BBC Folk Awards winners?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 07:47 AM

Rather than worrying about who the judges are, it would be far more interesting to know the criteria for the different categories.

I don't begrudge June Tabor her "Folk Singer of the Year" award in the slightest, she's one of my all-time favorites, but what's she done this year that's so special? Apart from appearing on the "Best Album" with the "Best Group" performing the "Best Traditional Track"...

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 07:52 AM

And touring with the band performing all that best stuff...

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,John Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 07:53 AM

Great that Steve Tilston got some more recognition for his work - a fine singer, songwriter and musician.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:21 AM

John Tams always gets his rather tiresome anti Conservative dig in - almost a gimmick I think, but the Home Service award was spot on.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: evansakes
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:32 AM

Agreed, Bonzo...a few people have made comments about how disappointing they were at Cambridge but in my view they were astonishingly good at Shrewsbury. Not just me either....they nearly lifted the roof off the tent. Easily the best live set I saw last year...

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:54 AM

Video and audio now on BBC iPlayer at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01byn6w/BBC_Radio_2_Folk_Awards_08_02_2012/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01bljzz/BBC_Radio_2_Folk_Awards_Radio_2_Folk_Awards_2012/

Can be viewed at or listened to at these web sites or downloaded using get_iplayer (use the above links and then click on Record).

If overseas use ExpatShield (or commensurate app.) first.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:14 AM

So unfair to criticise Don MacClean....... he learned at the feet of Les Dawson.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:23 AM

I enjoyed watching on TV. A shame Pilgrims' Way didn't win the Horizon award (but then I'm biased) and very pleased Isocaid won the Young Folk award, I know the fiddle player's uncle and he's an exceptional musician as is Niall himself, and they both come from a long tradition of, er, traditional musicians.

As for the anti-tory digs, quite right too. It was on the red button after all.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:43 AM

t least Ian Campbell dressed for the occasion unlike Christy Moore who looked like he'd just come in from walking the dog."
Some of us put on a suit and tie to walk the dog

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:49 AM

I wouldn't normally go anywhere near this sort of media hype, but looked in to see what they'd say about Malcolm Taylor (another well deserved honour among all the others). I was pleasantly surprised and enjoyed the show. There were some worthy winners, and good to see one of the youngsters, Bella Hardy, get something.

I actually enjoyed the Ian Campbell tribute. I thought at first his response was going to be a political diatribe, but found it quite amusing, especially when he sang. Nice one.

I was also pleased to see, although nominated, the Emperor's New Clothes didn't win anything.

The Don MacClean fiasco was about what I'd expect to see from this sort of show.

Hitherto not a big fan of June Tabor, but she has gone way up in my estimation on this showing.

Well done to Oyster and the Dubs, and John Tams who is now an 'actore' and is turning into a MacColl clone. Only joking.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:52 AM

Radio 2 prog. at:

http://www.mediafire.com/?w0ksgmw4zz3eic3

Dubliner's 50 tribute at:

http://www.mediafire.com/?4r1t52a3idov4yk

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Western Suze
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 11:00 AM

"I don't begrudge June Tabor her "Folk Singer of the Year" award in the slightest, she's one of my all-time favorites, but what's she done this year that's so special? "

A solo album called Ashore as well. 2011 was a very productive year for JT. In a way it's a shame that Ragged Kingdom obliterated her own album in the awards for the year, but sort of inevitable when the former is such a superb collaboration.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 11:14 AM

Overall I was pleasantly surprised at how much I enjoyed what I saw. Missed most of the second half due to a slight domestic crisis but I'll watch it later. It was great to hear the various digs at our neo-Thatcher shit of a government. I loved the applause from Lucy Ward and her parents, Tony and Chris, when the erstwhile Mr Tams was holding forth with his usual articulate gusto. Listen to her brilliant new single, 'For the Dead Men', and you'll see why:

Lucy Ward - For the Dead Men

That's what folk is all about!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 11:15 AM

I suppose my point, not very well made, was that there are probably lots of reasons why June won, and why the others were nominated, but we don't know what they are.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Azoic
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 01:03 PM

I'd love to see the BBC release a dvd of June singing "Lili Marlene" on "The Daughters Of Albion" presentation.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: evansakes
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 01:51 PM

"I suppose my point, not very well made, was that there are probably lots of reasons why June won, and why the others were nominated, but we don't know what they are"

No, just one reason.....she got more votes than the others nominated (and they in turn got more votes than everyone else)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 02:46 PM

