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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: paddymac Date: 25 Mar 00 - 08:02 PM Amos - Great minds really do flow through the same gutter, er, channels. After reading through this thread, especially the lyrics, I had come to essentially the same conclusion as you. I'm not sure there's a "proof" to be had, but the idea certainly has what might be called a "high plausability factor". |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Mar 00 - 10:03 PM Why not ask the people at Hogeye Music and Folk Arts, in Evanston, IL, right outside Chicago? Hogeye Music, 1920 Central Street, Evanston, IL, 60201, (847) 475-0260. No website as far as I know. But they know hogeyes. Ask for Jim Craig, and tell him about Mudcat. Art, back me up! Nobody here knows THEM???????? ~Susan~ |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Stewie Date: 25 Mar 00 - 11:43 PM There was another verse that would seem to add weight to Murray on Saltspring's conclusion:
Sally's in the garden shellin' peas --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Kim C Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:05 PM I am a HUGE fan of shanties and this is one of my favorites. My, what a lively discussion! My conclusion is, like so many bawdy songs of old, hog-eye has a double meaning and those who get it, get it, and those who don't can still enjoy the song and not feel like they're out of the loop. Somewhere I read that a navvy was a railroad worker but as so many of you have said, it likely has other meanings. (I also really dig the Navvy Boots song.) --KC |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Margo Date: 28 Mar 00 - 02:18 PM I just heard another verse this weekend at singing camp. Oh, Sally in the kitchen making duff, the cheeks of her arse going chuff chuff chuff (the singer made an up and down motion with his hands, one then the other). Duff is steamed suet pudding with currants. Eat too much and you have a big duff. Ba-doom-boom! Margo |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Jim Dixon Date: 28 Mar 00 - 07:30 PM Margo, that sounds like one of those portable verses that fits (sort of) a great many songs. I'm pretty sure I've heard it somewhere, and I can't remember where, but I don't think it was part of "The Hogeye Man." |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Art Thieme Date: 28 Mar 00 - 08:18 PM Praise, Yes, you're correct. As I said earlier. HOGEYE MUSIC in Evanston, IL is a fine place. Jim Craig has it now, but the first owners were Ann and Jan Hills-Burda along with Joan and Tyler Wilson. (That's the fine singer Ann Hills). Art |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: wysiwyg Date: 29 Mar 00 - 01:43 AM Art, is Jan still making guitars somewhere? ~Susan~ |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jacob B Date: 29 Mar 00 - 12:19 PM I'm amazed to see that no one seems to have mentioned the derivation of the word "navvy" that I learned, and which I find completely and unquestionably credible. The low-paid construction workers were called navvies not because some workers had once worked on inland navigations, but because they were immigrants. Because they had come over on a boat, they were mockingly called "navigators", and this got shortened to "navvies". |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Chris Seymour Date: 30 Mar 00 - 09:57 PM Margo-- The verse about Sally's arse cheeks is both part of "The Hogeye Man" (see the lyrics posted in Digitrad) and of the chantey Poor Old Man (also sometimes called Poor Old Horse), which has a refrain structure like this: Sally's in the kitchen and she's making the duff ref: and we say so, and we hope so And the cheeks of her arse are going chuff, chuff, chuff ref: Oh poor old man Isn't folk music wonderful? |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,bt Date: 07 Oct 04 - 02:26 PM hogeye is a small town by greenland,ar. and goin to strickler as well.. if noone else no where hogeye is? thats odd.. or never heard of it either. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: frogprince Date: 07 Oct 04 - 03:00 PM I wasn't on line back when this thread was running before; when it popped up, I quickly looked to see how long it took someone to mention Hogeye music. It was the (at least back in the days of Anne and Jan) the smallest venue in which I ever heard great perfomers. They pushed the counters to the back, set up what chairs they could fit in, and brought in Bill Staines, Peter "Madcat" Ruth, etc. They had an old painted hog from a carousel in the window, with a little sign tacked on saying "Does this make Hogeye Music Bucking Ham Palace?" They became a drive-in one day when an elderly lady hit the gas instead of the brake. At the time I worked for the owner of their building at his shoe store in Winnetka; he maintained that nothing they did was even music, since it wasn't opera. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: frogprince Date: 07 Oct 04 - 03:05 PM It was also a record label Jan and Ann had running for awhile; is anything left of that? |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Jack Hickman Date: 07 Oct 04 - 03:11 PM Just to add a little to the discussion of the origin of the word "navvy", it was always my impression that the navvy was just a step above the common labourer, mainly because of his special skills in the excavation or building of works requiring a straight line, e.g., canals, roads, bridges, dams, etc. It seems that over the years it has taken on a pejorative meaning, especially when used to refer to Irish workers, but originally it was a term of respect. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Oct 04 - 03:45 PM Navvy is still probably the most common word in England for people doing labouring work, mostly on building sites, and there's no implication about nationality or colour. "Working like a navvy" or "working like a nigger" would at one time have been used interchangeably, meaning working bloody hard. Eiuther way it carries a certain mark of respect. These days you wouldn't get the klatter, maybe because the only people who'd say it wouldn't have that respect. As for "Hogeye" in shanties, I've always understood it meant "arsehole". I've got a feeling that's what Stan Hugill said it meant. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Stewie Date: 07 Oct 04 - 07:43 PM 'Hog-eye man' is #126 in Randolph's 'Roll Me In Your Arms: Unprintable Ozark Folksongs and Folklore' (p 401 of Vol I of Uni of Arkansas 1992 edition - edited by Gershon Legman). In his note to 'Careless Love' (#237 in Vol II 'Blow the Candle Out' p 648), Legman has this note:
--Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Bernard Date: 07 Oct 04 - 08:10 PM Off on a tangent... up around Tyneside an 'Oggie' is a kind of pastie, and there's a song about the Oggie Man, or Pastie Seller...!! I wonder if there's any connection? |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Oct 04 - 09:02 PM "Hogeye" has developed several meanings since it first appeared. Early quotes: Meaning 1 W. L. Rose, 1853, Hist. Slavery in N. Am. (referring to 1840s) "Who's been here since I've been gone? Pretty littl gal with a josie on. Hogeye! Old Hogeye. (Meaning unclear, although the rhyme has been preserved). H. Nathan 'D. Emmett' 372, 1864 De (slave) trader rode upon a mule The "hog-eye" kept his temper cool He gib de word to go ahead Den crack his whip an' say "nuff sed." Meaning 2. California- A type of barge (now historical) Whall, Sea Songs, 1870, p. 94" "Oh, the hogeye men are all the go, When they come down to San Francisco." Meaning 3. The vulva or vagina. Discussed above. Lomax, 1910(?) American Ballads 432: "She could smile, she could chuckle, She could roll her hog eye." Quotes from J. E. Lighter, "Historical Dictionary of American Slang," vol. 2. Meaning 4. The flower of the hog's eye plant. (OED). |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 07 Oct 04 - 09:06 PM Hmmm, 'Hogeye' & 'Oggie' - there's is a degree of closeness in the pronounciations... remembering that those who first write down the phonetic spelling of what they hear may have the resultant spelling pronounced phonetically differently and then written down again phonetically... |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Anne Croucher Date: 07 Oct 04 - 09:17 PM I would doubt the 'just off the boat' connotation for the origins of navvie, the acts of parliament which were required for the creation, or closure, of a canal described them as inland navigations, and navigation and then cut seem to have preceeded the term canal. From the canals it was logical for the workers to go on to the building of railways, and then the highways and motorways as cars became the next big thing. Navvies must have seemed like visitations from Hell for a quiet village, as the canal or railway 'head' approached there would have been people arriving to find food, drink, building materials - setting up a shanty town and then the workers themselves, typically described as dirty foul mouthed ungodly people, plus all the hangers on, and families. Once the work was finished and the boats or trains were running it must have seemed that the village would never be the same again. Anne |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Oct 04 - 09:46 PM Navvy first appeared in print in these quotations: 1832-1834, De Quincy, Wks. "If navvies had been wanted in those days." 1839, Lecourt, Birmingham Railways 27, "The banditti, known in some parts of England by the name of 'navies' or 'navigators' and in others as 'bankers'... " 1862, Smiles, Engineers, III, 321, "During the railway-making period the navvy wandered about from one public work to another." The OED standard definition is "A labourer employed in the excavation and construction of earth-works, such as canals, railways, embankments, drains, etc." Although chiefly British, in the States it has come to mean an unskilled laborer (seldom heard). Webster's Collegiate. Both references declare that the word is derived from 'navigator.' In Britain, it also came to mean the machine that did excavation work. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Auggie Date: 07 Oct 04 - 10:07 PM Does anyone know which variation of Hogeye Jan was referring to when he and Anne begat the music store? |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:20 PM No one seems to have posted Stan Hugill's version of "The Hog-Eye Man." Lyr. Add: THE HOG-EYE MAN (Hugill) He came to a shack where his Sally (Jinny) she did dwell, And he knocked on the door and he rang her bell, Oh, An' a hog-eye (Oh, hog-eye, O)! Railroad nigger wid his Hogeye (Row the boat ashore for her hogeye)! Row the boat ashore wid her hog-eye O! She wants the hog-eye man! Oh, Jinny's (Sally's) in the garden, pickin' peas, An' the hair of her head hangin' down to her knees. Oh, who's bin here since I've bin gone? Some big buck nigger wid his sea-boots on. If I cotch him here wid me Jinny (Sally) any more, I'll sling my hook an' I'll go to sea some more. Oh, Jinny (Sally) in the parlour a-sittin' on his knee, A-kissin' the sailor who'd come o'er the seas. Sally (Jinny) in the garden siftin' sand, An' the hog-eye man sittin' hand-in-hand. Oh, Sally (Jinny) in the garden shellin' peas, With her yound hog-eye all a-sittin' on her knee. Oh, I won't wed a nigger, no, I'm dammed if I do, He's got jiggers in his feet an' he can't wear a shoe. Oh, the hog-eye man is the man for me, He wuz raised way down in Tennessee (For he is blind aan' he cannot see). Oh, go fetch me down my ridin'-cane, For I'm off to see me darlin' Jane. Oh, a hog-eye ship an' a hog-eye crew, A hog-eye mate an' a skipper too, With music, pp. 198-200, Stan Hugill, "Shanties from the Seven Seas, (1961), 1994 new U. S. edition, Mystic Seaport. Whall said a hog-eye was a barge used on the canals and rivers of the U. S. at the time of the Gold Rush in California (1850), and Hugill seems to accept this as its origin (hog-eye man being one of the crew of a hog-eye). See meaning 2 in a previous post). There are several variant choruses; Hugill gives five. I have a suspicion that this chantey originated with the slave oarsmen and crews on the southeast coast and on the Gulf rivers. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 08 Oct 04 - 06:13 AM Hugill admitted that his text had been "camouflaged," the word he liked to use for "bowdlerized." Some of the original stanzas are in Randolph-Legman, but Legman, for reasons unknown, still omitted seven entire stanzas. The full text, Legman tells us, is/was in Hugill's manuscript of bawdy shanties, "Sailing Ship Shanties, by 'Long John Silver.'" There's a disturbing rumor circulating that this collection, which is/was one of the most significant folklore collections in English of the 20th century, has now disappeared or, in fact, never existed. Hugill himself told me in 1988 that the manuscript was real and that he'd given it to Legman around 1960. He compiled it at Legman's request from the authentic shanty lyrics that Hugill's 1961 publishers found "unprintable." This, Hugill said, was so that "if we're all blown up by an atom bomb the songs will survive." Maybe he was too optimistic. Maybe John Mehlberg knows something about the manuscript's whereabouts. Legman stated in print several times that he'd promised to publish it. Meanwhile, Stan occasionally performed some of the bawdy shanties at late-night singalongs at Mystic Seaport and elsewhere. Any 'Catters who may have picked up lyrics from him in person can help out by posting them. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Tannywheeler Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:53 AM Early in this thread someone tried to refer folks to a website that seemed to indicate Elgin, Texas. This is a little town about 30 miles east of Austin. One of the rather winding, washboardy country roads that goes from Austin, east to south of Manor, then east and a tad north to end in Elgin, is called HOGEYE Road. Mama always said to make all the connections. She obviously knew you lot. Tw |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Oct 04 - 01:30 PM I dismissed the connection between oggies and hogseyes, and then i remembered the film (American Pie?) where an apple pie is used as a suurogate vagina. I still don't believe it though. Steady on the jib, Keith. PS I had a Sprite but here we called them frog eyed. Heater worked pretty good on mine though. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:07 PM LIGHTER Very NICE commentary.
