BS: electing a new labour leader

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 07:42 PM

I wouldn't call MGM Lion a particularly ridiculous pseudonym, but it is, for all that, a pseudonym.
.......
I wish people would stop talking about the Tory victory as if it had been an overwhelming landslide. They scraped a narrow majority by picking up seats made available by a LibDem collapse, which had been brought about by entangling them in a coalition.

The only part of the UK where there was a landslide was Scotland, where a party significantly to the left of the current Labour Party took nearly every seat.

In England, though Labour did badly, their actual vote rose rather more than the Tory vote did.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Musket Musket
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 03:12 AM

🎶Little Sir Echo how do you do? 🎶

Annoying, isn't it Kevin. We heard you the first time.

As Bridge missed his chance at Michael, I'll say it for him. "It's Mr Bridgibumz to you."

I have to admit, I do try to wind Michael up myself at times. The alternative is to take him seriously and that would never do. When he was on one of his xenophobic rants a while ago, I said "but the nice man down the road in the shop is a Muslim too." To which Michael pointed out that he might be nice but he might also have a nephew who isn't.

So you see, you either see Michael as no different to many Germans in the '20s and '30s or you dismiss him with a smile and put it down to age and senility.

Ready?


Nurse! He's out of bed again!

(Mind you, in one of his earlier posts here he does make a valid point that the country has moved on from visions such as Corbyn's. But then went on to ruin it with the rest of his diatribe.)

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 03:26 AM

Dear me, all this agonising about poor ickle old me! Rather flattering, really. Thank you Mr Popgun, & all. I expect somebody out there even luvs old Mr Bridgititz, at that.

Hey-ho. Back·2·bed. Can't stay up too long at my gr8 age, yerno!

〠〠〠〠〠

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 03:32 AM

Not that I have the slightest idea what you mean about the Germans in the 20s & 30s, but don't trouble to explain. I really don't give a flying one what a confused harmless little pestiferous heap of wotsit like you might think about anything...

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 03:35 AM

& now, must stop, or poor old McG might suffer distress, poor little fellow

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 03:44 AM

What does the above abusive post add to the discussion?

We all make double posts, anyone who is simply here to make obscure posts, wind people up and indulge in ageist insults is of little value.   It is true that the older we get, the less sure we are in pressing the correct keys or navigating the board. That does not mean that there is anything deficient in our reasoning faculties.
Some here seem to lack any of those?

Mr McGrath, I'm sure the Labour Party would be more electable with one of the "Blairites" as leader, but would another four years of new labour really move society forward? I think socialists must resign themselves to the long haul, starting with an attempt to explain and implement socialist values in society.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 03:45 AM

The press of course paint a picture of a crushing defeat for Labour, and the result was disappointing, that true. But it was closer than the right-wing cheerleaders would have you think. The tories were elected to government by 24% of the electorate. The rest either voted Labour, voted for another broadly left party, voted for UKIP for reasons best known to themselves, or didn't vote at all. It is this 76% that the new Labour leader must target, making it clear that the consequences of a tory government are overwhelmingly negative for them. And actually for about 23% of the 24% who did vote for the tories, but thats incidental, the real target must be protest voters and non-voters. To me, it seems that only Corbyn addresses these people.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 04:09 AM

Getting back to Mrs Thatcher for a moment, people here talk about the destruction of British manufacturing, as if this was a policy brought in to break the "working class", a diabolical right wing conspiracy.

We all know that our manufacturing industries and production of useable resources had become uncompetitive under globalism, they had to be shut down or nationalised and no government of right or left would have had the balls to undertake that task, with its enormous effects on society. It would have meant the ditching of the capitalist system and lower living standards for a spoiled middle class. The rich would be screaming and their middle class supporters would have sabotaged any attempt at change.

Mrs Thatcher was a supreme capitalist politician, her "right to buy scheme" was a political masterstroke.....there are still people who make their living from it, while poor people remain homeless.
She bought another forty years for the system, are we going to allow the "Blairites" to buy another forty?

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:17 AM

some members of my family voted for lib dem and were pissed off to find they had voted tory in the election before last. n fact the liberals used to be quite strong in south west, but they've lost out big time.

seems like the tories are going to be in power for evermore.

