Folk Music in U.S.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:25 PM

Um, I think we are in agreement Rapaire. We can come up with a lot of examples of "American" folk music. My point is, we shouldn't just limit "American folk" to mean Woody and Pete, any more than we should limit it to Anglo American music.

I--chris'nightbird'childs--are you serious about there not being any folk music in Philly? Are you new to the area?

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:38 PM

It's here, but people don't necssarily think "Folk Music" when they think of Philly...

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:50 PM

I think of a cheesesteak sandwich, actually.

Chabteyranger, yes.

And I still believe many more people enjoy good old 60s style folk music for entertainment, rather than tradtional analyzing.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 07:06 PM

; )

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: curmudgeon
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 07:10 PM

Martin, both approaches are possible simultaneously. When I have time and when this room gets less cold, I'll PM you -- Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 07:15 PM

That is almost apples and oranges Martin. A lot more people Britanny Spears than folk revival music and traditional music combined.   

I'm not sure why we even need to compare. Each has its own fans, and each has some connectivity. Who gives a rats tuches how many fans of each there are? As long as we enjoy it, does it really matter?   I don't think any of us started following folk music in all of its diverse forms because we simply wanted to be part of an in crowd.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 07:30 PM

Well, I automatically think Irish music (especially in the coal mining areas, but all over PA, really), Philly Folk Festival, the Polish-American String Band, Slav tamburitzans, the Scots Irish along the Susquehanna & the canal builders who have left a lot of musicians in their wake, the German folk music of the Central Market & Lancaster that has always drawn folkies to it, even if just as a place of residence, Philly soul, jazz, doo wop, right on down today's neo-soul, a ton of labor music, all that church camp music from the summer church camps up in the Appalachian mountains, SUsquehanna Folk Music Society, Philly Folk Song Society, bars like Warmdaddys...

I certainly think folk music when I think of Philly & it's environs!

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:00 PM

I agree with Rapaire that

"American folk music has taken from so many sources that it is developing (if it hasn't already) its own genre. Peel back the covers and you'll find African, Irish, Scots, English, German, Dutch, Cuban, American Indian, Subcontinent Indian, Vietnamese, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, Caribbean, Hmong, Polynesian, and Welsh influences -- among a host of others."

However, the point I tried to made in my previous post was that few people beyond [many]people at Mudcat would think of most of those forms of music as being part of the 'Folk' category.

I'm intrigued by Guest [from Minnesota} theories about the 'hidden' meanings of the 'world' music or 'roots' music..

Since everyone lives in the world and everyone has roots, these labels must have been created for a reason...

I thought that they were created to lump all music that didn't fit into any other category into one generic category, and not because of racism...

I've seen Spanish music {from Spain} in some world music bins, and I assumed that this music was performed by Anglo people.

But maybe it depends on what is meant by 'Anglo'...

But Guest from Minnesota, I'd agree with you that racism is a definite factor in the categorization of music as classical...

But that's another subject.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: s&r
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:15 PM

We once went to a wonderful classical concert featuring Ravi Shankar and Zakir Hussain

Stu

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:22 PM

Thread drift occuring..

s&r,

I'm assuming that Ravi Shankar and Zakir Hussain played non-Anglo music at this wonderful classical concert that you attended...and I'm sure it was wonderful and maybe it was classical in their cultures..

but would most people think of that music when they refer to 'classical music'??

I don't think so...

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:24 PM

On second thought, maybe my last comments aren't thread drift at all, but pertinent to the discussion of what folk 'is'.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:13 PM

Hi Azizi,

I'm tired and on my way to bed now, but my thing is to ask not 'what' folk is, but 'who' are the folks in 'folk'?

Is yesterday's 'folk' transformed sans it's cultural and racial baggage magically when it is deemed 'world' or 'roots' music instead?

Are the terms 'world' music and 'roots' music mere euphemisms for what was formerly Europe's and British North America's (ie 'non-Western') 'exotic other'?

