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BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit?
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Bobert Date: 28 Feb 03 - 10:27 PM mary garvey: Fine! Now get your "own life" down to Texas and stop the senseless killing of poor black people whose only crime is being too poor to hire a competent attorney on their way to George Bush's death chamber. Mean while, where do you want to stop? I mean, what countries are on *your* list of bad countries? I'm real curious about this. And is the US on the list? Like I said, just curious... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Oldguy Date: 28 Feb 03 - 11:54 PM mary garvey: The anti-war protestors here do not think about the barbarism that goes on in Iran, They don't want to think about it. They keep repeating "thousands of bombs being dropped on thousands of innocent people" and "millions killed" and variations of the same while completely ignoring evidence to the contrary. If you ask them if it is OK for the people in Iraq to suffer because nothing is done to liberate them, they do not answer. Nobody's plan is any good except their plan which is to do nothing. It is hard to screw that one up. They attack anyone of authority and call their actions illegal, unconstitutional, stupid etc. They find evil conspiracies everywhere. Greedy oil men are trying to grab the oil in Iraq. They are in general a bunch of insecure crybabies huddling together in an attempt to find strength and reinforcement in numbers. The only ones they convince are each other. It is a waste of time to post your opinions here unless you are anti-war. If you support of the government you get personally insulted. Some of them even warn you not to post your opinions here at the same time that they are defending the right of free speech. They are the "usefull idiots" that Lenin wrote about. Good luck. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Don Firth Date: 28 Feb 03 - 11:55 PM Not much of a tax cut when you figure that most working stiffs with anything left over to invest usually put it in IRAs or 401Ks, which won't be affected by it at all. Big flamin' deal!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Forum Lurker Date: 01 Mar 03 - 11:41 AM Oldguy, just because intervention of some kind is necessary doesn't mean that we should stand idly by and watch Bush destroy the Constitution to make it easier for him to carry out his quite possibly unneccessary war. As you might have heard, Bush has now announced that Saddam must go into exile or we will invade Iraq. He doesn't have any legal basis for it, but he made the demand anyway. Do not accept the wrong course of action simply out of a desire to do something. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester Date: 01 Mar 03 - 01:27 PM OK, the west armed and supported him. The west and global capitalism has done lots of very bad things. 1. Sadam is very evil 2. He has done most of the evil things that can be done 3. He shows no sign of changing 4. People of Iraq are not 'his own people' they are the People of Iraq and he is a gangster. 5. He will not go soon 6. People in Iraq are suffereing and they want him to go 7. He will remain a danger to lots of us until he goes 8. He has refused to do what the UN asked for 12+ years 9. He is moving a bit because of US/UK etc pressure 10. The sooner he goes the safer the people of Iraq and the rest of world will be 11. It looks as if the US through the UN will remove him by war |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Beccy Date: 01 Mar 03 - 02:24 PM Read the article at the other end of this blue clicky Iraq and you will understand just why I support regime change in Iraq (however it is accomplished most quickly and thoroughly.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Beccy Date: 01 Mar 03 - 02:26 PM ... And before you say, "Well, the government WOULD say that..." please note that a great deal of their information is footnoted as sourced by Amnesty International. The last time I checked, no one was accusing AI of being in the backpocket of GW Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: TIA Date: 01 Mar 03 - 03:13 PM Old Guy, for someone who recently pissed and moaned about being subjected to "derision and insults" in this forum, you're sure dishing out a hell of a lot of derision and insult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Mark Clark Date: 01 Mar 03 - 03:31 PM Beccy, No one is doubting that all those horrible things are true. I suggest making a list of all heads of state for whom a similar list of atrocities exists and check to see which of their countries are also being threatened with preemptive attack. It might also be instructive to see which despots on the list are actually being supported by the U.S. government or one of its agencies. If we have no choice but to commit the world to war over Saddam Hussein's atrocities, don't you think we should also begin working down the list and get them all? Read this article on “Friendly Dictators” to begin to get some appreciation of how the U.S. has traditionally dealt with these monsters. My experience has been that many people are looking for a simple, feel-good solution to the world's toughest issues and don't make time to really do the research necessary to develop an informed opinion. Instead, they decide which of the loudest voices on an issue they are willing to trust and adopt that point of view. If the loudest voice is also in some official capacity or is a media star of some kind, the choice may be easier. The world isn't so much a struggle of good against evil as it is a complex interaction of national interest, private interests, desire for power, human interests, religious belief and historical perception. Until one is really familiar with all aspects of this complex matrix of powerful human imperatives as they bear on a particular situation, one is really just at the mercy of the currently loudest voice. Think about it, please. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Bobert Date: 01 Mar 03 - 04:26 PM Thanks, Mark, for a well written post and an excellent link. If Beccy, Old Guy, et al, will take the time to read this link I think they will no other choice but to do some serious rethinking. This is the point we have been trying to make all along. Why Iraq? And why now? And why *war* as pretty close to the the top of the list of first resorts? Why the lack of diplomacy? Why all this huff 'n puff foriegn policy? Why... Why... These are seasonable questions that have not been answered. All we have gotten is a lot of PR crap but not a single answer that a civilized and thinking person, especially aftering reading your post and link, would recognize as being an "answer". I mean, personally, I'd rather hear Bush tell the truth for a change and tell us his real motivations but he won't. At least they would be *honest*. But to give us this same old PR is disrespectfull to not only the folks that are going to die but for the American people who pay his salary! Beam me up! Resist stupid foreign policies! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Oldguy Date: 01 Mar 03 - 05:40 PM Tia: I said I could handle the personal insults and derision. Actually it is a bit much but all I see is attacks and insults here, nothing constructive except to protest against somebody with a plan. The main course of action I hear from the protestors is let the inspections continue. I think we can all see that what has been found so far (what Saddam was not able to cover up) is an indication that much more exists. 12 more years of inspections would not be enough time to discover everything. In the meantime people are suffering. Inspections do not seem like much of a plan, just a way to stretch things out indefinitely. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: DougR Date: 01 Mar 03 - 05:44 PM One despot at a time, Mark. One at a time. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Mark Clark Date: 01 Mar 03 - 07:24 PM I've often thought an “insider's” perspective can help shed some light on a situation.
- Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Frankham Date: 01 Mar 03 - 07:49 PM Inspections are a means of containment. If they went on for thirty years it would keep Saddam at bay. A first strike would set up a model for the rest of the world to do the same thing. Any country could rationalize this sanguinary action. The only solution the US has is to work through the UN. Instead of detracting and running it down, it's time to listen carefully to every country. The UN not perfect but it's better than any country in the world acting unilaterally to create another world war. Bush has no coherent plan for Iraq. His Administration isn't even handling Afghanistan particularly well. Karzai shouldn't have to beg Bush Administration for help. Our foreign policy is a shambles. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Skippy Date: 01 Mar 03 - 07:53 PM "We" voted our leaders in, because we want to them to deal with the "big problems", once done, it is too late to disagree with their decisions, therefore we must stand by then in their hour of need. We can remove them later if we feel that they failed us. That is the whole point of democracy. They see "the bigger picture" because they are privvy to one hell of a lot of info that we are not, so lets let our elected sort this out on our behalf, because in theory that is why we elected them in the first place! I support them however please note I would rather eat my own spleen that vote labour! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Mark Clark Date: 01 Mar 03 - 08:22 PM That would be the “Doctor Science” argument… “I know more than you do. I have a masters degree… in science.”Skippy, I think you've opted to believe the loudest voice rather than think for yourself. Here in the U.S. we expect to have access to the same background information as do our leaders. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Jeep man Date: 01 Mar 03 - 08:29 PM Of course. Remember the Chad Mitchell Trio's song "With God On Our Side"? Its gotta be alright because we are the good guys. Jeep |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Bobert Date: 01 Mar 03 - 08:44 PM Yo, Skippy: The only folks that voted George Bush into the White House were the 5 memebers of the Supreme Court who Bush's daddy and Ron Reagan put on the court. Bush *lost* the election! He lost the *popular* vote! And he was within two hours of loosing the *electorial* vote when the Supreme Court, at Bush's (not Gore's) request stepped in and stopped the recount! Those are facts! So for you to insinuate that we should just sit by while a Conservative Supreme Court's choice of leadership goes about starting a war that could very well *never end*, is not only shortsighted but down right insulting to the ideals of democracy. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Oldguy Date: 02 Mar 03 - 12:44 AM Skippy: My independently formed opinion agrees with yours. The people yelling the loudest are the antiwar protestors. They refuse to accept Bush as the duly elected president even though their candidate ceded the election publicly and announced that he was recognizing GW Bush as the president. That was after he lost the election and tried to win it back through the use of telemarketers. We all have faith and trust in organizations that need to use telemarketers don't we? The ruckus began over a ballot that was designed by a Democrat, approved by a Democrat and administered by Democrats in a Democratic district. The same problems were occurring year after year until a Democrat lost. Then the alternate second set of standards for Democrats came into play. The way I read the Supreme Court decision is that 7 justices ruled that the recount of only certain portions of the ballots was unconstitutional. So the last leg that the sore losers have to stand on is that some of the judges were appointed by a previous administration which biased their opinion. They have to be approved by congress as per the Constitution and the voters elect the members of Congress. Now the only possible argument is that the Constitution is unconstitutional. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Oldguy Date: 02 Mar 03 - 11:57 AM Mark Clark: "denounce the pacifists" I haven't seen this happening. President Bush himself said this is an indication of a healthy, active democracy. The "pacifists" are denouncing the people that support the government's actions. The pacifists can say what ever they want and anyone can comment on it by saying anything they want. When the pacifists do their demonstrations and the people that support the government are not swayed, they get mad. The use of quotations by Nazis or publications of defunct companies that publish trading cards about murderers and dictators is about as valid as using the National Enquirer as a source. Saddam Hussein said "Iraq has no chemical or biological weapons". Should we go by what he said? Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Forum Lurker Date: 02 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM Many of Bush's supporters denounce the anti-war activists as "un-American." If you want, I can dig up newspaper clips, but I'm prety sure you'll have seen it for yourself. Besides, Bush's "You're either with us, or against us" says pretty much the same thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Oldguy Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:22 PM Forum Lurker: Is President Bush denouncing anti-war activists? His with us or against us statement was directed to other countries. He is not calling his administration "us"; he is calling America "us". To the part of the population that supports the government it seems like the anti-war activists are more supportive of governments of other countries than they are of their own, the more passionate of them might call anti-war activists un-American or unpatriotic but hey, that's the Constitution for you. However the anti-war activists do not hesitate to denounce the people that support the government by calling them "warmongers" Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Beccy Date: 03 Mar 03 - 08:59 AM Mark- I did think about it. And I remain in favor of removing Saddam Hussein and his regime. I will not say that because we haven't removed the other "friendly" dictators that we should not remove Hussein. That's a ridiculous non-sequitor. Do you think that my support of a military campaign is a "feel good solution"? (your words) You can't really think that I feel GOOD about people potentially going to their deaths, can you? I have done a great deal of research into the Iraq situation (among others) and have come to an informed conclusion. That you disagree with it is obvious. But please do not assume that I came to this decision lightly. Bobert, you said- "If Beccy, Old Guy, et al, will take the time to read this link I think they will no other choice but to do some serious rethinking." You begin to offend me with your condescension. It seems you think that if I just read the same things you read that I will automatically shift my opinion to be homogenous with yours. Please. You and I both know diversity is the human condition. I read that article that Mark sent the link to and came from it with a renewed support for our potential involvement in Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Beccy Date: 03 Mar 03 - 09:02 AM ... And about the link... Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we see the error of our ways with Hitler and go to war over it???