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BUSHwhacked Two!!
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:29 PM No, oh no, Skeptic!! Not Al!!!! It's gotta be Hillary...we can't handle another wooden al campaign fiasco!! Only if they listen totally to our Big Mick and do everything he says!!**BG** Does anyone know a source for research into what past presidents took with them and how many trailer loads it took to move all of their papers to their presidential Libraries in their home states? Thanks, katrabble |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Troll Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:33 PM Skeptic, dissapointingty, I think it's politics. I think he should prosecute but I don't think he'll listen to me. After all. I didn't vote for him. I voted for Bugs Bunny. troll |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jan 01 - 10:54 PM But I thought Bugs Bunny got in?
I suspect that non prosecuting might have more to do with the fact that it would have been a circus, and made the Resident a laughing stock. There's been enough of that around the White House already I imagine.
I'm sure most ordinary people outside America will love to see a big state prosecution over this. It wouldn't quite be in the league of Little Monica and the Big Cigar, but it would be funny. And we'd be laughing at Bush, I'm afraid. Who better? As someone said in the election, it was the class swot versus the class clown.
It would be a hoot. Totally unfair maybe, but any press coverage I've seen has already treated it as a joke. I'm afraid pretty well anything Bush does is likely to be treated that way, so he can't give hostages to fortune. His best hope is to work things out so that people laugh with him rather than at him, which Reagan sometimes managed.
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:30 PM McGrath, Apologies with egg on my face. I typed before I researched and relied on my memory. The dates are set by Congress and were originally designed to accommodate travel time. Congress can change them if when they want. From your post, I'd guess that while we also have a civil service, more of our upper management types are appointed than are in the UK so transition may be a little more difficult. And we just wish Bugs had won. Kat, Prosecution or not, they done wrong. Much as a pains me to agree with troll, the former Clinton staffer actions was reprehensible and, if nothing else, Clinton (Bill) should say same. Treating the "w" thing like a joke is one thing. Treating vandalism as such is (to me) wrong, illeagal and politically stupid as it confirms the red area folks belief about the liberal press. I can hear the conversation now. "Yeah, they jumped all over Bush for a little drinking 20 years ago, but liberals trashin' the White House is a big joke." As a parent, how do I explain to my son (11 with a no-shades-of-gray view of things) why no one seems to care, either that they did vandalize the White House or that they aren't going to be punished. This is being turned into a liberal/conservative issue when it should be about a bunch of people most of us (red or blue area) wouldn't want as neighbors. I think Bush decided not to prosecute not because of fear of laughter but because he'd look like he was kicking them after they were down. Not the sort of thing his type does. Not in public, anyway. I've sent an email to the Democratic Chair of the State asking that the Executive Committee ask the National to at least make a statement deploring the actions. And it has to be Al in '04 cause Hilary promised she serve her full term in NY. Can't have a future president telling lies. Besides, we might need her vote in Congress. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: katlaughing Date: 26 Jan 01 - 11:36 PM Well, you've got a point there about Hillary, Skeptic. Thanks. I really would like to research that, though, NOT because I think it was a joke. I think it is deplorable and someone high up needs to say so, I agree. I would just like to know the stats on the others to compare to what the rancorous are saying about Clinton. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 27 Jan 01 - 12:37 AM How is this Clinton's fault ..... except in the abstract sense as he was the boss? We had a guy at work a while back who got in a fight with another employee (racially motivated, sad to say). Where does the responsibility lie? Applying the logic of the right (as proclaimed on talk radio, anyway), the person who hired the guy's to blame. Unless Clinton ordered it .... or listed 'willingness to vandalize the White House' as a required job skill, his responsibility is indirect, at best. I'll try a couple of meta-search engines and deja-news to see if I can find anything about what's happened after other transitions. Hope others will do the same, as it would be interesting. I know the problem of people taking souviniers off Air Force One has been around a long time. A friend of my fathers was on the crew at one time (early 70's) and said it was a problem back then. RE: Hillary - can't she run without having to give up her Senate Seat until/unless she wins? I know Texas and Vermont have that sort of law. Maybe NY does too. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 27 Jan 01 - 07:59 AM A. He probably wants to have Ashcroft in place before proceeding with any prosecutions since he doesn't have a Justice Dept. yet. B. He likely doesn't want to fool around with the "sophmoric" stuff and concentrate on rape, sedition or treasonous activity. C. He wants to take the media's focus off the Clintons who just won't go away. Maybe he will pay for the repairs himself. The photos of the disgraceful damage for use in the next election as campaign ad material is easily worth the price. D. Never mind the vandalism, the real outrage is the quid pro quo "pardons". Most are not political pardons but rather friend, family and other serious criminal buddies. E. The fact that the democRATS all defended this guy makes you all dirty participants. The same goes for the pubbies that voted to acquit. What name calling? mav |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Jan 01 - 08:56 AM Oh I do hope they do prosecute! Fun fun fun!
