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BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 May 04 - 01:34 PM Sorry I didn't look in here before. Could it be the fact that they've found some other poor sod to put in the place of the assassinated "leader," and that poor guy is supposedly leading a "sovereign Iraqi government" in six weeks' time? I don't envy him being the one Bremer pinned the tail on. And then there's this little tidbit:
"We have a hundred detainees (who were) senior leaders of the former regime, including Saddam Hussein, Tareq Aziz and Ali Hasan al-Majid," lawyer Salam Chalabi, the tribunal's director general, said on arrival at Kuwait airport. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Amos Date: 19 May 04 - 01:56 PM I hyope they don't announce the date and place of transferring Saddam and his hundred men. They're likely to be liberated by a sudden raid, Robin Hood style. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 19 May 04 - 02:53 PM the russian hostages freed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 19 May 04 - 04:42 PM terrorism? suicide bombers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,Ed Date: 19 May 04 - 05:30 PM It has been over 24 hrs. and..... DonMeixner hasn't told us what we're suppossed to be guessing at! Sorry, never much liked guessing games. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: DonMeixner Date: 19 May 04 - 05:52 PM Hi Ed, You are right I haven't. I have been at odds to ask the question myself because I'm sure it will be a hot button issue. But here goes. There is documented use of a nerve agent as well as mustard gass in Iraq by unidentified isnsurgents from undifined places and it didn't seem to raise enough dust in the forum to rate its own thread. Possible proof of the existence of those famous and undiscovered WMDs. Personally I think it is a big deal and it bumps this mess up another notch. Where do we go from here? No clue, home I hope. I prefered all the other answers to this one believe me. And I could have sworn I made this almost very same reply last night. Seems to have gotten lost in the electrons. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 06:07 PM from the BS: Torture thread- "Ah, but early on in the war, a STOCKPILE of empty shells for chemical weapons ( WMDs) was found, and all the anti-war folks said that that did not count, since there were no chemicals in them. Now we have the chemicals, and the line is that anyone could have made them. Seems like a flaw in the logic, somehwere. If the hardware is not the weapon, and the chemicals are not the weapon, what is? " It does not appear to matter what WMDs are found, or even used. There are those who have decided that the US is wrong, regardless of whatever happens. Some of them lost a lot of money ( present and future) when Saddam was removed. Some just do not like the US. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: dick greenhaus Date: 19 May 04 - 06:40 PM The shell that was fired is, more properly, a Weapon of Minimal Destruction. Sorry about the confusion. Or does W really think that Iraq was planning on shelling us? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 06:43 PM ANY chemical weapon, by definition, is a WMD. Sorry Dick, that is the way it is. If someone uses a nuke on us, and it fizzles, I doubt if we will ignore it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 May 04 - 06:53 PM The report I heard about this (probably on NPR or BBC radio) concluded that the shell (containing sarin) was quite old, and probably overlooked when the weapons were destroyed after the 1991 war. The thought was that these shells number in the 10s or 100s, but don't amount to an arsenal of WMDs. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 07:00 PM What Hans Blix said "US Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said in Baghdad that two soldiers were treated for minor exposure to sarin, but no serious injuries were reported. He said he believed that insurgents who planted the explosive didn't know it contained the nerve agent" That is the trouble with not letting the Weapons Inspectors finish their job, in my opinion. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 07:01 PM Overlooked???? When the UN inspectors were doing such a wonderful job??????????? Either the inspectors were doing a good job, or not. The claim that we should have let them continue, in the face of blatent violations of the terms of the 91 ceasefire, is based on how competent they were. BUT THEY MISSED 10s or 100s OF SHELLS?????? SO All of you outy there concede that the inspectors were not capable of dealing with Saddam, and the US was entitles, nay, REQUIRED by international law in invade. Thank you for seeing the truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 07:07 PM Yes, but Bruce, as I have said before, it was not the US' responsibility to enforce the UN resoultions on their own. I see the UN have passed a resolution condemming the killing of those civilians in Gaza. Wanna invade? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 07:10 PM No, but as parties to the 91 ceasefire we did have obligations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Rapparee Date: 19 May 04 - 07:20 PM I'm not going to get into this, but here's a quote from "The Nation's" website: "In an October 2002 speech, Bush said Iraq had a "massive stockpile" of weapons of mass destruction. Vice President Dick Cheney claimed "there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction...that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us." In his famous presentation to the United Nations Security Council, Secretary of State Colin Powell declared, "Our conservative estimate is that Iraq, today, has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent."" From the article "WMDs gone MIA": "On Aug. 26, 2002, Vice President Cheney told the VFW, "Stated simply, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies and against us." On Dec. 2, Ari Fleischer told the White House press corps, "You've heard the president say repeatedly that he has chemical and biological weapons." On Jan. 7, 2003, Fleischer added, "We know for a fact that there are weapons there." Also in January, Rumsfeld declared, "There's no doubt in my mind that they currently have chemical and biological weapons." In his Feb. 8 radio address, Bush declared, "We have sources that tell us that Saddam recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons—the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have." Cheney added in March, "We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." On March 17, on the eve of war, President Bush told the nation "Intelligence … leaves no doubt that the Iraqi regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." So persuaded, America united behind the president and went to war. Something is terribly wrong here. It is impossible to believe the president would deliberately lie to the nation when he knew the full truth would be discovered at war's end in a few weeks. Either he was misled, or he was deceived, and, so, too, was Secretary of State Colin Powell. Who did it? Who was responsible for the intelligence failure, or the dishonest use of selected intelligence, or the conscious and deliberate deceit of a president and secretary of state? Where are the weapons? We have searched 300 sites and arms dumps and found not one shell. If Saddam had the weapons, why did he not use them? If he destroyed them before the war, as Rumsfeld now argues, he fulfilled the terms of Resolution 1441 and could have saved himself by showing UN inspectors where and how he did it. Why would Saddam let himself, his family, and his regime perish protecting weapons he either no longer had or did not intend to use? Is it possible Iraq never had that vast arsenal of anthrax, VX, sarin, and mustard gas we were led to believe? Did the intelligence agencies fail us, or did someone "cook the books" to meet the recipe for an imperial war? It is time Congress investigated the Office of Special Plans, set up in the Pentagon to sift and interpret all intelligence and placed under neoconservative super-hawk, Paul Wolfowitz." This last is from "The American Conserative" (June 30, 2003) and was written by Pat Buchanan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 07:29 PM let me see... we went in in 2003... the ceasefire was 1991... 12 years and the inspectors couldn't find 100s of shells. These are not rifle cartridges, you know. I think if they had not been HIDDEN they might have seen them. If they looked. If they were not in some palace. If they were not manufactured after the war, in violation of the ceasefire and the UN resolutions. But I guess Saddam had to spend all that oil money on something, since he did not want to feed his people. Oh- I forgot- he had to replace the WMD that he had used on his own people... Tens of thousands, but since they were only Kurds, we don't want to mention anything about them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 07:50 PM "let me see... we went in in 2003..." and it is now 1 full year later. Remember that this weapon were not 'found'. And no amount of killing and torture of Iraqis, nor the apprehension of the people on 'The Deck Of Cards', has yet found any. I was always certain that there was the possibility of a few 'strays' turning up, and I certainly hope that they will be few and far between. But it is in no way indicitive of the "... conservative estimate is that Iraq, today, has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent." One swallow doesn't make a summer, Bruce. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 07:56 PM "Remember that this weapon were not 'found'. And no amount of killing and torture of Iraqis, nor the apprehension of the people on 'The Deck Of Cards', has yet found any." Ah, but early on in the war, a STOCKPILE of empty shells for chemical weapons ( WMDs) was found. and the chemicals are so easy that anyone can make them, remember? If every time some evidence is found, the answer is that this is not all, I will agree- it is not all. But that does not mean that it is not there, just that we have not found it, or it was removed or destroyed in the time that the UN gave Saddam. Do you feel comfortable knowing that SOMEWHERE there may be 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons, NOT under the control of any responsible party? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 08:05 PM "Do you feel comfortable knowing that SOMEWHERE there may be 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons, NOT under the control of any responsible party?" Of course I don't, Bruce, but I think our energies (and tax money) would have been better spent actually looking for them, rather than blasting in there, and creating the situation that we have now, of nobody knowing anything, anymore. Iraq could be brimming with WMDs at this stage, for all we know. The 'biggies', I mean. They may not have been there before we went in. Using sledgehammers to strike nails, again. That's what we might get for our haste in turning the place into anarchy. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 08:08 PM We SHOULD have gone in when he started to gas the Kurds- but the UN would not have stood for that. Just like they withdrew their forces when confronted by the situation in Rwanda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 08:13 PM Why didn't the US not do the Rwanda gig on their own, then? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 08:15 PM WE SHOULD HAVE! Why don't you ask that of the administration in power at the time? I would like to know the answer, as well. The anti-war folks in the US can take credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, but who gets the credit for 800,000 dead Rwandans? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 08:42 PM I have no party affiliations in the US, beardedbruce; one can be as bad as the other, if you ask me. I don't like the hyporicy of certain standpoints; that's mostly my problem with all of this... Not quite off topic, but interesting, all the same: Bush abandons his 'favourite son' Chalabi Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: dianavan Date: 19 May 04 - 09:53 PM beardedbruce - Sarin can be made by anyone with the desire to make it. I'm not sure you can blame Saddam for this incident. He's not in power anymore. If you want to blame, maybe you should blame the people who are now in control of Iraq. I haven't seen them turn up any evidence of stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons. Besides that, there are plenty of other countries who have WMD. The U.S. and Israel included. The source of that sarin could have come from anywhere. Just because it was discovered on Iraqi soil doesn't mean it was an Iraqi weapon. Any terrorist group from anywhere could have made it. I too am worried for the safety of the coalition forces but I think the damage from nerve gas is significantly lower than the nervous disorders that have resulted from fatigue, trauma, emotional stress and immoral behaviour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 May 04 - 10:50 PM beardedbruce, you're grasping at straws. You certainly drew some screwy conclusions from what I posted and put words in there that I never said. I can easily imagine a single large cache of this stuff existing and having been missed. I can imagine a single large cache of this being hidden by Saddam. But of all of the things he'd choose to keep caches of, is this the one he'd bet the nation on? I think everyone missed it during the inspections the first time round, and they never had a chance to discover it the second time round, cause your boy Dubya decided to shoot first and ask questions later. The anti-war folks in the US can take credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, but who gets the credit for 800,000 dead Rwandans? I think you're certifiably insane. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 04 - 04:29 PM dianavan: I do not blame Saddam for THIS incident- I blame him for the stockpile of chemical projectiles that were found in the initial invasion. NONE of the other countries with WMD signed a ceasefire, under the condition that they eliminated all WMD. ( Well, we will NOT talk about Korea- the ceasefire does not mention WMD) Or should I talk about the 17 UN resolutions? Stilly: Try reading what I write, instead of what you want to have had me write. You may think me whatever you want- but I was here in the 60's. If ANYONE in uniform is a babykiller, then the anti-war folks are guilty of murder many times over. I will consider their arguements that they just wanted the poor cambodians to enjoy the country air. Remember the domino theory? seems to have been true, regardless of what people wanted to believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: 42 Date: 20 May 04 - 05:45 PM How could anyone think that any party in charge of chemical weapons is "responsible"? It's either ours or theirs? We're right and responsible and they're subversive and malignant? i shiver at the thought. j |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: dianavan Date: 20 May 04 - 10:29 PM Beardedbruce - all the better reason to bring back the UN weapons inspectors to finish the their job. Seems the U.S. left out alot of important information about the discovery of the sarin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: fat B****rd Date: 21 May 04 - 03:24 AM ........nobody's responded to the original thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 May 04 - 11:16 AM beardedbruce, you need to change your name to Archie Bunker.
This is a logical fallacy of ad hominem variety (tu quoque), beardedbruce. I was here in the 60's too, pal, and you couldn't get away with that argument then just as you can't get way with it now. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 24 May 04 - 11:17 AM And why not? Just because you don't want to believe that your actions could cause any harm? IF the anti-war folks were effective, the policies that they pushed the US into were at least in part responsible for the Pol Pot takeover of Cambodia. So you claim that the anti-war folks had no effect on US policies? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 May 04 - 11:48 AM No, I claimed that anti-war activists and deaths oversees are not linked in the way your "logical fallacy" tries to link them. You're not arguing 2 + 2 = 4, you're arguing 1 + 5 = orange. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 May 04 - 11:49 AM overseas |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,noddy Date: 24 May 04 - 12:00 PM YESTERDAY! I win. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 24 May 04 - 06:16 PM "If ANYONE in uniform is a babykiller, then the anti-war folks are guilty of murder many times over." I seem to have made too large a logical step for some of you. 1. If ANYONE in uniform is guilty of being a baby-killer, just by being in uniform, since some people in uniform were baby killers ( and prosecuted for it), then if I show that some members of the anti-war group were murderers, I can claim that they all are. 2. It is recorded historical fact that when Jane Fonda went to Hanoi, and was televised with 5 POWs, they slipped her peices of paper with their names and serial numbers. She then gave those papers to the North Vietnamese officer, and 4 of the 5 POWs were killed- the 5th survived and returned home at a later date. This was the act of a traitor, and was tantamont to murder. case stated. Care to show a logical error? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 May 04 - 11:48 PM beardedbruce, you didn't research this, obviously, or you never would have posted that old saw. It makes your entire argument all that much weaker that you can't even cite facts. The Snopes pages doesn't paint Jane as very bright:
This said, you need to read a little farther:
"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, one of the servicemen mentioned in the 'slips of paper' incident. Carrigan was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967 and did spend time in a POW camp. He has no idea why the story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda." SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 07:55 AM "It is also undeniable that some American soldiers came to harm as a direct result of Fonda's actions, an outcome she should reasonably have anticipated." OK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 08:34 AM Selective memory syndrome eh beardedbruce, what about the rest of the crap you quoted? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 08:41 AM I am checking to see what eveidence exists on BOTH sides of the disputed point. I will state, however, that my logic is shown valid. My item 2 is in dispute- sobeit. But you cannot tell me that there were NO ACTS of violence or assult by the anti-war people. Not and tell the truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 08:53 AM The disputed point is really the central pillar of your post and it has been shown to be crap, accept it. Your logic hold no water in my view, your wording is as twisted as your poetry, rambling and incoherant tripe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 09:18 AM Sounds like I hit a nerve- Who did you kill???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 09:45 AM I have never lifted a weapon in anger in my life, any suffering I may have caused is nothing I think compared to the suffering caused by your dreadful poetry. My nerves are fine by the way, thank you for asking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 09:47 AM We could allways broadcast your poems 24 hours a day on Iraqi radio and TV, the militents would soon give in, a bloodless vistory, but would that then count as mass torture? Even you can't be that cruel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 09:55 AM Well, I could... But will you concede that, logically, if I can produce even ONE act of murder by the anti-war people, my statement is LOGICALLY valid? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 10:04 AM Logic is highly overrated look at the harm spock did to countless Star Trek scipts, but go on then dig up this murder you keep going on about, at the very least it'll stop you from producing any more poems for a while. Then once you have that bee out of your bonnet you can jump in the truck and head off to collect your latest copy of redneck monthly, hope you have fun coloring in the pictures. But one murder no matter how brutal it might be still bares no comaparison to the thoughtless killings at the wedding in Iraq that we are now seeing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 10:21 AM I thought it was acts of murder 'many times over', beardedbruce? Your argument is only valid for that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 10:24 AM We were talking about 2 million cambodians, but I guess they are not people to you....Wrong ethnic group. And I may be conservative, but hardly a redneck. Talk about crap.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 May 04 - 10:25 AM No, Beardedbruce, because you were claiming hundreds of thousands of lives were lost due to the acts of anti-war activists. One does not prove your bogus "theory." And violent anti-war activists are enough of an oxymoron, just as the murderous acts of right-to-lifers, that they require a separate category for their sanctimonious acts, that of criminal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: el ted Date: 25 May 04 - 10:26 AM 99 |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: el ted Date: 25 May 04 - 10:27 AM 100 I thank you. |
