Is it Ok to sing from a song book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:19 PM

One advantage of a book, though it's seldom used, is that you can avoid only being able to think of one song- the one you always do- when suddenly it's your turn. Sameness, whether from page or rote, is a dead hand on many folk sessions. Perhaps a compromise- learn your songs, but use the book (with a pitch/ key prompt in it) to ensure that you can choose a fresh song, remember how it goes, and avoid those embarrassing false starts in little Aled Jones pitch.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:26 PM

Only very rarely---and only with a good reason that is mentioned rather prominently beforehand.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: eddie1
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:32 PM

Having read through this thread, it seems to me that maybe it's right for some people and not right for others.

Eddie

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:39 PM

If a book is used, have the song you're going to sing bookmarked so you don't waste time shuffling through the pages when it's your turn. It's baffling sometimes at a singaround, when everybody can tell when their turn is coming up, that some people start futzing around with their songbooks or notebooks when it gets around to them instead of having their chosen song ready. I'd rather people refer to the lyrics if it is helpful, and it needn't detract from the song. Sometimes a book or lyric sheet just serves as a 'safety net' and it isn't even necessary - but the security derived from having it helps ward off nervousness.   It's well known that a song one can sing perfectly at home or in the car can fly from memory when you're in front of an audience. And I agree about noting the key, etc. I always have a set list with the keys noted, and sometimes some notes about the songs, as one poster noted - in case someone asks.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM

I use a songbook, if you feel comfortable about using one then do so if then don't, whatever you find comfortable, you don't have problem, other people do.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RTim
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:00 PM

Before I sing at ANY EVENT - be it gig or sing around, I decide what I am most likely to sing, and write a list on a Post It Note, etc., and if I need to, I reference the page in my 7" x 4 3/4 " notebook where the first lines are. Then I ONLY sing something from that list, having practiced them before hand.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:04 PM

"Is it OK to sing from a song book?"

No!!!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:20 PM

It doesn't matter whether it's a concert in front of hundreds of people, or a small singaround - it's still a performance. Even if you're inexperienced and nervous - especially if you're inexperienced and nervous - you should prepare beforehand. That means deciding what you're going to sing, plus a couple of reserves in case someone else gets in first, or in case you're asked for another with little warning. Learn them and practice them. If you need prompt cards to remind you of the key, or starting lines, have them ready and in order, and keep their use as brief as possible.

Of course inexperienced singers are nervous, but they're probably in supportive surroundings. Everyone, even experienced performers, gets nervous, it's what keeps you on your toes. The better prepared and rehearsed you are, the more confident you'll be and less likely to make mistakes.

However, part of learning to be a singer is learning how to cope with mistakes. Everyone makes them from time to time, even the pros. You could laugh it off, stop and start again, or even carry on regardless - a strategic mumble can get you past a forgotten word, or just make them up. If you play an instrument, an instrumental break can buy you time while you calm down and remember the next verse. Audiences are generally forgiving, and will soon forget you made an error, assuming they even noticed it.

Things like this are as much a part of being a singer as learning the words and the tune. They're skills which any would-be singer should aspire to. If you're going to do something, surely you should want do it properly and to the best of your ability.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:30 PM

SOLDIER BOY........As has been previously mentioned this is one of the oldest and sometimes most contentious subject on the forum. Let me show you what I mean. THIS THREAD is 12 years old and you'll see some familiar names. At the top of that thread is a list of others pertaining to RUS (Rise Up Singing) in particular and "book singing" in general. Read throughsome of them and you'll find the same things are being said on every one!