For the sake of the discussion, here is a link to an article by David Byrne of Talking Heads fame, from the late 90s, when these new 'music' terms were being coined by white English men (like David Byrne), to distinguish the music of non-Anglo music from the music of mostly of African and Asian cultures that had immigrant communities from the former colonies in Britain:

David Byrne on 'World' Music

So you get some idea of where I'm coming from, I belong to a radio network here in MN that ISN'T the corporado radio network that sends out 'Prairie Home Companion' every week (and discontinued some great folk music programs this month, when it gobbled it's biggest indie public radio competitor in Minnesota). I belong to the Minnesota radio network that calls itself (to distinguish ourselves from--spit--Minnesota Public Radio, or MPR) IPR, or Independent Public Radio.

Our latest mottos include: "Radio so diverse, even we don't understand half of it" and "Still programmed by people not programs".

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:16 PM

Well, actually, when I think of "classical music" I do think of Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, and the rest. But I also think of music for qin, zheng, and pipa; of the music of Samuel Ekpe Akpabot and Yunus al-Katib; of the singing of the mukhannathun, and even of the songs of the Yupiq and Inuit. True, my cultural background is European, but that does not prevent me from appreciating the music of other cultures (even if they are not to my personal taste).

Perhaps this has to do with a growing up in a multi-cultural neighborhood, I don't know.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:56 PM

It doesn't matter Ron, I was just saying what was on my mind... I always start these long threads don't I? What a troublemaker.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:25 AM

Thanks Guest [from Minneapolis] for the clicky to that article. It sounds like it will be interesting reading..

and, Guest, I greatly admire your station's positions on its programming...

Thanks also Rapaire for your comments.
And may I take the liberty of excerpting some of those comments [again]:

"My cultural background...does not prevent me from appreciating the music of other cultures... Perhaps this has to do with.. growing up in a multi-cultural neighborhood."

--
That's my vision for the Mudcat Cafe community {and, hopefully, the real world}.

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:42 AM

I just joined a minute ago after blundering into this site looking for more information on Reynardine. When I read that that you consider the blues, and other regional styles, folk, I joined. Oh, my God, I have found kindred spirits! Yippee!!
I was just described as a music geek for buying the new Sandy Denny five CD set, A Boxful of Treasures. I was not offended and decided that "music geek" was perfectly descriptive of my mental state.
I live in the Columbus, Ohio area. We are blessed with a wonderful public radio station, WCBE, which has a huge membership and supports all the different and fascinating varieties of folk music. WCBE also carries Toss the Feathers, Thistle and Shamrock, and Afropop Worldwide. Columbus also has the Dublin Irish Festival and lots of local music venues. We are only fifty miles from Northern Appalachia and have a strong fiddlin' and pickin' tradition.
Despite all this, I still feel somewhat isolated because I have an overwhelming tendency to enjoy research and discovering connections as well as listening and appreciating. I find I can kill entire conversations by wondering aloud if (for instance) Reynardine is an offshoot of the French Reynard the Fox tales (his teeth gleaming in the dark is one foxy clue) or telling someone the story of Tam Lin, that there is supposedly a map of the place the story occurred, and that Charles Vess even made an illustration...and by the way, you should see his "Corn God". I have seen what the expression "their eyes glazed over" means too many times, so I have kept most of this to myself. Furthermore, I am not a musician although I have a decent singing voice and played cello and viola when I was younger.
I also read the thread on weird instruments and thoroughly enjoyed it. Maybe I will take up a weird instrument and then nobody will be able to tell if I play well or badly.
I am glad this group exists and know that I will visit often.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:50 AM

What? You bought "A Boxful of Treasures"? Welcome to Mudcat 'GUEST'!!

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Teresa
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:02 AM

Oh, GuEST, you're going to love it here, then. Try putting the name of your favorite song in the search box, and you'll come up with all kinds of discussion about it's origins. :):)

I'm excited for you; welcome and hope to see some of your musings soon!

Teresa

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:09 AM

Welcome Guest from Columbus, Ohio!

I'm glad you found us!

I've been here for 5 months {I leave periodically to 'visit' the real world} and I can share with you that you'll find that this Mudcat community is resource rich and [largely] populated by postitive, interesting folks.

[And, um, Guest...You are going to chose a tag name right? 'Cause all these Guests writing & responding can be AWFULLY confusing...]