Blair should have reformed the electoral system to avoid the Thatcher syndrome. Thatcher ruled and served her little cabal of tame constituencies and sent the rest of the country to hell.

Cameron has an even smaller moral right to be screwing up the country.

the fault lies with Blair. he could have changed things - he didn't. hard to believe that the answer lies with another Blairite government.
a lib dem/ labour compact with the primary concern of electoral reform is the only real hope to deliver us from these extremist governments.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:29 AM

Al...if the Labour Party split, surely PR cant be far off?

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:36 AM

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: MGM·Lion - PM
Date: 18 Aug 15 - 03:56 AM

I don't "presume to speak for the British people", Jim. It is the bits of paper they put in the ballot box that do that. Can you really not get into your head that it is their votes that demonstrate beyond argument that it is they, not just me, who don't want the doctrinaire bullying of all you lefty lot?

And it's a bit behind the fair to go on parroting "ThatcherThatcherThatcher" as if that were any sort of useful contribution to any sort of debate at this time of day. In case you hadn't noticed, she is as dead as Queen Anne.

Regards as ever

≈M≈
it is not so simple Mike, it is not just their votes but it is also the system of voting,plus rearrangements of election districts [gerrymandering] that have contributed to election results.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:57 AM

I know all that, Dick: but my point remains that only 4 years ago a referendum was held in which the entire electorate was given the chance to express support for changing this present system; but overwhelmingly voted to keep it.

So what do you suggest should be done?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:59 AM

More of the British people didn't put any bits of paper in ballot boxes than voted for any of the parties. Except in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:05 AM

M....I don't remember ever being given the chance to change the system through the ballot box?

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:10 AM

Alternative vote referendum

Unfortunately it was not a good choice. Sort of 'What would you like, a slap round the head or a kick up the arse?'

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:14 AM

plus rearrangements of election districts [gerrymandering] that have contributed to election results.

Not happened yet.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:21 AM

Oh sorry, I thought M meant the socio/economic system.

If socialism is ever to become accepted by the UK electorate, it will have to be via PR.......

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 07:46 AM

I'm not sure I want a socialist government. However I'm fed up withEngland being run for bankers, for monetarism, the ultra rich, for the undiscerning and uncaring.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 07:50 AM

I agree Al, but socialism is the only real alternative.
It wont be very pleasant, but it may just prevent the total destruction of society.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 07:53 AM

I don't think much of the one [intellect] belonging to the self-opinionated Mr R Bridge

Irony, or what?

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 08:44 AM

Not very pleasant? That might depend on what matters to you. I'd incline to agree with what William Morris wrote after visiting a poor but equal society in Iceland: "the most grinding poverty is a trifling evil compared with the inequality of classes.

Inequality is far too high a price to pay for affluence, even if that actually was on offer. And in fact the evidence is that it isn,t, in the kong run.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 08:53 AM

"[gerrymandering]"
On a large scale, the six Counties of Northern Ireland were deliberately chosen to provide a Protestant majority - three counties of Ulster were rejected because that would have put the balance in facour of the Catholics - classical gerrymandering.
On a smaller scale, Dame Shirley Porter in Westminster, deliberately moved council tenants out of their homes into a neighboring borough in order to create a Conservative majority.
This was carried out under the pretext of repairing the property, which was in fact gentrified and put on the market.
All this was compounded by the fact that the property the original tenants were moved into was riddled with asbestos, putting the health and even the lives of the occupants at risk - gerrymandering at the most extreme.
Dame Shirl later did a runner and settled Israel, owing Britain £30m
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 09:00 AM

Thatcher contributed to the closure of pits but Scargill by his refusal to hold a ballot made sure there was no future for miners in this country. Miners lions led by a Donkey.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 09:01 AM

I meant the journey would not be pleasant, not the end product....if there ever is one......perhaps change like the universe "goes on for ever"?