Buut one voice on the subject that was probably the best and most vocal is now gone from us. So let me repost here the words of our friend and 'Catter, Barry Finn:

There was a time when people came to sing, sometimes because they couldn't read & othertimes because they just enjoyed it, then others came along to listen & join in & add to the the merryment or just to listen because it's a pleasure, & hell, without the new blood what's the use of keeping such a loving thing alive if it's so sad to see it dying. My ideal singing party starts at daybreak, I'd go for roasting a pig, by noon every one's ready to eat, drink & sing, nobody misses out on singing & beginners or the shy always have the floor & the rest are in there for the coaxing & the crack, just no RUS bibles around. Usually most keep going on till evening when the heat gets turned on & that works out nicely for those that don't have a lot of songs to draw from, this is when some of the odd gems get thrown around (& everyone's joining in) along with the diamond in the rough that's hardly been heard but when you hear it you can't forget where it came from. Still no books but everybodys singing & the beginners want more & those that have been around longer are looking to swap & give more. My ideal festival is not the stages but the campsites where you can find all kinds of people singing all kinds of songs and telling all kinds of stories. I'll leave you with that image, if you want to learn a song or a tune don't try & learn it at a session or party, learn it at home, from a book if need be then leave the book there & take the music to the party. Barry, who loves it when it's wild.

And if you thought that made sense, read the following rant from Barry:

You don't teach bad singers to get better by having them sing with their peers (you have a sucky sing, it'll stay that way or get worst), you put them in with a good group, you won't get an infusion of new, fresh or young blood by exposing them to a medicore sing, you won't get anyone one to liven up the dead, the dead will bring the rest down to the lowest common denominator. If you have a great sing going throw out any bastard that wants to bring in a book, if they multiply they'll kill it! You can't kill a good sing when you've got good & strong core of singers leading it. When I lived in San Francisco 30 odd yrs ago they had some of the best singing parties I ever went to (God I miss those days), there were new people, young & old, great singers & bad singers, they all sang a varity of genres, there was a great flow of songs but when they crowded a room the roof lifted & not a piece of paper could be seen. The front room was packed, the side room was packed, the kitchen was jammed. The side room started off with newbies & beginners, as the night wore on the kitchen would start getting louder & the volume & harmony would rise above the rest. The other rooms would start to leave for the kitchen, the strong singers held court & the rest supported them. Eventually the weaker singers grew to become part of the strong core & got to lead on their own. It was magic, a few yrs later the good/strong singers left to form their own Way, the books had taken over & a good thing died an awful death. Today that sing still exists & it still sucks (I visited it the last time I was out there & the one attended by the core that left is smaller but it's good but not nearly as great as it once was. See, I also believe that with out those weaker singers, the newbies & them that don't have such a good voice we all lose something of the spirit & lust, we don't sing as well for ourselves as we do when we're singing for others. It's a wonderful thing to watch singers as they grow but they'll never grow in an enviorment where the level of singing is just a step above the gutter, in 5 yurs time they'll find that they've only sunk into the sewer.
You teach the newbies by setting your own good example. If you've got a wonderful singing club they won't jump in with a book & drag it down, they'll wait until they've been encourged by their betters & that happens as they start to join in with the rest, they get pulled along until they're ready to get their feet wet. They learn as they go! You enjoy listening to a good singer who sings their song well & has the crowd joining in or at a whisper, well they didn't learn their craft overnight, someone pulled them along too or they put in an awful lot of time & effort on their own & no one does it better alone!
An old Cape Horner told me that there was harmony on board ships, where they sang while they worked, even though a good number of the singers sucked at singing, he called it natural harmony among so many, they followed & learned their way by being with those that knew better & were around longer. I believe that every singer that thinks/knows they're bad can be better if they're exposed & surrounded by good singers (or have a voice teacher, which is more fun?), the tone deaf can be corrected to hear what works with others provided they get to sing with others that are good, they'll know with the help of the others & they'll come by some of it on their own too. We can all help to make it better but it can go the other way too, as we've seen & heard about in this thread. RUS, sucks when it's brought into a group sing, keep it at home, on the shelf with the rest of your reference books. Do you bring the whole fucking library to each sing you go to?
You need a cheat sheet? The best cheat sheet I ever saw was when I looked at our own treaties1/Theresa. She had in her hand a small index card with just a couple lead words for each verse, to give her a jolt if she needed it. Now there's a woman with a voice & a spirit to match, what a singer, what a passion & spirit but you'd never know she had any thing to back her up "just in case" & I think that was just for her shaky songs which I can't see that she'd have to many of but she's a wonder to behold. There are ways to get past the need for a note book & library. You don't do yourself any favors & you certinally aren't furthering the group singing at all, you're only dumbing it down.

