Help! Open Stage and C**p performers

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Mudlark
Date: 04 Jul 02 - 02:10 AM

I think the untried, timid, uncertain people who hope one day to become better musicians should be given a lot of encouragement and a very small spot until improvement develops. For the brash and bad, sometimes The Hook is the only thing they understand.

I used to do open mike nights at a folk club in LA. The MC chose the order of the acts by having us pick numbers out of a hat. We were all allowed 3 songs/15 minutes. But no second turns if the MC didn't deem a would-be musician worthy of it. He was not particularly kind or tactful about it, just very matter of fact. It was his call.

And lets's face it...most people who love music and want the thrill of performing it KNOW, at least to some extent, how they measure up against the rest of the performers. The brash egomaniacs don't know and don't care...music is not why they are on the stage anyway.

Thanks to all who do this. It must be a largely thankless task, but it provides a wonderful opportunity for real, but untried musicians to get their sea legs. Sounds like you've paid your dues with this, Guest Quandry...maybe a rest would do you good, and save you from total burnout with the music as well as the MC'ing.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,Quandary
Date: 04 Jul 02 - 01:33 PM

Will try and take this all in (offline :)

Yep ... burn out is rapidly approaching - with musicians now argueing the toss about the size font I've used for publicising them compared to another group which is not to say that I am favouring one act over another (Aaaagh!) I'M IN CHARGE! -I keep trying to convince myself :)

Tomorrow is our next night - hem, maybe I'll take a moment, imbibe all this advice and report back on Saturday

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 04 Jul 02 - 09:14 PM

Good luck, Quandary, and thanks for raising a question many of us ponder over. The advice in this thread (and the tactful and friendly manner it which it is advanced) is IMHO first-rate: I'm going to print it out and hand it round the Board of our folk song society, because I think it will help us address problems we've had for many years in our come-all-ye nights.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: paddymac
Date: 04 Jul 02 - 11:03 PM

I happened to drop in on an open-mic night the other night that I hadn't been to in several months. I really went for a pint, and then realized the session was on in the back room. I walked in the door and saw a character on stage whom I remembered as awful - one atonal note and one chord on his guitar - and turned to walk out. I spied a friend I wanted to chat with and went over and sat down. Much as I tried not to listen, I became transfixed with the guy on stage. I couldn't believe it was the same guy. He isn't ready for prime time, but he would be a welcome addition to most any session in town. Just reminded me how rewarding it can be to give someone an opportunity and a little encouragement.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: musicmick
Date: 04 Jul 02 - 11:53 PM

All this "give 'em all an opportunity" talk is nice sounding but, if you want to hold an audience, you have to have some kind of quality control. You do purport to be presenting an entertaining evening, for which you are charging a real price of admission. You must decide where your responsibility lies. If your open mike is a training session for undeveloped acts, for whom you provide an audience, then charge the performers and let the audience in free. This is not sophistry. This is exactly what major showcases do, they charge the performers for a place on their stage and the performers are happy to pay. The presenters (club owners, program chairs, recording companies, etc.) are invited guests. It is, after all, their favor that the artists are trying to win. I have some experience in this area. For thirty years, I ran the Festival Campfire at the Philadelphia Folk Fest. The performers ranged in expertise from novice to touring professional (occasionally a singer came over to the campfire after their set on the main stage. Michael Cooney was a frequent drop-in and Susan Werner and Tom Paxton stopped by to spice things up) I was careful to prescreen my singers as I had been burned too often by sincere but tedious tyros who sang on and on and on until My audience was torn between lynching and wholesale desertion. Eventually, we solved our problem by turning the evening into a contest with an afternoon of preliminary heats to cull the finalists down to the very best singers. This way, everyone had their chance to perform but my audience heard only quality product. I must admit that I didn't make Paxton audition. I would have but he has no sense of humor.

Mike Miller

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 01:52 AM

The first time I ever performed at an open mike was in 1962 at Gerde's Folk City in Greenwich village, and they called it a "hootenanny." No cover, just a (2 drink?) minimum. They had folks sign up for pretty much sequential slots, and mine was initially scheduled for about 10 PM, but their policy -- at least, their practice--was to insert into the roster any established acts (Paxton, Van Ronk, etc.) who dropped by during the breaks at their paid gigs. Enough of these ringers dropped by that by the time I got on stage it was about 1:30 AM and I'd had 5 hefty gin and tonics. As a result, I slurred some lyrics, twisted my tongue, missed some chords, etc. -- i.e., really sucked, at least from a technical standpoint--, but I had no stage fright, so I had a good time. The audience actually seemed to enjoy what I did,too, --no doubt because they were pretty sloshed by then, too.