That being said, I'm sure we'll be 'seeing' each other again.

Relax, enjoy, learn, and share!

Peace,

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST,Libby
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:42 AM

I certainly did. I think Sandy Denny, not only because of her amazingly ethereal voice and her fantastic songwriting skills, was a tremendously seminal influence in bringing Celtic or Celtic-influenced music more into the mainstream. Of course, Richard Thompson and Fairport Convention, were instrumental in that, but it began with Sandy's influence.
I think, in the broadest sense, folk is alive, well, growing and developing. I am not talking about folk in the sense of the narrow Anglo-Saxon definition. We live in a tiny world, with information at our fingertips, so music and we are much better for it. Fifteen years ago, I would not have known about Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Liza Carty, Ali Farka Toure, or Tinariwen (compare his guitar work to the old blues artists for a totally mind-boggling experience)unless perchance I had inadvertantly bumped into an album at a shop. Then in America, we have wonderful singers like Iris Dement, groups like Nicklecreek, just to name two, that carry on the Anglo tradition. The blues are going strong. Bluegrass and Cajun are doing fine. There are people doing great stuff in crossover styles, like Mark Knopfler and Robert Plant, who are making us look at much of our own music in a new way. This is all going on in spite of the banal pop music culture that the record industry and radio promotes so heavily.
I heard something that was wonderful, and I took it for granted because this kind of thing is happening all the time, which is an indication that the condition of folk is alot healthier than we think. If you would have ever told me that I would enjoy listening to Ukrainian mandolin, I would have chuckled a bit, but Garrison Keillor introduced Peter Ostroushko to us through Prarie Home Companion and I was enchanted. It was fabulous and I would also call it folk.
Now if someone is looking for a popular resurgence of Pete Seeger, Phil Ochs, and Peter, Paul & Mary 6O's nites, it ain't gonna happen. That person might think the condition of folk in the US is deplorable.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 09:39 AM

One of the best pipers I know is Richard Mao -- Chinese-Canadian in ethnicity.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:03 AM

This thread is now way off topic.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:48 AM

OK Libby, point taken.
I'm a singer/songwriter in West Chester, PA. Originally from CT. I'm not pushing for any 'folk scare' revival, but I use my influences to do something different. That includes people as varied as Hank Williams, Sandy Denny, Robert Johnson, Nick Drake, Bob Dylan, Richie Havens, etc...

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:59 AM

Hi Martin - I'll try to bring it back on track:

"Within a fifty mile drive of my house are 6 or 8 regular venues for folk musicians, dozens of long-standing contests for amateurs of every stripe." (West Virginia)

"I think we get a distorted picture of the size and influence of their group on the UK as a whole because they are such a strong presence here within the Mudcat Cafe. However, when you think about it, the fact that one or two hundred folkies scattered throughout the UK all seem to know each other so well might indicate that they're NOT a significant subculture in British society as a whole."


Beg to differ you US folks - but there are a few more folkies than "one or two hundred" (Popagator) - though I think maybe that comment was "tongue in cheek" - if a little cheeky!
I know we're only a blip on the Earth landscape whereas the US is a rather large blot, but within a "fifty mile drive" seems excessive to me. Within a FIVE mile drive of my humble UK home there are at least 20 regular venues for folk musicians.

As for Mudcatters I went on a folk weekend break (this weekend) with 20 of my folk friends from just ONE of these venues and asked the question "Who knows of and contributes to the Mudcat Forum?" - Blank faces everyone - just me then.... Get the picture? Twenty-one dedicated folk performers living within a 5 mile radius, and only one knows of the existence of Mudcat. I'll leave you to do the maths and the extrapolations if you want to get some idea of the UK folk scene. Make some adjustments though; Sheffield is probably the folk hot-bed so to speak, unless other UK area reps want to argue?

God Bless America
Jim

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 11:09 AM

The "folk scare" of the 1960s is what has had a positive impact on folk music in America. When I perform, I throw in some old folk stuff like "Where Have All the Flowers Gone, Irene Goodnight, Worried Man, and people are into it. They know the words, sing along, have a good time, and are entertained. It's because commercial folk music hits are part of the American fabric. I get requests to do MTA, Tom Dooley, etc., but I will not exclusively do this type of folk music. But mixing it in will help you interact with your audience because even the casual fan knows these types of songs.

