BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:37 AM

Carol C,

Don't bother trying to make these folk listen to the truth because they don't want to.

as they say the truth hurts.

Tam frae Scotland

and that thing that I wrote about the Chrstians is true, but tha's to you to beleive it or not.

Goodbye

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Crystal
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:55 AM

Given the huge controvasy it stirred up I have to say that the first post was rather Troll like!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Pied Piper
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 11:48 AM

Evil deeds are evil deeds and shiting on people almost compleetly fails to turn them in to saints.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:33 PM

Why indeed, Wolfgang. Except that you were using the word as a way of taking a swipe at me. Following me around the Mudcat trying to trip me up is not a constuctive hobby, and I recommend that you give it up.

Tam the Man...

I disagree with much of what you have put here in this thread. Please don't include me in anything you post that in any way lumps all Jews into any specific categories. My criticisms are for the government of Israel and its policies, and those who support those policies. That's all.

On the subject of the person who starte this thread, and in answer to one of your earlier posts, Wolfgang... no, I don't regard the posting histories of the person who started this thread and Levi9909 in the same light. GUEST,Ted DiBiase, Jr. started this thread. Levi9909 posted to an already existing thread. I view these two things very differently, and always have.

I have noticed a pattern with the starting of Palestinian-bashing threads. Almost without fail, whenever the government of Israel is about to do or is in the process of doing, or has just done something atrocious with regard to the Palestinians, someone starts a Palestinian-bashing thead in the Mudcat. Almost without fail. If I see a Palestinian-bashing thread in the Mudcat, I go looking around in the international news sources to see what the government of Israel is up to, because I know it's going to be something bad. And a lot of the time, whoever is starting these threads uses a name, like GUEST,Ted DiBiase, Jr., or some other person's name, and then never posts under that name again. So I think it's pretty safe to assume that at least some of the people starting these threads are in fact the same person.

I don't know what they think they'll accomplish by doing this. It doesn't really divert attention away from whatever bad thing the government of Israel is about to do/is doing/has done. In fact, it actually focuses more attention on these things than would otherwise be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:45 PM

Carol,

you should be able to tell the difference between disagreeing how a word can be used and taking a swipe.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:57 PM

In your case, Wolfgang, I cannot.

Back to the subject of the thread...

I have read some of what has been linked to in the opening post to this thread. I notice that they are trying to make us believe that Christian Palestinians would rather live under Israeli military occupation than to live in an independent Palestinian state.

Well, now I know why Ted Junior started this thread, and why so many of the other Palestinian-bashing threads get started. They are trying to justify the occupation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Same old same old. I think, if Palestinian Christians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem were asked which they prefer, they would most emphatically NOT choose to remain under Israeli military occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM

The Israelis keep their boot firmly on the Palestinians to prevent them from having any sort of free country, leaving them an unviable area with no sea access (they keep control of the seacoast of little Gaza), little control over water use and no political power.
Despairing Palestinians will increasingly see Christians as part of the problem as the United States government continues to support Israel and Europe does nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM

Slow Exodus of West Bank Christians

This article points also to other reasons beside harassment and Muslim fundamentalism for the lower percentage of Christians in the West Bank mentioned in the first post.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 03:42 PM

I would imagine that having Bush and Co make such a noise about being "Christian", and combining that with hardline support for Israel must inevitably have some adverse effect on the way Christian Palestinians are sometime seen by some of their compatriots.

It's noteworthy that prior to the establishment of Israel as a separate state, and the ethnic cleansing that ensued, Palestinian Christians and Muslims had been getting along remarkably well for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:12 AM

You're taking the lets's-see-if-we-can-blame-Bush game a bit far, aren't you? The trend was there long before Bush, even before Bush senior. In that particular case here, the literalist/fundamentalist Muslim reading of the Koran and the Hadith that a Muslim woman should not be related to a non-Muslim man are the basic reason. These incidences have happened centuries ago. And, BTW, the very unlikely to happen with the sex roles reversed. Bad old double moral.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:25 AM

Well Catol C, I don't support the government of Israel, I believe in what you are saying, and this is how you treat one of your supporters, well you can p.off.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:27 AM

I meant Carol C, Really you don't listen, you're just banging your head against a brick wall, I supported you in everything that you wrote, but now I don't, so Carol C P... Off

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:29 AM

I'm sorry about that Carol C Please forgive me, I'm sorry that I upset you but as I say I was only trying to support you.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 01:53 PM

Well, thank you for trying to support me, Tam the Man, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you about everything you say.

I am very uncomfortable with the some of the things you say about Jews. Some of the most important work being done for human rights in Israel and the Palestinian areas under military occupation is being done by Jews. Some of the most important organizations that work for human rights in those places are Jewish run organizations. "Jews" are not the problem. And Israel is not the only country that is guilty of human rights abuses. Other countries are guilty of that as well (my own country, the US, for instance).

So I prefer to focus on the issues and the behavior of individuals and governments, and not on any particular groups of people, because that just leads to scapegoating and further injustices.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 06:43 PM

We aren't responsible for the people who come in on our side - fortunately sometimes. And it's important to remember that the same applies to the people we are arguing with. Discussions shouldn't be seen as wars in which the only thing that matters is which side people are on and who wins, they are about exploring a topic and trying to arrive at a common understanding.
...............................................

It wasn't a question of blaming Bush as such, Wolfgang. There's a potential for anti-Christian prejudice within the Muslim tradition, in the same way that there is a potential for anti-Islamic and anti-Semitic prejudice within the Christian tradition. Sometimes things can happen that help activate that potential.

The close association between a particular kind of vocal Christianity and hostility towards Muslims in Palestine and elsewhere is one of those things. I could think of a number of analogous things in relation to anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic prejudice. Generally it is the case that prejudice serves to encourage countervailing prejudice, which will be directed towards people who have no responsibility for the initial prejudice.

The relationship between Christians and Muslims in Palestine have generally been pretty good in the past. It's worth remembering that Yassir Arafat married a Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Christian Pogrom in the West Bank
From: Tam the man
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:34 AM

Thanks Carol C