Anyway, that format--letting the pros 'play through,' as it were--seemed to work pretty well. They got the priority spots but the rest of us got a chance to play, too. (And by making some of us wait till the end of the evening to perform, they sold us more drinks, too. ;-)

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Trevor
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 04:34 AM

Sal and I and the rest of Rapsquillion did an open stage the other night. There was everything from a brass band to a Russian singing dirges of the homeland, via a group of young Spanish girls doing some kind of salsa dance and one of the organisers' nine-year old playing a cornet.

We were asked to do a second spot to close the show and immediately before us was the familiar spotty youth with Fender, yelling into the mike. The MC had told him he could do two numbers but when he'd finished he bawled to the corner where his mates were 'Do you want some more!...' They of course shouted that they did and, when the MC said that there wasn't time, the lad slung his guitar across the stage shouted that 'you can all fuck off then!' and kicked his way through the tables back to his mates.

Imagine us shuffling on stage to do our set including our brand of rousing non-conformist, close(ish)harmony, hymns, waiting for the bottles to start flying.

It didn't happen but Sal was shaking for a couple of hours - character building or what.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Deni
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 05:01 AM

Having noticed that some good performers were not appreciated by the audience, we set about finding an audience that did like them. It's pretty hard for traditional singers to charm a devoted contemporary audience etc... but a different audience might love them.

We do themed concerts. The audience know exactly what they're getting and pay £3.50. We get four or five specially chosen acts and ask them if they have any songs to fit into a particular theme. (loose themes)Then we can publicise them as heavily as possible, which is the only benefit they get from performing.

So far we've done bards and Ballads, Mirth and Merriment and Love and Loss. Attendances were good, in some cases very good. And for all the adverse comments about suicide songs, the Love and Loss concert went down a bomb. We're also trying taking the show to different venues to prevent the wearing out of the same audience.

our open mics are £1 to get in. We have many MCs on a rota, which means different acts are preferred and used and in some case giving ;longer slots. I can't say everyopne's happy,(are they ever?) but it works for most people!!!

Hyde Folk Club and Plymouth Folk Festival, Devon, UK.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 07:14 AM

Trev: that was such an accurate discription of that night, it b b b b brought it all back. What a night that was! (but we did get a little reward for it!)

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 07:48 AM

At one "Open Mic" club which I used to go to regularly, there was a particular singer/guitarist who was so bad that he was hilarious. When he had a pickup inserted in his guitar, he asked the club organiser to make him up a lead for it - and the next week was presented with one with a 1/4 inch jack on one end and a mains plug on the other - the audience found it hysterical. Incidently, the organiser said afterwards that he hadn't actually connected the mains plug - just in case! However, after this incident he had singing and guitar lessons - and improved. I can remember someone saying later that "He'd gone from being hilarious to merely mediocre".

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,Arjay
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 04:25 PM

Great story, Trevor!

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Bardford
Date: 05 Jul 02 - 05:02 PM

One of the local open mic nights has two buckets for performers' names. If you played in the last week or two, your name goes into one bucket, if you haven't played there in while, drop your name in the other bucket. I'm not sure how this system is actually used, but could see how it might be utilized creatively by the host. I think performers have a three song/15 minute limit.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: SlickerBill
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 01:11 AM

Now, I know what is meant here by "good" vs "bad" singing and all, but recently I was at a session where a comment got me to thinking. I was about to do a Neil Young cover, and stopped to tune (it was outdoors) and made some comment to that effect. And some guy says " No matter; it's Neil Young". Now I know this guy and I realized that to him "good" singing is pretty much the crap you hear on pop radio, all oo baby, no substance. To this guy, and MANY people like him Neil and Bob and Steve Earle and all these people are crap. Personally I think the guy doesn't know what's good, but that's just me. I guess there's singin' and there's singin';).