The best and truest folk music is what reaches the casual fan.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 11:16 AM

"I throw in some old folk stuff like "Where Have All the Flowers Gone"

If I were to dare to "throw in" stuff like "Where have all the flowers gone" I'd expect to get "thrown out". I like to thing folk music in the UK has matured somewhat

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 11:29 AM

"matured" to the point where it excludes songs?   Hardly sounds like a scene where people are made to feel welcome. I think I would walk out if something like that were to occur here in a U.S. club.

It is one thing to study folk music and to share some of the treasures contained in the tradition. To make someone feel unwanted because they feel that a song like "Where Have All the Flowers Gone" has meaning and deserves to be shared is simply ignorance.   ALL music has the ability to open doors.

Each year I attend the Old Songs Festival and one of the highlights is the nightly after-concert sing in the Dutch Barn.   People share a variety of songs - I've heard popular tunes like City of New Orleans mixed in with obscure sea chanties, Broadway show tunes, and great Appalachian ballads. The simple art of people SHARING music is a way to find the pure joy in folk music.

I hope that we never come to the point where we become exclusionary.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 11:41 AM

Guest, Jim. It's that type of snobbism that turns people off to folk music. Especially navel gazing so called folkies who are boring, play for themselves on a stage, and could care less what their audience wants.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 11:44 AM

You're right of course Ron - I was making a tongue-in-cheek comment to redress the balance of some (I hope) tongue-in-cheek comments made here about our little ol' folk scene here in the UK.

Our club welcomes all types, and all types of music. I wish I could say that of all clubs here in the UK though, but I can't. I support your views wholeheartedly.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 11:47 AM

"Where Have All the Flowers Gone", while somewhat bland, is a perfectly good folk-siong, or at least a perfectly good candidate for a folk-song, depending on your definition.

I never sing it myself, but I can. I will, if you don't behave!


A

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 11:48 AM

Martin, you describe what I call the "singer-songwhiner". However, I disagree when you say that they "could care less what their audience wants".   I believe that they truly believe audiences are interested in listening to their "therapy in song" sessions.

I have no problem with introspective songs, but there should be an element that the audience can relate too. The good writers can do that. Often singer-songwriters get so personal that they can leave an audience bewildered.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 11:49 AM

Martin - didn't mean to make it personal - sincere apologies if my comment offended. On Wednesday I'll be going to my local folk club and singing the current No 1 UK chart single. In my book, it's folk music (on this occasion at least). I might get some strange looks when I give it the visuals as well, but my back is broad.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 11:53 AM

No problem, Jim. No problem at all.

Ron, there are both types of navel-gazers. those who do care and those that don't care what an audience wants.

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:15 PM

On that point Martin, I'm often asked "What are you playing/singing tonight". My reply is always the same - "Don't know yet" The reason is - I always wait to try and gauge the audience, and what's gone before, in an effort to pick something that's going to suit.

As for navel-gazing, I'd need a mirror these days!

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: GLoux
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:07 PM

A good place to see folk music in the US is the Philadelphia Folk Festival. It has been going since the 1960s and is still going strong. The Philadelphia Folk Song Society puts on other events throughout the year. There are other Folk Song groups in the surrounding Philadelphia area, such as the Lansdowne Folk Song Society, Bucks County Folk Song Society. There is a West Chester Folk group. There are a few house concert groups such as Fortissimo and Musical Lairs. The Point, in Bryn Mawr, is right next to where the Main Point was and has a very busy calendar of events.

Plus, Mudcat Cafe is housed in West Chester, Sing Out! is up in Bethlehem, there is a bunch more stuff going on in the Wilmington/Newark DE area (Green Willow Folk Club, Brandywine Friends of Old Time Music, etc.).

And don't forget Gene Shay's folk radio show every Sunday night on 88.5 WXPN.

Plenty to hear, right in the Philadelphia area.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Folk Music in U.S.
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:54 PM

The best and truest folk music is what reaches the casual fan.

Dead on, Martin. Folk music should be the music of folks.