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 09:36 AM

"Thatcher contributed to the closure of pits "
Thatcher CLOSED the pits with the help of Ian McGregor -
Scargill had no alternative but to oppose a deliberate policy which included (to start with), the proposal of 64,000 (from 202,000 to 138,000) redundancies - that was what he his job.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 09:39 AM

On a large scale, the six Counties of Northern Ireland were deliberately chosen to provide a Protestant majority - three counties of Ulster were rejected because that would have put the balance in facour of the Catholics - classical gerrymandering.

Not at all.
The boundaries were deliberately chosen to include as many unionists as possible within the union, and to allow as many nationalists as possible to be outside the union.
It was an attempt to please most of the people most of the time, which is all you can hope to do in a plural society.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 09:56 AM

I like the sound of a Corbyn-Creasy team. If nothing else it alliterates and sounds like a 1950's film star...

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:09 AM

Or a 1970s porn star... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:10 AM

I wouldn't know BWM... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:15 AM

But he did not call a ballot. Read what Neil Kinnok has to say about the conflict and start blaming the wrong bogey man

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:24 AM

Stop blaming the wrong bogey man

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 10:32 AM

Ahh, the horns of the dilemma. I'm definitely voting for Corbyn as party leader, with Andy Burnham as my probable second choice.

Regarding the choice of deputy, I first thought of Tom Watson - campaigner on several important issues such as child abuse and phone hacking. But then he voted in favour of the Iraq war, and has subsequently voted against holding an inquiry into the same. Just in case Watson has forgotten, the Iraq war is precisely the reason why so many Labour stalwarts left, and was a major contributory factor as to why the party is in the state it's currently in.

But having read the campaign literature of the others, and watched them in action, I can't see how one could possibly slide a fag paper between Eagle, Bradshaw, Creasby and Flint.

To put that another way. Does anyone know of a single left wing credential among any of them?

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 11:08 AM

"The boundaries were deliberately chosen to include as many unionists as possible within the union,"
Three counties were originally proposed, then hastily dropped when it was calculated that they would provide a Catholic majority - it was a deliberate and stated policy to create a Protestant state.
There was no question of there ever being anything but a Catholic majority in the rest of Ireland.
The creation of a sectarian state immediately instigated anti Catholic feeling which led to regular violence, and erupted into open warfare in the seventies.
The violence has remained a reality in the State right up to fairly recently.
One of the unwritten laws of nationality is that if you draw a line across any country, you sign up for generations of violence until that line disappears - that will remain the case in the six Northern counties.
"Neil Kinnok"
about as reliable guide as Tory Blur
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 12:38 PM

I'll be very happy if whoever becomes Leader actually OPPOSES the pile of Old Etonian Shite currently running the country for their own selfish ends.

Time Her Majesty's Opposition began to do what it says on the tin.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 02:14 PM

Just put my vote in. Went for Angela Eagle, with Stella Creasy followed by Tom Watson and Ben Bradshaw,
.
There should be a woman to go with Jeremy as Leader. But I draw the line at Caroline Flint.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 02:21 PM

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 02:23 PM

if you draw a line across any country, you sign up for generations of violence until that line disappears

India?
In this case, the unionist population of Ulster made it quite clear that they would go to war if the line was NOT drawn.

Three counties were originally proposed, then hastily dropped when it was calculated that they would provide a Catholic majority - it was a deliberate and stated policy to create a Protestant state.

The policy was to place as many people as possible on the side they would choose.
What is your objection?

The creation of a sectarian state
The creation of two sectarian states, if that is defined as a state with a religious majority.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 02:27 PM

Fortunately I no longer have to vote labour, but if I did it would certainly be Jeremy.....think I would have to "draw the line" after that.......perhaps Angela.

Not that it matters much, the big hope is for a split and send the Blairites packing.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 02:40 PM

"The policy was to place as many people as possible on the side they would choose."
Nonsense
People were not expected to move anywhere - they were not chess pieces.
The plan was to divide the country as it stood into a Catholic and Protestant state
Do you honestly think a treaty aimed at expecting people to up-sticks and shift would ever have been contemplated - it took
enough, bullying, blackmail and threats of war to get it signed as it stood?
"The creation of two sectarian states"
No - one sectarian state - Catholicism was the overwhelmingly dominant religion in Ireland and once the treaty was signed, there was no inter,religious conflict in the 26 states - no sectarianism.
"India?"
India has been involved in four wars since the creation of Pakistan.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 02:43 PM