Yes, but on what basis were those votes cast? Is it based on outstanding achievements in the year in question, whether the judge likes their music, or because it's somebody's turn? There must be some guidance for the judges, and it would be informative to know what they are, if only to add to the fun of trying to guess who'll win.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:05 PM

However, as precisely done as it was, Martin Simpson's "Lakes of Ponchatrain" was IMHO absolutely horrible.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00p0gl2

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,AEOLA
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:27 PM

I enjoyed the show, disappointed with Don M.that sort of performance doesn't do Folk any good.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: srothman
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 08:05 PM

Awards ceremonies are all about being positive and congratulatory - but hats off to Steve Knightley for seizing the opportunity to make a few telling points about the way folk musicians are treated by music business.

And he's the one who's always accused by the folk mafia of having sold out...

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 08:22 AM

The 'live' programme is still looping around every hour on BBC Red Button Freeview 310.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Silas
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 08:28 AM

Have to agree Richard - starting the BBC2 Folk Awards with a country and western song was a little peverse.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 08:34 AM

Loads of footage now on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=folk+awards+2012&oq=folk+awards+2012

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 08:55 AM

"Have to agree Richard - starting the BBC2 Folk Awards with a country and western song was a little peverse" - e missing I fear

Better that than the hideous tuneless ramblings of unthanks!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Girl Friday
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 09:26 AM

I haven't yet listened or viewed, but, am I right ? A friend has said she thinks there was no Folk Club of The Year Award this year.

This was the only award voted for by us, the people.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Silas
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 09:34 AM

Nope, the folkclub was voted for by performers at folk clubs.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 09:38 AM

...... and was quietly dropped a couple of years ago.

Probably not enough in it for folk "Industry".

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 11:12 AM

I`m sorry, but I just don`t get the hype over Seth Lakeman.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Silas
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 11:45 AM

...... and was quietly dropped a couple of years ago.

Probably not enough in it for folk "Industry".



Explain?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 12:17 PM

"Explain?"

The awards are largely there (it seems to me) to promote artists that have agents, managers, record labels etc. Apart from possibly the Young Folk Award I can't think of any of the nominees, winners or performers on the night who don't fall into these categories. (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong!).

Most of the nominated artists are also more interested in the festival circuit (who can blame them, it pays better).

A lot of Folk Clubs are still prepared to book some artists that don't fall into these categories..... I just don't think the Folk Club of the Year category fits with the ethos of the awards organisers anymore. Because most of the (150 or so) judges are (ones I'm aware of anyway) agents, managers, record label bosses, magazine editors, reviewers and the like. Not many who are JUST Folk Club Organisers or audience.

Folk Clubs aren't important to the "industry" side of folk anymore, just not enough money in them.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Silas
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 12:23 PM

I don't think you could be more wrong. The Folk Club Award was voted for by folk artists, I don't know why it has been dropped, probably because all the artists liked the same clubs, seems from memory to have been either the Davy Lamp or Nettlebed.

The Club is still the bedrock of the folk society, there would be no performers without the clubs.

If you think about it for more than a nonosecond, it will become obvious why it appears to be only top names that are getting awards.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 12:31 PM

2006 - Red Lion, Birmingham
2007 - Ram Folk Club
2008 - Dartford Folk Club
2009 - Black Swan, York
2010 - Magpies Nest

Do you want me to go further back? Looks like a good spread to me.

I have no probs with the top names winning the awards and I like the awards!..... not sure about transparency of the nominations and judging sometimes but that's another matter.

...... and I run a guest booking folk club.

But those weren't your questions. You asked me to explain why I thought they had dropped the Folk Club of The Year Award.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Silas
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 12:33 PM

Actually I wanted you to explain your not enough in it for the folk industry comment.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 12:36 PM

...... I thought I did??

You might disagree - and you might be right! I don't have the inside track, merely expressing an opinion.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: srothman
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 12:51 PM

Probably not enough in it for folk "Industry".

Well said, Banjiman - folk clubs are where most of our music is listened to - and where all the award winners started out. Most of them only deign to play concert venues these days, with a handful of exceptions - Martin Carthy, John Kirkpatrick, Vin Garbutt etc.

