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BS: Health care or Homeland security?

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Donuel 27 Sep 02 - 09:17 PM
Bobert 27 Sep 02 - 09:30 PM
mack/misophist 27 Sep 02 - 10:14 PM
Bobert 27 Sep 02 - 10:26 PM
katlaughing 27 Sep 02 - 11:37 PM
wysiwyg 27 Sep 02 - 11:39 PM
DougR 27 Sep 02 - 11:44 PM
GUEST 28 Sep 02 - 01:00 AM
DougR 28 Sep 02 - 02:09 AM
Troll 28 Sep 02 - 03:54 AM
Donuel 28 Sep 02 - 09:47 AM
mack/misophist 28 Sep 02 - 11:43 AM
mg 28 Sep 02 - 04:31 PM
katlaughing 28 Sep 02 - 06:22 PM
Bobert 28 Sep 02 - 06:50 PM
Socorro 28 Sep 02 - 08:50 PM
Bobert 28 Sep 02 - 09:32 PM
katlaughing 14 Nov 02 - 05:12 PM
GUEST 14 Nov 02 - 06:30 PM
GUEST 14 Nov 02 - 07:31 PM
DougR 14 Nov 02 - 10:20 PM
mg 14 Nov 02 - 11:59 PM

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Subject: Health care or Homeland security?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 09:17 PM

I had a random thought along the line of a cost benefit analysis and wondered which would save more lives...Homeland Security or National Health Care?

Which would cost more money? Many arguments can be waged for one or the other, heaven knows a terrorist bombing of one or two nuke plants could clear out much of the east coast. (not that we would ever take the prudent action of taking them off line)

Health is either on the rocks or is driving the consumer on the rocks when they try to be covered for what they pay for.

Here is a take on the subject along artistic lines in verse and pictures I did yesterday.

He remembered
where to go.
He had his umbrella,
keys and wallet.

He remembered exactly
what to order.
He remembers why
he drinks to forget.

He could be full of anger
or wallow in failure.
When he thinks of his little girl
he sinks in regret.

By the third drink
the same old waking nightmare
swirls as he stares in his glass,
her eyes open wide in the casket.

Daddy why can't I pay
for my treatment
after I grow up
and get a job?


ON THE ROCKS 1

ON THE ROCKS 2


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 09:30 PM

Danged, Donuel! There you go talking that commie socialism. Hey, don't you know what made and keeps America great? It's workers knowin' there place in life, that's what. Heck, you give 'em real health care then next thing they'll want is to move into your house on the *other, other* side of town, and sit around your swimming pool. You want that? Man, what got into you?

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:14 PM

I had a long talk with my doctor about this a few years back. He mentioned a problem I couldn't answer. Can anyone here solve this situation? He said that the problem isn't treatment but the level of treatment. There are humdreds of situations where the best care of the 50's and 60's MIGHT be good enough to handle the situation but the best care of the 90's and 00's would bankrupt the country. I said I would be content with the best care of the 60's, if it were free and that, having spent time in hospital wards, I preferred them to semi-private rooms. My doctor responded that I was a freak, albeit a nice one, and that none of his other patients felt that way. What say the people here? Note that you MIGHT be agreeing to die without protest if the level of treatment wasn't high enough to save you.


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:26 PM

I, for one, believe that if the US didn't have this big old huff-n-puff defense bill to pay that we could afford every citizen state of the arts health care. It's just where society putts its values. Right now, the military industrial complex has us by the ___________'s. If you find other ways that are less expensive to resolve conflict then, bang, health care for all, with change to boot. It;s just a matter of choices, and right now the working class has few....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 11:37 PM

Donuel, thanks. When I first heard the term "Homeland Security" I thought if they really meant it then it WOULD mean secure in health care, education, and having a home. That's what it means to me.

The drug companies and insurance companies are a big stumbling block also, Bobert. It behooves their coffers to prevent universal health care of any kind.

Interesting question, misophist. The more I go with Traditional Chinese Medicine, the more I like and believe in it, but I have to say, based on the miraculous surgery which has kept Spaw among us, I would want as much as possible, if it included quality of life, also.

kat


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 11:39 PM

Well, Donuel, I am sure we can solve that here too.

Pardon my PMS.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: DougR
Date: 27 Sep 02 - 11:44 PM

If the homeland is not secure, Donuel, and some sneaky terrorist sets off a bunch of atomic bombs, or lets loose smallpox or some other dread disease, or chemical or biological weapon, there will be little need for healthcare.