"And it has to be Al in '04 cause Hilary promised she serve her full term in NY." Can't see why - isn't Lieberman still a Senator? |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 27 Jan 01 - 10:46 AM McGrath, It was because she promised to serve out her full term. I doubt it would go to trial. Plea bargain probably, in return for paying for the repairs and community service. MAV A. The AG's office has more than enough competent, permanent staff to deal with relatively minor (legally speaking) acts of vandalism. With or without an AG, life goes on. And the decision on whether to prosecute (versus the actual trail where he'd want to have 'his' people in place), is his to make. The buck really does stop with him. B. I thought the Alien and Sedition acts had been repealed back in the late 1700s early 1800s? I didn't think sedition was currently on the books (per se) as a crime. Maybe someone can address that. Treason is a federal crime. Is rape, itself? As reported, the vandalism didn't even rise to the level of sophomoric. Made worse because they weren't kids but supposed professionals. Certainly any President (through the AG's office) has the right to determine whether a crime is prosecutable (whether perpetrator's can be identified, evidence collected and the like). I would personally (not as representative of "blue area types) prefer to know that he decided not to pursue this for those reason, versus political ones. C. Then your take is that the decision is a purely political one? Then no matter how minor, the message sent by the vandals and (lets call it what it looks like), the apologists, is clear. The law applies to some of us, for the rest it is just another PR tool. (Okay, extreme generalization but the element is there) D. And child abuse, rape and murder are worse still. One doesn't excuse, justify or in any way mitigate the other. Clinton went overboard on some of the pardons So did Ford. So did most other presidents. So do governor's. And then there's parole boards. The issue I'm after is the vandalism. E. This goes back to "responsibility". While I understand (though don't agree) with your statement, I can also argue that it is a perfect example of the idea that it isn't the individual that's to blame, its society. So how can we think about punishing the vandals when it isn't their fault. We just need a social program to help them. MAV, tell me you're not a closet liberal??!! Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:57 AM Not a lot on vandalism in the White House on the net. Wouldn't expect any in the Reagan/Bush transition. Maybe more but a lot of it's not popping up on search engines and most on-line records don't go back that far. From the Boston Globe - 1/26 in an article about the vandalism. ". When the victorious President Clinton and his troops seized the White House in 1993, they found the telephones a wreck, computers missing hard drives, and a departing staff that gave them the cold shoulder during the transition" Clinton didn't prosecute either. On Pardons, least we forget: Reported in the Charlotte Observer, April 1993 "A recent article in the Charlotte Observer speculates on why President George Bush, two days before leaving office, pardoned a small-time Pakistani heroin smuggler serving a long sentence in a North Carolina federal prison (John Monk and Gary Wright, "Why Did Bush Free Smuggler? Mystery Lingers in Charlotte Case," The Charlotte Observer, 3/27/93, 1A). Bush freed 32-year-old Aslam Adam of Karachi on January 18. Adam would not have been eligible for parole for another two years, having served eight years of a 55-year sentence. Neither Bush nor the U.S. Justice Department would comment on the reasons for the unusual pardon. In his four years in office, Bush pardoned only two other federal inmates." December 24, 1992 The Iran Contra Scandal cast an omnipresent pall over the Reagan and Bush presidencies, and on this date in 1992, outgoing leader George Bush decided to do something about it: He pardoned the last six major co-defendants still facing criminal charges Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: katlaughing Date: 27 Jan 01 - 12:04 PM THE ALIEN AND SEDITION ACTS In response to the threat of war with France, the Federalist-controlled U.S. Congress pased four laws known as the Alien and Sedition Acts in 1798. The laws lengthened the residency for naturalization to fourteen years and imposed a minimum five year advance notification for citizenship. The Acts also empowered the President to expel or deport aliens deemed a threat to public peace, and expel or imprison aliens whose country was at war with the United States. There were fines and/or imprisonment for writing false or malicious criticisms of the Government of the United States, the President, or Congress. Many journalists were fined or imprisoned during this period. The Acts were abolished during the presidency of Thomas Jefferson, who granted full pardons to most of those incarcerated. usatrivia.com - ask professor mark - October, 2000 From what I've read elsewhere, rape is a federal crime if it is forcible and/or drugs were used as in the "date-rape" types cases. kat
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Jan 01 - 02:57 PM Yes, Sceptic - but by the time there's anotheer Presidential Election, wouldn't it be time for Clintona to stand for re-election to the Senate anyway? So she'd already have served her full term. And she could stand for the Senate at the same time like I understood Lieberman did. Or have I got my wires crossed and Senators have a six-year term?
Incidentally - has anyone noticed that all the thread on the Cat at the moment are about music or music/song related in some way? Apart from this one, and a handful of others. So maybe we should have some musical thread drift hee. I put "bush" into the DT search box, and it came up with no fewer than 121 songs. On the other hand, "gore" only came up with 74 songs. |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:21 PM McGrath, Senators serve for 6 years, Presidents for 4. Hillary completes her term in '06. I'm not sure of the laws in NY. Each state varies. If they're like Vermont, she can run for office while retaining her seat, but if she wins, she'd have to resign from the Senate. "Clinton" turns up stuff too. Mostly Rev war era. And the ever popular "adultery". Maybe "dumb" would be a good one. Kat, Thanks for doing my homework on the Alien and Sedition Acts. Most of what I could find on federal law (on a quick search) was about related suits that can be brought (violation of civil rights and such) Intuitively I think you're right but all the stuff I could find dealt with related issues: i.e violation of civil rights, possessions of date rape drugs, versus the actual crime. Unless the Feds differ to sates when rape happens on Federal Property, these should be something. Maybe Larry will read the thread and help out. Regards, John Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:30 PM Thanks Skeptic, I'm clear now. Though I doubt if that'll stop her. I imagine she'd be as good as her husband about phrasing things so that there's room for a little creative ambiguity.
