BS: Who do consider to be a genius?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 04:35 AM

"Count Basie Orchestra on triangle."
Intro & Outro.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 04:48 AM

Jim Skiathitis of the Atlantics - played lead guitar on Flight of the Surf Guitar and Bombora, 1963.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 05:17 AM

It also helps - if you die young.

Which mainly means that you will be remembered only for your best work and can't then mess-up any earlier promise shown - with later and less worthy efforts.

Jonny Kidd (and the Pirates).
Nick Drake
And seemingly anyone who wears a cardigan...

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: JennyO
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 05:48 AM

And seemingly anyone who wears a cardigan...

Only if his name is Les Barker, Shambles :-)

I had him at my folk club in April. The man is definitely a genius.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John O'L
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 06:19 AM

Val Doonigan wore a cardie didn't he?

Some say he was pretty good.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:18 AM

"Over there, Eric Clapton, ukulele.
Hi Eric!

and more from Intro, Outro

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:29 AM

I'll probably receive some flack over this, but I will proceed with my statement anyway ... Lennon and McCartney were brilliant, George Martin was the genius.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: s6k
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 09:11 AM

mark knopfler
cat stevens
william shatner

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 09:41 AM

Robin & Barry Dransfield, The Mathews Brothers, Vin, Jez & 1812

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 10:31 AM

Charlie Chaplin...incredible musician, wrote the score to all of his movies, perfectly capturing the mood of the action of each scene.

GS

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 11:39 AM

Some of these choices are just plain silly!! Let's get serious!! My first choice:- Franz Liszt!! Fantastic musical ear! Fantastic technique! Fantastic improviser! Fantastic composer! Arguably, the greatest sight-reader in history! Fantastic musical memory! And, probably, the most charismatic performer ever!

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 11:41 AM

Another overused term is "artist." A lot of rock musicians - and musicians in general - are referred to as artists, when, perhaps, their "artistry" should be considered more as a craft rather than an art. "Artist" should be reserved for those who truly are a cut above the rest, subjectively speaking, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 06:11 PM

William Shatner's genius, of course, is indisputable. It's so obvious that it hardly needs to be said.

Other than that....

Mozart. Michelangelo. Da Vinci. Beethoven. Lao-Tse. Bob Dylan. And quite possibly, Joni Mitchell.

And I'm sure there are many others. We are all potential geniuses, but not necessarily to be realized in this incarnation. Eventually, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 02:56 AM

Perhaps the term should be reserved for those of us who are prepared sacrifice the lives of all those who ever get close to them - in the selfish belief that their own life and work are all that matters? Being thought to be a genius - seems to be taken by some as permission or an excuse - to be a complete shit.

Perhaps we could live better without such people - rather than feeling we need to praise them. Appreciating excellence is one thing but perhaps not its pursuit at all human cost?

I don't claim that my old mum was a genius - but she was certainly a lot nicer to those around her than many of those who would be thought to be a genius.....She often wore a cardigan too.........

I hear that there is supposed to be a long-lost self-portrait of Leonardo Da Vinci - wearing a cardigan.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 03:03 AM

cardigan

Ah ha! At last I know what that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 03:26 AM

Genius is an overused term, IMO. Has no utility. Better we say who we like and why rather than declare individuals as 'geniuses'. IMO, and no offense to many of the fine folks already mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Noddy
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:37 AM

BOB GELDOF.

the way he manipulates the media to get attention to his causes is just superb.

GO BOB GO.

END POVERTY NOW.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM

Kudos to Lester Polfus!! (Les Paul) I will say he was genius inventor of electric guitars. I want to add Leo Kottke to the list too. I love his guitar genius.

G-Spot, I agree on Shawn Phillips with you. He is one genius to me, when it comes to lyrics and music.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 09:01 PM

Come in number 6 your time is up."George Martin the Genius of the Beatles?". I suppose that makes Roy Baker the genius of Queen or Chris Thomas the genius of Bob Marley and The Wailers and John Hammond the genius of Bob Dylan etc.etc.etc. Get real buddy! The genius is in the inception and conception of the work.The rest is just window dressing and a built up knowledge from learning and experience allows any Tom, Dick or George to do that. Sir George, great man that he is, could never have written a Beatle song and was fortunate to be along for the ride.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 09:37 PM

Well .... looks like I'm now flying into the flak.