I'd say Homeland Security comes first myself.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 01:00 AM

There will be NO ONE to service your F-ing ass....if our homelands are not secure.

You are a kook.


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: DougR
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 02:09 AM

Well, now GUEST, although I have to agree with you, surely you could find a way to express yourself in a less challenging way. Have a bad week?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: Troll
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 03:54 AM

It's a question of do we want a fence on the cilff, or an ambulance down in the valley?
Do any of you seriously believe that if our country were under the domination of a foreign government that THEY would provide anything but minimal health care for anyone?
Or should we relax, let people like Saddam do whatever he wants in the middle-east, go isolationist and take care of only our own?
I'm not trying to be sarcastic or funny; these are very real concerns and they deserve more than knee-jerk answers. Just what level of security and what level of health care would people be satisfied with?

troll


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 09:47 AM

With defense at 52% of our descretionary budget I assume there is no money left for universal health care. Bush today did support providing illegal aliens with health care for their fetus (unborn babies). As demographics change I suspect the Rep. party has thier eye on the hispanic/latino vote.

Saving American lives was the point here. In any war there are more casualties from disease than bullets. Now the line has been blurred with intentional bio war products. Actually the line has been blurred for some time.



As for the more vulgar guests here, you may find your picture and tactics HERE


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 11:43 AM

Bobert:

To give you an example of what I mean, there was a place with the name Boston Neonate Emergency Clinic. The detail may be wrong, but the gist is correct. It was estableshed with a federal grant to see how well the idea would work.They took the sickest neonates in the area and made them live. No questions, no budget. Their median case cost about 1/4 million and one went as high as 4 million. Everyone loved the work they were doing but the clinic closed early (that incarnation, there may be a later, lesser one) because no one could afford it.

Extend this level of care (assuming the facilities were availqble, they aren't) to ALL medical conditions and the country would be bankrupt in a year. Or less.


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: mg
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:31 PM

I don't know the answer. Some things are working and should be kept. There are some things I wouldn't fund: prologed fertility treatments especially those likely to result in births of ;more than triplets say. Expensive procedures at the end of a natural lifespan. Overmedication of people in general. Providing people with wrong information about preventive health care (read Dr. Schwarzbein on internet about diabetes information) that leads to all sorts of people on insulin and drugs forever...Some legislator has suggested mandatory health insurance like mandatory car insurance. There are people, and I am related to at least one, who refuse to get insurance when they could afford it. That is plain irresponsible. I am for free contraception clinics and free clinics for low income people. Free vaccinations etc. I don't mind paying much higher taxes for more insurance coverage but I don't think the government should take over health care for the general public. I certainly think broken bones, baby delivery, tb, things like that should be available to everyone. Hospice care at the end with pain care. Questions remain about very expensive procedures..heart transplants etc. I can't say.

I think fortunately that we have a lot of research that has reached the general public but not the medical profession yet and when it does, Kitty bar the door because heart disease, diabetes, autoimmune diseases and probably cancer will rocket downward. We will very soon have a much healthier population. Watch and see. Also those full body scans are only about $800 now. That is going to catch a lot of stuff early.

mg


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 06:22 PM

Good points, Mary.

Other countries manage some sort of home defence AND universal health care. I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive. In most "either/or" situations there is always at least a third alternative, if not more.


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 06:50 PM

Well, a good start would be a "Patient's Bill of Rights". I pay close to $800 a month for a PPO policy that can be flat out cancelled, at the option of the the company, ahhhh, should I get sick. Hmmmmmmmm? Hey, I don't mind paying this high preminum if I have guarenteed coverage but to know that getting real sick and not having any coverage or having the PPO tell me that I have to accept a lowere level of care... stinks. Americans are paying thru the nose for HMO's and PPO's and go to just about any hospital and see what the average working class sick person gets. My dad worked unti he was 77 years old and paid taxes on that income. And he lives in the wealtiest county in the US and when he got sick and needed medical care, he waited 4 days in the emergency room on a gurney before getting a bed. And folks were parked in halls with IV's and well, made this ol' hillbilly wonder what its like in other hospitals in other ares.

And how about "wellness care". Most plans either don't offer it or charge even more for it. Like someone said. Fence on the cliff or ambulance at the bottom. Good point, BTW.