Barry may be gone but thanks to the 'Cat we have his words of wisdom and experience still here.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM

I am pleased at the supportive tone of this thread.

I use a book - a small subset of the Digital Tradition - and feel funny about using it. I am not a performer - I'm talking about song circles. I try to keep a large repertoire going - I made a rule to myself not to sing the same song to the same group within a year. I sing mostly Child ballads and have about 60 of them going in various levels of "knowing" them. I need my safety net to have the courage to sing.

In some song circles almost everyone uses a book or notes of some variety and in others almost no one does. I have been afraid to sing at some groups where books seemed unwelcome.

Know your song so that you can put it over well, but don't worry about using a book.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM

It's tragic that someone feels the need to ask such a question. It is of no consequence what other people think, it's what you feel comfortable doing that counts. Ignore the anorak folkies they are all mad!!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RWJ
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:14 PM

I have trouble remembering the words but i rarely use a book. I tend to forget to take it.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:23 PM

Bernard, I agree that it's better to use a memory aid than to go blank on a lyric in the middle of a song and then either hem and haw — or, sometimes, even improvise.

Yes, I know, the latter is a lot of where "the folk process" comes from, and it may even be a good thing with trad. songs that have many versions. But if you're singing a song in which the lyricist composed not only specific lyrics but damned good ones, your spur-of-the moment improvisation probably won't be as good, and it's likely to make it HARDER for you to sing the correct lyrics next time.

Nancy, and others, I agree there's a difference between a performing "singaround" and a sing-along-type song circle.    You can't get much singing along unless people know the lyrics. Without lyric sheets of some sort, you're limited to very simple, repetitive songs or very, very familiar ones.
Personally, sometimes I'd even like to provide sheet music, to encourage others to harmonize; if my song is new to most other participants and I go into harmony, the others do too, so no one is carrying melody, and if the song's harmony isn't a simple 3rd above or below, it's rare for anyone else to spontaneously come up with one.    IMO, there are songs that are pretty much MADE by harmonies, and I don't like them to be excluded from sing-alongs because of some rule against using printed materials.

Chris, as for people telling you you "should" learn a song by heart, let me say this:   From early childhood I was blessed with a superior talent for memorizing things like song lyrics, poems, play scripts, etc.   (Too bad it wasn't a very marketable skill!)   It's not as easy for me as it was up to about age 50, but it's still easier for me than for others.   But many others of equal or greater "intelligence" don't have that particular talent, and I think it's pretty presumptive of those of us who CAN memorize lyrics easily to expect everyone else to be able to do it. If you don't yet know the lyrics to your favorite songs by heart, it's not necessarily because you're stupid or lazy.   A rule that nobody can use a book or lyric sheet is kind of like telling people they can't come on the hike if they need a cane or their asthma inhaler.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM

No Bonzo3legs, it's not tragic that someone needs to ask this question. It does matter what other people think when you are performing. That's why we perform. It's to share songs and to make contact with other minds through them. How we do this is not just about ourselves.
I think there are many wise and well-considered opinions on this thread from all kinds of performers. I think it's a valid question and a wise decision to ask it.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM

As Kat pointed out, choirs use music folders or books too, but they don't bury their heads in them. They know the songs but the printed sheet is there as an aid, as needed. Being able to glance at the sheet can prevent brain farts and their consequences.

I find if I have a song sheet in front of me and I know the song, I often don't even need to look at it. Just knowing it's there tends to make me less likely to go blank on a lyric.


Songbob, I agree about the tyranny of everyone having to stick to one particular printed version of a song.   Especially when your preferred version isn't the one in the book or, worse, when the book has some lyrics or chords WRONG. (I'm talking about you, RUS, for one.) "Version creep" can really throw a monkey wrench into a group sing when lyric sheets aren't used.

Acorn, I too prefer someone to use a lyric sheet or crib note than to leave out verses or mix up the order (in songs where that matters) or just bumble through.    And a book can be distracting if people are flipping through it when others are singing or when it comes their turn to lead a song.