Good Lord willing, we can run back to your most recent reference.
Sincerely - Thank You!~
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:18 PM I still don't believe it though.
KeithH4
Given your immediate posting....check for Alzheimer's or better yet.....some REVERSE recollection of the memory.
Also check your gonads....more than a hand-full of 17 y.o. American males have humped cherry-pies, goats, sheep, dogs, fists, females....as oppossed to Hull-College-British Pastys that have humped, class-mates, instructors, and fresh-hot-dorm-delivered-pizzas. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 May 08 - 01:56 PM Posted up above from Lighter, "Historical Dictionary of American Slang," are the several meanings of hogeye (hogseye). Captain Whall, "Sea Songs and Shanties, first printed in 1910, is perhaps the best collection of 19th c. sailors work songs. I haven't found his note or version of "The Hog-Eye Man" in Mudcat threads. Lyr. Add: THE HOG-EYE MAN (W. B. Whall) Solo Oh! go fetch me down my old riding cane, For I'm goin' to see my darlin' Jane! Chorus And a hog-eye railroad nigger with his hog-eye Row de boat ashore, and a hog-eye O! She wants the hog-eye man. Solo O the hog-eye men are all the go, When they come down to San Francisco, Chorus In a hog-eye, etc. Solo Now it's "who's been here since I been gone?" A railroad nigger with his sea-boots on, Chorus And a hog-eye, etc. Solo O Sally in the garden picking peas, Her golden hair hanging down to her knees, Chorus And a hog-eye, etc. With musical score, pp. 93-94, reprint 1948. Note by Captain Whall: "This shanty dates from 1849-1850. At that time gold was found in California. There was no road across the continent, and all who rushed to the goldfields (with a few exceptions) went in sailing ships round the Horn, San Francisco being the port they made for. This influx of people and increase of trade brought railroad building to the front; most of the "navvies" were Negroes. But, until the roads were made, there was a great business carried on by water, the chief vehicles being barges, called "hog-eyes." The derivation of the name is unknown to me. The sailor in a new trade was bound to have a new shanty, and this song was the result." |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 May 08 - 02:18 PM Joanna C. Colcord, "Songs of American Sailormen," also includes this gold rush chantey. Her first and last solos are different, but the rest of the solos are the same as those in Whall. THE HOG-EYE MAN Solo Oh, the hog-eye man is the man for me, He was raised way down in Tennessee, Chorus With a hog-eye! Row boat ashore with a hog-eye, Row boat ashore with a hogeye, All she wants is a hog-eye man! ---------- Solo Oh, I won't wed a nigger, I'll be damned if I do, He's got jiggers in his feet and he can't wear a shoe. With score, p. 104. "Sacramento" is another gold rush chantey, also using some solos derived from minstrel songs as well as whatever comes to mind of the leading singer. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Santa Date: 23 May 08 - 03:01 PM Oggy for a pasty is certainly South-west English, witness Cyril Tawney's song. Not (that I ever recall) North-eastern, although clearly the term could have appeared around the Tyne and Wear docks so I can't rule it out completely. One point that perhaps needs expanding on is the renowned working capability of the navvies. In the 19th Century this was certainly well-known, hence the phrase "working like a navvy" touched on above. I believe some teams were also taken abroad to build French (at least) railways because of this. Presumably this was partly due to good organisation, but sheer effort clearly counted. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,John from Kemsing Date: 23 May 08 - 03:40 PM When we (FOUR SQUARE CIRCLE) sang this song we included this verse though I cannot determine its` source. "Sally`s in the kitchen, mixing duff While the cheeks of her arse go chuff, chuff, chuff." |
