Knife at Texas School Issue

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:10 PM

It's over but not for pedants, Wesley.

"designed to cut or stab another by being thrown,"

One of the rules of statutory interpretation is an assumption that the legislators are competent enough to not be redundant. In other words, if words are used, they are presumed to have an intended meaning. Presumably the omitted language before the above excerpt refers to a knife. All knives are designed to cut. Using this rule, a violation requires that he have brought a knife that was designed to cut another, and not just capable of cutting another, or designed to cut anything. (In other words, it would be an improper interpretation to conclude that the statute (ignoring stabbing and throwing), could be interpreted as "[a knife] designed to cut.") Bread knives are not included within this staute as it has been quoted.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:24 PM

from Thursday's Dallas newspaper (sorry if there are goofy breaks): "Student expelled for bread knife to return to class

03/21/2002

By LORI PRICE / The Dallas Morning News

Taylor Hess, an honors student at L.D. Bell High School in Hurst who was expelled earlier this month after school officials found a bread knife in the bed of his pickup, will return to school Friday.

In lieu of an appeal hearing regarding the disciplinary matter and the fate of Taylor, 16, Hurst-Euless-Bedford school officials said Thursday that they will uphold the mandatory expulsion handed down March 4, but will reduce the length of the expulsion to the amount of time the student has already spent in the district's disciplinary alternative education program.

Taylor spent five days in the program. His original punishment was set for one calendar year in the Tarrant County Juvenile Justice Alternative Education Program.

District officials said the expulsion will not appear on Taylor's permanent record.

The district had planned to make the recommendation for the reduced expulsion time at a Thursday hearing, but came to an agreement with the Hess family and their attorney's prior to the scheduled time of the hearing.

"The motivation of the district in this student discipline matter involving Taylor Hess is, and always has been, to provide a safe school environment for all the district's students," said Gene Buinger, H-E-B schools superintendent. "The Hess family agrees with the district's motivation to keep schools safe and appreciates the amicable resolution of Taylor's discipline matter."

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: SharonA
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 05:19 PM

I had written to the Dallas Morning News, and received this reply via e-mail:

"...Confusion about "butter knife" vs. "bread knife" is something we heard a lot. This non-serrated knife was 10.5 inches long, it had a wooden handle but with a rounded edge at the tip. Butter knives, I have come to know, are either very short knives (often placed beyond the plate in a place setting) or a wide knife with a crook handle used with a butter dish to dollop the butter on to a plate. We originally thought the knife was more like a dinner knife -- since most of us had never seen a non-serrated bread knife before -- so the reporter went back to the police department to get a complete description!

"In any case, today's news (on DallasNews.com) shows the school district came to its senses and put the honor student back into class today. Thanks to the help -- we'd like to think -- of several of our letter writers!"

Letters Editor, The Dallas Morning News

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 05:36 PM

Well at least somebody showed some common sense!

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 05:46 PM

Guest at 3:24 refers to the students "Permanent Record". Has anyone ever seen their "Permanent Record" ? Ever had that dreaded "Permanent Record" come back to haunt them at a job interview or when they were trying to get a loan?? That was the biggest fake out that our schools ever held over our heads.

Just imagine - you're trying to get a job when the guy says "I'd like to hire you buddy - but I've been reading your Permanent Record......"

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 06:38 PM

McGrath, just a note to say that what I said about Canada is limited to my experience in Calgary. Other jurisdictions set their own rules; there is no Canadian "standard."
I am glad that the Dallas case is settled.

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 08:49 AM

Interesting Wesley........I actually did have a company request complete files from both high school and college, both transcripts and any other "information still on file." This was a very conservative and somewhat staid Fortune 500. I had been hired, but this information was mandatory as a condition of employment which I found odd but not out of character for this company. I think it was more a case of checking to see if I had lied or something.

But I do agree, that "Permanent Record" thing was a huge club that school officials drug out all the time. Seems to still be popular. Several of the teachers at a school where I taught used it regularly.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:14 AM

"I was only obeying orders" is no defence for doing something you know to be unjust.

That's exactly the point where you still got it wrong, McGrath. You have to differentiate between 'may not' and 'must not' in following rules and orders. If someone is given the order to do something which is merely 'unjust' (s)he may not follow that order without being punished for that but also cannot be punished for following it.

If the order is to do something that is a crime you must not follow that order and can be punished for following it (all according to the Nuremberg principles).

In this case, the treatment of the student was injust but was not a crime and therefore "I am just following the rules" is a valid defense in the sense of the Nuremburg principles. Whatever you may think of these persons they cannot be punished for following the rules.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: kendall
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 08:04 PM

Am I to understand that the boy was an honor roll student, so, he should be excused?

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 08:14 PM

Hi Jed, I'm sorry that your state (home of the toxic texan) has shamed themselves & you.
Knee JERK reactions & responses to situations that aren't to be bothered with make it very easy not to have to handle people on a human/humane level according to each case. Some people love to have their hands tied so they can go through life blind, dumb & in total unaware bliss of any body or thing around them.
IMHO the school district did not come to their senses, they bailed themselves out of a situation as best they could with trying to save as much face as possible (& the cost of national embrassement not to say the legal expendures & award payments if found to be the simpletons they apear to be) without the decency to admit how bad their aim was when they shot from the hip. It should have cost them their right to ever hold a place of authority unless it comes to judge & sentence themselves.
Barry

Subject: RE: Knife at Texas School Issue
From: Melani
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 10:42 PM

Here in beautiful Oakland, CA, a similar case occurred when an elementary school girl (8 or 10, I forget) accidentally grabbed her mother's lunch bag, which contained a knife for cutting fruit. When she discovered it at lunchtime, she took it to her teacher and explained the mistake, and was expelled. I believe her mother sued, or threatened to.