Nick, the easiest and fastest way for me to learn a new song - to perform it in front of an audience w/o notes - is to have the lyrics (and maybe chords) in front of me in very large type the first 2 or 3 times I do it in public.    All I do is glance occasionally and briefly at that sheet while I'm playing and singing the song, and by about the 3rd time I don't need the cheat sheet anymore.   (If I don't sing the song again for a while - e.g., a song I do only at Christmas time - I may need to use the cheat sheet one more time to refresh my memory.)   
I think one reason people who use RUS tend to bury their heads in the book is that the type is so small and the format isn't easy to read (with lyrics jumping from the bottom left to the upper right of the page, for example).   If the print on a song sheet is really large, it's easy to read at a glance.
When I use RUS as a song sheet, I do NOT tend to automatically memorize the song the way I do when I use really big print song sheets - probably because so much of my attention is required to follow the format of RUS and read the mice type.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:52 PM

I've been a choir singer all my life, so I ordinarily use a hymnal. I suppose I have to go through a song ten times before I can sing it well from a hymnal (although I often have to get by with going through it once or twice when it's new material). After I've sung it a hundred times, I pretty-much know it by heart, and I'll glance at the hymnal once or twice during a verse - usually just at the beginning. Still, it helps to have the hymnal open for those spots where my mind goes blank.

I've sung from the Rise Up Singing songbook for almost twenty years, and I know most of the songs in that book that I'd want to know. So again, I merely glance at the book once a verse or so, and look at my audience most of the time. But the songs in Rise Up Singing are very well-known, to the point of being worn out. So, I like to learn new stuff. I keep a black folder of song lyrics, one song per page, printed in 16-point type or larger. You can see me singing from that folder here (click). I know this may be hard for some of you to believe, but I've come to the point where people actually request me to sing "Key of R," and I no longer need my lyrics page.

I refrain from using the Rise Up Singing songbook in many situations, because so many people speak of it so disdainfully; but I rarely get negative comments about my lyrics folder. I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time or patience to sing a song a hundred times to myself before I sing it for somebody else. Besides, I've found that I learn a song much better and much faster when I have an audience to interact with.

I try to sing so I'm not a slave to my songbook or lyrics sheet, but I think I sing better without the fear of forgetting lyrics.

One thing I enjoy very much is spending time with a friend or two and singing our way through a songbook, seeing how many songs we know or can learn.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:05 PM

The late, great Barry Finn would sing with anyone- I've watched him!....but as you see, he would 'enjoy' singing more with those who mostly knew their songs..

Record yourself singing...then ask yourself if YOU would enjoy listening to someone singing in the same manner, If not, work on it! Ask people to critique you away from a song circle. Think about the song and what it means and try to put the 'feel' of it into your singing--humor or pathos need different treatment. (Just reciting the words to a vague tune is not fun to listen to.)

I am reminded of a thing I read once about writing... the guy said to ask yourself, "Do I really have something inside me that needs saying, or do I just 'want to have written a book'?" Ask yourself if you really enjoy singing, or you just 'want to have done a song in a group'. It's not always an easy question to answer, but it may help form your approach.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Songbob
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:11 PM

On memorizing, a trick I heard from Michael Cooney:

Learn the song backwards!

Start with the last verse, then sing the last two, then the last three, etc.

The part that gets repeated the most gets remembered the easiest.

Make the later verses the most-repeated, so when you get "into" the song, the parts you usually would have trouble with -- the later verses -- will be the easy verses, since you've repeated them the most.

It's artificial as hell, and hard to stick to as a practice, but it works.

Bob

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:14 PM

You know, I remember when that quote from Barry Finn was first made and, with all possible respect to the guy, I didn't agree then either. There are all kinds of singing venues, and I think they are all represented here in one way or another. A gig, especially a paid gig, to me means that the performer knows his material and memory aids should be limited to a cue sheet with the song order - doesn't always work for everyone, of course. A group sing is a different critter entirely and, as has been said several times, local custom governs.