If it wasn't for the genius (sorry, Bruce, overused but what the hell) of George Martin there certainly would not have been the beatles that we now know. He recognized something ... he took that something in, that something thrived from what he tilled ... He honed their skills, they learned frowm what he offered. The beatles sound is directly a result of GM.

He was the maestro, they were the brilliant students. Sorry, he was not a window dresser or just a promoter, he was a producer, who had a direct result in their sound.

In regards to John Hammond, did not influence Bob Dylan's sound, he heard it, recognised it's unique brilliancy, and he promoted it.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:28 PM

Wow!!!

Kinda depends on categories of music...

Ahhh, in the singer song-writer category there are so many who really fit the genius description: Woody, Dylan, Springsteen, Mark Germino, Shawn Phillips, Paul Seibel, Bob Martin, Joni Mitchell

Then ya got yer alt-country with Jerry Garcia and the Dead, James Lee Stanley, the guys in Poco, and Pure Prarie League...

Then the folkies like John Stewart, Pete Seegar and Joan Bias...

And country folks who wrote alot of their own stuff like Don Williams and Hank Williamns...

As fir rockers, Ian Anderson and John Lennon are in a class by themselves with folks like Pete Townsend, Paul McCartney, Gary Wright, Mick Jaggar in the 2nd tier...

But now when it come to blues? Different story... So many folks who I consider genious because they each found thier own sound and style: Eddie "Son" House, Willie Brown, Robert Johnson, Slim Harpo, Lightnin' Slim, Elmore James, Lightnin' Hopkins, Dan Pickett, Mama Thornton, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Muddy Waters....

But there's this last category of folks that kinda just flopped over where they flopped over like James" I Feel Good" Brown, an' like Johnny Horton, an' like Conwat Twitty, an like Jerry Lee Lewis....

Yeah, I'm sure that I isses quite a few of folks I would consider geniuos but these folks that I have mentioned all carved out their own territories and that, to me , is genious in music...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:56 PM

I see we are at loggerheads on this issue No6.Perhaps you are a "Prisoner" of the classical school that doesn't appreciate the initial idea as genius -only the finished article.Dylan seems to float your boat? Maybe, you should refer to his views on Lennon & McCartneys influence and agree with your guiding light. Sir George Martin, unassuming and modest fellow that he is, has reitterated my point numerous times and states "he simply got lucky with The Beatles and anything he did was under strict instruction from the geniuses". As a lifelong Beatlemaniac you will appreciate that I have accumulated vast amounts of information relating to the groups activities and have read every noteworthy book ever published. Suffice to say I know that George Martin is a very good record producer but what has he achieved beyond The Beatles? Lennon -Imagine.McCartney -Band On The Run.Sir George Martin?

Here endeth the sermon.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:02 PM

After seeing the impact he has had on the many here, I believe Martin Gibson is a genius.

GS

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:51 PM

That is a very cogent observation, G-spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 12:36 AM

Maybe an evil genius.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:10 AM

Suffice to say I know that George Martin is a very good record producer but what has he achieved beyond The Beatles? Lennon -Imagine.McCartney -Band On The Run.Sir George Martin?

Before he came into contact with The Beatles - he was producing some really fine comedy/novelty records for Peter Sellers etc. Some of these - like Right Said Fred (with Bernard Cribbins) have stood the test of time - along with many of The Beatles records.

Perhaps it is the creative sprark that we think of as genius? But we should also appreciate the abililty - in some like George Martin - to be able to improve upon the raw material. We do do appreciate that the creative members of The Beatle did learn a lot from George Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:43 AM

I do wish that people did not make these foolish claims to genius.

It makes it very hard for those of us who really are ------

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:43 AM

I would agree with Sidewinder, while there is good reason for George Martin to be called the 5th Beatle, who else did he turn into the Beatles? With all due respect to Martin, he did not write the melodies or the lyrics.

Sometimes people forget, it is always within that which appears as simple, that true genius lies. And as Bobert has noted the Blues is a prime example of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 03:19 AM

This 1971 interview with George Martin give an interesting background to how the Beatles records were produced.

http://www.aboutthebeatles.com/biography_georgemartin_mminterview.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:29 AM

Eric Taylor

Best songwriter i've heard for a long time. You yanks should give him a knighthood or something as a national treasure. Special ambassador(with guitar) to the United Nations.

