BS: Killing for pleasure

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM

Spleen Cringe: "I disbelieve anyone living in a modern western economy who says they hunt for any reason other than sport or extreme poverty."

In which case I suspect you have not moved in the kinds of circles, where it actually does happen.
Never heard of Freeganism or Self-Sufficiency?

There are those who choose, neither for sporting reasons nor poverty but often as a reaction aginst Capitalist society, to 'drop-out' of the modern Western consumerist system, and persue an alternative self-sufficient lifestyle, which means they will hunt and gather whatever there is to be found in the world around them. A choice that is made to consume and waste less, and be far more personally responsible for what they do consume.

I can think of one friend of mine who, as an anarchist, has never paid tax, doesn't live in a house, is self-employed and is otherwise as self-sufficient as he can reasonably manage.

The reason his case is especially pertinant to this thread, is that he was vegetarian for twenty years. But took to shooting the odd pheasant or rabbit, or indeed fishing the odd trout to improve his diet - he was getting bloody underwieght at the time. He doesn't hunt for sport, anymore than he collects the dead wood with which he builds the musical instruments he barters or sells, for 'sport'.

His occasional hunting is completely purposive, and ethically congruent with his anti-consumerist and anarchist way of life.

There are more people out there living on the 'fringes' of our consumerist culture, than you might at first imagine.
But they don't usually make headlines for living their alternative lifestyles, unless they turn up in The Daily Mail as 'undesirables'.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:51 AM

The freegans round my way tend to be bin pickers rather than sharpshooters. Can't imagine any of them would know one end of a gun from another, nor would want to. However that maybe comes from living near the middle of a big city where guns tend to be associated with gangsters, traps would catch small children and the only 'game' is rats, grey squirrels, the odd fox and domestic moggies.

No, my comment was really aimed at those who clearly enjoy hunting but for some strange reason seem to feel it necessary to pretend they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 10:57 AM

PS I was always more impressed with the collectivist anarchism than the rugged individualist variety, btw ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: gnu
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 02:10 PM

I said I was leaving, but, earlier today, something was triggered in my brain, so I read back...

Slag.... "Having said that, killing for the pleasure of killing is just sick. It's wrong. The pleasure of hunting is not in the killing. The pleasure is the camaraderie of your companions and your dedication to the hunt as well as the satisfaction which comes from the actual hunting and stalking of the creature."

Agreed.

And, that is when I stopped "hunting". I did all of that and even pulled the trigger... of an unloaded gun. I "hunted" for a while with an unloaded gun. Unfortunately, I didn't have the coin to get into some good camera/camcorder equipment but I might after I sell my gun.

For someone who wasn't raised with it, it's hard to understand that part of it, but those who photograph "game" surely must understand it somewhat.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 04:57 PM

Can you be more specific, Jim Caroll? which are your 'Thugs and morons' and which are your 'Boys?' You have a fair range here, although no-one has advocated such extremes as "Kill it before they are all gone!" to "Oh, don't touch it, it's so sweet! I'll have my steak rare and pass the insect spray."

Or is anyone who disagrees with you wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Slag
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 06:14 PM

Yes, gnu. I do all my hunting from behind the lens of a camera and have for the past umptydum years. I still shoot the wood rats and ground squirrels trying to undermine my house and the same for the flying termites (read: woodpeckers). Most all of my hunting friends have passed away. Were I to go on a hunt today, I'd take my camera, fishing pole and a couple of decks of cards.

re Jim Caroll: to quote Dogbert (of Dilbert comics fame)" I find that the intelligent ones always agree with me. The rest just say stupid things. This tends to keep the questions at a minimum." Yup Jim, with iron clad logic like that, how could you ever possibly be wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 07:18 PM

Did you misspeak, Slag? Why on earth would you shoot woodpeckers?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Slag
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 09:55 PM

A while back they succeeded in pecking their way through to an an attic. This allowed the bats in. When the bat urine began to soak through the ceiling and stinking up the place I discovered the hole and at no small cost, I had the bats removed and the hole patched.