Jim,

I think you are being unreasonable here, under your definition Saudi Arabia is not a sectarian state.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 03:07 PM

"Saudi Arabia is not a sectarian state."
Didn't say it wasn't Dave - lots of countries are or aspire to be mono-religious- sectarian.
My point refers to countries which have been forcibly partitioned.
Ireland was forcibly divided in order to create a Protestant State which remained part of the United Kingdom - this was Britain's response was to demands for complete independence (as was happening throughout the Empire) - partition.
The signing of the treaty led to a bloody civil war which lasted a year - inter-community violence, based on the rights given to the dominant religion, has been a fact of life ever since.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 04:01 PM

People were not expected to move anywhere

Correct.
The borders were chosen so as few people as possible would be on the wrong side.

The unionists demanded to remain in the union, were well armed, and were determined to go to war if not given self determination.
They were militarily stronger than the South, and British officers threatened to resign rather than fight them.
What would you have done Jim?

The violence in Ireland started long before the partition and continued long after it.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:13 PM

Which has what to do with electing a new labour leader exactly? Or are we just back to the Keith and Jim show?

What have you done with the baby?
I have thrown him out of the window!
I said pull the rope!
That's the way to do it!

Well, it is folk entertainment I suppose :-)

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:34 PM

🎼 🎶 "When will they ever learn, when will they e-e-ever learn? 🎶

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:50 PM

On the topic of electing a new leader for labour. I got an email at 6:30 this evening saying there was a Corbyn rally in my town. It is in a hall that can seat 700. Within four hours 872 people have responded, and I imagine some will have several people, as you could ask for multiple places on your response. Maybe 872 is the total number of places assigned, I'm not sure.

Either way the number of people saying they will attending is far in excess of the hall a few hours after it was announced. Maybe it is all froth, we will see. But I think the Conservatives will be worried about this, as well as the upper echelons of Labour. Neither is likely to know how to deal with it, but at least the Conservatives can hope the enthusiasm will burn itself out before the next election - and they'd probably be right.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:55 PM

Sorry, de-cookied above!

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 05:55 PM

Sorry, de-cookied above!

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:05 PM

I think labour have a death wish, they are riven with disagreements.
Mr Corbyn, the probable choice for UK leader is opposed to nuclear weapons and the renewal of Trident, while the newly elected leader of Scottish labour, Miss Dugdale proposes a "multilateral approach", code for the retention of WMD's on Scottish soil.
Never mind, she has appointed an equalities spokesperson, that should keep the Blairites happy.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:31 PM

Actually Miss Dugdale has hedged her bets on that one, saying she thought the option of dispensing with Trident should be part of the discussion.

it's pretty clear that if Labour in Scotland is serious about getting back some influence up there, they,ll have to recognise that the issue of Trident was a massive vote loser for them.

The best hope of that happening, is for Courbyn as Labour leader rattherthan any of the other three - and that might also be the best way to get the SNP to hang fire on deciding to go for independance soon, because the prospect of a socialist Westminster government would be likelt to have an impact on voting in a new referendum.

And of course if the SNP felt Labour under Corbyn would not be likely to win, that would also be an excellent reason for delaying, since the prospectof a permanent Yory government wpuld pretty certainly mean a landslide majority for a brekaway.

Subject: RE: BS: electing a new labour leader
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 15 - 06:57 PM

I really think Scottish independence is a "done deal" Mr McGrath and certainly failing to oppose trident outright will make independence more likely.
It doesn't look like the Scottish branch office has learned anything from its recent humiliating defeat, but I can muster no sympathy for them, they have failed the Scottish people, who remained loyal to a bunch of corrupt toadies for far too long.
I stopped voting Labour and joined the SNP BB(Before Blair) and have never regretted it. I have watched them ditch every principle the founders fought for to achieve government..... and what did they give us? War, Privatisation and huge wealth differentials.

Good luck to Jeremy, but can he beat the media and straighten a twisted society?... I doubt it, but at least it will be a start.
I just hope those who wallowed in the Blair years are ashamed of themselves.