"Monica" only throws up one song on the DT. Well worth reading it though... |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: SeanM Date: 27 Jan 01 - 03:35 PM Actually, skeptic, on google, "dumb M*F*" gets you GWB's merchandise page. Not a liberal conspiracy, not a prankster in the ranks... According to an article (which I've lost the link to, dang it), a few online 'zines used the phrase to describe our Beloved Selected, google correlated the descriptives, and added it to the search criteria. Still amuses me, though. M |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: katlaughing Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:23 PM That's pretty funny, Sean! Skeptic/John, apparently the Violence Against Women Act did consider rape a federal crime, BUT, if you a click here you will find a good, imo, comment on how, in May 00, the Supreme Court struck down the right of a woman to sue for violation of her civil rights in the matter of being raped. I still haven't found the specifics, though, to see what kind of criminal charges might apply. kat |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 27 Jan 01 - 04:52 PM "Youi do realize don't you that, while you're rolling around on the floor taking bites out of each other, the politicians from both sides are scratching each others backs, and drinking together and swapping dirty stories and generally having a high-old time at both your expenses" Not in our Legislature they aren't, well at least not "together". They HATE each other. Our illustrious House Majority leader (D) stated "I don't give a damn what the Constitution says", no surprise, we are the highest taxed, most liberal state in the US. signed, The people from one of the red areas of a blue state |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 27 Jan 01 - 05:15 PM Yeah Sean, That's a riot. Perhaps W's idiocy explains why Garp D**khead and other "me too" democRATS are singing along (a little musical reference there) with him. (W to Richard Gebhardt before taking office) "You better not ever lie to me" (boy). Maybe that's why some of the betrayed black ministers of Chicago are "going to give Mr. Bush a chance". I think we've seen enough of the Paul Begala, Harold Ickes, Julian Epstein, James Carville, Jerry Rivers and other elitist, PC, super IQ, ethical freedom types. Thank God the Clinton News Network is falling apart, if only Bubba and the Hildebeast would go away. |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 27 Jan 01 - 06:20 PM MAV, On elitism, You might want to read "Who Rules America? : Power and Politics in the Year 2000 -- G. William Domhoff" Being PC is funny, when carried to an extreme. But then, so is being religiously correct. The danger is to mandate either. And the problem is to come up with acceptable definitions. Super IQ? - do I detect a budding Luddite?. IQ, as used and measured in our society today tests (mostly) the ability to pass standardized IQ tests. I don't think having or not having a high IQ has a lot to do with much of anything except that as a culture we seem to have a 'mad scientist going to destroy the world" fixation. History has demonstrated that having or not having a high IQ has little to do with being able to royally screw things up. Ethical Freedom - Do you mean situational ethics as opposed to the freedom to follow various ethical systems? The probability of bi-partisanship in this Congress is remote. The battle will be over legislation, not cabinet appointments. The best is yet to be. BTW, Did he really say that? Do you have a source? Maybe he and GWB had the same PolySci Professor in College as both seem to have creative views about our system of government. And while you may live in the "the highest taxed, most liberal state in the US", I seem to remember taxes in the US as a percent of GNP are the lowest in the industrialized world. Small consolation, true. But consider my State. My State is moderate leaning to conservatism and has one of the lowest per capita taxes in the nation (Florida). They (the Conservative Governor and Legislature) do fun and creative things, almost destroy the Everglades and allow series overbuilding and uncontrolled development. We consistently underfund education (about a billion annually) and use as justification (despite clear proof to the contrary stretching back over 10 years) that our school population isn't really growing. We had vouchers. They were found unconstitutional. We don't have enough text books even in our best schools and the answer is to underfund and institute programs to take away even more money. Granted, our funding is better than Texas but not by much. Oh, and the State Board of Reagents that runs the State University System is about to be abolished and repalced with separate boards for each University. The first such in the Nation and one guaranteed to increase political patronage and decrease quality of education. I add this because we aren't a liberal state (in the sense of State government), don't have high taxes and our leaders can by no means be considered PC, High IQ or ethically free. (elitism's another matter). The argument that in the final analysis Congress is just one big mutual admiration society is probably less true now than it was 15 or 20 years ago. Both sides make deals to get what they want. Some call it politics as usually. A sort of flexible value/ethics thing practiced by both sides. Practicality is one way to describe their behavior. So is situational ethics or what you seem to be calling "ethical freedom". Another is the ever popular cynicism "the end justifies the means." Its not an ideological thing so much as how we play at politics. It may even be a necessary thing. Its not linked to party, though. (IMO) I won't argue that Democrats aren't guilty , nor maintain the Republicans are. Whether they are one or the other has not a lot to do with it. Power has everything to do with it and Power truly corrupts, whether it grows out of politics or money or fame. Kat, I came across the this re: rape and civil rights: http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/01/11/scotus.02/ Thanks for the other link. Regards, John
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Jan 01 - 07:19 PM Not in our Legislature they aren't, well at least not "together".
Well that's what they have to show you when they're performing. You pay them for it. It'd spoil the game if they let you ordinary people in on it.
They HATE each other.
That could be just another indication of how close together politically they are. That's when the real hate come out. There's an old story about a new MP looking round the chamber and he says "At last I can come in and see my enemies all lined up against me"; and the old MP who's showing him round says "They aren't your enemies, they're your opponents. Your enemies are sitting behind you, on your own side."
