BS: IRA ends armed campaign

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Kaleea
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:28 PM

Ummm, I think this thread is about the end of fighting, yes? Well, I guess if the 2 sides only fuss with words, no one dies from guns or bombs.

    To guestMrr-- Have you ever heard an Irish ballad sung? Did you understand the lyrics? If you're still wondering what this subject has to do with Music, Irish or otherwhere, I suggest you visit the digital tradition & take a tiptoe through the lyrics. The pain of war is the subject of many, many ballads the world over.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:43 PM

Mrr actually didn't "has this to do with Irish Music", but "what will this do to Irish music". Which is a very different question and a much more interesting one.

There was a time the same drummers would sometimes put on different colours and play in both Ancient Order of Hibernian marches and Orange Order parades, on the quiet (if that's a term that be be used in reference to lambeg drummers...). Maybe those times will come again, down this road.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:15 AM

Getting any gunmen off the streets is good news. Let's hope that the UDA rabble and associated bigots will also quickly dsappear - forever.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:42 AM

Like my missing "i"...?

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 07:01 AM

If this statement hadn't been issued, where would the IRA have gone from here? The reaction (esp the US Govt) to them following the McCartney murder played it's part in this decision. Why bang a drum when the audience are walking away.

After 30 years of violence, where their aim of a united Ireland was never met, they think the way forward is to talk. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 08:32 AM

When we post to potentially emotive threads like this one, we put our name or psuesonym to sign our posts. I frequently disagree with Ard Mhacha and The Curator over these issues, but give me them anyday rather than someone who lobs in a petrol bomb anonymously and then scarpers.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:09 AM

How very dramatic.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:13 PM

GUEST We will get our aims met. I stood and watched the army take down their look out posts today. One came over near me to photograph it and shouted over we will being gong next.Troop levels to drop within the next few weeks. Your beloved unionists must be foaming at the mouth. And yes we did ask to get our comrade out before the statement was read and we did, we also asked for special branch to go, troop levels to drop within days and a few other things which you will read about. It's great we were refused nothing. All part of our plan. Go cry to your M.P.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM

Well said in that first post Curator. Are you telling us in the last post that you're in the Provos? I didn't think in was the normal form to be explicit about such matters.

Ard Mhacha may have seen little reaction on the streets of Lurgan, and for sure we all knew this was coming from the early days of the McCartney fiasco. But across the whole island it is going to have far-reaching and wholly positive consequences, some of which the Curator has already seen. And the pressure of international opinion is now going to be fair-and-square on the loyalists.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:57 PM

Two guys fighting. One says he's had enough. If the other guy keeps swinging, everyone knows where the problem REALLY is.

I have never admired the IRA, nor have I ever admired the UVF/UDA. I have however understood the perceived 'necessities' on both sides of that equation. Now, one side is gone. The ball is definitely in the other guy's court. To quote Bob Dylan, "Time will tell just who has fell and who's been left behind--when you go your way and I go mine." I am reminded also of the old line, "What if they held a war and nobody came?"

Here's to the people of the Emerald Isle--it's about time.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:00 PM

Good evening Peter hope your well,It wasn't the PSNI playing with the McCartney sisters that brought the council to yesterday's statement. This has been talked about since 1998. It was the last two elections that brought us all to the position we are now in.Sinn Fein showed everyone what they could do.I think the loyalists will also disband, but there are issues within their estates that are serious at this moment in time.The leadership has enough to worry about. Nobody should push them for the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 06:18 PM

The IRA rejecting violence is a very good thing. May all the other parties involved follow them.

I think, and hope this is a move from a desire for peace and progress, and not as a result of the London Transport bombings reminding everyone of what terrorism is.

Gaudete, gaudete!

Tempus adest gratiae,
Hoc quod optabamus
Carmina laetitiae
Devote redamus.

Tx:( Rejoice, Rejoice,

The time of grace has come for which we have prayed;
Let us devoutly sing songs of joy.)

