.

I find also that the songs I sing in that key tend to sound great with a violin, a concertina, or maybe a whistle, and I do encourage impromptu backing.

Looking at the issue from the other side, I very much enjoy joining in the instrumental sets at a session, and I find my guitar playing has improved greatly as a result.

The human voice is the oldest, and most versatile, of all musical instruments, and for that reason alone, if a singer does not want instrumental backing, all of us players should back off, show some respect, and enjoy the song.

I guess all that explains why I love mixed sessions

Bored? I should say NOT! And I would suggest that very few attenders are bored, but it's amazing how much energy you can use up in a good sesh, hence a tendency perhaps to yawn when you are not actively performing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:30 PM

It just occurred to me that shaneo didn't say *which* songs the instrumentalists were holding back from. It can make a difference.

I play a variety of instruments, but most often melody instruments which stand out from any group (either above or below everybody else). Which means I have to think up countermelodies.

This is no problem with a song that has a strong, definite traditional-idiom tune, like "The Lakes of Pontchartrain"; there are lots of options that add a bit extra and don't involve stealing the show from the singer.   But with most singer-songwriter stuff - Dylan and his descendants, the style where a chord progression comes first and the voice does something nondescript over it - I'm lost. Those tunes are so weak and vague that anything I could do would stand out far too much. Any reasonably competent traditional tune player can completely eclipse, dominate, gub and wipe the floor with a Dylanoid songwriter in melody composition and do it on the fly in the middle of a session with only seconds' notice, but they would't make any friends among the singers or improve the overall listener experience by doing it.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: paula t
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:32 PM

My only problem with asking people to sing along is that my voice is quite deep and many women cannot sing easily along in the low keys I choose.I then find it difficult to sing along with other female singers or harmonise unless I sing along with the fellas!This tends to get "funny looks" from some folks. Ho hum.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:32 PM

P.S. If (and this has happened) a melodeon player asks me to play a song that he/she likes so that he/she can join in, I will, providing the voice can handle it play it in D or G.

But I don't react well to being told halfway through a song that I'm in the wrong key, though that's only ever happened twice.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:00 AM

"I can't think of anything more nausiating than a "session". I'd rather play at home to backing tracks!"

Now then Bonzo, don't be such a Bozo - I'm no psychiatrist, but I'd say you definitely need to get out more. Sessions aren't exactly my favourite musical activity either (they might be if I ever manage to get to grips with playing my mandolin properly) but the magic of going to clubs & pubs and meeting so many friends certainly beats the shite out of staying at home and indulging in musical singularity.

As for backing tracks - keep music live and live the life.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 09:59 AM

Henry Martin isn't a hard song on the fiddle. It's only the poor deluded players of tin whistles and things that have trouble with chromatic scales. (Possibly the chords as well when I think about it- maybe it is a hard song.)

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: PMB
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 10:34 AM

Bonzo doesn't like sessions? I doubt if we'll miss him.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: tutti flutti
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:20 AM

I go to several different sessions and SingArounds/TuneArounds(!) and really enjoy both, usually. I like SingArounds because I'm quite shy of jumping in in a session and at least I get to have a turn in a singaround. Yes, I know you experienced and confident musicians sometimes can't understand someone being reluctant to jump in but some people are just naturally more timid - it doesn't mean they can't play or that they can't make a valuable contribution!

One session I go to is being wrecked by one person who takes turn after turn - sometimes singing 3 or 4 things in a row. He then lets someone else have a turn but jumps in again straight after. No-one wants to upset him by telling him to shut up and let so-and-so have a turn because he's a nice old chap and we're sure he means no harm but it can be difficult not to look bored (or exasperated) when he hogs yet again.

But instrumentalists looking bored when someone's singing? I can't say that I've noticed it particularly any more than the singers looking bored when tunes are going on. Some people are just plain rude and they will talk through anything that doesn't involve them singing or playing. I don't think there are more instrumentalists than singers in this group.

Just my four pennorth!

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:43 AM

tutti flutti

Yes, I know you experienced and confident musicians sometimes can't understand someone being reluctant to jump in but some people are just naturally more timid - it doesn't mean they can't play or that they can't make a valuable contribution!