Maybe it's all different over there (and I know the way you lay out your chambers is different). But I beg leave to doubt if it's all as straighforward as they want you to think. There's a lot of acting in politics, and they need one another. Doesn't mean they probably don't sincerely hate each other. A retty hateful bunch. But I suspect they are a lot more non-partisan in allocating that hate than they'd like you to think. |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Troll Date: 27 Jan 01 - 09:37 PM Skeptic. I've got $5.00 that says that Hillary WILL run for the presidency in 2004 regardless of what she said about finishing her 6 year term as Senator from N.Y. She despises Gore (from what I've read) and I don't think she'll be able to resist. I enjoyed your section on IQ and the fact that having or not having a high IQ was not a prerequisite for screwing up royally as you yourself have so ably demonstrated. troll |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: katlaughing Date: 27 Jan 01 - 09:58 PM Thanks, Skeptic for that link, but if you will look at the dates, my link was more up to date and says that the Supreme Court ruled a woman cannot sue a rapist for violation of her civil rights, so still nothing as far as criminal charges on the federal level. kat |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 27 Jan 01 - 10:38 PM troll, Deal, then. All we gotta do is find someone we both trust to hold the money. You may be right by Hillary. I still think she'll wait until '08 to put some distance between her and the less noble events of the her husband's presidency. Plus by fulfilling her vow, she gives the loyal opposition one less issue. If she doesn't run in '04, (and a democrat wins), she won't risk splitting the party in '08 but would accept the VP slot. I know she doesn't like Gore. I don't like him all that much and I'm a liberal, but if they run against each other it will fragment support. Unless GWB really does turn out to an actively ultra-right ideologue. In that case I think moderates and liberals would support almost anyone. Okay, the truth is, she won't run until '08. The Trilateral Commission decided it last week. We've even reserved the space for the inauguration and the invite list is in the works. Entertainment will be provided by the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, the invocation will be omitted as potentially offense to some religious and anti-religious groups and no food will be served to demonstrate the plight of the homeless. Same sex couples will, of course, be given preference. The overall theme will be "Its Payback Time". Go ahead, tell everyone. They'll just think you're one of those right-wing conspiracy nuts. (In your case there'd be ample evidence of at least part of that charge). Damn but control of the media is great. On the other hand, if Gore fades into obscurity in academia, she might well do it. Power has always been a bigger turn-on than integrity. I won't explore which end of the spectrum you might place me on. I think your point was the screwing up part. About that I can't really argue as my acquaintance with you is a perfect example of one of my bigger ones. About the only groups who seem to be able to reliably demonstrate that whatever their test measures equates to much of anything is the people who publish the tests. But then the same can be said for using standardized test to 'grade' schools and 'prove' students have learned something. There are reliable test that measure the various identified components of intelligence but they don't lend themselves to mass testing and sound bites. This is much in the same vein as Secretary designates Norton's contention that the EPD is unnecessary and that the businesses doing the polluting are perfectly competent to police themselves. And are willing to do studies to prove it, too. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 27 Jan 01 - 10:56 PM Kat, I did look at your link. After I posted mine. Sigh! I plead the flu. No I don't. It was the Bush people, out to get me....oops, sorry, I'm the egomaniac, trolls the paranoid. Apologies anyway. I still can't find anything. Maybe Monday at work. McGrath, The ways of our Congress are worthy of Byzantium at its apex. Probably deliberately so. The last thing most politicians seem to want (and not just at the Federal level) is for the voters to know what's going on. In my County, appointees to the various Regulatory and Advisory Boards are usually published about 4 days before the meeting. Not a lot of time to figure out if the person's someone you want on a Board. If you understand the system, you can find out the names a lot earlier. Is the system documented so you can figure out where to look by reading the rules of procedure? Not likely. Then there's the Federal Register. That's where all the regulations are published, often based on a law that says "we want to do thus-and-so" and authorize a Department to make up rules to make it so. All the liberal/conservative smoke screen aside, it does explain why a lot of people don't get involved or bother to vote. The new County Manager where I live, for example, would like to see community associations given at least partial control over the discretionary tax dollars budgeted for their community. It has happened in a few places, but then so has the election of socialist mayors. It rarely goes anywhere. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:12 PM Skeptic, Thanks for the reading references. "Being PC is funny, when carried to an extreme. But then, so is being religiously correct. The danger is to mandate either. And the problem is to come up with acceptable definitions" True and I advocate neither, but moral codes can only come from religion or natural law. "Super IQ?" I was referring to the 'tudes of the aforementioned smart@$$ liberals. Common sense doesn't seem to travel with that kind of ego. "Ethical freedom" My PC description of CORRUPT! I am of the belief that it is a true quote. Obviously not reported by Comrade Dan. "I seem to remember taxes in the US as a percent of GNP are the lowest in the industrialized world" Federal income taxes perhaps, but when you factor in all federal payroll, state and local, plus the hidden taxes paid by consumers (corporate taxes included in the retail price of.....everything) tolls and fuel tax for transportation of goods, it gets pretty offensive (50+%) "FL" How long has FL been a republican state vs the developments you described? Doesn't it take a few years to pull off all this damage? "power corrupts" You are correct sir. All the DC republicans from here are now RINOs. mav |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:22 PM McGrath, The emotion in this case is real, but it's complicated. We have divisions on both sides. Our party is both pro-life and murder/bort and there are pro-life democrats (French-Catholic). The dems are all pretty cohesive however, and most of the GOPers are pro-business but split on social issues. I'm not sure they are smart enough to pull off political theatrics in any credible manner. mav |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: katlaughing Date: 27 Jan 01 - 11:58 PM I knew it, Skeptic. Troll made ya do it, huh?! {*_*} kat |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Banjer Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:56 AM All this brings to mind a new song title that a friend proposed just the other day: "Something Stinks In Florida And It's Hidden In The Bushes" |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 28 Jan 01 - 09:00 AM MAV, Florida is shifting to an odd mix, politically. State Government has been republican for three years. And yes, before that, the Democrats underfunded education. Jeb Bush, however, ran (in part) on a platform of fixing the problems. Other than vouchers (which got tossed out by the courts) his funding requests and the dollars appropriated are about $1 billion a year short of projected needs. The latest rationalization is that the number of new students has been over-estimated. Given that the methodology didn't change on how to estimate and that historically, using that method the new student population was usually underestimated, the statement seems curious. It does promise to get interesting as we have an amendment to the state constitution that makes education a primary responsibility of the state and sooner or latter it will end up in court. In their defense, thanks to the tireless work of a group of environmental activist and with support of Jeb Bush and the Federal government, the Everglades problem is being addressed. The State share alone is $4 billion of the $8 billion total cost, over the next 30 years. Sadly, those who bare a lot of the responsibility (sugar growers and massive urban/suburban sprawl in South Florida), don't bear the majority of tax burden. The Everglades problem is the type of the ice-burg. Looking at water levels and salt water intrusion into the aquifer (especially in South Florida) potable water is going to become a major issue fairly soon. The tax thing I heard at a seminar about education funding. I remember the contention being as stated; that for all taxes (direct/indirect, personal and corporate), considered as a percentage of GNP, the US was lowest. It didn't get into the issue of who bears the burden. Thanks for the clarification on the ethics thing. Your definition of ethical freedom, pragmatically, would seem to be what I call situational ethics. Or the ethics of expediency. An interesting perspective on the Democrats being cohesive and the Republicans not. Most of my friends (from both camps) feel it's the other way around. kat, troll made me do it? Please don't encourage him. Anyway, I think he was busy arguing with Joan d'Arc over her tactics in the siege of Orleans at the time. Or channeling Winnie the Pooh. Or both. Hard to keep track. (Sorry for the creep but I've found that if I don't notice him in my posts fairly regularly, he makes life hell for his friends and family. And sulks). Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:08 AM As I read it, abortion splits people in all parties , and many famiies. In fact a lot of individual people feel pretty divided in themselves about it.