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:06 AM

The killing of Robert McCartney was (or so I've read) done by members of the IRA.

But to say that this means "the IRA killed him" is a bit like saying "the US Army rapes children in the Philippines" because individual soldiers do so.

Anyone wants to watch the video of the statement (in English only, by the way), it's here

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:17 AM

Good point GUEST,JTT

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 10:37 PM

It is the point I was making. Thanks for stating it clearly.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:28 PM

The announcement is something that wasn't there previously. It's more than nothing. Sooner or later even the most hateful must realize that killing hasn't worked for anybody, and be prepared to try living.

It's time for many to do a lot of forgetting. Well past time actually.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Jimmy C
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:49 PM

The statement from the I.R.A. is very welcome and encouraging, however, there are two sides to every coin and given that the I.R.A. has adhered to their ceasefire since 1998, and given that they have had three successive arms dumpings (all witnessed as per the Good Friday Agreement) and also considring that there has been nothing even coming close to matching their efforts from the loyalist camps,I can guarantee that the loyalist politicians will keep harping about the declaration NOT BEING ENOUGH, NOT BEING CLEAR ENOUGH, NOT BEING THIS AND NOT BEING THAT. In short the declaration from the I.R.A will mean zilch if there is no movement from the loyalists. All we have heard of late is the McCartney murder while three protestants have been killed by loyalists during the past 2 weeks and hardly a word about it. The I.R.A. has taken a major step towards power sharing, thay also have not given up the dream of a United Ireland, but I am sorry to say that in the end, even with a nationalist majority ( when it comes) the guns will have to come out. I know enough loyalists and have been friends with many, I even have some relatives who are loyalists and believe me they will not go into a united Ireland without a fight. They will do all they can to delay power sharing, even if the I.R.A was to disband, they will not willingly sit down with nationalists. I think it is about time for the British Government to lay down the law once and for all to the unionists. Play ball or be left out of the game. However even the longest journey starts with one step and the I.R.A. has taken a mighty stride this week, lets hope it leads to something positive and constructive, so that the next generation of Irish children do not have to go through another thirty odd years of killings and bombings.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 12:06 AM

Yep, that is the fact. It has not, in the last 7 years, been the Nationalists who are the problem. And I believe that this will become evident very soon. This move by the IRA is a brilliant stroke. As I said, it puts the ball squarely in the court of the obstructionists. It gives Downing Street the ability to force the issue.

Well done, lads.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:26 AM

Mick, I don't think Nationalists or Ulstermen in themselves have ever been the problem. It has just been very difficult for ordinary people of either "side" to envisage making peace, when there is a risk that the father will be shot in front of the children at Sunday dinner. (The UDA and the IRA both did this in the past). Peace does seem to be within reach - although it is still some way off - and yes, the weapons of the UDA and attendant splinter groups have to go as well. Has there been any monitoring of that? Maybe the Nationalist community could press harder on that issue. They should have a good chance of forcing it. If their guns have gone away, they can demand their rights as a simple issue of law and order.
At the end of the day, the problems of Northern Ireland will be solved by the communities who live there. The British can't solve them. If I were in a position of power, I would be tempted to light a fire under the Ulster Protestants' behinds, by telling them that they had (say) two years you make peace with their neighbours. Then, if they had not reached a workable agreement, they would have full independence - whether they wanted it or not. Believe me, very few Brits on the mainland have a deep sentimental yearning to keep Ulster within the UK!

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:49 AM

you always get the idoits, but why bother with them.

I am a republican I don't like Ian Paisley, I hate the man, However he's has his views and I have mine.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:54 AM

I am not a unionist, or anything else, So how is the bigot now. I am neither Prostestant or Catholic I am a born again Christian.

