BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 07:26 AM

A useful collection of ideas

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 09:21 AM

I'm not too sure I want government people crawling all over our property...

The pond was obviously put in to be a pond... the stream which feeds it has, for some reason, all but dried up... Sure, rain falls are down but not that much...

I'm leaning toward pumping enough water from my other stream (on my property) to fill it with a 3 inch gas powered pump just to get the water level to the spill pipe... BTW, the water that is in the pond goes down the spill pipe and into the good stream...

Then once it is full use a 110 volt submersible pump for maintenance... of that level... Right now the pond is down about 15 inches and being about a half an acre I reckon would take several hours of pumping to get it filled...

BTW, Part 2... This is mostly rural here with large tracks of corn, wheat and soy bean fields... There doesn't seem to be any of those irrigation apparatuses that I've seen back in Virginia so I don't think that anyone is using the water from the good stream to irrigate crops...

That's my situation...

I have, however, considered buying bentonite clay and taking bags out in my canoe and broadcasting it over the pond in the hopes that it will seal the bottom...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Penny S.
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 04:16 PM

Is bentonite the best material - I've got a sample of it, and it absorbs so much water that it can end up like cream? Would that really seal your pond?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 05:48 PM

Bentonite would seal the crack of yer... you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 05:51 PM

BTW Bobert... how big is this pond? X X Y er whatever and D?

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: open mike
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 06:05 PM

heck, he is in Kansas, of course..
really...12 volt solar pumps are plentiful and easy..
look at your local farm or tractor store,

http://www.backwoodssolar.com/catalog/pumps.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 07:23 PM

the stream which feeds it has, for some reason, all but dried up

Even if there's nobody pulling water out to irrigate upstream, there are lots of other methods of "diversion" that may have reduced the upstream supply of water to the stream.

Lots of "farmland" in my area is subject to poor drainage, and some was unusable during most seasons due to shallow standing water, so "drainages" have been improved, often by laying "perf pipe" under the soil to drain the low spots into some convenient nearby lower spot. If your depleted stream depends on seasonal runoff, and somebody upstream diverts that runoff (by improving drainage?), you don't have a stream any longer. And if your pond depends on a stream that disappears, you don't have a viable ("natural") pond any more.

If you have (or can obtain?) reasonably strong evidence that the pond previously filled naturally, and can identify a change that someone upstream has made that caused the stream to dry up, you probably have a classic "water rights case," and if you pursue it vigorously your grandchildren might be awarded a judgement for compensation so that after the subsequent suits for payment your great grandchildren's nieces and nephews might eventually receive compensation of a dollar or two each - if they can be found by the eventual settlement arbitrator. (As a public-spirited citizen, you quite probably would want to pursue a case of this kind, since it may be expected to provide "pocket change" for a couple of generations of needy attorneys.)

Of course, in order to pursue this sort of claim, you would need to document the situation before you make any changes to restore the pond since a successful restoration would vacate your abiltiy to "show harm." And if changes you make are present when the C of E guys come in to see what's happened upstream, somebody downstream will have documentation that your diversion of water from the other stream has caused them to suffer a crop failure.

Even if the spillway puts any excess back into the stream it came from, surface evaporation from the "artificial pooling" may reduce the total downstream flow since you can't put back as much as you take out.

Of course, before taking any action against the upstream person(s) who dried up your original stream, you'll have to be certain that the upstream person doesn't have a downstream cousin willing to file the retailatory suit over any restoration of the pond you might be ocnsidering, so local water-rights suits end up like a game of "spin the bottle" where the bottle points to the first asshole but eveybody eventually ends up getting f**d a kiss.

If you go with your plan to pump water to the pond, you can respond to any serious complaints - should any appear - by just turning off the pump, which in a "small claim" case would likely be considered sufficient "remediation," while building a dam or otherwise "passively diverting" a flow might require a bulldozer to restore things to prior condition. (I know of at least two "unfinished dams" in my nearby area that date back to about 60 years ago - just from the "inbred branch" of some backdoor relatives.)

A simple "go-back" plan can be important, and you probably have a fairly good one, even if by accident.

If your existing pond retains some permanent water from its existing inflow, another option might be to dredge and deepen, using the muck you dredge out to build up the banks and reduce the water surface area - or just move some fill dirt. (You'd need planned plantings to stabilize the new banks?) The reduction in evaporative losses might help significantly to stabilize the net retention of water, although you might end up with a "garden pool" rather than a pond given the present size of the pond. Of course you'd have additional "dry ground" for the rock garden, and you could fish from the bank instead of needing a kayak.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: MarkS
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 07:32 PM

Dig a trench between the creek and the pond. Line it with pickles. This technique was used in an old Reginald Brentnor story, who tought us that.....................


"Dill water runs steep."



I'll go back into my cave now.

Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Jun 11 - 08:07 PM

Okay, the pond is about 200 feet long and about 80 feet wide at it's widest...

As for water rights??? Hey, I'm the new kid on the block so the last thing I need to to is open up an cans of worms with the locals...