Round these parts (Lewes, East Sussex, UK and environs) we have a session leader who calls on people in turn to sing, play or say "I don't want to lead but can we play John Innes No 6" and then someone else will lead it. Occasionally someone will leap in but nobody ever gets to dominate.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: tutti flutti
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:11 PM

The Snail:

"Round these parts (Lewes, East Sussex, UK and environs) we have a session leader who calls on people in turn to sing, play or say "I don't want to lead but can we play John Innes No 6" and then someone else will lead it. Occasionally someone will leap in but nobody ever gets to dominate."

I have cousins who live in Lewes. Next time I visit them I will come to your session if poss. Where is it and when, please?

The session where we're having trouble with the hog is only once a month and, as I'm at sessions or singarounds nearly every night, I suppose I shouldn't complain really. The chap *is* very old and possibly not too aware of the fact that he's not being very fair. Our session leader does try to call on people to make sure everyone gets a turn but the old chap either doesn't hear or is oblivious of his surroundings. I guess we've just got to put up with it but we've already lost one good musician because of him.
Sticky situation and no win I think.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:19 PM

tutti flutti

I have cousins who live in Lewes. Next time I visit them I will come to your session if poss. Where is it and when, please?

There's quite a few. See here.

The ones I go to are at the Trevor Arms, the Lewes Arms and the John Harvey which are all largely English trad. I sometimes get to the Bull at Ditchling which is a bit more eclectic and free for all.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Declan
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:46 PM

Sessions with nominated leaders - not for me thanks.

Normally in our sessions different people take a lead at different times, but its a casual form of leadership. I will step in if I pereceive that someone is hogging the session too much, but others will also do so on occasion.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: PeadarOfPortsmouth
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:47 PM

Lowden -- Right on! Playing out and being part of the community is infinitely better than practicing endlessly at home alone.

At the risk of being crass, Would someone really rather stay home with a girlie magazine instead of actually going out and meeting a woman?!?

Get out, play and bask in the fellowship. You may hear or play a few sour notes, but the risk is worth it.

Peter

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: tutti flutti
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 02:07 PM

The Snail

Thanks for the link. I probably won't be in your neck of the woods until next spring or early summer but will try to get to as many of those sessions as possible. I'll buy you a pint!

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 06:31 PM

Hmm, Bonzo likes playing with himself? Snigger.

Jack Campin, I don't personally like Dylan stuff, he can't sing, can't play, nicks some of his melodies and has others that are whiny. But when he gets it right he produces some of the most singable whistleable hummable memorisable contemporary tunes. Who could forget Mighty Quinn - or the Nice's version of the one that goes "She's got everything she needs, she's an artist she don't look back". I think you are denigrating the wrong target there.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 06:48 PM

Oh, yes, those chords: -

Henry Martin

(Dm) There were three brothers in (F)mer(C)ry (A)Scotl(Dm)and
(Dm)In Merry Scotl(F)and there (G) were (A)three
And (Dm)they did (A)cast (F)lots(G) which (Gm)of them
(Am)should (F)go should (Gm)go should (A)go
(D9)And turn (F)robber all (C)on the salt (Dm)sea.

Even more fun in two flats or four sharps.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 04:22 AM

"One session I go to is being wrecked by one person who takes turn after turn - sometimes singing 3 or 4 things in a row. He then lets someone else have a turn but jumps in again straight after. No-one wants to upset him by telling him to shut up and let so-and-so have a turn because he's a nice old chap and we're sure he means no harm but it can be difficult not to look bored (or exasperated) when he hogs yet again."

I have met a number of younger versions of this guy in sessions/singarounds in various locations in Yorkshire - trust me when I say they won't be any different when they're long in the tooth and in the category of "nice old chap". Have a quiet word with him - ask him if he wants to go on an extended Saga holiday.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: tutti flutti
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:51 AM

Lowden Jameswright:
Have a quiet word with him - ask him if he wants to go on an extended Saga holiday.

That would be the answer, wouldn't it - but I'm a coward!
I wish our session leader would have a word with him but he's also reluctant to upset the old guy. We will have to do something though before he drives people away.

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 10:43 AM

Let me know time and place for the sessions - I'll whisper some choice words into his "shell-like"!

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:19 AM

Don Wysiwig - *I'M* the miserable git who doesn't want to have others playing along!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:42 AM

perhaps it's a committee decision Liz, for the good of the song....

Subject: RE: Trad. players show signs of boredom ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 05:47 PM

tutti fluti - I can think of a banjo player or two who would do the job for you, for the price of a return ticket, but then one of us would have to explain why said banjo person was needed.....

Actually, I think the prime suspect would be vain enough to think it was because he was brilliant and a brilliant session leader.....