Every morning shortly after sun up, there is a ratta tat tat tat somewhere on a side of the house. The really staccato racket is the red-shafted flickers. They are the most destructive. Both flickers and acorn woodpeckers are very intelligent birds and they hear the shotgun being chambered through the walls and are usually gone by the time I get outside. If I get a shot off the target is almost always too far away. If I'm am stealthy and get the jump on them I will get one or two every now and then. It helps keep the damage down. Most mornings (I'm NOT a morning person) I will just roll over with my deaf ear up. The redheads are just looking for bugs hiding in the overlaps. Their damage is minimal compared to the flickers.

I hope that answers your concerns. If not, I will let you come and replace my siding and put your heart at ease.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 11:06 PM

I used to ride to work in a crummy driven by a hooktender who would go out of his way to run over wild rabbits, chipmonks, and squirrels. He would laugh when he did it, and then look over at the other guys who were riding in the front seat with him, at that point, they were expected to laugh too. If they didn't, they knew they would get some real shitty job for the day.
               It happened to me once; I got a shitty job. After that, I always rode in one of the back seats.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:11 AM

That thing in the photo is obviously a Jackalope!! Inbred jackrabbit and antelope mix. They are all over the U.P. of Michigan (Upper Peninsula) and parts of Minnesota to boot. I've seen several.

The last time I saw one was about twenty years ago. I was up in Ironwood for the North Country Folk Festival that Phil Kucera ran. I was in a bar in Ramsay, Michigan with Fritz Schuler and we'd been watching Spider John Koerner play pool. I went out for some cool air-----and there it was. I'll never forget it because that was the same day I saw a jackrabbit having intercourse with a skunk. (The rabbit didn't get all he wanted, but he did get about all he could stand!)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 12:35 AM

You're right, Art. That is what the photo reminded me of. It's been years since I've seen a jackalope but I'll never forget them. Click on Number 4- the most familiar one to most of us, for one picture of a slightly older one than the one in the photo we've been discussing. This one obviously takes more after his daddy.

Pet Jackalope

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Slag
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 01:41 AM

So Art, was there any progeny from the rabbit skunk union? And if so, what did you call them? Is this why the rabbits around here stink so bad? Are they out having their way with the black and white denizens of the forest?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:04 AM

last week I photographed a Canada Goose on our large park lake, asking around as to anyone slse seeing this rare visitor I asked a local `wildfowler` [bird shooter] if he had ever come across the bird on near-by Lough Neagh, he replied it wouldn`t be around too long,"we shoot anything that flies".
This reply was greeted with loud laughter from our`wildfowler`, [what a strange term for a slaughterer of birds, and no, they don`t eat what they shoot they bin them, I have seen them.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:17 AM

Ard - one would be tempted to sic the RSPCA or the RSPB onto them... or the local Garda, to check their shotgun licences...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:31 AM

Thugs and morons = those who kill purely (wrong word) for pleasure
Boys (should have included girls I suppose) those who don't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 06:35 AM

"There are people in Northern Ireland who like to kill unarmed soldiers and pizza delivery men.Perhaps we should try and put a stop to that before worrying about the blood-lust of specimen-crazed "sporting" shooters ,however distasteful we might find the latter ??"

This view suggests that only humans and human affairs are relevant and all other living things, and the general environment, are irrelevant or of trivial importance. Jared Diamond's book 'Collapse' suggests that this view has prevailed throughout history and many civilisations have come to a nasty end because of it - I'm pretty convinced that ours will too.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: ard mhacha
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 07:20 AM

Liz,I am sure the shotgun brigade from where ever they come from couldn`t care less what comes into range, this `binning` of their prey has been going on for years, I listen to them on unguarded moments and they talk away about what they `bag`. I have talked to the local bird reserve many times and that has proved to be a useless exercise, it is not that they don`t care, it is sheer despair at anything ever going to be done.
The country lads in our area almost to a man seem to see this as part of their culture, not in the least perturbed about shooting birds, too bad if the odd rare bird is blasted along with the local Mallard, that is the impossible situation that confronts the conservationists.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Gurney
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 04:42 PM