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Oldguy Date: 03 Mar 03 - 10:32 AM People (most people) eventually wise up to their mistakes, try to correct them if possible and vow not to repeat them. EG: "We are not going to close our eyes what a dictator does again" Some of them think that no action is the best action because they can't screw that up. They think that if other people are making futile attempts and that exonerates them if the attempts do not solve the problem. EG: "The UN is working on it for the 12th year and we should not interfere. That way the blame will be on the UN and I won't have to feel guilty." Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: TIA Date: 03 Mar 03 - 11:29 AM Old guy: I'm sorry, I'm slow this morning. Who are you quoting? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,This is a folk forum? Date: 03 Mar 03 - 12:59 PM And you expected the majority of this strum and drum audience to do what...........say yes! Come on now.....it wouldn't make any sense for such a bunch of free thinkers to actually work outside the self created 1960's box that you have so corageously put on. Human rights, womens rights, childrens rights, environmental rights ....these things make great topics for songs but it's the war song that makes them real. Remeber..........the best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity. Europe in 1938............how many died The world in 2003.............it's tough to watch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Teribus Date: 03 Mar 03 - 01:47 PM Thanks for the Link Mark - "Friendly Dictators" - It is highly recommended reading - It's a far better laugh than the BS: Chemtrails thread currently dropping off the bottom of the page. The one about Pakistan - "In 1979 drugs were unknown in Pakistan" - Yeah bloody right - The author patently hasn't got a clue, not the foggiest bloody notion. Surprised he missed out Joseph Stalin, and that idiot in Rumania. All brought to power and aided and abetted by the American Government and CIA covert-ops - Then when you actually get in to the mini-diatribe - you find that in most cases the appellation "Friendly" applied to the Government of the United States is based on the fact that the Ford Motor Company sold some trucks - WOW - Absolutely, laughable in content, style and presentation - and woefully apparent that some actually take all that crap in and believe it, hook-line-and-sinker. If you visit some of the links thrown out by Third World Traveller, there are some even better laughs - best word to describe it is ludicrous. One historical parallel that was drawn to my attention to-day, relating to France: The last time France demanded to be shown more convincing proof, the proof drove through France waving German flags. Another attributed to Donald Rumsfeld (but I doubt if actually did say it): Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without you accordian. Do I think that a war on Iraq is legit? - I'll put it this way - to sit back and do nothing is morally indefensible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Mark Clark Date: 03 Mar 03 - 03:22 PM Thanks, Beccy. I don't expect that everyone will adopt my own point of view, only that they come to an independent opinion based on information, not emotion, rhetoric or misinformation. It's clear that you've put some effort into arriving at your view and I can respect that. I share your view of Hussein and your desire to have him removed from power, I just don't think a preemptive attack is the only way to get that accomplished. As to the legitimacy of a preemptive strike on Iraq, what would you say constitutes legitimacy in a case like this? Can we make a check list of things that, if true, require that the U.S. preemptively attack a country? - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Charley Noble Date: 03 Mar 03 - 03:36 PM Here's someone I can identify with, and I applaud his action. It's copied in full from the New York Times but I'm not very reliable at making a link: February 27, 2003 U.S. Diplomat's Letter of Resignation The following is the text of John Brady Kiesling's letter of resignation to Secretary of State Colin L.Powell. Mr. Kiesling is a career diplomat who has served in United States embassies from Tel Aviv to Casablanca to Yerevan. "Dear Mr. Secretary: I am writing you to submit my resignation from the Foreign Service of the United States and from my position as Political Counselor in U.S. Embassy Athens, effective March 7. I do so with a heavy heart. The baggage of my upbringing included a felt obligation to give something back to my country. Service as a U.S. diplomat was a dream job. I was paid to understand foreign languages and cultures, to seek out diplomats, politicians, scholars and journalists, and to persuade them that U.S. interests and theirs fundamentally coincided. My faith in my country and its values was the most powerful weapon in my diplomatic arsenal. It is inevitable that during twenty years with the State Department I would become more sophisticated and cynical about the narrow and selfish bureaucratic motives that sometimes shaped our policies. Human nature is what it is, and I was rewarded and promoted for understanding human nature. But until this Administration it had been possible to believe that by upholding the policies of my president I was also upholding the interests of the American people and the world. I believe it no longer. The policies we are now asked