BS: Are SF fascist at heart

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 09:36 AM

England's difficulty was always Ireland's opportunity. Wasn't The Curragh full of German spies, though?

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,GUEST,GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 09:40 AM

a country where the church is as predominant a force as it is in the republic That's not Ireland 2005. It just isn't.

The same can be said for N.Ireland it is no longer a protestant state for a Protestant people, it just isn't.

To answer Ard and his words they just prove that Ireland will become a cold house for protestants. If that is the case why have a peace process at all.

I was not around in 1922 but I do understand the fears protestants had about being assimilated into a country under the influence of the catholic church. But then they were only dirty rotten prods and they deserve what happens to them, right Ard.

Where did we see that atttitude before and where did it lead us?

I suspose this type of discussion is healthy as it shows that prejudice is very much prevalent on either side. Along with a bit of self pity.


"I remember a boat which lay for a number of years in Carrickfergus harbour, it was named the Clyde Valley. this hulk was used in 1912 to carry German weapons for the UVF.
The Clyde Valley was to be refurbished by the loyalists and turned into a Museum, the project failed due to lack of funds, just pointing out that the loyalists wern`t too fussy were they obtained their arms."

Point being Ard? If you are trying to make comparisons you are way off think of the dates and when Germany and Great Britain become enemies.


"Belfast Unionist can blether all the liberal platitudes now, he like the resr of his RUC, B-Special, and Special Branch gangsters were enjoying a regime which was the envy of every tin-pot dictator in the world, can he deny the gerry-mandering and election rigging which was par for the course for these people?. "

Only poor catholics suffered! what a load of self pitying crap, working class of both sides suffered, get the hankies out for goodness sake.

One thing for sure the nat/rep opinions expressed here are not representative of the majority in N.Ireland if it was we would never see an end to the "troubles".

Next you will actually believe that the IRA's mudering of 2000 people was not a criminal act. Considering the rest of Ireland considers them to be.

I have finnished here far too much whataboutery, but i have noticed not one answered my question.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Den
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:15 AM

Ok here goes. No Sinn Fein are not Fascists at heart. How's that, happy now. Its been said and explained many times (not in so many words) already in this thread. But you don't want to listen. What is the point of you asking the question to begin with. You weren't trying to fan the flames here were you? No I didn't think so. That would only happen if someone started a thread titled are Ulster protestants bigots at heart? Am I right?

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:34 AM

Question Den, was who would accept a united Ireland at the expense of anoter people i.e. the Jews and the other people hitler was exterminating. United Ireland at any cost?

Yes some ulster protestants are bigots at heart, I'm not afraid to admit to the failing of the group I am put in.

What about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:39 AM

BTW I was not trying to fan any flames, the issue arose out of the damage to Sean Russell's statue, by people from the republic of Ireland who do consider this to be a disgraceful part of SF history.

What do you call the people in the republic, are they more qualified to ask the question than someone from the North of Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:57 AM

My leanings in this are well known. My family were all nationalists, and that is how I have been raised with regard to the land of my grandparents. Unlike some in the country of my birth, I have always tried to get to the real meat of this issue. Mudcat, for me, has been instrumental in dispelling some of the "Plastic Pat" baggage that many Yanks have. Of late I have tried to simply listen in these debates, as I feel that this is best left to those that are living it. I am going to depart from that for a moment and offer some observations of this discussion.

First off to Belfast, N. Ireland. Whether by intent or accident, your thread title and initial post are a troll. They clearly show your bias. Any reasonable person knows full well that the Republicans were not Nazi's or sympathizers. It was the same set of circumstances that existed in 1798 with the French. The enemy of their oppressor offered assistance. The Irish Gaels have never given in to the English and their desire to eliminate their culture. Over the centuries they have made many alliances in an attempt to rid Ireland of their presence. This is because Great Britain had overwhelming resources to bring to bear.

Your comment about the people of the North seems legitimate. Catholics and Protestants seem to have adopted the desire to resolve this issue politically. In response to this, the IRA and SF have held a cease fire in the face of unending provocation. No matter how you try to couch it, it is the loyalist/unionist factions that try to torpedo the process. They, in their minds, have the most to lose. If that is not the case, then give us some facts. And don't try to shift the argument to something that happened 60 or 70 years ago.

The issue of the Catholic Church's influence in the South is legitimate, and the folks in the Republic have been addressing that in recent years. Having said that, the Republic has a history of being very tolerant of other religions. Hell, the Lord Mayor of Dublin was a Jewish man. It is about being Irish, and that is the nub of it. Where one says their prayers is less important than whether they see themselves as Irish or not.

BTW, the comment about accepting a United Ireland at the expense of the Jews was a ridiculous analogy. The status of the European Jewry was not an issue to the Nationalists. Most people in Europe, at the time of these approaches, had no idea what was happening to them. I would be surprised if even one Republican would accept a United Ireland in return for the lives of 6 million people. Whoever it was that suggested this in the above post is a shameless fool.

