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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: bobad Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:17 PM Hugo Chávez revolution mired by claims of corruption Rory Carroll The Guardian Wilmer Azuaje was a young firebrand when he joined Hugo Chávez's revolution a decade ago to topple Venezuela's corrupt ruling class. He was elected to the national assembly and worked with the president's family to turn their home state of Barinas, a rural backwater of cattle ranches, into a laboratory of change. Azuaje was inspired by Chávez's promise to sweep away a history of graft and patronage which had stunted an oil-driven economy. "I believed in the process of reform," said Azuaje. Not anymore. The baby-faced protege, once a rising star in the ruling party, has now become the Chávez family's most outspoken foe. "They turned out to be the most corrupt ever. They betrayed us." Azuaje has blown the whistle on what he claims is a kleptocratic dynasty in Barinas where farms, businesses, banks and government contracts have been pocketed by the president's parents and five brothers. The allegations come amid wider complaints that the revolutionary socialist movement known as "chavismo" has been hijacked by money-driven opportunists inside, or close to, the government. Nationalisations, the creation of new state enterprises and a maze of price and currency controls have spawned well-connected millionaires nicknamed Boligarchs, after the independence hero revered by Chávez, Simón Bolívar . Murky state finances meanwhile have put Venezuela 162nd, alongside Angola and Congo, out of 180 countries in Transparency International's corruption perceptions index. Chávez appears to have recognised the wheel has turned: that the cry against corruption which helped bring him to power in 1998 will be used against his candidates in September's legislative elections. "This party has to tighten the moral belt," he said in December last year. The charismatic leader remains popular with many of the poor for spending oil revenues on social programmes but with the economy shrinking and widespread electricity and water shortages the perception of sleaze could tip the balance against his PSUV party. Some 64% think corruption has worsened and regard things to be generally going badly, according to a recent poll. For Chávez it is especially galling that Barinas, the family fiefdom and revolution showcase, is now cited for corruption, nepotism and misrule. Critics have a list of grievances and accusations which make the state's administration sound like a soap opera. Chávez's father ruled as governor for a decade until handing over to the president's brother, Adán, in an election marred by fraud allegations. Other brothers are also thriving: Aníbal is mayor of nearby Sabaneta; Adelis is a top banker at Banco Sofitasa, which enjoys government contracts; Argenis wields enormous clout as a political fixer; Narciso is reportedly planning his own election run. Members of what is dubbed the "royal family" travel in convoys of 4x4s. The president's once-matronly mother, Elena, has had a makeover with plastic surgery, designer clothes, bling jewellery and a poodle named Coqui. It is alleged the family bought thousands of hectares of farmland through proxies, including a former labourer, Nestor Izarra, who is named as the owner of one estate, La Malagueña. The family has denied any wrongdoing. The cost of a football stadium built under Adelis Chávez's supervision ballooned to $93m (£60m) and remains unfinished three years after hosting its first game. A Venezuelan-Cuban sugarcane project has been mired in a $1.5m embezzlement scam. The state government uses emergency decrees for public works which bypass open tender requirement and allegedly reward cronies. Crime, notably kidnapping, has exploded, with even the middle class and poor falling prey to gangs which brazenly abduct victims from roads, shopping malls and universities. You are four times likelier to be kidnapped in Barinas than Colombia or Mexico. "The courts have collapsed, there are backlogs for everything," said Pedro Pablo González, a lawyer and political activist. "There are not enough investigators, prosecutors or police, it's a mess." He recently led a 19-day 500km protest walk to the capital, Caracas. Many local "chavistas" have defected to the opposition. "Really, it became too much," said Lorenzo Saturno, a legislator who quit the ruling party. "Corruption is out of control and the Chávez family has total impunity." Loyalists say that is a smear which overlooks new roads, houses, schools and employment projects dotting Barinas's plains and dusty towns. Why else would voters keep the Chávez family in power, said Miguel Angel León, president of the regional legislative council. "This is a happy, dynamic state. The football stadium, for instance, is about to be finished. But a few protesters are able to manipulate the media to make Barinas look bad," he told the Guardian. Other loyalists say the president proved his anti-corruption credentials during a banking scandal last December when he purged a senior minister, Jesse Chacón, and businessmen with ties to the government. "We are demonstrating that there are no untouchables here," Chávez said at the time. Sceptics said the shakeup owed more to a feud between rival ruling factions than a crackdown on sleaze. And that the fate of whistleblowers showed there were indeed untouchables. Luis Tascón, an ultra-chavista legislator, was expelled from the ruling party and called a traitor after accusing senior officials of corruption. Azuaje (left), the Barinas firebrand, has had a torrid time since delivering to the national assembly a package of pictures, deeds and documents which he said proved the Chávez family amassed an illicit $20m fortune. The government-controlled assembly