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Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Homeless Date: 06 Mar 00 - 11:50 AM Bert - I could say the same as you, but with "play" and "sing" switch. Using only my voice, I can't carry a tune. But I'll pick up an instrument for the first time and pick out simple tunes. When I first started messing with the banjo, I'd do an alternating thumb roll on a C-G-D-G chord progression for literally hours (2-3 at a time) and enjoy the hell out of it. I wasn't practicing - I was having fun. One evening after work one of my co-workers picked up a guitar and started noodling counter rhythms over what I was doing. After about 20 minutes we finally quit, and much to my surprise our corporate CEO had been listening, and applauded! Unfortunately, that's the only time I've ever gotten to play with anyone else. All of my music is solo, with myself as the audience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Mark Clark Date: 06 Mar 00 - 02:37 PM Most of the people I've played music with over the years make a distinction similir to the one Homeless used to begin this thread. The distinction they make isn't one of "heart" or dedication or remuneration and I'm not sure how to define the difference except to relate some of what they told me. If a person can play "Cripple Creek," for example, but not "Old Joe Clark" then they haven't learned to play their instruments, they've only learned to play certain tunes on them. "Players" can jump into a session and immediately play along and contribute on tunes they've never heard. They can "sing" using their instruments just as a vocalist can with his or her voice. This ability is, I think, independent of issues like originality, taste, soul and technical virtuosity. The great wonder and joy of music---and folk music especially---is that most people can learn to play some tunes on some instruments, even if they don't become "players." I don't know whether the distinction determines whether or not a person is a musician but there is definately a difference. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Peter T. Date: 06 Mar 00 - 02:56 PM Nice to hear about Ferrara, Bill. I was wondering how she was doing (she seems to have wisely cut back on her time here, and is singing instead!!!!!!). Tell her hi. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Froodo Date: 06 Mar 00 - 03:18 PM Someone that creates and plays music is a musician. They may or may not be a professional musician, they may or may not be a good musician, they may or may not be a dedicated musician, but if they make music they're a musician.
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: wysiwyg Date: 06 Mar 00 - 04:19 PM Tried this concept out today. Sometimes I actually think I'm a musician, sometimes I'm playing music/playing with instruments. What I came up with, after a couple of hours with the keyboad, was that sometimes I am playing for fun, and sometimes I'm playing for keeps. In one case, the playfulnes is disposable, just for that moment. In the other, if it were recorded, I'd save the tape and maybe distribute it. Both kinds of playing can be quite serious as well as intensely fun, but one is more ruthlessly focused-- a "keeper." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: MK Date: 06 Mar 00 - 04:44 PM Frodo, you sure you don't work for the American Federation of Musicians? They have the same criterion as you, as far as accepting new members and taking their dues money. *BG* (kidding) Just because someone might be a ''union'' musician does not mean they're any good at what they do. I really think it comes down to standards. To include as many people as possible under the category of musician implies a very loose standard of what constitutes a real musician --but alienates far fewer people. Then again who sets and defines the standards? Peers? Our friends? Our relatives? Ourselves? It's kind of a circular argument.