The balance of opinion is maybe different in the diffeent parties, but that's contingent, it's not a real political difference. The same goes about most things, taxes, public services, foreign policy. The parties act like they're polarised in opposite extremes, but they overlap so much. They're really just different wings of the same party, sparring partners, who keep each other in business and marginalise any real opposition in the process.
And I could as easily be talking about England here as the USA. Except that I think maybe over there more people take the shadow boxing as serious.
As I said, none of that is to say that they don't quite sincerely hate each other. I just don't believe that the real hate is preferentially directed at political opponents. (And this week's feeding frenzy in the British press around Mandelson bears it out - though I don't expect the US papers have got round to taking much notice of that, reasonably enough.) |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:35 AM Hey John, On education, it's my belief that this term also has (at least) two definitions. 1. The verb, an action where a student acquires ever increasing knowledge and skills by diciplined immersion in useful information. 2. The noun, a burdensome government bureaucracy, monopolistic in nature and totally controlled by labor unions. This huge system consumes vast sums of taxpayer money and has very little actual interest in the success of students but rather in protecting union "jobs" and promoting mediocre performance by protecting the incompetent. When we talk about funding education, we need to determine which type we are talking about. In my home town here in the woods, we have 435 elementary students. We have 10 teachers making over $50,000 per year. Considering we have only a general store as our "business district" and no other significant sources of employment, and that the median income in this state is around $24,000, something is very out of balance. Also consider that a school year does not last 12 months. In this state, most of that stuff is top secret and I can see why. If you can accept that home schoolers can cover K-12 education costs for about $250 and that we spend around $4500 per year per student for "education", we're talking babysitting. I'm not saying many people could muster homeschooling, but the current spelling bee champion and geography bee (I think) champion were home schooled. American public school students score among the worst in the world. Why is that even remotely acceptable? My point is that the one-size-fits-all education approach by the government schools doesn't really challenge the individual student There should be a format somewhere between private schools and home schooling which would allow parents the choice, responsibility and duty of educating their children in the exact way they see fit. I do believe students should be funded by the state since to do otherwise based on property taxes has created "rich and poor" school districts. Given that you can't fire incompetent teachers (labor union) guess where they are sent, the poor districts. Any doubt why the poor stay poor? They're getting screwed by the "education" monopoly. If the education industry were allowed to proliferate, specialists (just like the medical community) of all types could excel in any imaginable area (gifted, slow learners, faith based, military, behavioral problems etc.) All kids could be directed to the successful school of the parents' choice and the bad teachers could then work at McDonlads. Whatever the answer, "education" reform needs to happen loosening the grip of organized labor/crime on the taxpayer. Having seen your FLSC (a total democrat partisan entity) in action, I can see why they ruled the way they did on the Constitutionality of vouchers. Regards, mav |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:00 AM Aye McGrath, "As I read it, abortion splits people in all parties , and many famiies" It does, but on this side of the pond the GOP is generally pro-life and the dems are usually the murder/borts. "The same goes about most things, taxes, public services, foreign policy. The parties act like they're polarised in opposite extremes" Well, it may look that way there, but when one looks at the nature of bills introduced here and the direction of the votes by party, clear and distinct differences between them become obvious. I will concede however that the RINOs are indeed our enemy. I would rather share conversation with a conservative democrat than a liberal in my own party, maybe I'd make a new friend (or a convert) it's happened before. The voting records of the various legislators paints the democrats generally as anti-business, and the Republicans as typically pro-business. With Republicans in the minority it's not hard to understand why we have a massive exodus of business from this state. Taxation WITH representation is no improvement. Respectfully, mav
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,Stiklea Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:46 AM Oh, Christ, the standard, canned, teacher-bashing bullshit/lies/fabrication & half-truths that you assholes love so well. In my home town here in the woods, we have 435 elementary students. We have 10 teachers making over $50,000 per year.
What does the superintendant/principal (administration) make? These teachers are also required to have masters degrees which cost a dollar or two out of their own pockets & years in college. Hey, if its such a great fucking racket, go out & get an education yourself, get certified and get on the Teacher Gravy Train! Considering we have only a general store as our "business district" and no other significant sources of
Also consider that a school year does not last 12 months.
In this state, most of that stuff is top secret and I can see why.