dismissed the claims after a brief inquiry. The 33-year-old legislator said he then reaped a whirlwind: shots fired at his home; a brother killed; his mother and wife fired from state jobs. The latest alleged reprisal: a criminal charge that he abused and struck a policewoman. The national assembly recently lifted Azuaje's immunity as a lawmaker, an unusual step, after which he was handcuffed and briefly detained. The supreme court also barred him from publicly discussing the charges. It is unclear if he will be able to run in September's election. "This is about revenge, clear as day. Chávez has not forgiven me for accusing his family," he said. Amnesty International said the government was using the judiciary to persecute Azuaje and other opponents. "Charges brought for political reasons against critics are being used to silence dissent and prevent others from speaking out," the watchdog claimed last week. Chávez supporters claimed that was unfair. People suspected of crime were being brought to book, as simple as that, wrote Eva Golinger, editor of the state-backed newspaper Correo del Orinoco International. "Ideology is not an exemption from criminality. After a lengthy period of impunity in Venezuela, the judicial system is finally beginning to risk imposing the law, at whatever cost." |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: bobad Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:39 PM "Well if the 'Host of "The Fernando Espuelas Show" on Univision America Network' says it there's no arguing with that..." Belittling the messenger and not addressing the substance of what he says......very weak for someone of your stature. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:17 AM "merely on the basis on headlines". Hey, no problem. How about somebody leaping to the conclusion that the US murdered Chavez because one of his allies says he was done in by "enemies"? Gee, I'm still patiently waiting for you to show you have any knowledge whatsoever of Chavez' health prior to yesterday. Wonder why you still haven't gotten around to addressing this---since it is in fact the crux of the problem. Look, it boils down to the difference between theory and rumor. Without any evidence, an allegation is a rumor. There are allegations that Churchill withdrew ships shepherding the "Lusitania" so that it would be sunk, and the loss of American life would bring the US into World War I right then--1915. I have looked into this. There is no evidence to support it. So it is no more than a rumor. I could cite other outlandish assertions for which the same is true. Quite a few posters left of center need learn the difference between theory and rumor. Otherwise they appear weak-minded or prisoners of their own paranoia. To reject rumor does not mean you are "rushing to judgment". It means you can think--and are willing to do so. So it's time for anybody who wants to elevate the "US murdered Chavez" idea from rumor to theory to come up with some actual evidence. Now. Otherwise they seem rather pathetically gullible. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: akenaton Date: 07 Mar 13 - 03:37 AM Put the kettle on!.....Bobad is off on one of his cut and paste expeditions.......carefully mining the opinions of so called experts all with their individual axes to grind. This forum is at its most useful when illustrating the opinions of members supported by facts. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:05 AM How about somebody leaping to the conclusion that the US murdered Chavez because one of his allies says he was done in by "enemies"? That would indeed be foolish. You seem to be under the impression that I have done that. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: dbranno Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:00 AM Billy is on... milk and sugar? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: bobad Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:00 AM "Put the kettle on!.....Bobad is off on one of his cut and paste expeditions.......carefully mining the opinions of so called experts all with their individual axes to grind." Unlike the resident armchair socialists with their own axes to grind once again duped by another typically corrupt dictator because he hands out candies to the poor. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Ed T Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:00 AM "Some 64% think corruption has worsened and regard things to be generally going badly, according to a recent poll" Kinda a "sketchy" poll statement? If one took a poll in most western countries over the past few years, I suspect many would respond that "things to be generally going badly" Corruption in a South America country - (that's hardly worth reporting on). Let's not forget that broad change in corruption, at the level it was in Venezuala's past (long before Chevez) would be difficult for anyone to turn around quickly. One should also not forget that Chvez has been seriously ill for some time, and who knows how well government has been managed when a domanant leader is absent. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Ed T Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:21 AM From this report, it seems that Chevez was on the right course, with the right intent-but faced unforseen problems (I suspect from inside the coumntry, and encouraged from outside). When I reviewed some of the items raised, in measuring the deficiencies, I considered whether similar things have happened or is happening in regimes in other countries, especially western countries and south American nations. I found that not all, but some of the items are similar, such as packing legal bodies (Supreme Court) with those supportative of government policies and attempts to curtail strikes in essential industries. Again, is it reasonable to measure Chavez against a higher scale than other leaders in similar situations - a scale that others also don't mmeasure up to? Chavez and Human rights full report |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: bobad Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:40 AM And this just in from the other glorious leader: N Korea threatens US with nuclear attack "North Korea has vowed to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike against the US, hours ahead of a UN vote on whether to level new sanctions against Pyongyang for its recent nuclear test." |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:46 AM I wouldn't hold my breath about that. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: akenaton Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:49 AM Naw....cant be right!....there's only been one nuclear strike, pre-emptive or otherwise, but its been so long since it happened that i just can't remember who did it. Oh just a threat?.....well they all do that...don't they. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:01 AM Much of that anti-Chavez rhetoric spewing out of the States is fuelled by his warm relations with Iran. Not warm enough in my view, because he never supported Iran's aspiration to develop nuclear weapons. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: bobad Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:04 AM Human Rights Watch report on Venezuela released two days ago: Venezuela: Chávez's Authoritarian Legacy " Hugo Chávez's presidency (1999-2013) was characterized by a dramatic concentration of power and open disregard for basic human rights guarantees." But he did cut a dashing figure with his red beret and phony socialist rhetoric, did he not? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Bill D Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:20 PM Well Peter K ... while I am quite aware that Chavez was elected, I am also aware that his continued 'elections' were pretty well manipulated. A dictator is usually identified and defined by how thoroughly he controls the machinery of his country, not by whether he pleases a certain % while doing it. Chavez ...whatever YOU wish to call him, was smarter than many who get continued control of a country, and realized that superficial benevolence would get him further than the outright iron fist of those like Pinochet. Dictators are not a simple definition... they come in many forms along a continuum...and we can differ as to the point where the appropriate noun changes from "clever politician" to "strong man" to "dictator". As to my "prejudice". I always thought prejudice was a blind adherence to one point of view based on personal attitudes, with resistance to any other point of view. I can read those accounts of folks who praise him...(see various links above) and I can also find accounts of those who can see beyond his 'oil charity'. If he had stayed healthy, I would not have been surprised to see him become another Castro: in power for many years, but with oil billions to soothe complaints. I have an opinion, after watching him for several years. Why should I not just characterize YOUR opinion as prejudice? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:43 PM OK. Sure is interesting that despite being asked several times for some actual evidence that the US murdered Chavez, those who want to consider this possibility have come up with precisely zilch. One might think they indeed have no such evidence. They don't even show any knowledge of Chavez' health prior to this month--despite being asked for that also. So, as I said, the assassination idea is nothing more than a rumor. But leftists seem to feel that unless you consider that every crackpot rumor might be true, you are not being fair. As I pointed out, rejection of rumor means that you can think--and are willing to do so. A rare quality in leftists, it seems. Please let us know when you have some actual evidence. It seems clear the idea is, bluntly, no more than yet another example of leftist paranoia. As I noted earlier, it's amazing, with so many self-inflicted nightmares, that leftists get any sleep at night. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:14 PM There is no need to produce evidence for something that you are not asserting. Keeping an open mind is not the same as making an accusation. It's no more rational to rule out the accusation made by the acting President of Venezuela than it would be to assume that it is justified. Inevitably we make estimates of what feels more likely to us - mine would be that Chavez died of natural causes - but these are just subjective guesses, and we shouldn't treat them as certainty. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:19 PM 1) Chavez died from complications cause by cancer. He's had it for a long time--anyway from before June, 2011. 2) I am still waiting for someone to give me the working definition of liberal (presumably a name interchangeable with leftist) that keeps getting strewn around for some reason or other. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:42 PM f liberal (presumably a name interchangeable with leftist) Not in most countries. With a big L it can mean just about anything, but generally a party on the centre or right. With a small l it would mean someone with moderate views, which can of course mean different things in different countries. This seems to be one of those "only in America" things. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:06 PM Thank you, McG of H. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Bonzo3legs Date: 07 Mar 13 - 04:32 PM Good riddance - rumour has it that he was shagging Alicia Castro, the former Argentine ambassador to Venezuela and current ambassador to the UK!! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:57 PM What, Bill D, do you know about Venezuelan elections that was overlooked by international observers, including Jimmy Carter, who regularly judged them open and fair? Or was "manipulated" just your own unprejudiced assumption? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Ed T Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:21 PM The president of Brazil, (2003 through 2010) on Chavez |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: bobad Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:44 PM NY Times Op-Ed piece by Rory Carroll on Chavez's legacy. PeterK, if you Google "Chavez rigged elections" the resulting links should keep you occupied for a couple of days but, of course, it's all propaganda. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Ed T Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:53 PM Hear it yourself, rather than others: Larry King interviews Chavez 2009 |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Bill D Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:37 PM Peter K... I know similar things to what bobad linked to.. (thanks, bobad) From that link:"The endless debate about whether Mr. Chávez was a dictator or democrat — he was in fact a hybrid, an elected autocrat.." Perhaps I should have chosen 'autocrat' rather than suggesting 'dictator'. Carter's decision that the elections were open & fair does not preclude them being manipulated to look that way. Carefully spreading money among the poor can get you elected, with no strife or complaints. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:45 PM "Carefully spreading money among the poor can get you elected, with no strife or complaints." Governments would do well to remember that. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: pdq Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:49 PM It sounds too slick to really be from Stalin, but somebody said: "It's not who votes that counts. It's who counts the votes." Chavez boys counted the votes. After the recall election of 2004 total was announced, it was said that "Jimmy Carter said nothing and left". |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: pdq Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:58 PM BTW, he was just like Yasser Arafat. Both wanted to be leaders and do good. Arafat did real good. $700 million in Swiss bank accounts. Hugo Chavez did even gooder. $2 billion in foreign banks. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Mar 13 - 08:36 PM , he was just like Yasser Arafat. Are you going back to those suggestions of foul play, pd? Why not say $10 billion while you're about it? Don't be so stingy. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:52 PM "keep an open mind" for the US assassination of Chavez. Whatever you say. So leftists really are incapable of distingishing between rumor and theory. That's interesting. Please do us a favor and don't try to write any books on history. It's hard enough to figure out what happened without absurd mixing of rumor and theory, let alone fact. And still we wait patiently for information from our brilliant friends left of center on Chavez' health in the past--which might possibly be germane to the topic. If they do not comply, I will provide information on Mr. Chavez' health history. What's interesting is that it seems they don't even really have a good grasp of the English language. "Rush to judgment" almost always has to do with rushing to find something negative without due consideration, especially assuming guilt. It does not have to do with assuming innocence. In fact I seem to recall that the presumption of innocence may possibly be asssociated with a legal code in the US, and, who knows, perhaps in the UK. At least a bit of evidence is required before losing the presumption of innocence. So, yet again, where is the evidence that the US murdered Chavez? Surely the intellectual giants who grace Mudcat can come up; with something. beyond dark mumblings, a skill which they certainly have mastered. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:55 PM "come up with something beyond" |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Ed T Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:59 PM When I look at the media reports on Chavez and the money it is said he amassed, the common source is the USA based Criminal Justice International Associates (CJIA). When I check out the site, it seems "sketchy" not specializing in this type of information, and seems like it may be a one man show, (Jerry Brewer, a former cop who heads up a risk assessment and global analysis firm). I could not even finfd the information referred to in the media sites on this companies site?. - not at alll the type of "reliable source' I would trust on on a matter like this one. Could we be dealing with disinformation, an old art? CRIMINAL JUSTICE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATES |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Bill D Date: 07 Mar 13 - 10:21 PM Yeah.. it does look like Jerry Brewer's main interest is hyping his own credentials, doesn't it? It doesn't say he's wrong, but it does behoove us to look for corroborating sources. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Mar 13 - 10:43 PM The presumption of innocence is not relevant. It is fundamental that it should operate in all trials, and it is desperately sad that has been inverted into a presumption of guilt in so many quasi-legal proceedings in recent years. But it is a principle that applies in relation to trials, it does not mean that investigations should not be possible unless there is clear evidence of guilt in advance. As I said, I think it is most likely that Chavez died of natural causes. But I do not think it is possible at this stage to be certain that the suspicions aired by people who know far more about the circumstances than any of us are wrong. A rush to judgement can just as easily involve prematurely rejecting suspicions as prematurely accepting them. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Mar 13 - 10:43 PM The presumption of innocence is not relevant. It is fundamental that it should operate in all trials, and it is desperately sad that has been inverted into a presumption of guilt in so many quasi-legal proceedings in recent years. But it is a principle that applies in relation to trials, it does not mean that investigations should not be possible unless there is clear evidence of guilt in advance. As I said, I think it is most likely that Chavez died of natural causes. But I do not think it is possible at this stage to be certain that the suspicions aired by people who know far more about the circumstances than any of us are wrong. A rush to judgement can just as easily involve prematurely rejecting suspicions as prematurely accepting them. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: GUEST,999 Date: 07 Mar 13 - 10:58 PM "Surely the intellectual giants who grace Mudcat can come up; with something. beyond dark mumblings, a skill which they certainly have mastered." If you have such disdain for people here, why do you post? |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Mar 13 - 01:28 AM 999: "2) I am still waiting for someone to give me the working definition of liberal (presumably a name interchangeable with leftist) that keeps getting strewn around for some reason or other." I usually call them "so-called liberals", because 'liberal' is the furthest thing from them. I find the modern day 'so-called liberals' some of the most close minded, pedantic whiners, hating, name calling spoiled little immature brats, living in a delusion of utopia around the corner, that the world has seen in centuries..if ever!!!! It's gotten so bad, that Conservatives look more liberal!!!!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Mar 13 - 01:32 AM Oh yeah..I almost forgot..."Obit: Chavez Dead" By next week, Americans will be more preoccupied with Kim Kardasian's new Botox lips, and Taylor Swift's new song about her last boyfriend! GfS |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Bonzo3legs Date: 08 Mar 13 - 01:40 PM Like Cristina Kirshner in Argentina, Chavez almost certainly bribed the less well of to vote for him!! |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: pdq Date: 08 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM Before the 2004 recall election, polls showed he would lose by over 70%. He won with about 58%. He could have made that 99+% like good ol' Saddam Husein did, but he knew that he had to make it seem reasonable. People were watching, you see. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Ed T Date: 08 Mar 13 - 04:45 PM Venezuela, as with many South American countries, has always ranked high on the corruption scale, hardly something to blame on Chavez. However, while Chavez made progress on increasing the lot of the poor, corruption in government and business remains at a crisis level. Anyone travelling or doing business in that nation has always to build lots of "bribe money" into costs to keep things moving smoothly. It is likely a hard place for residents to get by, unless you are rich or connected. It is nice to see the good outlook in Chili and Uraguay. How does your country rate? Corruption map |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Elmore Date: 08 Mar 13 - 05:23 PM BREAKING NEWS> chavez still dead. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Mar 13 - 08:26 PM Properly speaking the opposite of liberal isn't conservative, it's illiberal. It's perfectly possible for someone to be a liberal conservative, just as its possible for people anywhere along the left right spectrum to be illiberal. No one in most countries would use a term like small l liberal as a hostile label. In fact even people whose beliefs and practices are extremely illiberal will be likely to adopt the label. And in it's way that is not a bad thing, since it puts at least some limit on nakedly illiberal ideology. The way it is used in the USA is worrying. It must surely tend to take that limit away, and make it harder for liberal conservatives to speak out. It's a distortion of language which feeds into a distortion of politics. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Mar 13 - 09:55 PM This letter from today's guardian is interesting as provides a few facts about Venezuela's economic situation that put into question some of the assertions being peddled about it being in a desperate state: • In September 2012, the IMF estimated Venezuela's fiscal deficit at 7.4% of GDP and its interest payments at 3% of export earnings. Venezuela's "swollen" public sector is actually around 18.4% of the workforce, lower than in most European countries; and Venezuela ended 2012 with GDP growth of 5.5% and an inflation rate of 19.9%, which although high, is a significant reduction from 27.2% in 2010, not to mention its peak of 103.2% in 1996, prior to Chávez's first presidency. Indeed as Mark Weisbrot reported in this newspaper (Report, 4 March): "As for Venezuela's public debt … a better measure is the burden of the foreign part of this debt, which in 2012 was about 1% of GDP, or 4.1% of Venezuela's export earnings." From the perspective of crisis-ridden Britain, where austerity is clearly not working, Venezuela's economy is robust in comparison. Chávez leaves a Venezuela in control of its sovereign oil wealth, committed and determined to build a society geared to meeting people's needs, rather than lining the pockets of the few. Sam McGill Editor, vivavenezuela.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: GUEST,999 Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM "The way it [the term, liberal] is used in the USA is worrying. It must surely tend to take that limit away, and make it harder for liberal conservatives to speak out. It's a distortion of language which feeds into a distortion of politics." You have put into words what I have been unable to. Many thanks, McG of H. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Mar 13 - 07:04 PM Here's an article in today's Toronto Star about the passing of Mr Chavez: By:Tony BurmanSpecial to the Star, Published on Sat Mar 09 2013 Millions of euphoric Venezuelans poured onto the streets, happily celebrating the end of a regime that grabbed much of the nation's oil wealth for itself, pillaged the treasury and doomed most of the population to extreme poverty. But that wasn't this week in Caracas, of course, after the death of Hugo Chavez. That was in December 1998, in towns and cities throughout Venezuela, when Chavez was first elected president. We need to remember the past to better assess the future, and we can be certain that most Latin Americans do. The legacy of Latin America's most dominant leader since Fidel Castro will undoubtedly reverberate beyond the borders of Venezuela. His death comes at a time when Cuba's post-Castro era is finally in sight and when several progressive South American governments — fiercely independent of overbearing American influence — are gaining in popularity. In the tortured history of modern Latin America, where elites have freely cashed in their national sovereignty for personal enrichment, we may be witnessing a historic new chapter and, perhaps, a new start with its meddlesome American neighbours. To many outside of Venezuela, largely fuelled by a hostile American media, Hugo Chavez was a clown and a buffoon. To others, he was deservedly criticized for tolerating mismanagement and corruption, and for trying to intimidate his political opponents. By any measure, his years in power were flawed and chaotic. But that is not the complete story, and most Venezuelans do not forget that. When Chavez was elected in 1998, his government replaced decades of corrupt and greedy rule by political and business elites — openly supported by the United States — who squandered the nation's wealth. During his years as president, millions of Venezuelans received health care for the first time. Extreme poverty was reduced by 70 per cent and access to public education increased dramatically. Illiteracy has virtually been eradicated. Above all, the vast Venezuelan majority, marginalized and ignored by governments in past decades, assumed a dignity and pride of place that had been unheard of in the modern Latin American political culture. Since September 2001, the United States has virtually ignored the region, and the Latin American response has been eye-opening. The populist approach by Chavez, which challenged conventional political and economic thinking, has been contagious. This is the one region that did not respond to the 2008 global recession with across-the-board austerity. Instead, several governments expanded public services, reduced poverty and inequality, and nationalized key industries. The result has been strong economies and a string of popular governments that have actually been reelected. Apart from Chavez, who won last October's presidential election in Venezuela with an 11 per cent margin, the latest example of this is Rafael Correa, reelected last month as Ecuador's president with 57 per cent of the vote. Last year, Latin America's first indigenous president, Evo Morales, was elected in Bolivia and, in 2009, Dilma Rousseff was voted in as president of Brazil. The distinction of Latin America in today's global political context is that it is far more independent of the United States than other regions, such as Europe or — dare I say — Canada. And that is a staggering irony given its history in the past century of being a virtual vassal, or doormat, of the U.S. I made my first visit to South America in the mid-1970s, travelling by bus for more than a year from one country to another. Virtually all of them were military governments, supported by the United States, and most were very dismissive of any semblance of human rights. The most notorious example during that period was Chile, led then by Gen. Augusto Pinochet. I recall so many people remarking to me that the Canadian government, above all, was promoting a foreign policy that was independent of the United States. As we try to assess the legacy of Chavez, it is striking to realize that, since that period, Latin America and Canada seem to have switched places. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Mar 13 - 09:33 PM Thanks appreciated, and returned, 999. I think if we heard about a country where a word closely allied to "liberal", "moderate", was used as a term of abuse in the same way, I think we would take this as a clear indication there was something seriously amiss in that country's political and social life. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: Bill D Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:08 PM One of the problems with liberal & conservative in the US is that the system doesn't easily allow for other terms and designations... as if everyone must cram into one or the other. We really need a multi-party setup, so Tea Partiers can have their own splinter group and let Republicans...well... be something else. But the electoral college design and various primary routines... plus the media... are constructed so as to keep the status quo. I know...there are 'other' parties, but all one can do is ruin an election for one of the big two. |
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración From: akenaton Date: 10 Mar 13 - 06:43 AM "The System" rules. You can call yourselves anything you like, just don't dare question the system. If a real socialist movement were to emerge in the US or UK all your prized human rights would vanish overnight. The beast would be exposed for what it is! End of story. |
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