And it is always those that had the unfair advantage that want to paint the aggrieved peoples as "self pitying" when they have had enough of injustice. You are just afraid that these folks might treat you like they have been treated.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:11 PM

Belfast Loyalist goes into detail about IRA wrongdoings and mentions in passing Loyalist crimes, note he does not go into much detail about the UDA, LVF, AND UVF GANGSTERS.

He knows all about every atrocity carried out in the name of republicanism, every atrocity carried out by loyalist/Unionists is purely reactive.

The history of British/Unionist government in Ireland is ignored, he talks of the "ethnic cleaning" of the border Protestants, yet ignores the fact that in July and August 1969 in Belfast alone 1,820 families fled their homes, 1,505 of them Catholic..

He dosen`t seem to be aware that for generations have tolerated intolerance and vilification.

He should remember that at the start of the troubles the bombs at Dunadry, the Silent Valley, and McGurks Bar in which 14 Catholics lost their lives, all of which were carried out by loyalists, were attributed by the RUC to the IRA.

Nothing changes, Loyalist gangsters are released on bail for crimes including murder, the IRA sre blamed for the Northern Bank robbery without a shred of evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,belfas\n.Ireland\Ireland
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:54 PM

"No matter how you try to couch it, it is the loyalist/unionist factions that try to torpedo the process. They, in their minds, have the most to lose"

Show me were I am pro loyalist show me were I have supported any side of this crap that goes on.

I do not and never have supported any terrorist organisation and it is peoples own predjudism that has labelled me loyalist/unionist, I criticise SF so I must be a unionist, nonsense.

"Most people in Europe, at the time of these approaches, had no idea what was happening to them. I would be surprised if even one Republican would accept a United Ireland in return for the lives of 6 million people. Whoever it was that suggested this in the above post is a shameless fool"

Again I will point out Hitler said he would exterminate every Jew in Europe days before Sean Russell approached Germany for help. That begs the question that I asked, and it is more than reasonable.

"Belfast Loyalist goes into detail about IRA wrongdoings and mentions in passing Loyalist crimes, note he does not go into much detail about the UDA, LVF, AND UVF GANGSTERS."

Again another perfect example of ards bigotry, it would go against my being to support the loyalist crowd as it would to support any rep/nat crowd. BTW it was not a compare and contrast question as it was specific to the Sean Russell issue who had his staue attacked by people in the Irish republic, are they Unionists also ard?

Put the question like this, why did the people in Ireland destroy Sean Russels statue? Why did the Simon Wiesenthal center in Paris denounce SF/IRA contacts with Hitler as shameful? Were they loyalist? Are they biased? Or is it that because they live in the republic of Ireland their criticism can be accepted?

Catch youself on ard your the rep equivalent to the loyalist that see a rep/nat in every corner.


Thats why I affiliate myself with none of them as they are all bigoted. This your with us or against us that is very common among those who want to impose their will on others a trait found on both sides of the divide.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: GUEST,belfas\n.Ireland\Ireland
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:57 PM

Prosperity, Revolution and Famine
United Irishmen - up to 1798

Legislative independence had been won in 1782 but the Irish Parliament only had Protestant members and even those were effectively nominated by leading men of property. Attempts to reform the Parliament were entirely unsuccessful. The outbreak of the French Revolution in 1789 caused great excitement amongst the educated classes in Ireland.

Inspired by French Revolutionary ideals, a group of Protestants formed the Society of United Irishmen in Belfast in October 1791. The organisation sought an equal representation of all the people (which also meant giving equal political rights to Catholics), and a radical reform of the legislature. The movement became secret and revolutionary in 1795 when Defenders flooded into the organisation determined on revolt, and when Wolfe Tone successfully obtained the promise of French help. A major French expedition sailed from Brest in 1796 but, beset by storms in Bantry Bay in December, no landing was made.

Nevertheless, the sight of French warships caused great excitement and yet more people enrolled in the society. The government seized many of the leaders, hanged and transported Defenders, and raised a militia and yeomanry. Surviving United leaders decided on rebellion to begin on 23rd May, 1798.

Big Mick not the same as going to a country whos leader openly staed he would wipe out every Jew and indesirable in Europe, oh BTW note the Protestant link.

Subject: RE: BS: Are SF fascist at heart
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 04:47 PM

The catholic/Nationalist population in the time of the Unionist dictatorship was 35% rising to 40%, around the mid 1950s, the Nationalists had the large amount of 3 seats in Stormont.
The city of Derry 75% Nationalist was never able to have control of the Counncil due to discrimination and the Prime Minister Basil Brooke had earlier told Unionists that" he wouldn`t have one about the place" he was referring to Catholics. Every constituency was gerrymandered to ensure the Unionist remained solidly in control.
If the "vote early vote often" label was applied to Nationalists how come they never seemed to wangle control of Derry, at one time the Unionist population of West Belfast [Shankill Road area] was half as much again after each election, there was the famous quote by Eddie Mc`Ateer that"the dead arose and voted for many".