If you can accept that home schoolers can cover K-12 education costs for about $250
American public school students score among the worst in the world. Why is that even remotely
There should be a format somewhere between private schools and home schooling which would allow
Given that you can't fire incompetent teachers (labor union) guess where they are sent, the poor
Any doubt why the poor stay poor? . |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 28 Jan 01 - 12:27 PM To whom it may concern; For those of you who thought me sooooo ignorant for my common classification of liberal, socialists and communists, read this. This is a listing of the socialists (progressives)in our Congress http://www.netprogress.org/legis/index.htm You will find some of your favorite buddies on here (Maxine W. and David B. et al) Norman Thomas, for many years the U.S. Socialist Party presidential candidate, stated: "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without knowing how it happened." If they were to keep the guns they want to grab, they could become communists. mav
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:31 PM Well, well, well. I'm not anti-teacher. I'm anti-establishment! Perhaps you've heard of that. To quote stickley; "..Christ....bullshit...you assholes...great fucking racket....so fucked up....THESE ignorant bastards.... local morons such as yourself...Bullshit...etc." Did you learn all those big vulgar words in teacher's college or from the DNC? Stickley's post also contains exactly the type of condecending elitism I was referring to in an earlier post. Here, drink some vomit. A master's degree to be a union thug babysitter, seems such a waste. A large percentage of MA. "teachers" couldn't even pass a simple competency test, the misspellings and gramatical errors were unbelievable. I believe similar situations occured in NYC and other blue areas on the map. A degree in "Ed" is just so much crap! Seems like a math major ought to be able to teach math. Public school teaching positions should just be a "pass through" public service position on the way to a career, NOT A CAREER! The REAL teachers can teach in or start private schools. More vomit? Those loser teachers can go pound sand. If you (stickley) are a teacher I would fight to defend the kids from exposure to the likes of your disrespectful lowlife behavior and if you're not, thank God! "And teachers aren't "sent" anywhere- they're hired by school boards and boards of education which elected by local morons such as yourself" In this case, the crap sinks to the bottom and the good teachers get into the good school districts. You must teach in DC. LOL! What do you teach, Liberal Ebonic Journalism Dirt Speak 101? " 'Any doubt why the poor stay poor?' " I'll stand by that comment and I rest my case.
Let the vouching begin! mav
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 28 Jan 01 - 01:34 PM Pardon me, It's STIKLEA, not Stickley (must be a "lady") mav |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Troll Date: 28 Jan 01 - 03:37 PM MAV, WHY should teaching not be a career? It takes time to become an effective teacher and there is continual upgrading by way of recertification. Going back for a masters degree is really the only way that a teacher can get a real raise in pay. Your assertion that the unions run things has got to be a joke. Most teachers unions that I have come into contact with over the last 30 years have been pale imitations of a real labor union. They do little to obtain better conditions for their members (which is what a union is supposed to do) and almost nothing if a member has a problem with the administration. What they sem to do best is posture around Washington and claim to control members votes. As far as teaching in private schools, only a damn fool would take a 50% cut in what is already a lousy paycheck to teach in a place where the benefits ane nil, and there's no job security of any kind including that the school might not exist next year. I have a friend who wanted to start an all girls school -7 through 12- here in Gainesville. She has the necessary credentials, experience, and business accumen to do this. She found a site, the building was large enough, adequate room for some sports etc. Then she found out what she would have to do to bring the place up to code. Completely new bathrooms with handicap access, an elevator for access to the second floor; these were not safety regulations, but handicap access regulations. Never mind that it was to be a private school, since it was to be a school, all these things had to be done. It would have cost her almost $500,00. She accepted a professorship at N.C.State in Boone. Stackly (sic) you will get your point across a lot better if you ease up on the flameing. Skeptic, we are NOT paranoid! We used to be schizophrenic but they adjusted our medication and we're much better now. troll&troll |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 28 Jan 01 - 03:40 PM MAV, On education, it's my belief that this term also has (at least) two definitions. Maybe on #1, Maybe on #2. 1. Sounds good on the surface. Florida has instituted a program of testing/grading in schools similar to the one GWB proposes in his package. School funding and (eventually) teacher's salaries are dependent on student's grades on standardized tests. Any guess as to what the students learn to do? And the "proof" that the test's actually demonstrate anything are inconclusive at best. 2. The system is unwieldily and expense. Too many bureaucrats and monitoring programs (mandated by the Federal Government for the most part). And what about school sports programs? A while back, a nearby School district opened a new school. No money for books for the library or computers, but the sports program was fully funded. Another district tried to buy new textbooks to replace outdated ones.. Because of limited funds, the proposed solution was to cut the sports budget by 10%. At the next meeting, over 200 people showed up to protest the decision (usually less than 10 showed up). Result was no new text books and a fully funded sports program. If the goal is to educate and parents need to be involved, the education needs to start with the parents. Plenty of other examples. Driver's Ed, for example. Or using limited funds to buy computers that are outdated inside of two years. Programs that are created because the school system can get a federal grant to teach anger-control on the schools and history textbooks that stop with the election of Nixon. With mandated programs for learning deficiencies (my son benefitted from same), legislatively imposed requirements that are cumbersome, time consuming and require certain levels and types of staffing. Any wonder where the money goes. Florida is a right to work state. We have a union but membership isn't required. The teachers have a interest in teaching the students (at least to pass tests) the "We have 10 teachers making over $50,000 per year" In general, we don't. As a college town, salaries are a little lower because of the University. Starting salary with a Masters is 27K. "Considering we have only a general store as our "business district" and no other significant sources of employment, and that the median income in this state is around $24,000, something is very out of balance" Our problem is that because of the University and a publically owned utility, over half the potential taxable property is tax-exempt. "If you can accept that home schoolers can cover K-12 education costs for about $250 and that we spend around $4500 per year per student for "education", we're talking babysitting" I have friends who home school (three families). Their costs are about $1000 a year. If you count the value of their time, costs rise. Not as high, but they don't have to do special programs for learning problems and the