As an analogy, if I write:
Roses are red ..does this make me a poet? In the loosest standard imaginable, yeah okay...but not really. Do you know what I mean? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: The Shambles Date: 06 Mar 00 - 05:45 PM I know exactly what you mean, I just don't agree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: John in Brisbane Date: 07 Mar 00 - 12:14 AM I have a couple of thoughts to share - just thoughts. A musician is someone who applies his/her craft so that OTHERS can share the pleasure. The commitment here is not in practice, technical wizardty or internal drive but simply the willingness to allow othres to share your 'performance'. My definition of performance is based upon whether or not you feel emotionally exposed - if you feel exposed it's a performance. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 Mar 00 - 10:09 AM J-in-B: I like the distinction you make. I guess that makes me a musician, because I've always had the desire to be a performer. I like to play and sing for myself and by myself, but it's always with the idea that this is preparation for the real thing, entertaining others. I never feel so alive as when playing and singing for others. In other words, I'm a ham! Dave Oesterreich
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Biskit Date: 07 Mar 00 - 10:35 AM Well Dave a ham by any other name..... Yeah I'll play and sing `till after the last ones gone home, then I'll do a few more just in case we have any stragglers, I love making music and I'll love it `till the day I die. Mbo, my brother you are one,..or maybe we're both just weird,but I prefer to think of us as musicians, who are by definition,...weird. oh and that hair raising up thingy,well thats what made me sure about you. -Biskit- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Rick Fielding Date: 07 Mar 00 - 10:41 AM OK, admittedly this is loose, and perhaps not well thought out, but it seems to me that: Country music (and musicians) are evaluated primarily by their listening audience. Classical music, by several generations of listeners, critics, and on the basis of early compositions by the artist. Jazz, by other players and print critics. Rock, by a young and generally more emotional audience. Folk, often by friends, other folkies, family, and in general by people who value "inclusiveness". I think "we" get off pretty easily as far as criticism goes. A nervous, shy and possibly socially inept person can get on an open stage, and if they can make it through a piece without self-destructing, will often get huge positive strokes ("just for the effort"). I can think of no other music form where this would be the "rule" rather than the rarest exception. Rick
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Mark Clark Date: 07 Mar 00 - 11:47 AM Rick, I think you've really put your finger on it. The whole idea of folk music is that it is homemade and not intended to meet the criteria we place on other genres. From my point of view, that accounts for much of its appeal. A jazz musician is someone who's abilities and sensibilities meet the demands of jazz. A folk musician, by the same token, is someone who's abilities and sensibilities meet the demands of folk music. The expecations we have of each are drastically different. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Froodo Date: 07 Mar 00 - 12:43 PM What's the difference between a gardener and one who plants gardens? The way I see it is that a musician is one who plays music. One who plays a musical instrument is an "ist"...if one plays guitar one is a guitarist, same for vocalists, bassists, so on and so forth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Homeless Date: 07 Mar 00 - 01:18 PM Froodo - Can you give me the definition of "play" and "music" then? Hand me a guitar and I can pick out a simple melody - one note at a time. I also know half a dozen simple chords and go thru the progressions of a few simple songs (Heart of Gold, Greensleeves) almost up to speed. Throw a new chord progression at me that I haven't tried yet and I'd have to practice it for a while before I could do it. Does any of this qualify as "playing" or "music"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 07 Mar 00 - 01:55 PM are we just happy, or are we the best?........ do we perform well under the test?........ do we enjoy a tune, or do it in jest?........ or by the sweet muses are we now blessed?. The showman will show off a glittering style........ and sexier singers we love them to smile........... but musicians may be the ones who beguile........ with tune, vioce and instrument, meaning...the mile. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Froodo Date: 07 Mar 00 - 02:17 PM Homeless, I'd say you are playing music. Perhaps slowly and unskillfully, but you are creating music...hence a musician at that time...but maybe not by trade. Are you suggesting that the term musician should be defined based on skill level? If so, where is the line drawn. When is one skillful enough? What criteria is being used to separate unskilled "players" and qulaified "musicians?" Does on acheive the musician level by incorporating diminished 7th cords? At the very basic level, I have given my definition of what musician means. Perhaps at this time I should elaborate a bit more to include the following: Musicians are people that are essentially addicted to creating and playing music. Music is a top priority. Musicians without music can't survive. Whereas, hockey players without music (given that they're not musicians) can survive. I think that this addition to my original definition includes the dedication needed and the assumption that the person at hand can actually play their instrument (as well as own it) and has and continues to invest the time and creativity needed to reach a level of satisfaction.
