BS: New Rules for the Patriotic

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Genie
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:15 PM

Rebel, I applaud most of what you say. Still, willingness of soldiers to fight and die for their country will not make that country free or great
if the country's laws do not allow freedom or greatness. [The ones who flew the planes into the towers were willing to die for their beliefs, too!]

I am very troubled when I sometimes see the same people waving the flag (literally and/or figuratively) while at the same time calling for abandoning the Bill of Rights.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:32 PM

One can contribute to a society without serving in the armed forces. All should be able to maximize their contribution but doing what they do best. But I still believe the privledge of voting should be earned so that it is appreciated. Immigrants have to pass a citizenship test, why not people born here?

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM

Geeziz...........Some of y'all are reading stuff into this that ain't there!

It's about the folks who really could care less until something big happens. I have neighbors that I'm sure have no idea which hemisphere they live in, let alone where Afghanistan is! Some never vote but are willing and ready to complain about how the "government" (local, state, national) is run. AND, if you'll walk outside with me, I'll show you their homes....and all of them have a flag hung out! This is about bombast and bragging and false pride. I don't mean they shouldn't, but it would be nice to know they actually thought first about doing the everyday things that are expected of us.

Ever been to a sporting event where the loudest asshole in the place has no knowledge of the game? Same thing. Try to lighten up a little.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Rebel135
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:41 AM

Genie states.

I am very troubled when I sometimes see the same people waving the flag (literally and/or figuratively) while at the same time calling for abandoning the Bill of Rights.

To reply, I would agree with you, intelligent Americans understand basic principles of America rest on the guarantees of freedoms for everybody, even the "pinkos" fellow travelers, peaceniks and the anarachists. I actually heard somebody use the word peacenik the other day! Where there is no living Constitution and defense of freedoms, there will you see tyranny?

Jack states. One can contribute to a society without serving in the armed forces. All should be able to maximize their contribution but doing what they do best. But I still believe the privilege of voting should be earned so that it is appreciated. Immigrants have to pass a citizenship test, why not people born here? To reply.

Jack, lets put this point into words of the International. The short form of this is of course is the classic and indisputable truth. "To each according to their needs to each according to their abilities.

I wholeheartedly disagree, freedom and the right to vote is the bedrock of our society. Like any other freedom, with my Army service I have earned the right not to vote, should I chose to, what about you? . Do you know how to service a 50-caliber machinegun? You seem to disregard the value and of putting your life on the line for your fellow citizens.

As for immigrants, quite frequently they now start their life in the United States by violating the very laws they would claim later to hold so dear.

In much of the cases, if you're a thugs or an angel, you can get into this country, or Canada for that matter,(or Australia), by just getting here. Later just get a good lawyer. (Remember the immigrant ship that rammed San Francisco and everybody jumped out.) It was about two year ago.

As to passing a test to be an American, if you want I think I can find my Alabama Voters Registration Test. A remnant of the good old days when we could make sure only the right people voted. It takes somebody with about a Masters in Political Science to have a change at passing it.

Jack you talk as if you think only the educated should vote. Are you a Conservative Republican?

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Melani
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:52 PM

What Spaw said.

Jack the Sailor, I agree with your comment about individuals, not ancestry. I just read in this morning's paper that a Sikh organization showed up for a memorial service for Californians killed on 9/11 wearing solid red, white or blue turbans. It seems like a nice thing to do, underlining diversity, but may also have been inspired by fear.

The bombing happened to begin on my birthday. That wasn't really the present I had in mind. I celebrated my birthday Monday night with dinner in an Afghani restaurant. They had an American flag in the window--partly sentiment, I'm sure, and also partly self-preservation, to try to fend off idiots. Inside, as an obviously longtime part of their regular decor, they had a poster that said "Free Afghanistan." I mean, I figured they were here for a reason, and not back home hanging out with the Taliban.

By the way, it was about the best meal I've had in 20 years. The Helmand, on Broadway, if you're in San Francisco. Expensive, but worth every penny!

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:03 PM

For the record: from each according to his abilities

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:26 PM

Rebel135

Nice rhetoric, not based in reality of 2001 though, What percentage of the armed forces puts their lives on the line? It's a lot safer to be a cook on the Enterprize or an aircraft mechanic than it is to drive to my job. I don't know how to service a 50 caliber machine gun but I could probably run the email system for the Pentagon. Would you say that skill is less valuable? Even in war? The Army is important, it is not the only thing that is important.