The term "singaround" used by the OP means different things in different places, and stating that such-and-such is permissible at a song circle or a group singalong but not at a singaround is essentially meaningless. There is a great mix of styles where I "sing"; some participants are confident enough to sing without aids, some like immensely complicated 87-verse ballads for which lyric sheets are essential and some like to sing as part of a group, in which everyone is singing the same thing in the same way. We take turns. Some of the purists out there will certainly say that one or more of those is wrong...and I suppose it is - for them. Some of us do not have the advantage of living where there is another group singing in a different way on another night at a different pub ten miles in the other direction or living in a major metroplex where there is something to fit every taste.

BTW, "Rise Up Singing" and "The Folksingers Wordbook" are very different publications, both are in print, and neither is a precursor of the other.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM

Good points, Bill D.

But what I enjoy LISTENING to and what I enjoy by way of sing-alongs are kind of two different things. It can be great fun, and great physical and emotional therapy, to sing with other people, even if nobody has a great voice.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM

Bob, that "backwards learning" trick is a good one.

But no matter how well you've learned a song, your mind can still go blank momentarily during a song. (Or at least mine can.)   If you're jamming with a few folks, it's usually no biggie. You just go oobie-doobie-doo or someone else provides the line or you just laugh it off. But when you're kind of performing, even if just in a sing-around, performance anxiety can turn that momentary lapse into a full mental block.   That's where cue cards or cheat sheets can be very helpful

Oh, and another very good memorization technique is "errorless learning." Every time you make a mistake, that error kind of gets "learned" in a way, so the more often you practice something with NO errors, the more solid your learning of the correct way will be. This is another reason why it's helpful to use big-print song sheets (I recommend 20-pt or more) as helpers until you have really, really learned a song.

And are you really supposed to sing a song 100 times in private before you ever share it in a song circle or singaround, just so you won't need the 'training wheels' that first time?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM

The key point here, and the one Soldier Boy already understands and accepts, is that all social gatherings have rules. Many of the ideas on this thread are helpful in understanding why this is so. Also they're helpful in suggesting ways of working within the rules.
That gatherings have rules is allowable, and even necessary, in Human society. Nobody questions that say -- a football club -- has certain rules for playing the game.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:22 PM

No.
Learn the song you want to sing at home.
Don't practice in public, do it at home and then come out and sing the song when you know the words and music.
Age is no excuse. I'm 68, still know about 800 songs from memory and don't want to endure venues where people don't know the song well enough to sing it from memory.
That's why I rarely go to folk clubs any more, though I used to love them.
My opinion.It was asked for.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: le cheffie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:47 PM

I sing in pub sessions, I sing and play with my eyes closed, when I sing though I always have the words in front of me, I f people don't like it then tough shit, I go to a session to sing and enjoy my self. If people want to spoil my enjoyment of singing folk songs from a book then that is there look out. I am not a proffesional singer, I'm a bloke with a crap voice who enjoys singing and sod anyone who has a problem with it

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:53 PM

"Is it Ok to sing from a song book?"


So, ya wanna sing from a cook book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Rod
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:57 PM

Use a book by all means - it's a good signal for people to go to the bar...

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mg
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:58 PM

It is OK if you sing in the nude. The key is to figure out what the culture of the session is and act accordingly and state your preferences clearly and nip things in the bud if you can. If runners of something don't speak up, there it goes and you have no one to blame. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:18 PM

If *I* sing in the nude, no one will remember if I sang well or not. Stunned minds will retreat into amnesia.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mg
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:21 PM

If only I shall ever be so lucky. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM

It's okay if you sing in the nude, as long as you stand out.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:30 PM

The answer is yes and no.

If you are doing a stage performance that you want people to remember you by then pick your set, learn it and make it work for you. I have used a song sheet very few times in my life on stage and because I relied on the written word I tended to screw it up because I couldn't it well enough. Better to go commando and have to bluff it.

If you are leading a sing along for old folks( That would be people 15 years older than Kendall Morse)then use a note book full of copies and pass out the sheets to the front row. Everyone of those octogenarian babes will remember how considerate you were. (Women tend to octogenate while men barely septugenize if ever)

Don

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM

I suppose these things are dictated by culture. The culture of folk music seems to demand singing without notes. I come from the Wisconsin summer camp culture, and I absolutely detest having song lyrics sheets at campfires - and had frequent battles with Cub Scout den mothers who demanded that I provide song sheets for their children. Choir singers almost universally use hymnals, and classical singers usually use sheet music. Pop singers are generally expected to know their lyrics, although it seems some of them use TelePrompters or lip-sync.