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Subject: Lyr. Add: The Ox-Eyed Man From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 May 08 - 04:22 PM A shift in meaning here. No longer the barge of the black gold rush bargemen. Some sailor, aboard a British merchantman, created a new chantey, perhaps after hearing "Hog-Eye Man." "The Ox-Eyed Man" was collected by Captain Tozer, British Merchant Marine (long P & O experience). Lyr. Add: THE OX-EYED MAN F. J. Davis Solo Oh, May looked up and she saw her fate In the ox-eyed man passing by the gate. Chorus Heigh-ho for the ox-eyed man. Solo Oh, May in her garden a-shelling her peas, Smil'd on the stranger who'd come o'er the seas. Chorus Solo The ox-eyed man gave a fond look of love, And charmed May's heart which was as pure as a dove. Chorus Solo Oh, May in the parlour a-sitting on his knee, And kissing the sailor who'd come o'er the sea. Chorus Oh, May in the garden a-shelling her peas, Now weeps for the sailor who sail'd o'er the seas. Chorus With score, no. 44, p. 84, F. J. Davis and Ferris Tozer, "Sailors' Songs or 'Chanties,'" revised ed., Boosey & Co., Ltd., London & NY (First printing 1887, no date on revised ed., but c. 1913). |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Neil D Date: 23 May 08 - 10:48 PM Interesting that this thread has been revived. It is the thread that first drew me to Mudcat. I had heard the song and not knowing what it meant I googled Hogeye and Google brought me here and I've been hanging out every since. So I understand that a Hogeye is a type of towed boat whether on a canal or on the Frisco coast and a navvy is a laborer. Recently I noticed a line in the Bob Dylan song "Ain't Talkin'" that goes: Eatin hog-eyed grease in a hog-eyed town I believe he is making subtle reference to the song "Hogeye" because 8 lines later he sings : Hand me down my walkin' cane. Does anyone know if hog-eyed grease in a hog-eyed town means anything or is it just some picturesque wordplay from Mr. Dylan. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Bill S from Adelaide Date: 24 May 08 - 05:53 AM According to Roy Palmer's book, the word Navvy first appeared in print in 1822 and it certainly is an abbreviation of Navigator, a labourer on the canal building, the canal building period overlapped the railway building so the same workers would have moved between the two. The song The New Navigation was written in 1789 for the opening of the Birmingham Canal, the start of a canal network bigger than Venice. Comments about the interchange of nigger and navvy brought back to mind comments from one of our track inspectors (I used to work for British Rail) when he was offered a couple of West Indians for his gangs. He was widely reported as retorting "Don't give me niggers, they're useless, get me some Irish lads, they work like blacks" without realising the irony. Amazing the thread is nearly 9 years old and still going strong |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Jan Burda Date: 19 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM Once upon a time....three musicians sat in an apartment in Rogers Park(Chicago), wondering what to name our new music store. Anne Hills, Doug Rice, and yours truly. Over a six-pack, or two, of hieleman's special export, we had been singing the old timey country standard The Hogeyed Man. "Hogeye Music" followed. A name like that would be hard to forget. Easy to remember...every trucker that drove down Central St., every delivery person,banker, police, emergency, etc. knows the shop. Months after opening, the late George Armstrong brings us a gift...a hog phrenology chart illustrating the body parts of a male hog (boar), with the additional tidbit of knowledge that in Celtic loar, the word hogeye means an erect penis, So for those of you who would like to hear this in American music, check out the version by sung by Mike Seeger and the New Lost City Ramblers, among many others. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Jun 10 - 10:58 AM Jan- Thanks for the new information. I do wonder how the term "hogeye" in "Celtic lore" came to mean that. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Dave Hanson Date: 19 Jun 10 - 11:18 AM Navvy is the abbreviation of ' navigationer ' ie. one who builds canals [ navigations ] not navigator. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Tannywheeler Date: 19 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM Y'all are all wrong. HOGEYE is a road that winds thru the central Texas countryside. Starts east of Austin & takes a curvy route thru a wide variety of miniscule--uuhhmm, communities?--that were the pantry to the US. Farms, ranches, seed&feed stores, places to buy or fix the tractor or combine. Always heading eastward--unless you were headed to Austin from 1 of those little places...Eventually winding up just on the edge of Elgin. Used to be a point on US290 which listed Elgin as less than 30 miles from Austin. If you drive Hogeye Rd. you'll go closer to 50 or 55 mi. On 290 you'll see lots of major modern hiway stuff: fast food & gas station chains at exits; billboards; construction sites(for TOLL ROADS!!!); exit lanes & signs; yards full of "mobil" or "manufactured" homes for sale. If you drive Hogeye Rd. you'll see horses & bovine beings in pastures; cotton, bean, sorghum, corn, etc. fields; local cafes; little community groceries. It's a pleasanter ride. Of course, there are getting to be occasional housing & condo developments. & with the cost of gas a prohibitive luxury...sigh. Tw |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: frogprince Date: 19 Jun 10 - 01:55 PM Jan Burda, nice to hear from you. I usta live in Rogers Park, and work for your store's landlord in the shoe store in Winnetka; I enjoyed you and Anne any number of times at the No Exit. We saw Anne in Flint, MI. last month. Dean |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Dave Hanson Date: 19 Jun 10 - 03:48 PM Tannywheeeler, I've never heard such gibberish in all my life, what on earth do you mean [ in English ] Dave H |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Tannywheeler Date: 20 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM Don't talk English; I talk Tex. Tw |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,crew enterprize Australia Date: 14 Mar 12 - 08:46 AM I must say I have found all this so entertaining , You will be happy to know the "Hog-eye" song is being sung with "gusto" by our little sea shanty band weekly, Complete with the "chuff" "chuff" "chuff" So if you ever find your self "Down Under" come sailing/singing on the "Tall Ship Enterprize" in Melbourne Australia and bring your Tin Whistle. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Gurney Date: 14 Mar 12 - 03:11 PM Dave Hanson, a few posts above, is correct according to a book on the navigations that I read long ago. You have to understand the history. Britain is well laced with cuts/canals, which were built long ago from before the start of the industrial revolution, by gangs who lived a life in camps, as did the people who built the American railroads. They were not popular locally, as navigationers were definitely not 'plaster saints.' The term became generic for hard, hardworking, harddrinking men, who owed no fealty to the local citizenry. In later years the railways of Britain were built by the same system of work, and in those days quite often by Irish labourers, as work was plentiful and Britons could get better-paid and more settled places, hence 'Irish Navvies.' It must be 50 years since I read the book. I think it was called 'The Navvies.' |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 14 Mar 12 - 04:19 PM I am a little surprised that no-one yet on this thread has mentioned blues man Texas Alexander's song recorded around 1927/8 which starts off with the words: "My Gal's got something that looks like a boar hog's eye" It doesn't take much imagination to work out what it is he is referring too unless you have never seen a hog or studied female anatomy. Sorry I can't recall which song this is without spending a while going through my shelves. Hoot |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Steve Parkes Date: 15 Mar 12 - 02:38 PM I've never seen a boar hog's eye, Hootenanny. I shall know what to look out for now! |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 15 Mar 12 - 04:52 PM At first I thought the reference of "hogeye" was rather obvious (and supposed to be). But with all the stuff I've seen since, I don't think the word "hogeye" is part of the dirty stuff. I think it was the customary solo lyrics (or style of solo lyrics) that was dirty. It's possible that at a later point the word hogeye itself also received a dirty denotation. This would have been either 1) through association with the dirty lyrical theme (i.e. people re-interpreted the word, gave it the dirty meaning) or 2) through the discourse of writers who said the chanty was dirty and mistakenly thought "hogeye" fit into that. I don't think "hogeye" was in reference to a barge, either. Not originally, at least. However, I can offer no meaning for it! |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 15 Mar 12 - 06:10 PM Terry was explicit about saying that some of the dirt lay in the word "hogeye" itself, but he declined to be explicit about what it meant. I think we've discovered what it meant, at least by the time Terry learned it in the late 19th C. Hugill, however, seems not to have made the connection, and if the editor of the lost manuscript of bawdy shanties, if he didn't think of it, plenty of others wouldn't have thought of it either. The phrase "hogeye man" is ambiguous anyway. It could be a man with a squint or else the captain of a hogeye barge. Or a man obsessed with "hogeyes." Singers could imagine whatever they chose. The fact that an unrelated fiddle tune called "The Hogeye Man" is openly attested in print even before the Civil War tells me that a clean meaning (or rationalization) was not only possible but actually prevalent. At least outside of shantying circles. As for "navvy," the evidence is that Iam Campbell or someone like that substituted it for the other "n-word" in the early '60s. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: GUEST Date: 15 Mar 12 - 07:26 PM I first heard this song a hell of a long time ago and it was sung as "railroad nigger with his sea-boots on". (Although why a railroad man be wearing sea-boots is beyond me!) The song was referred to as a "nigger shanty", lumped in with others like "Bullgine" and the cotton-screwing songs as being of African-American origin. I always understood the Hogeye Man to be, firstly, Black. And secondly, one adept at getting some hog-eye.(more power to him!) So many shanties have been sanitized. Agree with Guest, lighter, above that "navvy" was just cleaning it up. Don't know the origin of the word but a navvy is a laborer. |
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Subject: RE: I give up. What's a HOGEYE? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 16 Mar 12 - 01:50 AM Terry was explicit about saying that some of the dirt lay in the word "hogeye" itself, but he declined to be explicit about what it meant. ...Singers could imagine whatever they chose. True, that's what I was vaguely alluding to by saying that people may have "later" imagined a dirty meaning (which becomes just as valid as earlier meaning) and/or that discourse about it (e.g. Terry's) may have oriented shanty-types towards expecting something dirty. My current opinion is that the "original" meaning was clean, but, something like "Hilo," now "lost" to us. Not necessarily a mondegreen, not necessarily vocables, but then gain not necessarily something with a whachamacallit (declarative?) meaning. In other words, it was not necessarily meant to make any direct sense. Course that's just my opinion. My opinion BTW is quite influenced by the evidence of the plantation or minstrel songs. I think it most likely was a word that was passed on from the plantation song, without thinking/caring about the meaning. Then later on it may have been ascribed a meaning when borrowed by a different cultural group. This is a very broad statement, and highly contestable, but my sense is that the Black culture (or Southern U.S. culture?) that may (!) have produced this song originally is one that treated the "meaning" of words in songs in a different way than, say, RR Terry's culture-- which sought a rather more direct, rational meaning for all words in a song. Terry (hypothetically) would *have* to find some explainable meaning for "hogeye" and just as many of us have (including me at first), he suspected veiled sexuality. |
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