As fir pickles??? I donno, Mark... That was purdy retarded... You didn't spike them pickles with some controled substances, did ya'???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 02:54 AM

Move to the coast. Water runs up the beach twice a day.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: harmonic miner
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 03:13 AM

It's BS alright!

To raise anything against gravity you need energy. You have to get it from somwhere, a pump of some kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 03:44 AM

There is energy in the flow of water.

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 06:07 AM

I haven't found an accurate formula, but one "pond designer" asserts that in the southwest US loss of about an inch per day due to evaporation is fairly common, although in "temperate areas" about a quarter inch is more common. The latter comment is adjusted by the notation that with a lot of vegetation the plant transpiration can blow off an inch per day even where temperatures are pretty moderate.

Your 200 ft long pond, with a maximum width of 80 feet suggests an "average width" of perhaps 40 ft, or 8,000 sq feet of water surface. Evaporation of 1/4 inch would give you a daily loss of only about 33 cubic feet, and 7.5 gal/ft³ gets to about 240 gallons per day.

At the higher evaporation/transpiration rates (an inch per day) you might need 4x that (900+ gallons per day?).

Since the source for these estimates was a guy who's business depends on scaring people into letting him do their ponds for them, they may be "a little distorted"(?).

Even 1,000 gallons per day is probably not too unreasonable with a fairly modest gas or electric pump (30 gpm?), running for a few hours a day; but I've found the "rated rates" a little on the optimistic side for the few I've had occasion to use. It's easier to find honest 30 gph ratings, which may be a bit marginal if you really need lots of replenishing.

The same site does suggest that you should be able to tell whether you're losing water due to leakage in addition to evaporation by putting a bucket of water on the bank (screened to keep the moose from drinking it?) and comparing the drop in pond surface with the drop in bucket depth (over a few days time?). I'd think you'd get better accuracy if the bucket was at least sunk into the bank, so that the water in the bucket is at "ground temperature," but that may not be necessary. The article probably refers to "small pools" where the measurement would easier, but with a few days rather than one or two you should be able to get good ideat.

If you have a larger suface, like a stock tank or a wading pool that you can leave undisturbed for a few days it might also help at getting a better comparison. A stake in the water should suffice for a "depth gage" for the pond if you use neat skinny marks for accuracy, and don't have too much wave action.

The commercial "pool builders" don't seem to place much faith in bottom improvements via something like your idea of dumping some bentonite in; but again - they're in it for the profit and may be biased. Their recommendation is that even good clay should be "compacted thoroughly" with the pond empty, if you really need to stop seepage - but I can't vouch for that recommendation.

You might get a fair amount of bottom compaction even with the water in the pond with a couple of sticks of dynamite; but that would wake up the neighbors - and possibly empty the pond anyway. Should that happen, be careful about dragging the sheepsfoot around with your Kubota. Them bottoms can be treacherous when they've been wet for a while.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 02:17 PM

Ya gotta mix the bentonite with sand er else yer bentonite will simply wash away, even if it gets evenly distributed which ain't likely. Now, ya can drop in bentonite liners (mats) but ya gotta seal tha seams with a sand/bentonite mix and that ain't easy under yer water. AND, ya gotta have some big quip ta handle tha rolls... and a bank account that can handle em too.

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Jun 11 - 02:46 PM

Ya can't just dump it in and pack it down with a couple of boom sticks? In that neighborhood they'd probaly just think ya wuz fishin'.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 02:31 AM

In Sussex, people built dew ponds for the sheep on the Chalk, by lining dug hollows with "puddled clay" which was ordinary clay trodden in by cattle, the treading making sure there were no cracks.

According to Kipling, these ponds were "unfed, but never" failing. I think a lot are now dry, but they were fed by rain. We're a wetter place than Bobert's.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Louie Roy
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 10:19 AM

There is a plastic product available that will pump a 25 foot head without any electricity and has been on the market for at least 30 years and is used mostly in septic systems.It is placed in the sepyic tank and when it fills up it pumps out 90 gallon of sewerage water to the drain field and then quits until it fills up again

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 10:27 AM

Wait for Hurricane Alfonse. That'll fill it us. 'Course it might also be with trees, your house, your car....

Better yet, since yer so impatient, take a hike up the creek that used to feed the pond and find out what stopped the water flow. Let's say that you find the flow was stopped by somebody upstream building a dam. Like JiK says, you got a case for court -- and water rights don't depend upon the owner but upon how long the pond was there and stuff like that. Alternately, a few stick of dynamite.... Remember, the problem could be on your own land.

Or (and I really like this idea!), back up two trucks of liquid hydrogen and one of liquid oxygen. Run hoses from each out to the center of the pond and open the valves!

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: maeve
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 10:34 AM

This may be of interest, Bobert: Three methods, two forms of Bentonite

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM

"Sprinkle"? Never heard of it and it seems pretty dicey to me. Of course, the fuel tank farms I designed and built are high and dry and the slurry walls were by high pressure injection. No ponds involved.