All that aside, quandary, kudos to you for all you do for your local scene. Watch yourself though; don't burn out. I would say with all you do, that earns you the right to make the calls. I think you give em a chance, but a limited one. And you're nice and polite and give'em all the respect you'd give anybody, UNTIL they pull some of the crap you've mentioned above. See, I teach high school for a living: the way i see it, you give people respect, and yeah you cut people some slack here and there, but if they disrespect you the gloves come off baby. That way they learn to respect others. It's a two way street out there, and anybody that needs to learn that better bloody well hurry up and learn. There's nothing wrong with using your clout. "Good luck gettin' back up again", I'd say, and if they bugger off fine. If not, and they wise up, great. Maybe give em another go, but YOU say when and for how long. Good luck to ya. sb

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,Quandary
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 04:04 AM

Another night done and dusted ... Last night: all pre-booked open mics spots and they all turned up (phew!) Q: Which is worse not knowing if ANYONE is going to come or people booking and not turning up? One performer peripheral to the evening floated in (drunk) and constantly sulking big time because they couldn't just do a spot like there and then. (Some nights this is possible, last night everyone had booked their 15 minutes and because they ALL turned up late we couldn't accomodate any additional spots). Q: Regulars - who make a habit of turning up late deliberately in order that they will get a later spot (perceived as higher status) 1. Pulled the plug on one act who is consistently told firmly '10 mins or 2 songs, etc' and then becomes transfixed to the spot carrying on and on - incidentally one who never books a spot either and also always turns up late. Happily, HE is BIG enough to accept when he's pushed his limit. 2. One performer who every time they come, comes accompanied by disruptive elements. They have alienated and lost the club both customers and other performers. Their 'argument' is that if the other acts were any good then people (and they presumably) WOULD shut up and listen. They will be banned - and I am pulling their act from the festival showcase: they haven't earned it, they don't deserve it, they drive away more than they pull in (which are the disruptive elements I mentioned earlier.

(Plus: after they had flounced off after being asked to keep it down, they were waylaying people as they were coming out (I didn't realise this).

- I was tackled the night before at another event about my expectations of people lending a respectful hush - apparently I am 'heavy' about it (actually no, I'm not) because 'they' want, and it should be, fun. Fun, however is not at everyone else's expense. 3. My top act (which people had come to listen to and stayed through the rest of evening to hear) let themselves down (and the club) - under-rehearsed, pissed, here's one we made up earlier today, and, let's insist on pushing our experimental boundaries with an excruciating fuzz box which was uncontrollable via the PA. They will be spoken to (using very good guidelines that people have raised above). 4. We had some great acts - it has to be said. On the evidence of a very genre-challenging(?) demo which I had been holding my breath about, one new act was the surprise hit of the evening! He can come back! Altho', critically 15 minutes is about right for that particular (very different /alternative) genre. 5. Of all the issues which I had taken on board from the great advice above, all the contingency plans I had - which all worked (and actually I enjoyed the evening) the one unprecedented scenario last night was the number of performers who were drunk and the supporters with them who were drunk. I wasn't flummoxed but I was deeply, deeply bemused and now have my protective instincts for the club in its entirety (audience, reputation, other performers, etc) finely honed without any emotional baggage about confrontations and 'upsetting' people in order to try and keep everyone happpy ..

Thank you, Mudcatters, thank you, for helping me see the woods for the trees and the way out!

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 04:16 AM

Run it like the MudCat Cafe. EVERYBODY WELCOME!!! Poetry, Free Verse, Prose, Child's Verse, Speaking in Tongues, Possum Farts, and every other sort of hideous sound at ANY time.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Blues=Life
Date: 06 Jul 02 - 09:37 AM

One possible solution that would kill two birds at once is to require auditions and sound checks from all new acts. You get to dial in everyone's sound requirements ahead of time, and you also get to audition the new unknowns.

Of course, the other option is to let everyone in who wants to play, but to have a bushel of overripe tomatoes on hand just in case! :-)

Blues

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Genie
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 01:00 AM

Good for you, Q!

Genie

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 05:11 AM

Blue-Life: re. tomatoes - that thought had already crossed my mind in one form or another!!! Alternatively, the big shepherd's crook from side-stage to gently yet firmly remove acts!

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 12:31 PM

I helped run an open mike for about five years. During that time we had to change locations three times. We started out in the back of a co-op art gallery where refreshments were on a BYOB basis. When that gallery lost its lease a restaurant let us set up there. They sold food and beverages, including beer, but no BYOB. When the restaurant owner decided he wasn't really making enough extra money for his efforts, we moved to a bar. Need I say more?