I'm economically conservative but I see the value of social programs. I really don't like political labels. I like to make my mind up issue by issue. I'm Not in any way a Republican. I see your point about voter registration being open to abuse. Especially in the US where elections officials are elected and beholden to one party or another. But uneducated voter are open to exploitation by both sides. Education is a key to successful democracy.

You know, I know lots of immigrants, not one of whom broke the law upon entering the country. Who are the immigrants of which you speak? I think by far the majority are angels, test or not.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 07:28 PM

Just a brief bit on definitions: Arabs are natives of the Arabian peninnsula (or their descendents, regardless of nationality). Afganis are not Arabs, nor are Iranians. Arabs can be Moslim, Christian or Jewish. Moslims/Muslims can be of any ethnicity or nationality. Sikhs are neither Arab nor Moslim.

BTW, I believe I read somewhere that naturalized citizens of the US have a lower per-capita crime rate than the native-born, but I'll be darned if I can find the source of that statistic.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Troll
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:37 PM

Yes Jack, it probably is safer on the Enterprise than in your car.(BG)
But, as you drive your car to work, even in wartime, you don't have to worry about torpedos, or bombers or any of that. The cook on the Big E will be on a gunmount when the enemy planes come and the aircraft mec will be on a damage control team and their lives will damn sure be on the line.
It's all important but it all exists to get that man up to the line as quickly as possible, as well equiped as possible, and get him back safely.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 10:40 AM

Yes it is important. But in 2001, it is hardly putting one's life on the line. Any more than driving to work or driving to to do volenteer work is putting one's life on the line for one's country. When was the last time someone was injured by enemy fire on a carrier? 1945?

Things have changed. In this war the safest place to be is on a carrier or military base. I have a lot of respect for the ideas Robert Heinlein put accross in "Starship Troopers" and other such books. But I think those ideas were better suited to the 40's 50's & 60's. In today's time of smart weapons, bombers dropping precision armaments from 50,000 feet, cruise missles, unmanned surveilence drones etc. Most armed service personnel are well away from the danger, working consoles doing maintenence and pressing buttons. In light of that, the contribution of the cop who keeps order the flight attendant who flies in spite of fear, or the worker who pays taxes to pay for these fantastic weapons becomes pretty much as important as the serviceman.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Rebel135
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:42 AM

Jack,

Being in the Navy is danger iteself. 10-20% of all the flyers in the US Navy don't make it to retirement, they crash and die.

Read the book The Right Stuff the begining section tells of the hazards of pilots.

As to normal sailors, My dad almost died three times when he was in the Navy. Ok it was World War II but what really happend was that my dad left a patrol ship on the Oregon coast. He left all his valuables with a buddy and went to a new assignement. A week later the ship went down in a storm and everybody died. It turned turtle and now rest off the Oregon coast.

Another time, he was in the fantale of the USS Biloxi? and he and a buddy were talking and when the saw a torpedo heading for where they were standing. They yelled to the bridge and got the ship turned in time. If they had not seen the danger, he said it would have killed them.

Another time he was ordered to leave Alaska. He gave up his seat to a Navy Commander. The plane went down and everybody died. It was storming in Alaska and he said that the plane he took to get out of Alaska set down 6 times. He never would fly again.

Now in the real world. My friend Curts nephew, Caleb was on the USS Cole when it was attacked in Aden. He was the first diver down to try to rescue his friends who were killed.

In the real world, in the Army, things happen and people die.

Many serviceman are not in harms way, but others are.

As to the immigrants, don't live in the West do you. Politicians from Mexico came to the Yakima Valley last year to campaign for election. You see amoung the thousands or millions of illegal aliens, so many are here that the policticans are follwing the voters.

In the agriculure and forrest service work, ie farming or planting trees, etc large percentages are illegal.

Its not worthwhile to go on, this is just one issue.

My office is filled with American flags. Before September 11, the only person who had an American Flag up is? take one guess. I'm embarrased now to have it up now because it seems like, I'm one of the crowd part of the temporary hysteria.?

Some of us just try to do our best, I'm in this for the long haul.

Wes Prichard