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BS: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea
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BS: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Apr 01 - 06:50 PM Classism invites subdivisions of every possible commonality. It's the only way any of this awfulness can stay in place. Any two people, groups, or interests that might discover a common cause against organizationally-entrenched evil must be persuaded instead to fight one another. We don't have to look too far to see it in action every day; but at least here at Mudcat the music keeps pulling us back to a central reality we all say we share. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: Big Red Date: 16 Apr 01 - 09:30 PM The world community has noticed and is trying to do something about the situation. This is a perfect instance where the UN can be of great humanitarian help. We will never be able to understand how parents can sell children but maybe we (the world community) can stop it. There are a lot of people who do care. |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Apr 01 - 10:01 PM How about if this were a boatload of children on their way to an International adoption agency? Private national and international adoption is, in essence, very much the same......except the children are worth more money. Because the child may be going to a "better" life and environment, does that change the elemental feature of slavery, of children for profit? Is the end result the mitigating circumstance? Don't answer that. Just bear in mind that poverty is the enemy here........graft, payoffs, corruption in governments..........all stemming from the poverty brought about by...........????? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Apr 01 - 10:05 PM Pat, I was wondering how you would see this one. As usual... clearly. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: hesperis Date: 16 Apr 01 - 10:09 PM I can understand how a parent could sell a child. If you really put yourself in that poor person's frame of mind, it becomes all-too easy. But then, I've been on welfare, too. The thing I don't understand is when rich people don't understand why some people don't "just get a job". Hello, not everyone in this world was born to people who can afford to give a damn, whether emotionally or monetarily. Horrible, but true. |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: Kim C Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:11 AM This morning on Paul Harvey I heard that the report was a false alarm and that there were no unaccompanied children on board the ship. But how can we be sure? |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Apr 01 - 10:21 AM Where someone says "people whose ancestors were stolen from Africa" - I would correct to "people some of whose ancestors were stolen" ... I am daily reminded of my lack of understanding of this, which might be thread creep here: Why do so many "black" Americans deny their (partial) white ancestry? Why are they only seen, why do they only see themselves, as having only African ancestry, even when the contributions of that part are visibly minor? End of creep. |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: Davie K Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:07 AM And to make a more Mudcat-friendly point, you may like to read the account of Scots children sold into slavery (officially, into indentured service) in the 18th century, which I typed up on my webspace recently - it is from Buchan's Songs and Ballads of North East Scotland, 1828 edition, which I found a couple of months back in one of my regular s/h book haunts. http://www.maxwellplace.demon.co.uk/pandemonium/scotslaves.html To introduce this, though with no tune, we have Buchan's collected words for The Virginian Maid's Lament - you might think this would be by a black slave, but no such thing - it is the lament of a Scottish, female slave on a Virginia plantation-O. Anyone with a tune for this, please mail me! david@maxwellplace.demon.co.uk The African slave trade is simply a remnant of a worldwide custom, regpugnant though it may be to the West. I don't know enough about the terms and conditions, or behaviour of the buyers, to comment. Study a bit of mediaeval European history, and pretty well everything else from Roman and Greek to fairly modern Arabic, and you may conclude that WE are the odd ones out. http://www.mp3.com/DavidKilpatrick |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: Dave the Gnome Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:19 AM Worries me no end that people will do this to each other. I don't have many answers I'm afraid but it poses a whole bag full of new questions. Would the slave trade still exist if Africa was still 'colonised' by European countries who have now abolished slavery? Have the African countries just substituted one form of oppresion with another? Did the European occupation of vast tracts of Africa start the slave trade, or had it always occured? If we now interfere with another culture are we risking going back to Imperialism - British, American or that of any other country? What do we risk if we do interfere? - Remember how the USA wanted the Russians out of Afganistan and now are outraged at what the Taliban are doing? To my mind education is the best way forward. Teach the traders that establishing proper employment agencies is a better way. Teach the slave owners that they will get much better vaue out of free people. Teach the parents that once the money from selling their children is gone they will have neither child or money. But, most importantly, teach the children everything! It will take time but we will get there eventualy. Hmmm - rant off - better get back to work myself before I get sold! Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: SINSULL Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:41 AM I saw a nightmare documentary about Irish girls deemed incorrigible and forced to work in convents as virtual slaves. Another was about post war English orphans and supposed orphans who were sent to Australia under similar circumstances and forced to work without pay for their food and board - also slavery by any normal standards. Children are at the mercy of the adults who "own" them. In NYC alone, every week there appears a horror story of children forced to deal drugs or prostitute themselves for their parent's drugs. Others are abused, neglected, even raped by the adults who often are paid by the city to protect them. I don't believe that child enslavement is confined to Africa or even undeveloped nations. Physician, heal thyself. |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Apr 01 - 11:55 AM The following is from the song challenge thread referenced above. ~S~