Of these three venues, the restaurant, where the level alcohol consumption was the least, had the best overall level of performance. At both the BYOB and the bar there were always people who really weren't much good that were emboldened buy alcohol and people who may have been ok if sober that were too drunk to do well.

So, if you really want to minimize the c**p at open mikes, have them at coffee houses. A lot of the c**p comes straight out of a bottle.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 12:34 PM

Yeah, Q, I think your post about the alcohol begins to show where the problem actually lies, and why YOU are getting blamed for it instead of people taking responsibility for themselves and recognizing your leadership. If you aren't willing to be blamed anymore, but instead welcome responsibility, you should be well on your way to clearing this up.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Coyote
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 01:00 PM

Obviously hit a sensitive nerve with this thread. At one club where I sometimes play they have a sort of Beginners workshop night where people can sign up, they get three numbers (two if one of them is Matty Groves) and then get a critique. You have to go through the beginners night if you want to get to the open mikes. Everyone does at least one beginners night .... (yes, Virginia, it is actually an audition, but with some helpful hints for the shy, the true beginner, and etc).

I remember the very first time I stood up to sing solo as a folk musician and how scared and unsure I was. If I'd been slammed instead of encouraged a lifetime of music might have been missed.

A little compassion and/or empathy would not be amiss.

the Coyote

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,Sonja
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 02:46 PM

Coyote, I think that Beginners' Night is a great idea. One problem with the usual "audition" is that it's done under conditions that don't simulate the conditions of the performance itself. Many good entertainers -- maybe all good entertainers (as opposed to just good technicians)--play off the audience, and it's hard to show your stuff if you're trying to impress a lone judge (especially if s/he's sitting there with a sour or poker face). If you're doing comedy or singing funny songs it's even harder.

Then there's the flip side -- some performers freak out when they actually do have to perform in front of an audience--especially a big or rude one.

Also, the Broadway clichŽ of the audition is some director yelling "Thank you," after the poor singer has sung only a couple of bars of the song.

"Auditioning" via a Beginners' Night where you have a real audience and get to do 2 or 3 songs seems ideal.

~SWO~

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: musicmick
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 04:21 PM

Beginners Night sounds like a good idea. That way, the audience would know what was in store, you could offer critique (usually unwelcome unless it's positive), a sympathetic audience (more realistic than one might imagine. Audiences, as a rule, really want the performer to succeed.)Your bar owner will be content as long as he sells his libations, and you will not have to face an unanticipated wave of disappointments. (The acts may, well, suck but you will, at least, be expecting the worst) I think I'll suggest such a plan to our local open mike venues. Of course, it would be the very height of chutzpah to expect the audience to pay an entrance fee for these shows which, although they might present an occasional star to be, are more likely to be of the Chuck Barris genre.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,Quandary
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 09:09 PM

Well one can never keep all of the people happy all of the time.

However, I feel so much better that whatever formats we tinker with or what ever venues we decide to change to for example, that the feedback is positive: audience and performers alike want a decent respectful properly-run with clearly defined expectations on either side environment and the one that don't can just stay away and gripe away about 'heavy' policies that preclude them from having fun with no consideration for everyone else!

I've put together a tentative draft guidelines which (i'll just sign up to membership) anyone interested can PM me for.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Nemesis
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 09:14 PM

Hey, it works!! (that cookie membership thing) :) :)

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 10:09 PM

Q, I'd love to see your guidelines posted.

Welcome to Mudcat!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 10:18 AM

One bit of advice - when you give a performer a specific number of songs do make them understand that PART of a song counts as a song. There's been many occasions where I've heard a singer forget the words over halfway through a song and then start a new one - they often seem to think that they can keep going until they actually manage to complete one !

When I ran a Folk Club, I would only give any unknown floorspot performer(s) one song to start with. If they were up to scratch they got more.

There are usually many sessions where less-talented or inexperienced performers can improve their skills - we all had to start somewhere, but if you are charging an admission fee or receiving payment for the entertainment, then you must set a minimum standard.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,Sonja
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 11:38 AM

On the other hand, Dave, if it's "three songs or 10 minutes," a performer shouldn't have to quit after 3 minutes if s/he wants to throw in 3 "quickies" (e.g., the Smothers Brothers' versions of "Hangman," "Blood On The Saddle," and "Streets Of Laredo"). Personally, I prefer to have a time slot specified and have the emcee give a finger signal when I have, say, 3 min. left. [As long as they don't signal you that way when you have ONE minute left. ;) ] Some judgment is called for, of course. If you finish a song at the ninth minute, you don't do another one unless you can finish it in about 30 sec.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: SharonA
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 12:03 PM

Then there are the performers who try to "get around" the 2-song or 3-song limit by playing medleys!! (This is where the time limit comes in handy!)