like. Home schooling can work well. It tends to neglect social development. "American public school students score among the worst in the world. Why is that even remotely acceptable? " It isn't. And I'm not claiming that we have good students but why do we care what somebody scores on the SAT and see that as a valid measure of anything. SAT's seem ideally designed to protect non-teacher education types from having to make a value judgement about a child. Its clean, simple, objective, you can't get sued over it and who cares if 20% of the college freshman entering one state university couldn't identify the century of the American Civil War. All of them had to score above 1200 to get in. (Source was one of the RR talk shows so validity is questionable) "There should be a format somewhere between private schools and home schooling which would allow parents the choice, responsibility and duty of educating their children in the exact way they see fit." Getting parents to show up for parent/teacher conferences is a big problem. The solution is to get parents involved, but when the turnout of parents at a basketball game is three times that of the PTA, I question if you're not hoping for the impossible. Most private schools (non-boarding anyway, require that parents spend a certain number of hours working at the school as a condition of their child's enrollment. "I do believe students should be funded by the state since to do otherwise based on property taxes has created "rich and poor" school districts." In Duval County, the rich districts demanded that the School Board spend more money on their schools since they paid more taxes. As they couldn't change the per capita, the richer schools got things like a $3 million computer lab. The poor schools couldn't even get money for a copier. Stopping that kind of thing is difficult. Fixed funding formulas fail to address the problem. "Given that you can't fire incompetent teachers (labor union) guess where they are sent, the poor districts. Any doubt why the poor stay poor? They're getting screwed by the "education" monopoly." Damn, we agree. Scarey. "If the education industry were allowed to proliferate, specialists (just like the medical community) of all types could excel in any imaginable area (gifted, slow learners, faith based, military, behavioral problems etc.) All kids could be directed to the successful school of the parents' choice and the bad teachers could then work at McDonlads. " Specialist cost money. And how do you know if they're any good.? I mean, a doctor generally has observable proof of success or failure. How do you evaluate teachers? A few pilot programs seem to show that, even under the current bureaucracy, what works is getting the trouble making kids into separate classes and requiring parental involvement. In middle school, peer mediation. "Whatever the answer, "education" reform needs to happen loosening the grip of organized labor/crime on the taxpayer" You omitted politicians, special interest groups, Colleges of Education, text book publishers (check this out: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/01/15/textbook.errors.ap/index.html) And parents who think football is a valid course of study. (Or just don't want to deal with their kids complaining). "Having seen your FLSC (a total democrat partisan entity) in action, I can see why they ruled the way they did on the Constitutionality of vouchers." It was a circuit judge in Leon County (state capital). Jeb is appealing. The problem was that funds could be used in religiously run schools, to promote religion. The US Supreme Court seems to disagree, if the funds are used only for non-religious purposes. An accounting nightmare if ever there was one. Partisans, yes. But they're our partisans. And they keep getting reelcted. Regards, John
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 28 Jan 01 - 04:21 PM troll, Which one of you is doing the posting this time? Sticklea, You make valid points that (IMO) are spoiled by the flaming. Unless you think all of mav's stuff really is a put-on, why flame? Besides, it messes up my spell-checker when I'm proofing. "Oh, Christ, the standard, canned, teacher-bashing bullshit/lies/fabrication & half-truths that you assholes love so well." Better than blaming ourselves, though. *BG* And he didn't even get into sex education and political indoctrination. Or the secret induction into a covens or .......another *BG* "What does the superintendent/principal (administration) make? These teachers are also required to have masters degrees which cost a dollar or two out of their own pockets & years in college. Hey, if its such a great fucking racket, go out & get an education yourself, get certified and get on the Teacher Gravy Train!" Stripped of the ranting, exactly. Teachers are underpaid and administrators over-paid. Some states do help subsidize the cost of a master's degree. Few have any criteria to rate the effectiveness of teachers beyond standardized tests. Is a teacher that instills in her students a love of say, reading, worth more or less than one who teaches them how to pass test. Guess which one gets retained or rewarded. "Because teachers make more than gas jockeys and less than plumbers or electricians or snow-plow operators and are the lowest-paid profession of any with comparable education/training/licensing requirements?? I don't think so. Maybe your local elected officials should stop whining and get off their asses to promote some economic development." And consider the importance of what they do (hopefully) Teaching children how to think, how, giving them tools to help them understand the world and themselves. (Sounds good, anyway) "Also consider that the school workday for teachers is about 16 hours, that they are ineligible for overtime. Also consider that a lot of them pay for supplies/books/materials out of their own pockets due to inadequate budgets. Also consider that a lot of them have their OWN children to raise." And some of them teach summer school or take classes. Th e12 month thing wasn't their choice (though many like it). Mav, does your boss require you to sponsor a club after hours, on you r own time? Not ask, require? "Bullshit. Its all public record & you vote on the school budget and elect the school board. If you're just too ignorant to find out this information, that's nobody's fault but yours" It may not be true in all states. Oh, the general budget is available but in some states detail isn't. And some states still allow Boards to meet/discuss issues in private. "if you can accept that then you're either a moron, or you haven't bothered to check." Well, maybe not a moron but I agree. "Its acceptable, apparently, because assholes like you whine about the cost, and about "lazy overpaid teachers".. The US spends the least on education of any developed country in the world. You get what you pay for. " Its not just .... people .... like Mav. It seems to be a public perception that spans the political, social and economic spectrum. I've sat at a School Board meeting and listen to complaints about teachers (names weren't allowed), claiming they were either to liberal or too strict or too lenient or to intolerant Turns out it was the same teacher. .As a society, we place no value on education or learning as having any intrinsic value. "Parents have those choices and responsibilities now, have always had them, and it is precisely because parents cannot be bothered to be involved in the education of their spawn- and foist it off on the schools as surrogate parents, which role they were never intended to & which they cannot possibly fulfill, that the education in the US is so fucked up- Its the wholesale abdication of parental responsibility both personal and fiscal, not, quote Government Bureaucracy and the Unions, unquote. And its not just -or even primarily- the poor doing