So, it seems that different styles have different expectations. Still, some of us choir singers who would like to sing folk music, don't feel comfortable with our ability to memorize songs - and we feel excluded by those who demand that we do just that. And some of us camp song singers would like to begin to sing something more adult - and we need help.

So, I dunno. I guess absolutism is the mark of our culture nowadays. People are convinced that there's only one way to do things - their way. But give me a break, hey? Don't look at me when I'm singing, and then decide whether you like how I sing. Lots of people think my singing style is kinda crazy, but they grow to like it. And if you really don't want to see me with a lyrics sheet, I hope you like camp songs.

You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:44 PM

Hey, we're talking about a song circle, not a recital or talent show. The important thing is to share SONGS, not set silly performance standards. If "quality" and "presentation" were so important, you'd have to bar half the singers at the outset--including those who "come prepared". I'll tolerate a lot of dross to hear just a handful of interesting songs. An uncommon song sung from a crib is worth ten of the usual suspects sung prettily from memory.

People have vastly different capacities for memorization, so those to whom it comes relatively easy unjustly look down upon those for whom it's a real challenge--even if the latter can sing better than the former! It's not necessarily "laziness"; it may be more a matter of limitation and assurance.

Singing in a group (particularly if you're the newbie) is daunting and distracting enough without such high-flown expectations. It is no insult to me if a person uses a lyrics sheet to give me his best rendering. The sheet may be his way to quell nervousness, avoid probable blanking and keep focused on the music. Most importantly, he's sharing in the way he feels comfortable, and sharing is supposed to be the main purpose of these gatherings.

I don't judge whether a song is worth singing--or whether a person is fit to sing it, or whether they are "honoring" the song--by whether they can reel it off from memory. After all, not every folksinger is a song-circle diva with stage aspirations, some are actual folk--remember them?

There are many songs I've worked up to the point that I could perform them expressively with a crib, but I don't feel like totally memorizing and actively reviewing them. (Consider Christmas carols and Civil War songs, as easy examples). Nevertheless, they'd be refreshing songs to share at song circles--if people weren't so snooty about song sheets. So the snoots end up depriving themselves and everyone else.

Time to reassess your priorities. Stop making hasty judgments about what it "means" if a person sings from a sheet. Have you grown too accustomed to musical performances pasteurized like Cheez-Whiz? Are you embarrassed by the reminder that your singers mostly learned their songs from Mudcat transcriptions taken from CDs? Does everyone have to be a Kate Rusby wannabe in order to grace your circle or sing in public? Why erect artificial barriers to people just singing and sharing?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:48 PM

Bien dit!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:49 PM

The important thing, as has been noted above (time to go to the bar) is by our actions and attitudes to make neophytes as uncomfortable as possible, and as turned off from actually making (as opposed to experiencing) folk music as we can. The practical upshot of which, which I am sure we can all agree is the important thing, is that once the current generation of singers dies out, nobody will take their place, having been turned off by judgmental and rude attitudes. The death of live folk music, that's what matters.

That's what I'm hearing.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

By now we all realize that there is no one answer. I doubt that there is a consensus, so just play it by ear. If you can sing in public without a book, do so. If people leave it's probably because you can't sing.
If you need a book or you are ill prepared, or you suck as a singer people may leave. That should be your cue.
We all sing because we want to if we are at home or in a club. However, if we sing in public we should be singing for others as well as ourselves, and "Fuck 'em" is an attitude that will get you labeled "Persona non grata"

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 08:47 PM

Yeah, but too often, the judgment is made because the singer uses a book - not because of the quality of the singing.
(although I have to admit that the people without books generally are the better singers)
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 09:42 PM

Most people on this thread seem to have at least some tolerance for some memory-aiding devices in a singaround--which is in fact the topic here, not paid performance.

I would also say that there's no problem with most types of assistance.

But, a few observations:

"Is it OK to sing from a book?" is the topic.   That seems to me different than just glancing at a cue card if necessary--or even holding a sheet with the words to your song.   I'd have no problem with somebody holding a sheet with words--as long as he or she did not have to read every word off the sheet.