We have a joke here in Scotland

A group of buddists arrive in Scotland and they are in Glasgow and two men ask them what their religion was and they said Buddists, and the two men say are you Protestant or Catholic Buddists.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:56 AM

Sounds like you've lost the plot completely, alanabit. Anyway, independence/secession etc was never going to be for the "mainland" to decide. It's a matter for the people on that little offshore island.

It's taken 13 years from the Downing Street declaration to get this far. Let's be patient a little while longer. Peace comes dropping slow.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 08:10 AM

Just a quick note, alanabit...When refering to the Nationalists in the north of Ireland, please keep in mind that just because they hold that specific political ideal does not mean that they are part of, involved with or even support the IRA. Granted, some do, but saying:

"Maybe the Nationalist community could press harder on that issue. They should have a good chance of forcing it. If their guns have gone away, they can demand their rights as a simple issue of law and order" gives me the impression that you think all Nationalists are members of a militant group.

Cheers to your comments though on what you would do if you were in a position of power...

E

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 12:36 PM

I don't think all Nationalists support the IRA at all. In fact I know they do not. Some years ago, when a group of "hard men" were frequenting the "Tinnef" in Cologne, they were shunned by the Irish community here, who were essentially Nationalists to a man (and woman).
I am a little baffled as to where you think I have lost the plot completely Peter. In the first sentence sentence of my previous post, I tried to make it clear that I was trying not to be judgemental. I am aware that the sectarianism is so deeply embedded in the culture of many people, that finding solutions was always going to be difficult. As long as those aims were pursued through violence, it was nigh on impossible. Removing violence in itself will not solve all the problems, but it will make it considerably less difficult to pursue solutions. As regards your final sentence, I couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 01:42 PM

People change, and it's my perception that unionists, and even loyalists, are a *lot* less hostile to the idea of a 32-county Republic than they were even 10 years ago, much less 20 or 30 or 40.

There was the same kind of divide in the Republic of Ireland at the time of the formation of the Free State; the numbers were not so evenly balanced (I think it's something like 55% Protestant, 45% Catholic now in Northern Ireland) - but even so, the Protestant population was significant and was influential and wealthy.

Many left; those who stayed contributed hugely to the country's industry and administration, and still do so.

There are figures floating around that show the Protestant population as having plunged, but as I understand it, these are based on misunderstandings of the census figures, which were all-Ireland figures before the Free State (1922-today) but Republic-of-Ireland-only figures from 1922 on; this artificially made it appear that the Protestant population had plunged, since the northern counties are more heavily populated with Protestants.

*If* the result of a 32-county Republic was to produce inequality and injustice towards the Protestant population, then of course the guns would come out. Otherwise, I doubt it.

After all, the 'armed struggle' had fallen virtually silent in the 1960s; it only revived when thousands of Catholics were burned out, driven from their homes and refused civil rights in the late 1960s.

Mostly people become violent as a last resort.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 02:45 PM

Jimmy C is right, I can NEVER see the day when Paisley Robinson and the rest of the DUP will ever agree to sit down with Adams and co and using the language of diplomats discuss their problems in a reasonable manner.

It just wont happen, to reason with Paisley is impossible, I can still hear the loud guldering voice shouting, "NEEVARR,NEEVARR,NEEVARR, when he was asked would the day come when he would sit down with Sein Fein and work out a power sharing arrangment.

Again I agree with Jimmy C, the Unionists will never agree to a united Ireland, even when they eventually become the minority, despite the fact that the economy of the six northern Counties are third world in comparsion to the Irish republic.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 03:09 PM

Ian Paisley will not live forever. I may not be alone in hoping that a lot of his unpleasantness will depart with him.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 04:06 PM

Hear, hear!