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: SharonA
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 12:22 PM

By the way, the open mike nights I've hosted have all been at coffeehouses – no BYOB – and I've run into most of the problems mentioned on this thread. So the problems aren't all alcohol-fueled by any means!

And Quandary, let me also welcome you to the asylum Mudcat!!

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Genie
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 12:41 PM

Yeah, Q, bienvenu au Mudcat!

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Hawker
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 03:05 PM

When I was 16 my then boyfriend sent me some poetry when he had been grounded for playing truant, most poems were soppy love peotry, but there was one that I will never forget, though the sands of time may have altered the wording slightly and the author I have no idea about, but I often think about it at open mike torture sessions:

There was a man with a tongue of wood
Who loved to sing
In truth, it was lamentable.....
But there was one who heard
The clip clatter of the tongue of wood
And knew what the singer wished to sing
With that, the singer was content

It helps me a little..... but it there are many wooden tongues.........AAAAaaarghhh!!!!!! Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Nemesis
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 03:09 PM

Hi,

Thank you all for the welcome - it's positively nice to be here.

These are the DRAFT guidelines I've come up with. Please note they are draft only and apply to the circumstances our club is grappling with. If I issue them I'd point out to folks that they are not intended to be 'heavy' just trying to ensure everyone knows where they stand and also what they can expect (to encounter) and also to get in return. ----------- DRAFT Performers' Guidelines

The team of people involved in organising the club work extremely hard and are committed to providing a worthwhile, sustainable, venue for performers and audience alike. These notes are intended to clarify any misunderstandings and misconceptions. ---------------------------------------------- General Information 1) PA – The Sound Engineer volunteers for and does a commendably good and dedicated job in addition to supplying the PA equipment. He is a reasonable person, albeit pressurised during performances. So - if you have sound-problem issues: · Arrive promptly before the Club starts (8pm) to speak to SE to sort them out before you perform. (See notes on PA technical specs). · You always have the option of performing without PA.

2) Entry fees on non-guest nights: · #2 to pre-booked performers · #2 to audience including performers' supporters and fan club, etc.

3) The club aims to make a profit: with profits to be ploughed back into the club - to provide a quality venue and good reputation for performance – and to put on festival events together with the town arts group – which includes your act.

4) Entry fees go towards running costs of the club, including advertising, photocopying, office materials, etc. Donated for free to the club are huge amounts of telephone costs, time arranging free publicity, petrol, and hard work trudging around putting up posters; visiting, supporting and co-operating with other local clubs. ---------------------------- The Club believes in cross-Club co-operation and collaboration in order to promote live music, in particular, and performing arts in general - including your act. *************************** Do you want to support a healthy venue for live performances - with a sympathetic, music- loving and loyal audience and the support of other musicians? Then please respect these: Performers' Guidelines: 1) Pre-book a spot · Whenever possible · Not pre-booking means a spot cannot be guaranteed. Pre-booking facilitates the smooth running of floor spots including yours. 2) Not pre-booked? · Arrive by 7.45pm and you can be put on the Reserve List. (First come basis) 3) Late arrival can mean losing a spot 4) Advance notice of late arrival · Can be accommodated. · But not to performers who consistently contrive to turn up late to perform late. Strong opening acts have as much impact as strong closing acts. 5) Prioritising · Pre-booked Performers will be prioritised. · Prompt arrival performers - will be prioritised. (Prompt means by 8pm) 6) Amateur status does not mean amateur standards: · A floor spot comprises 15 minutes of rehearsed material. · Instruments should be tuned and, by and large, ready ' to go' · Liase before performing with S.E. (Sound) to agree your sound. · If time allows, encores may be solicited - performers will need other rehearsed material available. · Stunning, shocking or deafening audiences into silence with an act – does not always equal a good act or one that they might return to see. 7) Respect other performances: · Performers and audience travel considerable distances to the Club – performers/ audience will not come or return to a club where loud, drunken, talking disrupts acts that they have paid, to hear, or perform. · First-time audience/performers - may not come back · Regular audience/performers - may stop coming · With no performers and no audience – there is no club. · If you positively want the club – then support the club positively. ---------------------------------------------------- Performers' Guidelines are intended to make the Club enjoyable and run smoothly for all. Performers, their friends and audience members, who consistently and selfishly flout them, to the detriment of everyone's wellbeing – WILL BE EXPECTED TO LEAVE.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 05:09 PM

Sounds a but heavy put down like that but its no more than what any well run club should be doing. If the public pay to come in then they deserve no less.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Nemesis
Date: 08 Jul 02 - 07:51 PM

Thanks, Pete - hum! Yes, 'heaviness' especially to new performers or regulars who are already towing the line - I think as much as anything it has helped to get my thoughts clarified as to what we should be doing - Maybe I should cut out the last paragraph - does sound a bit threatening! (Altho' expecting people 'to leave' was far less radical than what I was contemplating doing to at least 5 people last club night :) !

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 05:37 AM

I usually do give a time limit, but you can't really cut a singer off in mid song - although I have curtailed a couple of very dire performances. I can remember on one occasion, it took three of us to drag a singer(?) off - to huge cheers from the audience. Strangely enough the chap turned up the following week and wanted another spot.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: HuwG
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 08:25 AM

It usually takes three people to drag me on stage; and as for time limits, I generally need separate times for my voice and my guitar.

However, there's nothing like friends to cheer me up afterwards.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 08:57 AM

Hille, I've taken the liberty of re-running your guidelines with some line breaks added.

~Susan

=================================================

DRAFT Performers' Guidelines

The team of people involved in organising the club work extremely hard and are committed to providing a worthwhile, sustainable, venue for performers and audience alike. These notes are intended to clarify any misunderstandings and misconceptions.

----------------------------------------------

General Information

1) PA – The Sound Engineer volunteers for and does a commendably good and dedicated job in addition to supplying the PA equipment. He is a reasonable person, albeit pressurised during performances.

So - if you have sound-problem issues:
· Arrive promptly before the Club starts (8pm) to speak to SE to sort them out before you perform. (See notes on PA technical specs).
· You always have the option of performing without PA.

2) Entry fees on non-guest nights:
· #2 to pre-booked performers
· #2 to audience including performers' supporters and fan club, etc.

3) The club aims to make a profit: with profits to be ploughed back into the club - to provide a quality venue and good reputation for performance – and to put on festival events together with the town arts group – which includes your act.

4) Entry fees go towards running costs of the club, including advertising, photocopying, office materials, etc. Donated for free to the club are huge amounts of telephone costs, time arranging free publicity, petrol, and hard work trudging around putting up posters; visiting, supporting and co-operating with other local clubs.

----------------------------

The Club believes in cross-Club co-operation and collaboration in order to promote live music, in particular, and performing arts in general - including your act.

***************************

Do you want to support a healthy venue for live performances - with a sympathetic, music- loving and loyal audience and the support of other musicians? Then please respect these:

Performers' Guidelines:

1) Pre-book a spot
· Whenever possible
· Not pre-booking means a spot cannot be guaranteed. Pre-booking facilitates the smooth running of floor spots including yours.

2) Not pre-booked?
· Arrive by 7.45pm and you can be put on the Reserve List. (First come basis)

3) Late arrival can mean losing a spot

4) Advance notice of late arrival
· Can be accommodated.
· But not to performers who consistently contrive to turn up late to perform late. Strong opening acts have as much impact as strong closing acts.

5) Prioritising
· Pre-booked Performers will be prioritised.
· Prompt arrival performers - will be prioritised. (Prompt means by 8pm)

6) Amateur status does not mean amateur standards:
· A floor spot comprises 15 minutes of rehearsed material.
· Instruments should be tuned and, by and large, ready ' to go'
· Liase before performing with S.E. (Sound) to agree your sound.
· If time allows, encores may be solicited - performers will need other rehearsed material available.
· Stunning, shocking or deafening audiences into silence with an act – does not always equal a good act or one that they might return to see.

7) Respect other performances:
· Performers and audience travel considerable distances to the Club – performers/ audience will not come or return to a club where loud, drunken, talking disrupts acts that they have paid, to hear, or perform.
· First-time audience/performers - may not come back
· Regular audience/performers - may stop coming
· With no performers and no audience – there is no club.
· If you positively want the club – then support the club positively.

----------------------------------------------------

Performers' Guidelines are intended to make the Club enjoyable and run smoothly for all. Performers, their friends and audience members, who consistently and selfishly flout them, to the detriment of everyone's wellbeing – WILL BE EXPECTED TO LEAVE.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Nemesis
Date: 09 Jul 02 - 11:42 AM

Thanks Susan!

If I'm going to hang around here I'd better learn these things *G*!

Actually - it's the last bit that I think is OTT - scrubbing that for Draft 2 :)

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 05:29 AM

just trawling thru my old 'traces' and found this. Quite amuzing.

Sal

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: jonm
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 06:45 AM

Apart from the thought of having one night in six or so as a "new talent" night for people who have never performed at the club to try out and get some constructive feedback, I wonder whether there's an opportunity for new technology here.

It may be possible to hook up a cheap digital recorder to the PA and create an MP3 of each performance, which can then be given to the performer - on a USB pen, or via email etc. etc. They feel they are getting something for their money and also have an opportunity to hear what they really sound like!

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 07:27 AM

I'm amazed that everybody on this thread thinks *beginners* are the problem. Round here it's usually people who might have been good 30 years ago but have lost their voice, memory for the lyrics, taste and sensitivity to other people before almost all the current club-goers joined. You can't tell them anything.

In contrast, there is one really crap instrumentalist I often encounter who really *is* a beginner (and has been that way for 10 years) but seems much less problematic. He *knows* he's not very good, he puts a lot of effort into it, and he keeps his spots short and to the point. Everybody I know likes him.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 10:53 AM

"Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: John P - PM
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 08:39 AM

Guest Quandary, you said:
"Why, oh why, is it in the 'folkish' world we inhabit - is it okay to sing and perform appallingly...Would any other profession put up with dismal or nonexistent standards?"

Of course! In fact, a person thirty years old has heard very little good singing unless her family took her to church or to classical performances. Wretched singing has become standard. When I shop or eat out I am forced to listen to some of the ugliest sounds I have ever heard - singing out of tune, singing through the nose, the gurgling of phlegm, shrieking, wailing. Many people today think that's what singing is.

As for open mic, I can stand anything if they are only going to sing one song.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Midchuck
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 11:03 AM

In fact, a person thirty years old has heard very little good singing unless her family took her to church or to classical performances.

I don't fully agree. A person can hear what I consider to be good singing from good folk, old-fashioned pop, or even older country, or bluegrass, performers.

Wretched singing has become standard. When I shop or eat out I am forced to listen to some of the ugliest sounds I have ever heard - singing out of tune, singing through the nose, the gurgling of phlegm, shrieking, wailing. Many people today think that's what singing is.

That part, I do agree with.

Peter

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 11:11 AM

My pet hate is the performer who hasn't learned the songs, relies on reading the words from a book and rummages through the book when it's their turn to sing! Oh, and once they've deicded what to sing, they can't remember the tune...

Aaaaargh!

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 11:15 AM

gurgling with phlegm.........great name for a band!

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Scoville
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 11:24 AM

One of our local venues has singer/songwriter night, in which several promising local acts play half-hour or so sets (depends on how many of them are scheduled). Sort of a step above open mic. I think they sometimes do semi-open mic--meaning that the performer has to contact them ahead of time and probably has to either play fo them first or submit a recording--with very shorts sets as an opener, and then if there is a good response, they might eventually make it to the longer set as a featured artist.

Requires more work but keeps the bar at a reasonable level.

If you really want a true open mic, though, I hate to see the institution bashed so badly. Open mic was invaluable for getting me over a crippling case of stage fright and learning not to talk too much, to talk into the mic, etc. But people do need input--it's dangerous if you let them go on forever in abject crappiness.

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: treewind
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 12:35 PM

Jack:
He *knows* he's not very good, he puts a lot of effort into it

Nail hit firmly on the head, especially the bit about putting effort into it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 12:44 PM

>>the gurgling of phlegm<<
leeneia
Could that have been applied to Joe Cocker, one of my favourite singers.

Or was Joe gurgling with grit and phlegm.

Nothing wrong with modern music, just like all eras, some good some bad.
I think you may have grown old and not moved with the times.

A young 62 year old :-) Most listened program on the radio for me - Radio1. Bring on the changes.

To think my father used to be just the same as you - whinging about modern music wasy back in 1956. By the time he was 60 we had converted him LOL

Subject: RE: Help! Open Stage and C**p performers
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 12:49 PM

The only 'good' thing about crap performers getting spots is that it CAN encourage some one else to 'Have a Go' !