Also, if you sing from a book, you set the bar very high for yourself. The song will have to flow, it's best if it has a chorus--and you will have to make eye contact with your audience often--or at least make it clear you are not just reading out of the book.   All this can happen--but it's rare.

If you don't sing from a book , I find audiences are far more forgiving on all these points. What counts is not perfection, but that you have made an effort to learn your song before coming to the venue.

As I noted, I think it's fine for folkies (amateurs) to hold a sheet with words--(not reading the words off the page).   In fact as a talisman it may well ward off stage fright just to know the words are there. Even better if the sheet is folded up and you don't look at it--and that can also serve the purpose.

UK folkies, and the original poster is in the UK, have it much better than US folkies--- in tbe UK there is no chance of Rise Up Singing ever appearing at a session.   Every other book or aid is just fine--but RUS is just the kiss of death to a good session.

Reason:   it makes it just too easy to never even bother to learn a song--and too many people take advantage of this feature.   And if there is one, there is likely to be more than one--which kills spontaneity stone dead and virtually always turns the session into a secular hymn sing. If people would not use RUS as a hymnal, it could be useful. But there is zero chance of that.

As Sandy Paton put it in an earlier thread on this topic:   "Use a crutch continuously and the leg you are taking the weight off will eventually weaken." RUS is a crutch--a strong one--and far too tempting for some people. It's great to learn some songs--at home. And that's where it should stay.   Unless you are leading a group of children.

Any other book or aid is much less of a problem.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Beer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 09:48 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but i am sure i have seen on T.V.when the camera was roaming around on some professional big time band the main singer looking at a karaoke type of screen (on the floor like a monitor that he could see the words to his songs. Damn I wish I could remember the artist.
Adrien

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:18 PM

Beer--

That happens a lot--annoyingly enough.

For the 4th of July in Washington DC my chorus sings backup to various singers at the big concert on the Mall.   Some relatively big names can't seem to either learn their songs or read the teleprompter.   It's amazing.

And, while rehearsing for the Kennedy Center Honors I saw James Taylor ream out a stage hand since he couldn't see the words he was reading.   Why he hadn't learned the song I don't know.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:48 PM

I want to clear up one first point. When I refer to 'a song book' I am not refering to the book "Rise up Singing" or any other "hymnal" sort of song book.
I apologise profusely to my American friends of folk but until now I've never heard of this song book (but I will now look it up).

My song book is well worn and tattered with beer stains and tears, but for me it contains a treasured collection of folk songs I have noted down as I have heard them sung in sessions or have tediously written them down from listening to cassett tapes and CDs over and over or I've lovingly copied from similar 'informal' song books of fellow songsters and friends over many years (with their gracious permission of course).

I've even got some from LP's, older relatives and nowadays; the brilliant and priceless folk knowledge contained in this exeptional site - MUDCAT!

It's been a labour of love and very painstaking at times but it has been worth all the effort to 'capture' my favourite songs and ones that I know others enjoy as well (but often can't remember all the words).

To me, and I am sure for many songsters out there; I have an innate desire to please and that is what guides me in my journey (albeit not all that well travelled so far) to seek out and find songs that I and others will enjoy - especially good, strong and often emotional and meaningful songs as well as humourous songs with a powerful and familiar chorus that everyone can join in with.

I do feel that I can sing from a book and yet still inject the feeling/emotion/meaning/life into the song that it really deserves without coming across as seemingly reading from rote or being deadpan/lifeless/parrot fashion/boring.

Thankfully I have a a very good memory for the music and every note of a song ( I can't read music and haven't a clue what the chords E,G,B,D,F means - except 'Every good boy deserves favour' - which I remember from Junior School!) - so why is it that I can be note perfect (and friends have commented on this being so) but be absolutely useless about remembering the all important lyrics?

Is it something about how the different hemispheres of the brain works or am I just stupidly dsylexic when it comes to words?

Aaaaaaaargh!

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:59 PM

Look at De Dannan and friends doing Hard Times on Youtube. There is at least one person reading lyrics from a page on the floor. Maura O'Connell I believe.

I don't perform with a song sheet unless I absolutely can't help it. People pay for a performance. If you are paid for that time you are a professional and a pro is supposed to show up prepared.

Don

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:31 PM

DonMeixner, I don't understand what you mean when when you mix the terms performance, professional and prepared!

Perhaps, like me, Maura O'Connell was ok with the tune but not so confident with the lyrics; so what's so wrong with having a page on the floor to make sure she didn't stumble?

That's being professional and prepared to ensure they gave a good performance.

Come on bud, give her a break.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:32 PM

Interesting discussion! I almost always sing from memory and I know a lot of songs, but I have suffered lapses even with some that I have written myself. The rare time that I will use a songsheet is when I would choose a song to fill a request or for some special occasion where the song is not one that I usually do. I practice constantly by singing to myself at home, but then again I am retired and have the time to waste. As for nude singing I sometimes do sing in the shower, but I take advice from a song often sung by a good friend,"I Don't Look Good Naked Anymore." :-}


I Don't

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:41 PM

Sorry, link failed. Try this:
I Don't Look Good

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:50 PM

Bob & Ron Copper used sometimes, as part of their tradition, to sing from Jim Copper's book. But I don't think they ever really relied on it.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 03:12 AM

Chris, I have no doubt that what you say is true, that you - like many other fine folk singers I know - can and do use your own lyric sheets, very effectively, in singarounds and song circles.

And, as I mentioned before, the ability to memorize lyrics is but one aspect of skill/intelligence and probably rather independent of others (such as vocal quality, interpretive skill, instrumental skill, etc.).



Mousethief,

You have hit the nail on the proverbial head, as is your wont.   
In the furor over [shudder] the use of books or lyric sheets, or [double shudder] any form of amplification, I often hear both rigidity and elitism.   I don't think we need either.


Don M,
Being professional and being prepared does not automatically exclude the use of sheet music or a lyric sheet or cue card.

As has been mentioned several times in this thread, no matter how many times you have practiced a song in private — perhaps doing it perfectly many times — it is still all too possible to go blank during a performance before an audience. Especially your first time. Using a song sheet does NOT imply that you have not done your homework.

Also, as some of us have mentioned, the book or song sheet is often used for the benefit of the REST of the group, not for the lead singer.   It helps the group be able to sing along.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 03:49 AM

Is it ok for a singer to sing from a song book?
Yes - as long as he/she doesn't mind if this particular audience member leaves the room while he/she is singing.
The need to read the text while singing indicates that the song isn't ready for public performance and the singer hasn't yet made it his/her own - I can honestly say that I have never been moved by a song that has been read from a book.
It is insulting to the maker of the song and to the listener and it suggests, rightly or wrongly, that the singer believes the song not to be worth any great effort.
Put the work in beforehand and don't sing it in public until you have done so.
Would you attempt to sing a song in public if you hadn't learned the tune?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Marje
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 04:58 AM

It's true that some other genres of music do rely on books a lot more, but we're talking about much longer and more complicated works than a 4-verse song. If you're singing Bach's St Matthew Passion, you've got a big fat score that will take a couple of hours or more to get through, and no one expects choirs to do that from memory. Even the parts where you don't sing need to be followed in the score so that you know where to come in again (there's probably only been one run-through with orchestra and soloists). Even church choirs may have several different hymns/anthems for every church service. Another reason that choirs have scores is that they all have to sing it exactly as written - not only the words and the notes, but the dynamics and speed-changes, breathing points, etc, some of which will have been pencilled in for this particular performance. Some conductors won't let choirs sing from memory, as they want everyone to have the last-minute notes on the interpretation in front of them.

Classical soloists often sing from memory, or without much reliance on a book. Pop singers don't sing from books, and neither do country, blues or jazz singers, adn our material is no more difficlut thah theirs.

One final point to consider: you say your memory isn't what it was, but your eyesight is probably diminishing at a similar rate. If you rely on books of words, you may soon find you can't read them in certain lights - it's much safer to put in a bit of work and get the song in your head!

Marje

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 04 Feb 10 - 05:55 AM

Books in evidence but not interfering with the performance