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Homeless Date: 07 Mar 00 - 02:50 PM Having read over this thread the past few days (and really enjoyed seeing all the different viewpoints) I can see I made a major mistake. I used a couple of terms where I should have used definitions. My problem was that I was trying to figure out the definition. So. If you look at my post of 04-Mar-00 - 07:40 PM, ignore all the references to "musician" and substitute "person" and see where I give examples of what I am trying to define, maybe someone can give me a definition to fit the examples, or even (gasp) a term? Takers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Peter T. Date: 07 Mar 00 - 03:04 PM I think Froodo is right: everyone I have ever known who was a real X had to do it or die. Death may take a long time, however, When they weren't doing X, it was like they were slowly asphyxiating in a room where everyone else was happily breathing; or they were disoriented, like someone searching for the North Pole who had mistakenly turned left in Florida. This often makes them disconcerting company....yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 07 Mar 00 - 09:50 PM There is a tendency to think of music as either a rarifed occupation given to certain so-called talented people or as a commodity. This gives rise to questions such as these. Then there is the problem that some consider what they like as music and what they don't like as noise. For example, is Barry Manilow a musician? I think he is but that he wouldn't pass muster amoung many folkies I don't think. Then, is Dock Boggs a musician? I think so but so many of my fellow musical friends would take exception to that. Then there is the whole thing about being a "trained" musician. Does knowing how to write five-part convertable counterpoint make one a musician? Probably. I think that the key to being a musician is probably communication although here it gets sticky, too. What communicates to one person may not be to another. One of the interesting aspects of people who I would consider to be musical or musicians is their ability to appreciate all forms of music to some extent. They have the ability to find the music in what others may characterize as noise. I think you can appreciate music without even liking it that much. For example, I admire Jimmy Page and Arnold Schoenberg for their musical ability but I don't really care for their music. Nor do I like Wagner all that much but I'm not going to say that he was not a great musician. As Twain said, his music is better than it sounds. The love of music to me is characterized by a kind of open-ness and appreciation for all kinds of music. I think of Charlie Parker's statement, "Let's don't call it jazz, let's call it music." Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: The Shambles Date: 08 Mar 00 - 02:59 AM Gosh, that Shania hasn't been around very long and she is being quoted here, already!
Thank you Frank, good common sense as usual. "The love of music" is the key, I think. I see so many people trying so hard to be 'musicians' rather than desperate to make music.
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Ferrara Date: 08 Mar 00 - 09:31 AM This is a nice thread. Bill mentioned it, so thought I'd check it out. Everyone's taking a nece relaxed approach. Lots of room to disagree. The trouble is that there's no vocabulary for what Homeless was trying to describe. The word "musician" depends on the context. The fellow who comes to a song circle, picks a song out of RUS, stumbles over the words and fails even to approximate the tune, is being a musician for those few minutes, but probably will never be a Musician. I've always loved to draw and paint, but until recently wouldn't have called myself an artist. But I can stop drawing and painting. I did, for years, while my kid was small. *But I can't stop singing.* There are long periods when I don't play an instrument, but none, I think, when I don't sing. After my heart transplant, they wanted me to blow hard for 30 minutes a day into an ugly plastic tube to get my lungs working again. I said the hell with that, I'll sing. So in this tiny thready voice, I sang the most challenging songs I could manage. I met their "target lung power value" or whatever in two or three days. When I was a kid, people looked at me funny sometimes when they noticed I was singing as I walked to school. In Italy, it was marvelous -- I frequently passed people singing on the street, or heard beautiful singing as I passed by an open window. Are these people musicians? Just depends on the context, I guess. Boy, I do blather on when I finally get on-line, huh? But want to mention some things about practice and musicianship. Osmium mentioned timing and phrasing. I never understood them until I took a workshop with Jerry Epstein. Now I believe that for me, they make the difference between just singing, and really getting into the song. I've always like to practice, even when I didn't have anyone to sing or play for. I'd take a song and do it over and over, enjoying the development of an accompaniment that pleased me, and enjoying the increase in vocal mastery. Now, I try phrases over and over, listening to the effect of different phrasing. In one sense, yes, I think of this as developing my "musicianship." It doesn't make the songs mechanical at all; quite the opposite. When I perform, the song just sings itself. But the total effect of all those other times when I *did* think about what I was doing, is to improve the musicianship tremendously. By the way, stage fright usually gets me when I try to play an instrument in public. My fingers shake! -- But I keep doing it, stubbornly, and someday it's going to sound as nice as it does when I'm alone in my living room. Time to shut up for a while. See ya, - Rita Ferrara |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: GUEST,Botticelli's Niece Date: 08 Mar 00 - 09:25 PM A musician is someone who is always learning, developing, and perfecting their craft. A musician plays music because they HAVE to. Because their life wouldn't be whole without it. They are musicians because they were chosen, not because they