Bobert... let us know what kinda coin they are talkin eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 06:06 PM

I'm leaning toward the sprinkle method... It really can't wash away...

John may be on to something about packing it... I was thinkin' about a lawn roller...

Sprinkle the stuff and pull a heavy water filled lawn roller over the bottom with a long heavy rope and my tractor???

I donno... Maybe I fill it in and turn it into a big vegetable garden???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 07:53 PM

Have you ever considered pisciculture?

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 08:11 PM

"It really can't wash away"

I didn't know they made a pellet form mix. Certainly worthinvestigating but I still have my doubts about it's application/effectiveness. From the website, you shouldn't have to "roll it" if it's spread evenly and sufficiently.

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 09:24 PM

Sprinkle the stuff and pull a heavy water filled lawn roller over the bottom with a long heavy rope and my tractor???

??? Are you able to drain the pond in order to prep the bottom????

If so, you don't need a really heavy roller, although a "sheepsfoot" roller would compact the soil better, with fewer passes than a simple cylinder.

If you're thinking of compacting under water, remember that the water in a roller has about the same density as the water it displaces, so you don't really get much more surface load than if you used the roller empty on dry ground. If you're jury-riggin' your own roller, maybe filling it with concrete ... but a round roller won't compact more than the top inch or so, regardless. It ain't the pounds that does it deeper, it's the pounds per square inch.

If you can drain the pond and let a dozen cows tromp around in it for a few days, you might get it pretty well mashed in without a lot of mechanical assistance. Or if you can get the water "wadin' depth" you might just have a mud rasslin' contest if you can get 'nuff drunken rasslers. (but I'm not sure you could convince the gals here that the Bentonite is "brown jello").

John

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Fossil
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 11:25 PM

What Penny S was talking about is a Sussex "dew pond", generally built high up on the South Downs (chalk hills) in Sussex, UK.

This is a circular excavation in the chalk, lined with impervious material like clay. They have no water source at all, but rely on the fact that the air at the top of the hill is cooled by altitude and as water condenses as dew it is trapped by the clay and accumulates over time to form a pond. Also, I suppose, they get filled by rain water from time to time. Probably in the Google somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Fossil
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 11:33 PM

Dew ponds: here we are then:

"The gang of dew-pond makers commence operations by hollowing out the earth for a space far in excess of the apparent requirements of the proposed pond. They then thickly cover the whole of the hollow with a coating of dry straw. The straw in turn is covered by a layer of well-chosen, finely puddled clay, and the upper surface of the clay is then closely strewn with stones. Care has to be taken that the margin of the straw is effectively protected by clay. The pond will eventually become filled with water, the more rapidly the larger it is, even though no rain may fall. If such a structure is situated on the summit of a down, during the warmth of a summer day the earth will have stored a considerable amount of heat, while the pond, protected from this heat by the non-conductivity of the straw, is at the same time chilled by the process of evaporation from the puddled clay. The consequence is that during the night the warm air is condensed on the surface of the cold clay. As the condensation during the night is in excess of the evaporation during the day, the pond becomes, night by night, gradually filled. Theoretically, we may observe that during the day, the air being comparatively charged with moisture, evaporation is necessarily less than the precipitation during the night. In practice it is found that the pond will constantly yield a supply of the purest water."

Easy, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jun 11 - 03:48 PM

the oldest way known to pump water anywhere, except for the foot driven water wheel.

more for the curious
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/piramides/esp_piramide_11a.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 12:19 PM

Thanks for that, Fossil. I wonder if the rising of air up the slope of the Downs had anything to do with making condensation more likely. Not relevant to Bobert, of course, apart from the clay puddling. The Bentonite site was interesting - if the company has been going a while without complaints, the methods presumably work.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Fossil
Date: 09 Jun 11 - 06:57 PM

Regarding the mechanism of a dew pond, I know from personal experience that the tops of the South Downs can get pretty hot, but they can also get very chilly at night. Perhaps dew-ponds work better up high, as the temperature differential between daytime and night-time is greater than down on the plain. Dunno, really, but I see no reason why they shouldn't work anywhere.

In 2011, my guess would be that you could find more effective insulation material than straw to underlay your clay. I believe that most of the dew-ponds that failed, did so because the straw got wet or decayed, hence lost the insulation. Some kind of really thick glass-fibre or plastic closed-cell foam would probably do the trick.

I have abolutely no intention of trying to build one, however!

Subject: RE: BS: Get'n h2o uphill w/o pump... J-n-Kansas?
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Jun 11 - 04:38 AM

It also gets pretty windy up there, which would encourage evaporation. I have difficulty ruling out rain as a major factor in keeping them full, though - until recently. And an evaporated pond would crack, wouldn't it. I expect that back in the days when my great-grandfather was up there with his sheep, the ponds were regularly maintained, and what we see in failed ponds is the result of not doing it.

I did see something on TV looking very like a dewpond in the middle of a pasture in Italy, at the bottom of a valley. It was on a program in which it was being argued that what Constantine saw at the Milvian Bridge was a meteorite, and that this pond was its crater. I had my doubts.

Penny