Subject: RE: Unofficial Song Challenge! ENSLAVED KIDS Maybe we should save these songs for the next incident, with better documentation that "slavery" is involved. No Child Slaves Are Found as Ship Reaches Benin By REUTERS COTONOU, Benin, Tuesday, April 17 S A ship at the center of an international hunt for scores of suspected child slaves arrived here early today, but with no more than a few children, accompanied by their mothers, on board. Benin sparked the search for the Nigerian-registered ship Etireno last week when it alerted the world that it believed that the vessel was carrying 180 children, sold by poor families to work for nothing in oil-rich Gabon. Benin's social protection minister, Ramatou Baba Moussa, suggested that there might have been a mix-up between the Etireno and another Nigerian ship spotted off Equatorial Guinea, which might be carrying Nigerian minors caught up in the illegal trade. She gave no details of the possible second ship. She told reporters on board the Etireno that there were 139 passengers on the ship, of whom 7 were children. She added that she was relieved not to discover child slaves. "There was a situation, and we had to take action," she said. "The affair is over. I don't deny that Benin is part of the traffic in children, and the government will do all it can to beat it." No move was made to arrest or question any of the ship's crew. There was no sign of the Benin businessman Stanislas Abadtan or at least two other people against whom international arrest warrants were issued in connection with the trade. Most passengers did not look to be in poor health and there was little for Red Cross workers to do. The United Nations Children's Fund had set up a receiving center in Cotonou, expecting to care for a much larger number of children after a 1,250-mile journey. The ship left Cotonou on March 30 for Libreville, in Gabon, but was turned back by the authorities there. Many passengers recounted how the ship was turned away, not because it had child slaves aboard but because it was carrying illegal immigrants seeking relative riches in an impoverished region. "When we got to Libreville, some people tried to go ashore in small boats, but when they reached the beach they were attacked by robbers," said Mamadou Fall, a Senegalese businessman among the passengers. "When the robbers found they had no money, they called the police. "Because they had no papers, the police put them all back on board the boat and said it had to leave," Mr. Fall said. Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company | Privacy Information
Subject: RE: Unofficial Song Challenge! ENSLAVED KIDS Maybe we should save these songs for the next incident... Obviously it is a relief to know there may have been some confusion over this story. But it sounds to me like there is no need to wait for a "next incident"... It sounds like it is an ongoing incident of greater proportions than many of us knew. It puts me in mind of "The Water is Wide"... thinking of all that can be happening on our seas that we here in our civilized, snug spots never have to think about. I hope the songs keep coming in. This story should not go away; it should broaden to be increasingly detailed. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Apr 01 - 05:58 PM Here's another post I made in that thread, which is better here, and it has a useful link in it.
As Susan said - there's no question about there being a system of child (and other) slavery on some of the cocoa plantations, and children being ferried around between various places in West Africa.
The question of whether they are going to be abe to pin anything on the people running this particular ship on this particular occasion is a very secondary matter.
The crucial quote is that one from the Benin minister: "I don't deny that Benin is part of the traffic in children".
I was pleased to see that Cadbury, the chocolate people, have called for effective action against slavery in the cocoa and chocolate plantations etc. Cynically one might say they are a bit worried about possible boycotts, and they want to make it clear that in this respect their company has clean hands. But it's a good practical development, which could achieve something.
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: Chicken Charlie Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:11 PM Two points-- First, a little deep background. Cadbury's has been saying since 1910 or so that everybody else's chocolate is produced by slaves. They used this to browbeat all the WASP's into buying their own Protestant (Quaker, actually)-blest stuff instead of that dirty Spanish Papist slave chocolate from Fernando Po, or wherever the Dons had their chocolate plantations. I gather from the above posts that Cadbury's still thinks it can get mileage out of that. Since Cadbury's tried to screw the independent growers just as badly, I would really like to see some objective [where, in this world?] comparisons of folks in Cadbury's employ vs. those elsewhere. Not that I'm cynical or anything. Second, and I shouldn't do this because #1 was entirely true, and I'm only asking for trouble: Were those kids really slaves, or were they migrating somewhere in search of States' Rights? I'm already sorry I asked that. :) Chicken Charlie |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:36 PM I was looking back up the thread, and saw Davie K's post about slavery, pointing out that slavery of one sort or another has existed in all kinds of societies and places.
Which is true - but it's worth remembering that the form of chattel slavery developed especially in North America and the West Indies was probably the most grotesque and repulsive form of slavery that this planet has ever known, in which the very humanity of the people enslaved was often denied.
Typically it's the "advanced" society that came up with the worst version. (As has happened in other contexts - cf Nazi Germany.)
As for Chicken Charlie's last post - the fact that someone's been saying something since 1910 doesn't mean it is not true. |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: Charley Noble Date: 18 Apr 01 - 07:40 PM By posting the above Reuters story, I did not mean to undercut just concern for exploited young children in Africa or whatever "here" you live in. What I was attempting to do is present a published story in a reputable (well, sometimes at least) newspaper that was at variance with many of the other "news stories" that people had been passing around to one another and which are apparently inaccurate. I can hardly wait for the follow-up stories. |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:52 PM Charley, I don't think anyone interpreted your post otherwise... and I also do not think there is anything about any of this that is easy to think about, talk about, or hear someone else accurately about. I was a bit concerned that people would drop their interest, in the feeling that now we don't really "have" to think about this... not that you had "caused" that, but that it could be an unsurprising reaction on the part of many. You know-- "Oh, good, everything is fine, zzzz....." So if I spoke tartly it was to head that off, not to aim it at you. I welcome anything you can contribute that can bring additional clarity to what we are discussing. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Apr 01 - 09:23 AM Thanks, Susan. I do have a tendency, probably shared with others here, to post "Hey, look what I've found" as quickly as I can. Having worked in the Peace Corps in Ethiopia for 3 yars, I'm well aware that this story and related stories from other parts of the world need as much attention as they can get, but we also need to be sceptical of reports we find in the media until there is at least some "independent" verification. Of course, I do remember a while back that alarming "news story" about the Japanese trawler sunk by a cow that fell from the sky... |
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Subject: RE: Children Sold into Slavery at Sea From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:15 PM Well, Charley, I'd have had to be in one of my sillier moods not to agree, since I started the thread asking for info. Peace Corps huh. Red Cross three years here. What a view THAT give you of our world, eh? ~S~ |