chose to BE a musician. I teach music. It's the only thing I ever wanted to do. It's my job yet I have never worked a day in my life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: sophocleese Date: 08 Mar 00 - 10:52 PM I think that I make distinctions between performers, musicians and music lovers. Performers love to perform, they want to be in front of people. Musicians love music but aren't necessarily driven to perform it widely, though they do like to play with other musicians. Music lovers love music in many or all of its forms but may or may not be good at reproducing it. None of these categories is exclusive and most people are blends of all three. Working with these definitions I would say that a musician is someone with technical expertise and knowledge and an inner drive to always be making and creating music. Somebody who plays tunes on the instrument is probably more of a performer or music lover than a musician. At the end of the day whatever your driving force is you will usually end up being a better at making music for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Ferrara Date: 09 Mar 00 - 08:16 AM Sophocleese, I loved your suggestion re performers, musicians and music lovers. Well said. For some reason, this thread kept coming back into my mind all day yesterday. I kept looking for words for, how do you describe the rare people who are all three? The ones who have an affinity for music that goes beyond even talent? Maybe if I describe Lisa Null, who is Charlie Baum's S.O.... First time I met Lisa, I think was an Open Sing, but lots of people knew her so it turned into a singing party and went on far into the night. I remember thinking, "This lady has the kind of voice I would have chosen for myself if anybody had given me a choice." -- She just had this warm, rich full voice, and she was so expressive and in tune with every song, and her guitar playing supported her singing as if they were made to go with each other. She writes songs, too, such as "I'm Going Back to Georgia," which was requested once in a Mudcat thread. And she taught American trad music at Georgetown University. And she founded Green Linnet records, and has performed in England and in Israel and I-don't-know-where-else. And she is a wonderfully effective singing teacher, so gifted in her words and her attempts to find just the right way to help each person that it feels as if you're in the presence of genius. I always feel, when I see her doing a singing workshop, that she's a Living National Treasure, as the Japanese say. I know a few other people who have this kind of living, holistic talent. They're a gift to the world far as I'm concerned. And I think there are lots of people who have a portion of their gifts, and I think it's having and expressing these gifts, in whatever measure you were born with them, that makes a musician. It's more than making music and it's independent of the kind of music you make. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Fortunato Date: 09 Mar 00 - 08:56 AM Ken Kesey once asked the president of a California Hell's Angels Chapter how they recruited new members. The Angel said: "We don't recruit them, we RECOGNIZE them."
One trouble with calling some folks musicians and some not is that it's a lot like establishing criteria for who is a Christian and who is not. It ennobles or enlightens no one. IMHOP, it's manure. Fortunato
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Peter T. Date: 09 Mar 00 - 09:26 AM Another interesting element someone mentioned to me in passing yesterday is people who are entranced by the sound of music, by which I mean (or the person I was talking to meant) just the significant quality of shifts in tone, timbre, chordal patterns, etc. It is like painters obsessed with different qualities of light and shade, or poets with slight shifts in word patterns. I notice (as a non-musician) that I can become intrigued with a sound shift (from major to minor, for instance); but it doesn't turn into the kind of thing a composer would wrestle with. I can't imagine (as Mbo seems to imagine) spending time on slight musical changes -- which aren't slight to a musician!!! I wonder if this is partly why musical people seem to be able to follow chord changes to accompany others (I know it is a skill you can pick up, so maybe it doesn't count as intrinsic).....yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: MMario Date: 09 Mar 00 - 09:38 AM Rita - I know what you mean when you say *I can't stop singing*. About 3 1/2 years ago I had my tonsils out --and was singing before I could swallow comfortably. In fact, I was singing before I could talk comfortably. I don't know how to define musician, but singer or instumentalist, I often prefer to hear someone who may have less technical skill - because they put true emotion into the performance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: sophocleese Date: 09 Mar 00 - 08:28 PM I don't think that the level of technical skill is inversely proportional to the level of emotion in the performance. Some people like to communicate however they can and others like to play around with a particular language of communication. A greater facility in the language will enable you to communicate with more precision and accuracy if that's what you want to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Rick Fielding Date: 09 Mar 00 - 08:55 PM Technical skill can often be tricky to recognize. On several occasions I complimented Sandy on his guitar accompaniements and naturally he "pooh poohed" and grumbled about not knowing anything on the instrument....but he's wrong....and I'm right. He is a very skilled accompanist. Was I predjudiced because of his lifetime investment in folk music? Perhaps, but I've known lots of others with great experience who haven't learned a durn thing. Excuse me, gotta go lay some technical skills on my next student. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Musician vs Someone-who-plays-music From: Marion Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:00 PM I am refreshing this just because it was on my mind. Marion |
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