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England's National Musical-Instrument?
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:22 AM You keep on ignoring my points, dear Wav. Something to hide? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: s&r Date: 03 Nov 08 - 06:56 AM Do at least run a spellcheck on your incompitent(sic) verse WAV Stu |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Woody Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:00 AM In my wild moments I believe you're a computer program caught in an endless loop. Maybe it's a failed entry for a program trying to pass the Turing Test |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: s&r Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:01 AM Two years before you studied to become an expert on folk, and you're already judging thr competence of others. Why am I not surprised. Stu |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Stu Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:27 AM WAV's revelling in the attention he's getting and enjoying the fact he's stringing so many along. He never answers any questions directly, his views and opinions are to right-wing to be genuinely folk, and his non-existent deference to those who know what they're talking about reeks of someone pulling the proverbial pissers of all who attempt to educate him. "I think wind-ups demand a certain level of humour" This one qualifies then; he's got to be having a right larf posting those bleedin' poems. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:55 AM Against Wav's assertions that Irish and Scottish musician tend to perform mostly their own music, here are some names he might find interesting. Rory Gallagher, Phil Lynnot, Gary Moore, Van Morrison, Boomtown Rats, Stiff Fingers, U2, Sinead O'Connor, need I go on? Wasn't Dublin called the city of 1000 bands? Anyone care to bring up the dire topic of showbands? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,eliza c Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:32 AM Northumberland isn't England. x e |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Stu Date: 03 Nov 08 - 11:55 AM Neither's Clun. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Phil Edwards Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM A few years ago I did a crash course in English history from Julius Caesar to James I (and VI), and for an awful lot of that period Northumbria was different. I seem to remember that Northumbria was the last bit of Anglo-Saxon England to unite with the rest - and even after the Conquest it was something of a kingdom-within-a-kingdom for quite some time, reporting to London but only as often as absolutely necessary. I thought that explained a lot. Pip who once played Elsie Marley at quite a reasonable speed (but only once) |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: The Borchester Echo Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:51 PM Dick Gaughan once explained how he finally realised what it is that makes Northumberland different. He asked a small boy who he would be supporting in a forthcoming football tournament. The boy thought for a moment then said: "England, because they're a bit nearer to us". |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Stu Date: 03 Nov 08 - 12:56 PM Nor the Isle of Wight. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 03 Nov 08 - 01:02 PM "Don and Smokey (which could also be a description for most of the posts that followed): while the changes/developments you post were going on in churches and courts, folk in England and other countries did persist, over the centuries, with their oral tradition of unaccompanied singing and dance tunes……." You know, because you were there, David? I don't think so. Where did you pick up this notion? GIVE DOCUMENTATION TO BACK UP YOUR CONTENTION. And DON'T just link to something on your web-site!! If you actually do have a BA in Humanities, then you should know how to cite independent references. Let's see some. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Stu Date: 03 Nov 08 - 01:17 PM You'll be waiting a long time. He's taking the piss. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:21 PM I wonder if David also belongs the THIS organization? "Eric Hoffer in his book The True Believer made a good case for a certain kind of personality (which we might call a fanatic) who will continue to believe something even after there is overwhelming evidence that it is a falsehood or, even more dangerous, a half-truth. Believing fulfills a need with them, and in their minds attacking a false belief is the same as attacking them personally. I'm sure you know someone like this. 'Don't confuse me with the facts!'Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: catspaw49 Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:30 PM Wavydorkusbigot, Follow my advice and go stare into a mirror and say, "I am a racist bigot with no talent and my Mummy blows hogs." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:35 PM Thanks Stu - I shall fix that mistake shortly. "his views and opinions are to right-wing to be genuinely folk" (Stigweard)...how can this be so when I've repeatedly criticized capitalism - and, as I've said, questioning economic/capitalist immigtation/emigration is also a LEFT-wing attitude...if you're still confused, please see poems 74 and 75. And we don't want Northumbrian nor Cornish nationalism; and "On Ilkley Moor Ba' Tat" is a county NOT national anthem, isn't it Eliza?! |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,mispa Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM I'm not English, so I hope you don't mind a little American intrusion here ..... I would think the Rummel Pot and the Gridiron should get some honorable mention, as well as the tongs and key ...... actually, I've built several Rummel Pots and used them in a family band many years back ..... got lots of attention ..... and laughs. Maybe this would help your search: Old English Instruments of Music By Francis William Galpin - (a readable book online) http://books.google.com/books?id=0dwPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA259&lpg=PA259&dq=%22gridiron%22+%2B+Old+English+music&source=web&ots=YVOUjH8Mq0&sig=SS_1fidxZMQ0Fa8d3FqcV2XLdyM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPP1,M1 |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 03 Nov 08 - 02:50 PM WHY don't we want that? NO IT ISN'T. Being anti-capitalist might be a left-wing attitude, but let's translate your phrase into plain English. Capitalist immigration=foreigners come here to steal our jobs. That is a solidly right-wing attitude, but it is a great credit that not all rightwingers display that attitude. Why are you ignoring the rest of my points, have something to hide? As you have not answered, I must conclude that you agree that immigrants should assimilate. Why then did your parents and yourself not assimilate? Why do you still consider yourself English? Or if you don't consider yourself Australian, why do you have dual citizenship and why did you wait 30 years before repatriating, instead of at the first available opportunity? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:00 PM No answer and no citations. He lives in a dream world. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Phil Edwards Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:33 PM And we don't want Northumbrian nor Cornish nationalism "We"? Who's this other person on whose behalf WAV is speaking, I wonder. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:49 PM His alter-ego, les Voyages-au-Pied (pardon the miserable French). |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:40 PM "Don and Smokey (which could also be a description for most of the posts that followed): while the changes/developments you post were going on in churches and courts, folk in England and other countries did persist, over the centuries, with their oral tradition of unaccompanied singing and dance tunes" Twat. I've already told you the point of what I said, and I'll wager you're the only person here who didn't understand it. Or so you claim. The only real, unbroken, indisputable tradition (in my umble opinion) is that humans have always made music, any way they could, and using whatever resources were available to them. "how can this be so when I've repeatedly criticized capitalism" No you haven't, you've just said you don't like it. Under the (your) circumstances I would call that 'biting the hand that feeds you'. Like it or not, the world runs on capitalism, and you are a mere parasite feeding on its generosity. Under socialism/communism, you'd be working, pal, and it wouldn't be in the entertainment business I assure you. "And we don't want Northumbrian nor Cornish nationalism; and "On Ilkley Moor Ba' Tat" is a county NOT national anthem, isn't it Eliza?!" Actually WaV, I don't think we want any nationalism at all - especially yours. Patriotism's one thing, in its place, but nationalism is the mother of intolerance. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: catspaw49 Date: 03 Nov 08 - 10:41 PM Wavydorkusbigot, Follow my advice and go stare into a mirror and say, "I am a racist bigot with no talent and my Mummy blows hogs." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:12 AM "No answer and no citations. He lives in a dream world."..after.."Don and Smokey (which could also be a description for most of the posts that followed): while the changes/developments you post were going on in churches and courts, folk in England and other countries did persist, over the centuries, with their oral tradition of unaccompanied singing and dance tunes……." (me)..You know, because you were there, David? I don't think so. Where did you pick up this notion? GIVE DOCUMENTATION TO BACK UP YOUR CONTENTION." (Don)...short memory, Don, because you were well involved in the "Chords in Folk?" thread, which has plenty of links/documentation; but I'll briefly mention others who you may respect: Lomax, Sharp, RVW... Volgadon - I have covered those questions on mudcat and in my life's work; obviously my family, like so many more, chose to leave seeing a better life for us, and, as an adult, I gradually began to question capitalist/ecomomic immigration/emigration more-and-more...travel, anthropology, etc (use link below). To Stu and the Mudcat moderators - I went to fix the abovementioned spelling on my master copy and found that it's correct there and on my website where I copy/pasted it from; and, before a string of fibber/mad type posts, hacking has happened here before, I did get an email from a mod. about it, and paperbacks of the very same collection have been in libraries since 2003, if you wished to check. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,eliza c Date: 04 Nov 08 - 06:52 AM Northumberland isn't England. Yorkshire was once a part of the ancient kingdom of Northumbria though. Can Yorkshire opt out of your brave new world and have as many chords as it likes please? The immigrants can come here too. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 04 Nov 08 - 07:33 AM I didn't ask why your parents emigrated, I asked why they didn't assimilate, when you have stated that immigrants should. Why do you still have an Australian passport and dual citizenship? "Don and Smokey (which could also be a description for most of the posts that followed): while the changes/developments you post were going on in churches and courts, folk in England and other countries did persist, over the centuries, with their oral tradition of unaccompanied singing and dance tunes" Do people today not follow fashions and trends set by the rich and powerful? People have done so throughout history, I can provide some examples if you wish. As for churches, they exerted a TREMENDOUS influence. Not only was Sunday attendance obligatory, the church (as well as fairs) was also THE source for news and gossip. On top of all that, you would often hear the most avant-garde music being played there. short memory, Don, because you were well involved in the "Chords in Folk?" thread, which has plenty of links/documentation; but I'll briefly mention others who you may respect: Lomax, Sharp, RVW... Following the same logic, I conclude that music hall songs were performed without accompaniment, because collectors found them being sung unnacompanied. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Phil Edwards Date: 04 Nov 08 - 08:31 AM Listen to, or better still take part in, a sing of Come Write Me Down, Pleasant and Delightful, Thousands or More... If you can't hear the influence of church choral music on the tradition after that, you weren't listening properly. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: KB in Iowa Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:53 AM WAV, I am the one who asked why your parents (and you) moved to Australia when you were three and why you moved back to England at age 30. You imply (04 Nov 08 - 06:12 AM), without actually saying so, that your parents moved to Australia for capitalist/ecomomic reasons. Is that why? You do not say anything substantive about why you moved back. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Stu Date: 04 Nov 08 - 10:28 AM "Can Yorkshire opt out of your brave new world and have as many chords as it likes please? The immigrants can come here too." Er, well can we all opt out then too please? I don't see why Yorkshire should be allowed out and the rest of have to stay in WAV's world. As my old Nan never said, bollocks to that. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:29 PM Melodeonboy may disagree with me on other things, but earlier he made a point that shoud be obvious to even the most ardent pro-immigrationist - there are throughout the nations already regulations on immigration...I'm saying they should be stonger than the status quo. And, KB in Iowa and Volgadon, I genuinely prefer to live in England and, hopefully, visit Australia again as a respectful tourists - for several reasons which, if you are really interseted, you can find in verse. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: KB in Iowa Date: 04 Nov 08 - 12:41 PM WAV, I understand that you prefer to live in England and some of the reasons for this preference but that does not explain why you moved back to England. Please explain why you moved back to England. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Stu Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:52 PM He loves sausages? Rain? Real beer? Fish 'n' Chips? Curries? Falafel? Kebabs? Donky's dicks in batter? Or perhaps he wants to be part of a healthy, tolerant multi-racial society that rejoices in the diversity of the cultures that call these islands home? Because the Aussies threw him out for crymes against rhymes? Because the didgeridoo requires circular breathing rather than one breath every 16.5 notes? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 04 Nov 08 - 01:54 PM "Can Yorkshire opt out of your brave new world and have as many chords as it likes please? The immigrants can come here too." (EC) In Derbyshire we intend to campaign for full rights of polyphony - complete freedom of interweaving counter-melodies, and even the use of 'jazz' chords in a responsible and restrained manner. (possibly with prior warning to those of a sensitive disposition) Take note, WaV, we are prepared to play Gershwin in the street if necessary. On foreign instruments. We will sing rounds until you foam at the mouth, and sea shanties to electric guitars. A statue of Ashley Hutchings will be erected in every market-square. The national headlines will proclaim: "Derbyshire people are revolting!". |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 04 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM You haven't addressed the issue of why you still hold an Australian passport and citizenship. Wav, every nation does have regulations, which is only natural. There is a bit in the Holy Grail where the French reply to Arthur's query about what they were doing in England by saying mind your own business. Governments naturally need to know who it's inhabitants are, but I see absolutely no reason to further complicate things. It affects lives, lives of ordinary people. I speak from personal experience. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 04 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM David, when I said "Where did you pick up this notion? GIVE DOCUMENTATION TO BACK UP YOUR CONTENTION," you responded ". . . short memory, Don, because you were well involved in the 'Chords in Folk?' thread, which has plenty of links/documentation; but I'll briefly mention others who you may respect: Lomax, Sharp, RVW. . . ." I did indeed participate in the "Chords in Folk?" and there is nothing wrong with my memory. I remember quite vividly that I disagreed with your assertions then and I disagree with your assertions on this thread as well. I also remember quite well that the "links/documentation" to which you refer were links to your own web site! NOT ACCEPTABLE! NOT AUTHORITATIVE! Only your own half-baked ideas! Regarding shortness of memory, I'd say that you are the one who doesn't remember that thread very well. Your edicts and proclamations on that thread met with considerable well-deserved derision from many very knowledgeable people. And as to the reading you recommend for me, I have read (and own) all of the works of John and Alan Lomax and Cecil J. Sharp. In addition, I own and have read books by MacEdward Leach, Evelyn Kendrick Wells, and a host of others—I could give you a complete bibliography of the books on folk songs and balladry that now reside on the shelves of a bookcase in my music room that stands six feet high and is four feet wide (all of which I have read, by the way), but I don't care to take the time right now, although YOU could most certainly benefit by reading them—provided you did so with an open mind and in the spirit of trying to learn. I have also studied with the late Prof. David C. Fowler, medieval scholar and author of several books on balladry, including A Literary History of the Popular Ballad. I have read the comments on folk music by Ralph Vaughan Williams and A. L. Lloyd in the Introduction of The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs (from which I have learned many songs that I sing to a guitar accompaniment of my own devising, except for "Benjamin Bowmaneer" which I do sing without accompanied). You might note that they make recommendations, but in no way do they claim that their comments are Holy Writ. If you reread it, you may also note that they do make recommendations as to how to accompany the songs in the collection. Do you even know who Bishop Thomas Percy was and what he did? How about Francis James Child? David, you are a beginner. A neophyte. A tyro. You know very little about folk music and balladry. You should be listening and learning, not trying to tell others who have been dedicated to the study and performance of these songs all their lives how they should be doing it. This forum is a good resource from which you could learn much. So shut up and read!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Smokey Date: 04 Nov 08 - 09:52 PM Don, I've spent nearly 40 years in the music business, 30 of those playing folk music of one description or another, amongst other things. From what I've read here, of and about you, I seem to be a neophyte - where that leaves WaV, I don't know.. Be sure of one thing though - that you have my sincere respect and appreciation for sharing your knowledge and experience, not to mention tolerating my oft warped sense of humour. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 05 Nov 08 - 06:39 AM "WAV, I understand that you prefer to live in England and some of the reasons for this preference but that does not explain why you moved back to England. Please explain why you moved back to England." (KB)...in summary, because I prefer to live in England...the only thing I could add to that said here and in my collection is that I don't have a criminal record in any country and could live in Australia if I wanted to; and, Volgadon, I still have an Aus. passport because I intend to VISIT Australia again...but, for what it's worth, if I had to chose it, and my Aus. citizenship, would be the one I'd give up. For Smokey of Derbyshire... Poem 157 of 230: THE MANY ELEMENTS OF BUXTON - SUMMER 2001 Mineral water, Foliage-dressed wells, Green-grass on the Slopes, Limestone dales, Clay-tiled arcades, Plain-glass awnings, Shaped-iron columns, Stained-glass ceilings, Earthen garden-urns, Wooden inlays, Soil in a cross, Pebble pathways, And, had between walks, Combating the Weather element, Plenty of tea. From walkaboutsverse.741.com |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Ruth Archer Date: 05 Nov 08 - 06:58 AM "in summary, because I prefer to live in England..." Just like Dick Miles prefers to live in Ireland. And I prefer to live in England. Hurrah. So let's just agree to let other people do what makes them happy, and we'll do what makes us happy, and there needn't be any more manifestos about the way forward for humanity. It's called "live and let live." Make up whatever idiosyncratic cod-English rules for yourself that you want to. Take, or leave, the many lessons which have been offered you here in good faith. Whatever. Just stop telling others what they ought to be doing. Because it's when you start judging the choices that others make that they start judging you back. And from what I've seen, you don't really take criticism all that well. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,eliza c Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:13 AM Oh Smokey, I'm so sorry...proud Buxton falls under the pen...we will remember! xe |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: The Sandman Date: 05 Nov 08 - 10:31 AM Poem 157 of 230: THE MANY ELEMENTS OF BUXTON - SUMMER 2001 Mineral water, Foliage-dressed wells, Green-grass on the Slopes, Limestone dales, Clay-tiled arcades, Plain-glass awnings, Shaped-iron columns, Stained-glass ceilings, Earthen garden-urns, Wooden inlays, Soil in a cross, Pebble pathways, And, had between walks, Combating the Weather element, Plenty of tea. let this be a warning to all tea drinkers,you will end up inspired,you could produce such poetic gems. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Nov 08 - 11:49 AM Something about those very short lines suggested to me that Wavy's poems might be best set to reggae tunes - subconsciously he's probably been influenced by reggae all along. For the tea one, "No Woman No Cry" doesn't fit too well, "Burnin' an' Lootin'" is a bit better. Other suggestions? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Stu Date: 05 Nov 08 - 12:38 PM Don't let WAV's poem put you off Buxton - it really is a luverly place; we played a gig there last month in an excellent cafe bar called Beltane. Highly recommended. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 05 Nov 08 - 02:00 PM You can't visit Australia on a British passport? |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:08 PM Volgadon - hopefully for the last time, no: as a dual national, I must VISIT Aus. with an Aus. passport. Traditionally, by the way, when a Lancastrian was in disbelief, they may say "Go to Buxton!" Also, for only a few more days, you may hear a seasonal song from thereabouts (Lancashire/Yorkshire) on myspace: "Cob a Coaling", which I learnt from the family of a just-above critic, but for which I can't find the dots and have only just worked them out myself, via mimicking my voice with my English flute. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:24 PM Got it. The tune Wavy had in mind for his Buxton song was Peter Tosh's "Get Up, Stand Up". |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:29 PM ". . . via mimicking my voice with my English flute." I don't follow this. You mean you took your "English flute" and drilled new holes between the holes it came with? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 05 Nov 08 - 03:43 PM But why don't you give up your dual citizenship? That is what you have yet to answer. |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:16 PM Cob a Coaling? In the bush? A fascinating prospect, Wavy - but I doubt whinging pom-brats blacking-up would have gone down at all well with the Aborigines, but the Aussie Tradition is full of such traditional transferences, such as The Derby Ram, so who knows? We used to sing many of these verses round the streets as nippers, and I've tried to get some of that wildness into recording I made for my forthcoming Naked Season album (Sloow Tapes, Belgium) an edited version of which has been playing on my Myspace page these past few days (and will be removed tomorrow morning, along with the squibs that fell in our backyard through the night). This is accompanied in the Traditional Manner by appropriate Rough Music, in respect of hurdy-gurdy, drum, bells, goat (sic), and suchlike mayhem & hullaballoo which is entirely consistent with the English Ceremonial Tradition; as was, as is, as will be... Not a patch on the version sung in The Cumberland Arms on Saturday Night though, a masterful performance by Lancastrian Keith Blackburn in fine old style - ten verses at least; a calling-on song with any amount of unsavoury characters. This was at Joe Crane's legendary Come-All-Ye; ten singers and twenty students crammed into a backroom with a constant through-put of lively punters heading to the upstairs venue. A real testing ground for singers and songs alike, but when one of those singers is the truly Godlike Louis Killen, you know you're in good company! |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: mandotim Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM Go to Buxton? I'm a Lancastrian. I've never heard this expression anywhere. Your sources, please. Tim |
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Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument? From: s&r Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM It's occasionally used by people who're going to, e.g., Buxton. Stu |
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