And lastly, how many PPO and HMO companies you see going under? Hmmmmmm? That's maybe the most important question of them all. Nevermind...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: Socorro
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 08:50 PM

I won't address "homeland security" because I don't really have anything worth listening to re:that. My mind & heart make me pacifist, yet I have noticed very strong, & very physical self-defense-instincts in me, which may or may not be my "lower self" – I just don't know. However, I have a lot of experience in the Health-Care-System of the U.S. I spent 20 yrs as an RN, first in hospitals, then in Home Health as Case Manager, so I'm going to contribute a few thoughts: 1. "Fee-for-Service" (the system which preceded "Managed Care") was problematic, because there was nothing to set a ceiling on expenditures, for those who had health insurance. 2. "Managed Care" provided problems for providers (eg doctors, nurses in independent practice) – also hospitals & other institutions, but institutions don't have consciences, and cannot empathize with others' suffering, so they are in a different category. One major problem was: Provider believes certain treatments are appropriate. Insurer refuses to pay. Provider tells insurance company (to paraphrase) "How can you bastards refuse to pay for this obviously needed treatment?" Insurance company, "Well, if your conscience is so delicate, go ahead & provide the treatment, but we won't pay for it". 3. So-called "rationing". In the U.S. now, the only persons who have "socialized" medical care (that I can think of now) are all our congresspeople & their families, and the military. The rest of us participate in the "Free Market", which may work well when you're young & healthy – but try wrangling with an insurance company when you're in pain, old, or very ill. The deck is stacked against you, & it is truly kicking a person who is down.

That said, I know that, being practical, rationing is necessary, as no entity could provide every treatment for every person. Somehow our society will have to decide what care we will provide "socially". I would start with ex-Surgeon General Everett Koop's proposal that every citizen should have emergency, preventive, and catastrophic care covered. Beyond that, the state of Oregon made an attempt to face the issue head-on, when they devised a plan for allotting their Medicaid budget. They produced a system which used a panel of experts to rate treatments on a cost/benefit basis, from most beneficial/lowest cost, to the opposite. When they knew their annual budget, the plan was to draw a line at the place in the list, where the money ran out, and not provide anything below that line. (To vastly over-simplify). I saw this as a valuable exercise in facing reality, but the 1st President Bush over-rode the state's plan, so we lost a chance to start the societal debate. I may be optimistic to believe that conscious decision would be preferable to what we have now, but i would personally appreciate seeing what our society really does believe about the rights of a person to health care (the limits, who qualifies & why...). Now, it's more or less survival of the fittest, which is too like a jungle for my particular taste.


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Subject: RE: Health care or Homeland security?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Sep 02 - 09:32 PM

Thanks, Socorro, for your very thoughtful post. I'd just comment on one aspect of it which I am sure you will relate to and that is the area of the Oregon plan that dealth with "catastophic care". This is what keeps most Americans paying $800 a month and getting nothing back. I am probably very typical in that I spend an average of $10,000 a year to a PPO and may get back $1000 at the most. So why do I do this. Because I am, like most Americans, afraid that either my wife or myself will get sick enough to not want to loose everything we've worked all of our lives to have. But, hey, with the PPO folks being able to wheel and deal with treatment s and their ability to just say no or cancell me, something ain't right.

Yeah, if we had a more comassionate system of health care it might just mean that we were a more compassionate nation and inj being a more comapssionate nation I am suggesting that maybe we wouldn't be so worried about homeland security. See, when you go messin' with not only your own folks but the folks in other countries, you're gonna need a lot of folks who answer to the name Bubba and can shoot a rifle...

End of Bobert's latest rant...


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Subject: RE: BS: Health care or Homeland security?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:12 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: BS: Health care or Homeland security?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 06:30 PM

Every one of us is now under Homeland Security surveilance.

wdyat24


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Subject: RE: BS: Health care or Homeland security?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 07:31 PM

and we're still getting screwed when it comes to health care...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Health care or Homeland security?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 10:20 PM

Hey kat! Way to go! Refresh a troll thread!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Health care or Homeland security?
From: mg
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:59 PM

time for a new paridigm. How about both. How about a renewed Public Health system with a series of clinics with sliding scales for starters, many located near emergency rooms near hospitals so people don't go to er for routine medical care. How about free or pretty cheap education for people going into public health (as there is/was in some cases already). There are a lot of things we could do...we could teach kids in high school much more medical care for example , for the same price as teaching them very little...we could train prisoners who are not violent and give them day work release to clean up public health hazards..there are a lot of things we can do. Just have to think of them first.

mg


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Mudcat time: 18 May 6:09 AM EDT

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