But, as Steve Knightley tried to point out, the odds are stacked against folk musicians trying to generate even a modest income, whatever the type of venue.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Silas
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 12:53 PM

srothman, would you like to name some names? I am not aware of any folk performer who will not play clubs, there may be the odd exception, but I can't think of one myself.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 12:58 PM

Silas....... let me help-

Christy Moore, Home Service, June Tabor, Oysterband

Not that I blame them, as I say not enough money.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Banjmiman
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 12:59 PM

Sorry, post above was me!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Silas
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 01:05 PM

Well, the problem with Home service and the Oyster Band is that there loads of them, same with bellowhead. You can't really expect a professional musician to perform for much less than £150.00 for a night and if there are six of them that is £900.00. That is a lot for a club, but i bet if they were to pay it, the band would perform. Christy Moore - well, OK, I'll give you that one.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 01:10 PM

But you see my point Silas....... they were all Folk Award Winners.

I just don't think that there is much interest from artists at that level and the people that surround them in giving Folk Clubs National TV exposure, or exposure of any kind really. There's just no money in them any more.

Which is a shame because my wife is playing Oxford Folk Club tonight! She'll not be getting rich and I'll have to go to work on Monday!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Silas
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 01:19 PM

Well, it is difficult. It is grossly unfair to undervalue the talent that we have in the folk scene, yet it is also difficult for artists being accused of turning their backs on the very clubs that gave them the opportunity to get to where they are.
Perhaps we should look at clubs as the apprentiships for folk performers, and tyhe festivals and concerts as the place to see those who have made it big.
All the guys you have mentioned ha dto start somewhere and it was invariably the local clubs. The system works, I believe and I am quite happy with it.
Would I pay £30.00 to see Christy Moore - no. But I am glad that he has sufficient presence and following to be able to demand that sort of booking, it is good for the genre.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 01:23 PM

I wouldn't argue with any of that Silas.

...... it's just how the world is and I don't begrudge anyone making a decent living.

I'm not accusing the artists of turning their backs, just that there are real financial constraints in the folk clubs just now. The Folk Awards have to support the industry side of folk, that's where the money and ratings are. I'm not criticising, I'm just saying that's how it is.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 01:53 PM

i think CM still plays folk clubs - but its on his terms and when he wants. And of course, its not his bread and butter - so you no longer get letters hustling for work from him.

I seem to remember various accounts of him cropping up in smallish venues. he's got the entertaining bug - that boy.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 02:58 PM

"The awards are largely there (it seems to me) to promote artists that have agents, managers, record labels etc. Apart from possibly the Young Folk Award I can't think of any of the nominees, winners or performers on the night who don't fall into these categories. (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong!)."

It's there to promote the best artists in the genre. The liklihood is that anyone prominent enough on the scene to attract the attention of sufficient judges to get nominated, let alone win, will have agents, managers, record labels etc. They're professional musicians - what would you expect?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 02:59 PM

Whoops! that was me, lost my cookie again

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: r.padgett
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:05 PM

Dropping the folk club award si perhaps indicative of the drive towards concerts by more established acts and of course festivals!

This is a problem as there is a division between club sessions (music and song) by lesser performers and other formats, of which there are a number!

New Initiative towards more folky smaller clubs is welcome ~ specifically looking to promote newer club acts and I don't mean just new younger acts!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 04:48 PM

So why do you think the Folk Club award got dropped Howard?

.....and that's a friendly challenge!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 08:10 PM

In 1986 there was an attempt to run a week long Folk festival in Harrow which , due to anumber of reasons was a tOTAL fiasc0 ! I was Short listed for 'Song Director' , but I got lucky and Hugh Diamond had the Unenviable job of booking artists for a programme based on the previous years Sidmouth Programme , but with only SIX Months to do it .
One of the complaints I heard was that ALL the acts were "ONLY" Club acts , not "REAL" Festival acts , and it seems that these are the people who get nominated for the Folk Awards .
As pointed out above , not many clubs can stretch to the money that
even 4 or 5 pice bands of any quality quite reasonably expect , so there is a BIG gap between Festival , Art Centre , and Major Concert Gigs and your 'average ' small folk Club .

Carry on from there !

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:57 AM

Ok, quite a few of the larger collections of folk musicians, Bellowhead being a good example, are made up of individuals, duos etc. that also go out in those formats and play folk clubs and other small venues.

Seems like an all round good thing

L in C#

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards winners?
From: Hamish
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 05:18 AM

King of Rome: The Unthanks and The Brighouse and Rastrick Band: King of Rome. Astoundingly brilliant. Perfect. Made me cry it was so sublime.