to advance are incompatible not only with American values but also with American interests. Our fervent pursuit of war with Iraq is driving us to squander the international legitimacy that has been America's most potent weapon of both offense and defense since the days of Woodrow Wilson. We have begun to dismantle the largest and most effective web of international relationships the world has ever known. Our current course will bring instability and danger, not security. The sacrifice of global interests to domestic politics and to bureaucratic self-interest is nothing new, and it is certainly not a uniquely American problem. Still, we have not seen such systematic distortion of intelligence, such systematic manipulation of American opinion, since the war in Vietnam. The September 11 tragedy left us stronger than before, rallying around us a vast international coalition to cooperate for the first time in a systematic way against the threat of terrorism. But rather than take credit for those successes and build on them, this Administration has chosen to make terrorism a domestic political tool, enlisting a scattered and largely defeated Al Qaeda as its bureaucratic ally. We spread disproportionate terror and confusion in the public mind, arbitrarily linking the unrelated problems of terrorism and Iraq. The result, and perhaps the motive, is to justify a vast misallocation of shrinking public wealth to the military and to weaken the safeguards that protect American citizens from the heavy hand of government. September 11 did not do as much damage to the fabric of American society as we seem determined to so to ourselves. Is the Russia of the late Romanovs really our model, a selfish, superstitious empire thrashing toward self-destruction in the name of a doomed status quo? We should ask ourselves why we have failed to persuade more of the world that a war with Iraq is necessary. We have over the past two years done too much to assert to our world partners that narrow and mercenary U.S. interests override the cherished values of our partners. Even where our aims were not in question, our consistency is at issue. The model of Afghanistan is little comfort to allies wondering on what basis we plan to rebuild the Middle East, and in whose image and interests. Have we indeed become blind, as Russia is blind in Chechnya, as Israel is blind in the Occupied Territories, to our own advice, that overwhelming military power is not the answer to terrorism? After the shambles of post-war Iraq joins the shambles in Grozny and Ramallah, it will be a brave foreigner who forms ranks with Micronesia to follow where we lead. We have a coalition still, a good one. The loyalty of many of our friends is impressive, a tribute to American moral capital built up over a century. But our closest allies are persuaded less that war is justified than that it would be perilous to allow the U.S. to drift into complete solipsism. Loyalty should be reciprocal. Why does our President condone the swaggering and contemptuous approach to our friends and allies this Administration is fostering, including among its most senior officials. Has "oderint dum metuant" really become our motto? I urge you to listen to America's friends around the world. Even here in Greece, purported hotbed of European anti-Americanism, we have more and closer friends than the American newspaper reader can possibly imagine. Even when they complain about American arrogance, Greeks know that the world is a difficult and dangerous place, and they want a strong international system, with the U.S. and EU in close partnership. When our friends are afraid of us rather than for us, it is time to worry. And now they are afraid. Who will tell them convincingly that the United States is as it was, a beacon of liberty, security, and justice for the planet? Mr. Secretary, I have enormous respect for your character and ability. You have preserved more international credibility for us than our policy deserves, and salvaged something positive from the excesses of an ideological and self-serving Administration. But your loyalty to the President goes too far. We are straining beyond its limits an international system we built with such toil and treasure, a web of laws, treaties, organizations, and shared values that sets limits on our foes far more effectively than it ever constrained America's ability to defend its interests. I am resigning because I have tried and failed to reconcile my conscience with my ability to represent the current U.S. Administration. I have confidence that our democratic process is ultimately self-correcting, and hope that in a small way I can contribute from outside to shaping policies that better serve the security and prosperity of the American people and the world we share." My apologies in advance for posting something as lenghty as this, but I'm always hopeful that someone may read it all the way through, may change a mind (unlikely), may provide more justification for why you're questioning the Bush Administration's "splendid little war." Got to run; someone's knocking on my door! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:21 PM I've taken a few days off from this sort of thread. Reading it through, the thing that really strikes me is that so many of us posting here seem to think the way to carry on an exchange about something as important as this is to throw out repetitive insults and sneers. The useful thing about this kind of discussion is that it makes it possible to understand the way people are actually thinking, when they don't see an issue the same way as we do - and there aren't all that many chances to do that. Sometimes we can present people who are still undecided with facts or interpretations of fact that they might have missed; but the truth is, we aren't too likely to convince people, who have come to a settled view, to change their minds. And there's room in there for teasing each other too, when we are dealing with people we have got to know. But bad tempered brawling is a waste of time and space; and more important, it destroys a valuable opportunity to widen our understanding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Mark Clark Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM And now I see we have Charlotte Beers leaving the State Department as well. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Mark Clark Date: 04 Mar 03 - 02:38 AM I received a very interesting link that I thought might also be interesting to folks in this thread. The link is to a set of notes, not really prepared for publication, by Laurie Garrett, prize-winning author and science writer for Newsday. The link is to Garrett's notes from the recent WEF in Davos, Switzerland. They were posted to a list by Adam Davis, Director, EPRIsolutions Environment Division. Garrett's notes are just that and don't really include a point of view or proposal for any action. For that reason, and because of the reputation of Ms. Garrett, I thought folks here might like to add her observations to their own background files. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: DougR Date: 04 Mar 03 - 04:55 PM So the rest of the world doesn't like us, huh Mark? So when is that big news? I read the opinion piece you posted and saw very little new in it. Heck when thousands of our on citizens march against our government in our own country, what difference does it make that we are not liked in Timbucktu? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Bobert Date: 04 Mar 03 - 06:52 PM Ahhhh, what we are beginning to see here, Doug, is "democracy" fighting back. And, yeah, your guy draped himself in the flag and did a PR number on Congress and got his resolution, but this one ain't over yet 'cause when one democracy falls down (ours) another one comes in to pick it up (Turkey's). And, yeah, related to a question/comment you made on another thread, a lot of folks are starting to see Bush as the emperior with no pants from his policies that are across the board anit-human and driven by greed and a thirst to control. So, yeah, it's hard for me to see much that he does with which I find much agreement. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: TIA Date: 04 Mar 03 - 10:25 PM Just got this from my mother. Use it if you wish. Ignore it if you wish. "Bruce Andrews, retired professor of political science sent Dan and me these e-mail addresses with a request to e-mail these delegations at the UN requesting that they do everything they can to stop the war. A political scientist friend of his sent Bruce the addresses with this note: "I just spoke with France's UN office. The are BEGGING us to flood their offices and the other UN offices with emails to STOP the WAR. France needs to know that many Americans are with them on this. Please forward this to everyone you can. The UN email addresses are listed below for the Security Council." france-presse@un.int, rusun@un.int, chinamission_un@fmprc.gov.cn, uk@un.int, bulgaria@un.int, info@cameroonmission.org, guinea@un.int, mexico@un.int, syria@un.int; chile@un.int, contact@germany-un.org spain@spainun.org Thanks for considering this, Mom" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Oldguy Date: 04 Mar 03 - 10:45 PM Tia: Is too much indulgence dimming your intellectual casapity? The first quote is from a warmonger like me. I will let you guess who would issue the second quote. How about those human sheilds aborting thier paid vacations in Iraq? Bloody ungrateful I'd say. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:48 AM Mark- Thanks for posting your links. You know, folks, more thoughtful comments would be welcome here instead of the easy sniping. Yes, this is a serious world crisis that the Bush Administration is initiating, and gambling that they can manage, and I'm convinced it will be seen as a major turning point in our foreign policy. Looks like March 15th is the next best demonstration to make our voices heard. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: catspaw49 Date: 05 Mar 03 - 10:26 AM In a piece of related news, it now appears that Cnada will be stepping in to lend their support to the Bush administration. This just in: CANADA JOINS THE U.S. In WAR ON TERRORISM Canada has offered to help the US in the war on terrorism. They have pledged 2 battleships, 6000 troops and 10 fighter jets. Unfortunately, with the current exchange rate, that comes out to 2 canoes, a Mountie and a couple of flying squirrels. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Beccy Date: 05 Mar 03 - 11:10 AM Human Rights Watch links Here's another informative link for those of you willing to read up on Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Beccy Date: 05 Mar 03 - 11:12 AM One more Iraq link- Amnesty International's report on Iraq Beccy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: DougR Date: 05 Mar 03 - 11:33 AM I agree that it is a world crisis, Charlie, but what I don't understand is why so many people blame Bush instead of Saddam for causing it! Bush and Blair are only trying to get the U.N. to get off it's duff and enforce the resolutions they so seriously adopt in the Security Council. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: TIA Date: 05 Mar 03 - 12:05 PM DougR, I can only speak for myself, but I do not blame Bush for starting the crisis. However, I do not agree with the means that Bush and Blair are proposing to use to end it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Date: 05 Mar 03 - 01:07 PM DougR-because no problem was apparent until Bush started talking about regime change. No one had heard a peep about Iraq in four or five years, then all of a sudden Bush needs to eliminate this horrible menace. The fact that he did it before election time, and that many people think the war talk helped his party out, raises suspicion, as does the fact that the economy continues to suffer. It seems a lot like he's doing it for political gain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Casual Observer Date: 05 Mar 03 - 01:20 PM No one heard a peep out of Iraq in four years because they were too busy talking about 1)Monica and 2)the "stolen" election. Just because a nation peeps and no one listens, does it mean they didn't peep at all? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: GUEST,Oldguy Date: 05 Mar 03 - 01:27 PM The antiwar protestors do not want to hear about the torture that goes on in Iraq wile instectors inspect. Vignettes like this make them grow silent: "Men belonging to Feda'iyye Saddam came to the house in al-Karrada district and found his wife, children and his mother. Um Haydar was taken to the street and two men held her by the arms and a third pulled her head from behind and beheaded her in front of the residents. The beheading was also witnessed by members of the Ba'ath Party in the area. The security men took the body and the head in a plastic bag, and took away the children and the mother-in-law. " Um Haydar was one of the lucky ones because she was not raped, tortured and forced to watch her childern being tortured and killed before being beheaded. They must have been in a hurry. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. A good doctrine for monkeys. Old Guy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Mar 03 - 04:26 PM Seems anti-war protesters can't even take it to the mall. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Mark Clark Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:57 PM Beccy, Thanks, I read your links and I agree completely that the treatment of people in Iraq is intolerable. It is shameful that such treatment is allowed to continue. While I was at the Human Rights Watch site, I typed the word torture into the search box and learned that besides Iraq, according to HRW, there is also torture being conducted in Afghanistan, Algeria, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Chechnya, Chile, China, Congo, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ingushetia, Iran, Israel, Ivory Coast, Kashmir, Kenya, Macedonia, Mexico, Nigeria, Peru, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Sierra Leone, Tunisia, Turkey, Uzbekistan and Vietnam. Not only that but the U.S. is being accused of torture as well and is being asked to prove that the accusations are false. My data collection took some time so I haven't researched the other atrocities but I have no doubt they are widely practiced as well. I've even heard U.S. officials argue publicly that torture should be permitted on those detainees not protected by the U.S. Constitution as an effective means of gaining intelligence. Just because a practice is widespread, doesn't mean I think it should be allowed to continue, but I do wonder—if that is the reason for a preemptive attack—how we will muster the resources to conquer each of the countries listed. Will the U.K. join us in the effort? Who else is on board? Will we conquer each of them in turn, as Doug has suggested or will we conquer them two or more at a time? I'd really like to see the thread participants collaboratively draw up a list of grievances that, taken together, constitute a mandate for preemptively attacking another country—any country. I think everyone here has a piece of the list. Let's see if we can put it all together. I mean, if we, who are all friends and play the same music, can't agree… who can? - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Forum Lurker Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:48 PM The U.S has ADMITTED to using torture, and to turning suspects over to countries notorious for torture. This is one matter in which we can't even pretend to the moral high ground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Do u think the a war on Iraq is legit? From: Padre Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:54 PM Yes |