At very least you should confer on him free guitar strings and entry to Disney Land, and family vouchers for Burger King.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 06:21 AM

I think George Martin is being typically reticent. All you have to do is look at the kinds of producers who turned the Beatles down, not to mention the rest of EMI, to see that Martin is one of a kind -- a traditional producer who was a classically trained musician and also the kind of person who could help Peter Sellers do his weird work (check out the Indian My Fair Lady parody years and years before A Day in the Life and Harrisonia generally).   He was the one who could carry the Beatles through to the next level. In anyone else's hands, they would have developed into a very good Dave Clark Five.

My humble opinion.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:32 AM

I found an old brass lantern in the sand. I started to polish it, rubbing it with an old rag. A genius appeared and offered me three wishes.

To be truly genius it's not enough to simply break new ground. Truly awful artists break new ground every day (it's required in today's academic art world where "different" trumps "good").

True genius requires that that new material affect others in a meaningful and new way.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM

The 5th Beatle? Wasn't that the Canadian policeman from out west who stood in for Paul McCartney after he got killed in the car accident? You know...the guy who won the McCartney lookalike contest and then disappeared off the face of the Earth?

Hmmmm.... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:50 AM

Flak, and now bandits at 10:00 o'clock.

Actually the real 5th beatle was some DJ out of New York (Murry the K). Wasn't it?

Peter T. explains things very well in his post... "In anyone else's hands, they would have developed into a very good Dave Clark Five."
Thank you Peter.


You have evidence on GM's influence .. listen to the Beatles last album ... Let it BE ... flat, no brilliance to it all, it certainly does not have that 'Beatles' sound. It is I must admit an excellent album in the chronicle of their history though ... anyway, GM had no influence at all, in fact he wasn't the producer.

As for what Bob say's .. well he has away with saying things ... read his book Chronicles ... he mentions his admiration of Frank Sinatra Jr. ... anyway, ya gotta luv that Bob.

To be honest, I'm not a big Beatles fan at all.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:54 AM

True genius requires that that new material affect others in a meaningful and new way.

And no two people will be affected in the same way by art, be it music or sculpture or poetry etc. So artistic geniuses are our own personal geniuses.

Geniuses in the world of science are easier to name as they produce something that does have a universal affect. I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:58 AM

MM: What did you have to do with the recording of "Let It Be?"

MARTIN: Yes, I produced the whole album originally, and got a great shock when I found it "re-produced" ... or over-produced, as I put it.

MM: What's your opinion of what Spector did to it?

MARTIN: It was an unhappy album from the beginning, because this really was the time of dissent. It was before "Abbey Road," and I really thought that "Let It Be" was going to be that last album any of us did. They were all fighting like mad. John insisted that it was going to be a natural album, and he didn't want any faking, any of the "Pepper" stuff, any production. He said to me "Your job is to make sure that we get a good sound. I don't want editing or overdubs of voices or instruments. It's got to be like it is." So we made it like that, and it was very tedious because they kept repeating the same things over and over again, and it's very difficult when you get to the 27th take to work out whether number 13 was better than number 19. None of it was ever very good, none of it was perfect - it would have been if you could have edited things together. It had this rawness, and I could quite see the advantage of it, so we made up this album which was an honest album, and that was it. It was left lying, and we recorded "Abbey Road," which was back to square one because we were able to produce it. I was much happier then, and after that.

MM: Did you think when you were making "Abbey Road" that it was going to be the last album?

MARTIN: No, I really didn't. They'd got back, they were much happier with themselves. It was very much more of a produced album ... we used a Moog for the first time, on George's "Here Comes The Sun." Everybody seemed to be working hard, and we'd got things nicely organised. It wasn't until after that that things started happening badly. I knew that John was going in the studios, doing some work on "Let It Be," but I understood that as they were making a film of it, they were doing some film tracks. When the record finally came out, I got a hell of a shock.

MM: You didn't know anything about it?

MARTIN: Nothing. Neither did Paul, and Paul wrote to me to say that he was pretty appalled, if you'll forgive the pun. All the lush un-Beatle-like orchestrations with harps and choirs in the background. And it was so contrary to what John asked for in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 10:15 AM

And, contrary to what I said earlier, like all geniuses George Martin has his dark moments -- what was with the Goldie Hawn album (that is my name for the travesty of Beatles songs he helped produce)?

Returning to the original topic, I think that in terms of popular music I would pick Goffin-King, Felice and Boudleaux Bryant, and Hank Garland as unsung (hah hah) geniuses.

Arthur Alexander was a kind of genius in his way.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 10:54 AM

And then, of course, there's Jerry Lewis. Just ask the French about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:30 AM

Musical genius ... actually is a hard one to define as previously mentioned by John Hardly. They are (I presume) musicians who take their artistry to a new undefined level.

With that said, the list I initially posted (way up there) are ones that I personally feel should fit the category of 'musical genius'. There are names posted by other catters that certainly deserve that category also. Personally I don't feel the Beatles meet that definition, either does GM, but he was I feel the maestro in that brief time in history. Nor, do I feel Bob Dylan (though I admire him, and am a great fan) fits that category.

anyway ... that's my 12 seconds on the podium.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:56 AM

I don't know what is meant by 'genius'. But I'm surprised this thread has got this far with no mention of either Clapton* or Hendrix.

* Viv's reference notwithstanding

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 12:28 PM

Hendrix was mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 01:32 PM

Well, colour me doofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: annamill
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:22 PM

Ohh, musical genius... I was going to say "ME" but that sure as hell wouldn't fit...

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:16 PM

Re Clapton. See J.J. Cale. Enough said.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:23 PM

Shambles said something very interesting, shortly before the George Martin debate began:

Perhaps the term should be reserved for those of us who are prepared to sacrifice the lives of all those who ever get close to them - in the selfish belief that their own life and work are all that matters? Being thought to be a genius - seems to be taken by some as permission or an excuse - to be a complete shit.

I'd take it a step further and observe that some artists can be so obsessed, so taken over, so driven, by their own "genius" or "muse" or "ambition" or whatever, that they wind up sacrificing their own happiness and normality on the altar of their music ~ not just the "lives of all those who ever get close to them."

Based on my brief and long-ago friendship with someone who would eventually gain a measure of recognition as an outstanding songwriter, I can attest that certain people who may appear to be "complete shits" or "difficult" personalities are often harder on themselves than they are on anyone else.

While it's easy to be critical of these "geniuses" for their difficult personalities (while being envious of their accomplishments and success), it might be more appropriate to sympathize with them, even perhaps pity them, for how very difficult they make life for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 07:27 PM

Wouldn't it make a certain amount of sense though, that someone known for seeing the world in a fresh new way would also be one not as inclined to view the world in the standard old way (or the "normal" way)?

Isn't that the reason why genius is so often indistiguishable from insanity?

We wonder why they can be total "shits". They wonder why everyone doesn't join them in seeing the world as they do -- and are usually oblivious to what we think is the obvious answer to that question...

happiness, security, love.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:24 PM

Although, I did rest my case earlier as this is an open forum I will add in final defense of my initial assertion;

Michael Jackson purchased the Lennon & McCartney song catalogue for $28,000,000 back in the late 1980s and that catalogue is now estimated to be worth around a billion dollars.How does GM stake a claim in that as he admits he contributed nothing to any composition other than instrumentation and orchestral arrangements and Nelson Riddle would have probably been a better "window dresser" than GM considering his pedigree.

I did point out that I have studied The Beatles cannon of work for decades and I am as enamoured with them now as I was as a teenager back in the day.That alone must justify a level of recognition of their merit.Remember, there are millions of us out there who have been inspired and affected by their labours crossing generations and cultural divides who have respect for GM but would never denigrate L & M to the level of the DC5 ( that is the most ludicrous assertion I have heard in years but thanks for the laugh anyway "Prisoner" my poor misguided friend.Please listen again to the fabulous "Let It Be " album and be astounded by the swamp rock gutteral majesty of "Get Back" and the lush "Long & Winding Road" and the poignant melancholia of "Two Of Us" etc., etc., which as you admitted has nothing to do with GM- and tell me it is a bad album and I will give up on you totally.For like-minded genius lovers out there; yes I know "Across The Universe" is a masterpiece and it's on the album also with "Let It Be" itself. Wow! I'm gonna give it a listen now.

Best Wishes.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:37 PM

It's all about "pushing the barriers and planting the seeds" as the great dreamweaver himself put it.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: jaze
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 09:38 PM

Mississippi John Hurt

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: jaze
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 09:39 PM

Oh what the hell,100!