this- its the supposed 'educated classes' as well." I think you could have used a lot more invective ( without a BG). Parents don't want to get involved (And, in truth I think, administrators aren't that wild about it). Teachers and kids would love it. I used to take time off from work to go on school field trips or just work as an aide. Out of thirty kids it was always the same 6 or 7 who helped out. The ones who complained loudest, never had time. We has one mother who lead the fight to ban certain books from the library. But never even made it to the parent/teacher conference. "Utter bullshit. Tenure does NOT mean you cannot be fired for incompetence. Even with tenure, the Board always has ways to remove a teacher if they want to- "eliminate the position", "consolidate classes" and trumped-up charges of all sorts." Well, not utter....close though. "And teachers aren't "sent" anywhere- they're hired by school boards and boards of education which elected by local morons such as yourself, and for which positions (board members) there are NO QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED WHATSOEVER. In some states you don't even have to be literate. THESE ignorant bustards RUN the schools, not the teaching staff." "No more doubt than why ignorant bigots stay ignorant and bigoted. I hope you recognize yourself." And this diatribe helps combat ignorance how? Same question to Mav for when he starts flaming. 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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,Sticklea Date: 28 Jan 01 - 05:00 PM Unless you think all of mav's stuff really is a put-on Of course I dont. I think its vicious bullshit, posted by a bigoted moron who really believes it, more's the pity. And I am amazed by those who tolerate it, and more so by the MAV-apologists who condone, excuse and encourage it- sorry, him. He's a gobshite- period. |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jan 01 - 05:31 PM My three sisters have over 89 years collective experience in teaching. They certainly didn't go into it expecting to make a huge salary of any kind. IMO, none of them has ever received as much as they deserve. When they got into teaching they were motivated by love of teaching and chidlren, with strong support from parents and communities they were in. It was still a revered vocation at whihc most did a very good job; my sisters are some of the best. The climate has changed so much, it is so contentious, so unsupported, yet so much is expected of teachers in general, besides teaching their subject, it is no longer as attractive nor motivating as it used to be. Most parents have abdicated any responsibility for the chidlren and their education. Many children have no books, magazine, or even newspapers at home. Our culture does not revere learning the way it used to and teachers are ready made scapegoats for lack on the part of parents. Teacher-bashing does not solve a thing, better you should look to the people who have the children and what they are filling their lives with or not. The government nor teachers can make up for what parents need to provide their children with in their early years for learning, socialisation, and a good productive life. kat |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 28 Jan 01 - 06:38 PM Stiklea, IMO, all flaming someone does is convince them they're right. Mav may be convinced he has the keys to the kingdom. I have issues like that. So do you. I'm pretty sure mav thinks we're misguided morons, refusing to see the plain truth when he points it out to us. I do tolerate mav. I don't excuse or condone his flaming either but he has the right to his opinions. If mav is as convinced as he comes across, all the flaming does is convince him that he has to be right. He becomes the victim of an unwarranted attack. I've always found that martyr's are a lot more trouble to deal with than the merely misguided. Kat, You're right. Most teachers teach because it's a passion with them. Why else put up with it? Sadly, it doesn't get the respect it deserves. Doing away with publci schools al la mav would clearly demonstate that $4500 a year per student is cheap. I think its more than just the parents not having books and such. As a society we don't seem to value reading (or education) all that much. My father read up to the point he didn't have enough strength to hold a book. My brother and I are heavy readers and both my sisters have always had books and magazines around. My son (age 11) lives with his mother who rarely reads. Imagine my surprise when I found out he was the best reader in his class and loved the library. My brothers son has never liked reading for pleasure. One of my younger sister's son's lives to read, the other's like my nephew. But when kids do reports that have been cut and pasted off the internet and the parents get upset when the teacher complains, what can you do? Books take three things: effort, time and thinking. Most people won't take, don't have and don't want to. My rant is finished. I need to go. I think troll escaped again, as I hear police sirens in that direction. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Troll Date: 28 Jan 01 - 07:03 PM I told them where you were. AND I told them that you were being reasonable. Again I'm doing the posts. He's asleep. BTW excellent response on MAV and Stackley. troll |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 28 Jan 01 - 07:47 PM troll, I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to you. Sigh. Damning praise. Regards, John
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Troll Date: 28 Jan 01 - 09:15 PM Why would you damn Praise? Besides, she changed her name to WSI...WYSY...WIGY...~Susan. troll |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: Skeptic Date: 28 Jan 01 - 09:23 PM troll, Why do I bother with any of you. Oh I remember now. Its like something out of "Pirates of Penzance". Regards John
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: GUEST,MAV Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:05 PM Yes, but the difference is, if I thought you were misguided morons, I wouldn't say I thought you were morons. mav |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:21 PM Thanks, Skeptic. I didn't mean to imply that it was only the lack of reading material in homes. You are absolutely correct about love of reading, etc. I just didn't state it clearly enough. I grew up in a family of readers. My mom was reading up to the day she passed on; dad is still going at almost 84. Two of my children are heavy readers; the other find little time for it, at the moment, as she has twin 3 yr. old boys, BUT she and her husband do spend plenty of time reading to them and I am proud to say "my boys" love their books. Frankly as difficult as it is to teach, these days, it would have to be a "calling"...I don't see how anyone could do it, otherwise. So, what are we up to, 2 Trolls or 3?! LOL kat
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: wysiwyg Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:23 AM I'll be damned! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BUSHwhacked Two!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:23 AM But, under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without knowing how it happened.
You should be so lucky. Socialism is as American a tradition as apple pie, and it'll be good news fro teh world when you appreciate that, but it won't be achieved as easily as that. The internal threats to your freedom come from quite a different direction.
(Incidentally I note in today's paper that it now looks pretty certain that Al Gore did in fact beat George Bush in the Floridasweepstake. So, in spite of all the embarassment, obtructing the count proved a worthwhile investment for Baby Bush.)
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