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 04:14 PM

Alanabit and Peace, do you not know that his son Ian Paisley JR is regarded as being less accommodating than his father.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:27 PM

MY GAWD! Looks like y'all have yer own home-grown Jerry Falwell, ard. If you are not familiar with Falwell, look here.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:31 PM

Just a bit off topic here--but not much. What were the names of the two women who (I think were nominated or maybe received the Nobel Peace Prize) tried to make peace so many years ago? I recall that one was Protestant and the other Catholic.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 06:04 PM

Betty Williams and Maread Farrell. They got the money, one divorced her husband and got a younger model, the other married her brother in law. The Peace people.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 06:10 PM

Thank you, Curator. Been bugging me for a day or two.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM

Ard,

From what I've read on a few internet sites, Ian Paisley seems to be very--how shall I say this so as not to get people riled again . . . uh, --got it! Maybe I just shouldn't say it.

Do you think there is a real chance for peace to 'breakout' in Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:30 PM

I remember Paisley screaming at us, red faced and tendons bulging, as we walked into a cathedral for a service. We were a class of 13 yr old schoolgirls. I have no idea why he was there, there must have been another reason and we just happened to pass by.

"You're leading them into the gates of hell."

    at 4000 decibels to Sister Myra ( not someone you would raise your voice to ordinarily, for fear of a blackboard rubber hitting you with the velocity of a high powered fire arm). It didn't have the desired effect. Although he got some kudos for not being mortally afraid of Sister Myra, we p**sed ourselves laughing at the mad man.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:58 PM

It's unbelievable to me...yet I don't know why I'm shocked about your story...

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 09:11 PM

Ard, never mind the northern protestants, what makes you think the Republic's catholics would want a united Ireland? Their economy is transformed, as you pointed out. Why jeopardise that by bringing upwards of a million belligerent prods into the equation? (Those religious labels are just lazy shorthand on my part. I'm delighted to see religion fast losing its grip on both communities.)

Alanabit, it was the idea of threatening the Ulster loyalists with full independence that I found a bit ludicrous. A surefire recipe for mayhem, and - as I said - it's not for the Brits to decide anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 03:58 AM

Peter, when you look at the number of initiatives which have floundered on the the Unionists intransigence, it would make me feel a whole lot better if a UK government told them that they did not have a blank cheque on their resources. In my lifetime I can recall the Major government clinging on by appeasing the Unionists. There have been other examples of the tail wagging the dog like that too. I do realise that the constitutional status of Northern Ireland is for its own people to decide. However, if some Irish want to stay in the UK, I think the UK deserves a say in that too. For many years, certain bigots were able to lob stones, bombs whatever at their neighbours and then hide behind British soldiers when retaliation came. I don't want to disenfranchise the Ulster Unionists (admittedly a recipe for disaster), but I would like to see the end of their rarified status.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 05:59 AM

Peter they are not all free staters, you and your other Irish friends may look down your noses at northern Nationalists, but do remember I also have met with a hell of a lot of southern and Donegal people[well it is the most northerly county] and they are true republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:04 AM

And a wee PS to my last post, every survey on a united Ireland carried out in the republics newspapers has resulted in an overwhelming vote for Irish unity.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:19 AM

Peace, peace has broken out in Ireland a long time ago! The IRA has not been on campaign for years and years.

There have been "punishment beatings" - a crude method of controlling such crimes as "joyriding" (car theft followed by racing the car around the streets then burning it out), and drug dealing. Punishment beatings are when a bunch of thugs force their way into the home of a teenager and beat him or her with baseball bats, nail-spiked clubs and so on.

These thugs are generally republicans; this is the method of policing they choose in rough areas where the police are considered to be outsiders.

Asked about this, Northern republicans tend to say "Well, what can you do - crime has to be controlled some way in rough areas."

And there is absolutely no way that the police in their current form - seen by many/most republicans in the North as a foreign, enemy force committed to serve the Unionists - are going to be called to help.

The history of the police in the North includes many instances of police officers leaking information to loyalist murderers, at the very least. In some cases the police have themselves murdered republicans.