Jim Caroll, Thank you for your reply to my question. Whilst I agree that wanton killers of wildlife are savages, they are not necessarily thugs or morons. Wanton being the operative verb.
It was the brevity and vehemence of your post that spurred me to ask for a definition.
It is, of course, hypocritical to abhor the killing of animals if you eat fish or meat, or wear leather, because almost all fish are taken from the wild by barberic methods which destroy other ecosystems, and farming for slaughter takes a mindset that I don't share. Though I do happily eat the end products of it.
I could advance arguments against the unnatural lives forced on creatures to produce eggs and milk, if I felt inclined to play Devil's Advocate. Or even against vegetable farming, and the harm that that does to the environment.
Morality is only a single view from a single perspective, and everyone has their own. Even someone who holds to the strictest Buddhist principles, arguably the most moral current, is allowed to eat meat provided someone gives it to them!   Chris Marden.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 10:11 PM

If you abhor hunting, then don't do it....and leave the others, who like to hunt, alone....mind your own business!

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 12:40 AM

the Dave Bartle photoset, from d-bartz, above:

http://beagle.riflephoto.com/index/module/media/pId/102/id/6162/category/gallery%7Cthewhiteroebuck/start/0

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 05:53 AM

Chris Marden,
Thanks for your thoughts, and I apologise if my earlier comments were intemperate.
My attitude on killing and torturing for sport were formed when I was a 16 year old apprentice on the Liverpool docks and I was taken to a coursing event by two workmates.
I can't remember if I enjoyed the main event, but as we were leaving we came across a small crowd gathered around two dogs who had a hare between them - the veterans referred to it as 'a string'. One dog had the creatures ears, the other had a hind leg, and they were slowly tearing the animal, which was screaming like a baby, apart. The crowd stood and cheered until somebody stepped over and stamped on the hare's head; it writhed on the ground for another few minutes before it finally died. Thugs and morons are the words that have sprung to mind ever since.
I share your hypocritical confusion over eating meat.
Guest from Sanity
You mean 'Live and Let Kill' - I understand there's a dog fight planned for this weekend a few miles from here - what do you suggest?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:47 AM

Hunting rights are taken for granted in my neck of the woods and my wishes as a landowner, for my land not to be hunted :have had to be reinforced by returning the fire of these imbeciles,The issues raised by this topic are complex,as a hunter -gatherer reformed I sympathise with the killing of game for food,but the argument of pest control is frequently over used (and abused ) by the hunting fraternity tho justify slaughter of predators. often to the detriment of balance of nature and causing a increase in the my number of true pests (rodents , etc ) that are their normal prey, Having an an endangered species on my land I seek to protect it and enjoy my status as their steward. the real pests however are the hunters! I am not a veggie and I do partake of meat (even game )so the needs of the farming community are also to be considered.The argument that man doesn't need meat would possibly lead to the extinction of a host of farm species if taken literally,- most people like to eat meat and veggies will always be a minority.Equally   absurd is the illusion that chickens are born in a cardboard box with bread-crumbs instead of feathers! both sides of this debate need to take a reality check

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,Cliff
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:55 AM

Dog fighting - illegal!
If you know where & when you have a duty to report this to the police.
That activity has no bearing at all on legal shooting, fishing etc.
I work with shooters & fishermen & without exception they condemn this sort of activity (including the torture of the hare cited above).

You may as well blame old lady muggings on wildfowlers also.
(I am NOT a wildfowler BTW)

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 10:00 AM

"Dog fighting - illegal!"
I was under the impression that hunting foxes with hounds was now illegal in Britain, yet is still goes on regularly - where do I go to report them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 10:54 AM

B.T.W. I was not referring to the legal status of the event, but to the bestiality of the participants, summed up perfectly for me by an e-mailed petition I received last year. It contained a film clip of a dog filmed in an art gallery (I think somewhere in South America) in various stages of starvation; the objective being to follow its 'progress' to its death. It was an 'exhibit' at the gallery for which the 'artist' had received an Arts Grant.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 11:37 AM

I heard about that. Now we're into killing for art and science (not for long I hope - hard to take, and could go on forever.) Long ago there was a story about a university study where they put long eared and short eared bunnies in ovens to see which would die faster. There's also a famous very old story about an experimenter operating on a dog, strapped down without sedation, which dog licked the scientist's hand. (If memory serves, that story was reported by Darwin, as before his time, but it rings eternal.)