So this one issue - the punishment beatings - is the most difficult facing republicans in the North of Ireland. They must either turn to trusting the PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland, formerly the RUC, an overwhelmingly Protestant and unionist force) or learn to police republican areas through positive action to offer choices to rebellious youths, rather than violence.

Considering that many of the people who've grown up with the IRA are themselves from an impoverished background not rich in choices, this is going to be difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:11 AM

Strange that during the recent rioting in Belfast during the Orange parades, Father Troy and Gerry Adams acting as peace keepers during the rioting had the water hoses turned on them, changed my ass, the PSNI are just a clone of the RUC.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:42 AM

Why doesn't republcans and loyalists trust each other instead of slagging each other off, sit around the table a talk. I mean is that not possible, or am I just talking crap as normal?

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:31 PM

I think it is a very hopeful sign that there may yet be peace in Northern Ireland.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:52 PM

"The PSNI are just a clone of the RUC."

Unfortunately for the people of the six counties, you are correct, ard mhacha.

E

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 03:06 PM

Listening and reading with interest. As for those in the Irish Republic not being interested in Irish unity ! I spent the best part of the year going around these counties and believe me, anyone would be proud at the numbers we see there. And our speakers are not having to ask the people to support us in our wish for unity, it comes from the floor. Christ, even one local priest said he would be pleased such numbers in his chapel of a Sunday. Take it from the desire is there. Some of the most sucessful active service units were from the Irish republic, we didn't have to go down and arm lock them. Yet again voices at the keyboards, we are on the ground and I am not making it up. Don't stress me today above all days, I am taking in the news that the Royal Irish Regiment home battalions are being disbanded. Another scalp thank you, B Specials 1920-70 Ulster defence Regiment 1970 -92.Royal Irish Constabulary 1922 - 2001. The Royal Irish Regiment 1992 - 2005.Thanks Mr. Blair you made us promises three weeks ago and you are proving a man of your word.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tremodt
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:36 PM

I dont think that we have to worry about the IRA it is the PIRA are they going along with this new inititive

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:45 PM

Tam, that's not crap, it's a perfectly reasonable question. I've been spending a fair amount of time in the Balkans in the past year or so, where people were at full-scale war with their neighbours less than 10 years ago - and I mean real, full-scale war, not the kind of disruption that the Provos called a war. Yet the progress they've made toward reconciliation is amazing. Spend a few weeks there, and you'd soon think that all the present bitterness in Northern Ireland was based on very little.

Curator, after a cracking start in this thread you seem to have slipped into childish gloating. It comes across like someone whistling for confidence, but I can't for the life of me see why you should be feeling so defensive.

Ard, I can't remember how much I've said to you so I'm not sure what you mean by the reference to my Irish friends. If you mean the Jimmy Stewarts and Roy Johnstons, I'm happy to admit that all factions made mistakes, including those that I supported. On the plus side leaders like Andy Barry always tried to oppose sectarianism, and the Stickies and CP tried to steer NICRA on a course that would not antagonise working Protestants. On the other hand, opposing the EEC as it then was, to conform with Soviet foreign policy was sheer stupidity. Well we live and learn.

You too, Ard, or you're going to find a united ireland, if it happens, a very uncomfortable place to be. On the one side there'll be all those Paisleyites you hold in contempt, and on the other, the free-stater Catholics, the ones who backed Michael Collins, whom you loathe even more. Start giving ground a bit, like everyone else is going to have to do, or you'll be overtaken by a younger generation that has no truck with petty hatreds harboured from way back.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:50 PM

Tremodt,

The Provos (PIRA) are following the leadership and doing everything that has been asked of them in order to comply with the end of the Irish Republican war. Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:17 AM

Disasdorous Event - for those musicians trained to rally the mob and shakeout contributions - a great gig while scrimming 60% for the work attained/and honor gained....and funelling 40 into the California Costa Mesa's Armalite

Most solicitors have been pulled in from the field.

Whoa Whoooa WWHHOOoooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaa