BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:36 AM

Actually, it happens to be the truth. But some people are incapable of recognizing the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:37 AM

You being first and foremost of the crew.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:37 AM

Hamas has already indicated that they are willing to recognize Israel's right to exist if Israel will recognize Palestine's right to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:39 AM

No, first and foremost of the crew of people who are not capable of recognizing the truth is the dubious honor belonging to the person who said my post was bull.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:41 AM

That's what they say. So why break the ceasefire? Why attack Israel before, during AND after the ceasefire? You saying it's OK for Hamas to do what it feels it must and Israel doesn't have the right of reply? The Israelis targetted military sites--specifically about 30 Hamas security sites. Hamas just targets anywhere in Israel, regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:43 AM

Gee. Clever response. Have a nice evening, and pleasant dreams while you think of dead Israelis. I'm going home to pray for both of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:48 AM

No, I'm not necessarily saying I agree with Hamas' tactics. I don't feel that I have enough information at this time to say whether or not I agree with them. I know from long experience that many times when the mainstream media and the Israeli government says that it was the other side that ended the ceasefire, that it was actually Israel that ended it, but Israel's aggression doesn't get counted because they always have some kind of "excuse". In the past, when Hamas has conducted a unilateral ceasefire, Israel had continued to conduct targeted assassinations and kidnappings of Palestinians.

I don't have time right now to do the deep research that would be necessary to know the truth of this situation, so I am refraining from forming an opinion about what Hamas has been doing. For this reason, I have also refrained from forming an opinion about Israel's response. However, I do note the hypocrisy of the people who believe that Israel has a right to starve out the Palestinians but the Palestinians don't have a right to defend themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:49 AM

Funny pointing fingers about clever responses after calling someone else's post bull. I'd say that's about the ultimate lame response.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:15 AM

Ok, now I know why Hamas ended the ceasefire. The have said that the agreement that accompanied the ceasefire was that Israel would ease the blockade of Gaza, and Israel has not done so. I disagree with Hamas' tactics in that they have been firing rockets in areas where civilians could be hit (I also disagree with Israel's bombing of areas where civilians could be hit), but I totally agree with Hamas' reason for ending the ceasefire.

Hamas has said that they will stop firing rockets into Israel when Israel ends the blockade of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 04:12 AM

From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:27 AM

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Clinically speaking, it is also a symptom of being psychotic.(true story).

So, is that why Hamas keeps launching rockets??

Frankly, you can't keep kicking sand into Israel's eyes, and not expect to get your ass whipped!

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 04:52 AM

As Art has noted, there has been a significant Jewish population in Palestine since the Crusades.

It's hard to say whether there were more Jews or more Arabs in Palestine at the beginning of the last century - statistics are inconclusive. While both Arab and Jewish sources quote British census statistics of 1931 to support their own claims of demographic dominance, there are many different sources of information, some of which conflict with each other.

this site has a lot of interesting information about statistical records of population and immigration by Jews and Arabs into the area, and which groups (eg Bedouins) may have been excluded:
The population of Palestine prior to 1948

It quotes a number of sources including the Ottoman census of 1893, various British census figures, the Encyclopedia of the Palestinians, and information collected since the mid 1800s by various officials. It also has links to a number of other sites which analyse the question of demographic dominance as well.

It's worth a look.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 04:58 AM

That post was not meant to reduce this situation to statistics, or to deny the dispossession of Palestinian refugees. But to highlight the historical ties of a number of different peoples to the area, including Jewish people, and to show the complexity of the cultural and religious heritage of the area over centuries.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:50 AM

"Even during the cease-fire that lasted 6 months, Israel received rocket fire and didn't respond." (Peace)

Israel continued to carry out attacks which killed people in Gaza throughout the "ceasefire", as well as tightening a blockade which resulted in civilians dying.

Calling an end to the ceasefire was clearly a mistake on the part of Hamas, but it seems to have been something that the Israeli government was intending to bring about. The present onslaught has been neatly timed to take place during the dying days of the Bush regime, and in the run up to Israeli elections in February.

Presenting this as a desperate attempt to stop Israeli civilians being killed is merely spin. It seems certain that many more Israeli civilians are going to end up dead as a consequences of what is now happening - that is how these things always work.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:14 AM

" as well as tightening a blockade which resulted in civilians dying. "

Just as with Saddam and the Oil for Food program ( which he used to build many new palaces) it seems like the Gazans ( as opposed to Palestinians) had no problem in bringing in rockets and morters... So any civilians dieing from the "blockade" are their own fault.


How many countries are supplying power to entities that have declared they wanted the destruction of that country??? Other than Israel, who is expected to put up with what no other country would.




Still waiting for the return of the Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hezboallah, part of the UN mandated ceasefire terms for Lebenon....

Or the disarming of Hezboallah....



Or the blockade by ALL NATIONS required by the UN of arms to Hezboallah....



Oh, that's right... the UN only applies demands upon Israel that they expect to be followed... Nobody else has to bother.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:25 AM

http://masada2000.org/historical.html


Looking at the RECENT history, from 1923 onward, the Palestinian Moslims have had a state (Transjordan), which just happened to be in control of the West Bank and Gaza from 1948 until 1967- AND made no effort to settle the refugees from the "Jewish State"- While Israel settled those Arab Jews that had been forced out of Moslim nations.

Like Pakistan and India, the mass transfer of populations occurred. Unlike that case, Israel still has a large Moslim population.

Pray tell where the large Jewish population of Jordan is?

Oh, yeah- it is not permitted for Jews to live in Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:44 AM

Ho hum...

Same old arguments, no one talkin' about solutions...

I mean, other than me, has anyone even heard of the Saudi Proposal???

(No, Bobert, seems everyone has his or her eyes afixes squarely in the rear view mirror...)

Well, okay... Yes, I did alude to the the length of the conflict but unless we start talkin' about how to end it then, yeah, were are repeating behavior expecting different results...

...insane...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: number 6
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:04 AM

Carolc said .... "It started when European Jews started depriving Palestinians of their homes and their livelihoods."

Yeah ... those goddamned Europeans .... doesn't really matter if they're Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Puritan or some Celtic Pagan .. they just seem to stir up trouble and kick the livin crap outta the locals wherever they go.

ok ... Bobert's correct "Same old arguments, no one talkin' about solutions...'

We should stop looking back into the past completely and start thinking about a solution ... unfortunately people from all sides keep bringing up the goddamned past .... therin lies the problem IMHO.

Anyway .... this thread will go on and on and on ..... just like that problem over in the "Holy Land"

Hmmmmmm ... part of the problem right there maybe .... "holy Land"

I'm outta here

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:22 AM

Bobert,

Step 1. Hamas acknowledges Israel's right to exist and stops trying to kill Israelis.



Still waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:41 AM

Egypt refuses full opening of Gaza crossing

CAIRO, Egypt – The Egyptian president says his country will not fully open its crossing into the Gaza Strip unless Mahmoud Abbas' Palestinian Authority is in control of the border post.

The speech Tuesday from Hosni Mubarak came despite criticism of Egypt in the Arab world over its refusal over the past year to open the Rafah crossing, which has helped complete an Israeli blockade of the territory. Since Israel's offensive in Gaza began Saturday, Egypt has allowed some wounded to cross from Gaza for treatment and some humanitarian supplies to enter the territory.

But Egypt resists dealing with the Islamic militant Hamas because it opposes the militant group's 2007 takeover of the Gaza Strip and insists Abbas is the legitimate Palestinian leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:59 AM

There are two core problems with the Saudi peace proposal. First, it calls for full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967. This includes not only the Golan Heights, from which the Syrian army once fired artillery into the Israeli towns on the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee/Lake Kinneret, but also the Old City of Jerusalem. There is no provision for the security of Jewish residents in Jerusalem, some of whom have moved in since 1967 and some of whom (or their families) have been there for hundreds of years. There is also no provision for access to the Western Wall (the Wailing Wall) of Solomon's Temple, which was (by most reports) used as an outdoor latrine during the Jordanian occupation from 1948 to 1967.

Pledges of Jewish access were not lived up to during this period, so there is understandable hesitation to accept a Palestinian promise to do so. Neither side is particularly interested in the idea of Jerusalem - either just the portion within the walls or some larger, to be determined, area - being somehow made into a "free" city, governed by the UN.

The second major problem is that it requires full compliance with UN Resolution 194, passed in December, 1948. Section 11 of this resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

This was probably possible in 1948. However, we are now 60 years down the road, and the number of refugees and their descendants has grown to 4 or 5 million. In an ideal world, should the property taken be restored to its 1948 condition and returned? Or should the Palestinians be given this land, with 60 years of improvements? Perhaps so, but it will never happen, any more than the tragic history of US seizure of Indian lands will ever be cured by everyone of European descent returning to "where they came from" or a murder be undone by returning the killer to his mother's womb.

Any solution to these problems must look forward, not backward. What is the best, most equitable, resolution? Damned if I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:17 AM

Art,

It also ignores the 820,000 Jews that were driven from Arab nations. ( vice the 640,000 Arab Palestinians who fled from Israel. No mention of any compensation is there for them.

And why are the 1967 borders the ones to be used? How about the 1927 "Jewish Homeland" Mandate lines?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:34 AM

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


"In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:40 AM

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm


Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:41 AM

well said, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: C. Ham
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:58 AM

Below is a blog, well worth reading, written from Israel yesterday, by Rabbi Andy Bachman, of Congregation Beth Elohim, a Reform synagogue in Brooklyn, NY.

Rabbi Bachman's blog


*****

Just the Nasty Business
December 29th, 2008

Every time conflict breaks out among Israelis and Palestinians, the whole world watches, everyone's an expert, opinions and righteous condemnation abounds from all directions, we start the damn thing all over again.

So on my last night here for this leg of the journey in life, I leave Jerusalem with a few impressions.

1. I am not forgetting that when Israel pulled out of Gaza a few years ago, Hamas made the insane decision to destroy and burn the greenhouse facilities that the Israelis left for them, cursed as they were by the Zionist entity. We have still today in the Israeli papers stories of the disengagement, the claims of unjust treatment of Israeli citizens by their own army and their own government, and, in the extreme, ludicrous statements that the architect of this disengagement, Ariel Sharon, is three years into his stroke precisely because the Jewish God punished him for making Jews give up the Jewish land. (So we have our outlandish theories, too.) But Hamas burned greenhouses, whose soul crime was in serving as a tool for the production of food, sustenance and life due to Israeli scientific ingenuity. To add to that: hundreds upon hundreds of rockets have been launched over the borders in varying temperatures of cease-fires–hot, warm and cold–these last few years.

So Israel pulls out, even leaves you with homes and facilities, secured and guaranteed by American dollars (remember James Wolfson's making sure that millions would go to aid Gaza after the pullout?) and it all went up in flames because Hamas took the position that despite the withdrawal, this algebra would be all or nothing. Bombs, bombs, bombs. No acceptance, no peace.

Summer two years ago; Gilad Shalit; the predictable calls for the death of Israel.

What did the paper say today? Nearly 90% of the country says 'enough is enough?' You don't get to those numbers by yourself.

2. We were safe traveling around but went through a few checkpoints. At least from what I could see around Jerusalem, everyone was being VERY cooperative. I saw lots of Palestinians get checked, cooperate, and saw the civil interactions between young Israeli soldiers–male and female–and Palestinians, go off without a hitch. It was just a slice of life–I fully admit–but one had the sense watching that beyond the dramas that are ready like tried and true one act shows (the burning tires, the hurling of stones, the demonstrations) there is a palpable seriousness to this campaign and if you follow Egypt and Jordan and many others, Hamas doesn't seem to have a whole lot of support.

When Ehud Barak stands in the Knesset and invokes the name of Barack Obama

From Haaretz today: Barak also cited a comment made by U.S. President-elect Barack Obama, who visited Sderot during his election campaign earlier this year.

"Obama said that if rockets were being fired at his home while his two daughters were sleeping, he would do everything he could to prevent it," Barack told the plenum.

it made for an interesting moment to say the least.

3. Israelis I spoke to throughout the day conveyed that same unified feeling mentioned above. No other country would tolerate the rocket attacks and just in the last few hours, two Israelis have been killed by attacks in the south. Those attacks, unlike the Israeli aerial assault since Sunday, have been going on for three years. Far be it from the world to jump to any meaningful condemnation of those attacks, or have any real solution for convincing Hamas to stop. Instead, the lack of progress has emboldened Hamas, allied them further with Hezbollah, al Qaeda, and Iran, and only made things worse.

I did not hear from the Israelis I spoke to today, "Kill the Arabs," or "get rid of them all." Rather, I hear, "What are you going to do?" with the typical shrug of the shoulders. As if to say, "We are usually alone in this and we have to defend ourselves."

I will leave for others to debate for now questions of history, rightful and unrightful claims, legitimacy and illegitimacy. Instead, I leave Israel this morning as I usually do: sad to have to say goodbye, despite the mess. Worried deeply for its safety and future and pained deeply that Palestinians and Israelis have yet to make peace.

But no great pronouncements. Just the nasty business of what one must do, and what one must sometimes sacrifice, in order to live.

===

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Stu
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:09 AM

"Any solution to these problems must look forward, not backward. What is the best, most equitable, resolution? Damned if I know."

Small steps. To stop fighting would be a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: C. Ham
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:19 AM

Is Gaza conflict a crisis or an opportunity for Obama?

NEWS ANALYSIS

By Ron Kampeas

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- Does the mini-war underway between Israel and Hamas in and around the Gaza Strip present President-elect Barack Obama's incoming administration with a crisis or an opportunity?

Israel's aerial bombardment, the most intensive in the Gaza Strip in the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, has killed at least 320 people, most of them militants belonging to the terrorist group Hamas, although tens of children were reported dead in surprise attacks on the crowded strip.

The assault, which started Saturday, came after days of intensified rocket attacks launched from Gaza on Israel's southern towns and farms.
The Palestinian rocket fire, launched even before a Hamas-Israel ceasefire formally lapsed Dec. 19, has killed at least four Israelis and is emptying the south of its residents. Ehud Barak, Israel's defense minister, warned of "all-out war," possibly including a land invasion

Buried beneath the fretting over whether the renewed conflict would kill talks between Israel and the relatively moderate leadership of the Palestinian Authority were hints that it could in fact bolster the negotiations, if only by marginalizing Hamas. That, in turn, could help Obama clear the ground for a breakthrough, a prospect Obama's team seemed to recognize by limiting its reactions to expressions of support for Israel.

"He's going to work closely with the Israelis," David Axelrod, Obama's senior adviser, told CBS' Face the Nation on Sunday when asked about the outbreak. "They're a great ally of ours, the most important ally in the region. And that is a fundamental principle from which he'll work."

Washington pundits and officials in European capitals are casting the flare up as a crisis that could scuttle Obama's stated intention of developing talks -- first launched a year ago by the Bush administration
-- into a final status agreement.

Jackson Diehl, the deputy editor of the Washington Post's editorial page, said the war was the final failure for Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister who is to leave office by March to face corruption charges. "His failure represents another missed opportunity for Middle East peace -- and probably means that the incoming Obama administration, like the incoming Bush administration of 2001, will inherit both a new round of Israeli-Palestinian bloodshed and a new Israeli government indisposed to compromise," Diehl wrote in Monday's Post.

Meanwhile, Israel is casting the war first of all as one of necessity:
The bombardment of Israel's south, in the days before Israel launched its aerial counter attacks, at times reached 70 rockets a day. The effect has been to devastate the region's economy and to create levels of anxiety that Israelis regard as intolerable; the retaliatory strikes earned the support of the vast majority of Israelis in weekend polling.

Sallai Meridor, the Israeli envoy to Washingtons, cautioned that the action was not undertaken with the peace process in mind. "The direct reason for these activities is to remove a threat over the head of 500,000 Israelis -- not a theoretical threat, a real one," Meridor told JTA. "Three were killed only today. No country would sacrifice its citizens to terror."

Meridor added, however, that an Israeli success could have salutary effects on the peace process. "Indirectly, the chances for peace are dependent on the weakening of the enemies of peace. If Hamas strengthens, the chances of peace weaken; if Hamas weakens, it contributes to the chances of peace."

In remarks Sunday to his Cabinet, Olmert said the aim was to "restore normal life and quiet to residents of the south who -- for many years -- have suffered from unceasing rocket and mortar fire and terrorism designed to disrupt their lives and prevent them from enjoying a normal, relaxed and quiet life, as the citizen of any country is entitled to."

Another factor might be political calculation. Little love is lost between Olmert and his government partners: Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who has assumed control of his Kadima Party, and Barak, who heads the Labor Party. Yet Olmert, Livni and Barak are united in hopes of keeping Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of the opposition Likud Party who has vowed to bring talks with the Palestinian to a halt, from coming to power; the first post-assault polls show their chances of doing that substantially improving.

The effect Israel's current leadership sought was not simply to remind the public that doves are capable of defending Israel, but that the onslaught would help reinforce the current round of talks. The aim, Director of the Shin Bet security service Yuval Diskin suggested at the weekly Cabinet meeting, is to isolate Hamas. "The mood among a not unsubstantial part of the Palestinian population understands that the operation is against Hamas, which has inflicted great suffering on the residents of Gaza," Diskin said in remarks relayed by Oved Yehezkel, the Cabinet secretary.

That approach was echoed by Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority president, in remarks Monday on P.A. television.

"I say in all honesty, we made contact with leaders of the Hamas movement in the Gaza Strip," Abbas said in a translation made available by Palestinian Media Watch. "We spoke with them in all honesty and directly, and after that we spoke with them indirectly, through more than one Arab and non-Arab side ... We spoke with them on the telephone and we said to them: We ask of you, don't stop the ceasefire, the ceasefire must continue and not stop, in order to avoid what has happened, and if only we had avoided it."

Ziad Asali, an Abbas ally who founded the American Task Force on Palestine, said it was notable that Abbas and other Arab leaders were muted in their calls on Israel to draw back.

"There is a certain withholding of outright support" for Hamas "that usually would accrue to any party in active conflict with Israel," he said.

Arab frustration with Hamas stemmed from its refusal until now to defer to Abbas as the lead negotiator in peace talks and its insistence on armed conflict as the only way to confront Israel, Asali said.

"There is no military solution to this conflict," he said. "At the end of the day there has to be a negotiating process, and the people who are clearly authorized to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians are the P.A. folks."

He warned, however, that there was a limited window to exploit Hamas'
marginalization, and joined a number of dovish pro-Israel groups -- including J Street, Americans for Peace Now, Brit Tzedek v'Shalom and the Israel Policy Forum -- in calling for an immediate cease-fire.

"We don't know how the parties on the ground will react," Asali said.
"We see ever increasing human suffering in Gaza that would add to the pressure to bring about some kind of ceasefire."

Should the bloodshed intensify, the sufferings of ordinary Palestinians, joined with public outrage on the "Arab street" with Israel's actions and the chaotic nature of the conflict, could turn an opportunity into a crisis -- and an Obama administration faced with a crisis on Jan. 21 might not be equipped to respond.

"The issue is how urgently they would prioritize this conflict," Asali said.

Hamas' responsibility for re-launching hostilities, coupled with a desire to corner the terrorist group into deferring to Abbas'
negotiations with Israel, was likely behind the near unanimous backing in Washington for Israel's actions.

Most significant was the Obama transition team's steadfast commitment to Israel's right to respond, albeit expressed with the requisite deference to George W. Bush as the sitting president.

"The president-elect recognizes the special relationship between the United States and Israel," Axelord, Obama's adviser, said on CBS. "It's an important bond, an important relationship. He's going to honor it.
And he wants to be a constructive force in helping to bring about the peace and security that both the Israelis and the Palestinians want and deserve. And obviously, this situation has become even more complicated in the last couple of days and weeks as Hamas began its shelling and Israel responded."

Pressed, Axelrod suggested Obama's strategy would be shaped by his own visit over the summer to Israel's frontlines.

"He said then that when the bombs are raining down on your citizens, there is an urge to respond and act and try and put an end to that,"
Axelrod said. "You know, that's what he said then, and I think that's what he believes."

The Bush administration and congressional leaders of both parties also issued statements squarely blaming Hamas, followed up with pleas to Israel to curb civilian casualties.

"Peace between Israelis and Palestinians cannot result from daily barrages of rocket and mortar fire from Hamas-controlled Gaza," U.S.
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), Speaker of the House of Representatives, said in a statement. "Hamas and its supporters must understand that Gaza cannot and will not be allowed to be a sanctuary for attacks on Israel. "

The White House sounded a similar note: "Hamas' continued rocket attacks into Israel must cease if the violence is to stop. Hamas must end its terrorist activities if it wishes to play a role in the future of the Palestinian people. The United States urges Israel to avoid civilian casualties as it targets Hamas in Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:38 AM

"Yet Olmert, Livni and Barak are united in hopes of keeping Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of the opposition Likud Party who has vowed to bring talks with the Palestinian to a halt, from coming to power; the first post-assault polls show their chances of doing that substantially improving."

Interesting little tidbit about Israel's internal political struggles. Netanyahu holds the same beliefs that have enabled Israel to survive for the last 60 years: fight back. However, but to block his election, his opponents have teamed-up and taken the same hardline policy that Netanyhayu has been advocating.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:41 AM

hmmm...


"Peace between Israelis and Palestinians cannot result from daily barrages of rocket and mortar fire from Hamas-controlled Gaza," U.S.
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), Speaker of the House of Representatives, said in a statement. "Hamas and its supporters must understand that Gaza cannot and will not be allowed to be a sanctuary for attacks on Israel. "

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:21 AM

It's not accurate to talk about the migration of Jews and Arabs into the area that is now Israel and Palestine. The indigenous Palestinians were Semites whose ancestry was mixed with that of people who were traveling through the area from other parts of the world, and over time they became what we now know of as Jews, Christians, and Muslims. They all became "Arabs" when the Arab language spread to the area that is now known as Israel and Palestine. It is inaccurate to separate the indigenous Jews from the indigenous Christians and Muslims into "Arabs" and "Jews". They all became Arabs when the Arab language spread to that area, and they all came from the same genetic background.

The Jews who were not "Arabs" were the ones who migrated to the Middle East from Spain during recent centuries, and those who migrated to the Middle East from Europe during the 19th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:30 AM

Since the blockade only prevented necessities from getting to the civilians in Gaza, but not weapons, then the blockade can only be described as a deliberate attack on civilians, rather than a defensive measure, which is a war crime. It is a war crime to target civilians.

Had the Israeli government honored its part of the ceasefire agreement, whether or not weapons were brought into Gaza would have been irrelevant, since Hamas would not have ended the ceasefire and the weapons would not have been used. So bringing weapons into Gaza has nothing whatever to do with whether or not Israel honored its part of the agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:31 AM

I have to rephrase this part...

"Since the blockade only prevented necessities from getting to the civilians in Gaza, but not weapons to Hamas, then the blockade can only be described as a deliberate attack on civilians, rather than a defensive measure, which is a war crime. It is a war crime to target civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:36 AM

Israel has been ethnically cleansing the Palestinian people from their homeland since 1948.
The Israeli military has spent that time burning villages, demolishing homes , erasing farmland and orchards and massacring the Palestinian people.
It has illegally occupied the West Bank and allowed a bunch of rabid right wing fundamentalist thugs to terrorise the Palestinians.
Gaza itself was little more than sand dunes until the Palestinians were expelled from their homes. Gaza was occupied in the 1967 war and has been,as one of the previous commentator shas pointed out,turned into one giant prison for its million plus inhabitants with Israel controlling its land,sea and air borders [except for its southern crossing point which is controlled by Egypt ].
Yesterday, a small cabin cruiser loaded with medical supplies was attacked , damaged and turned away by Israeli warships way out at sea because it had the effrontery to sail for Gaza with its much needed medical supplies.
In Gaza dozens of women and children have been killed in the past few dayss by Israeli bombs .....hospitals lack anasthetics and other basic necessities and over 1000 have been injured as well as 300 plus killed in the air attacks.
All this on top of the strangling of the city during the past few years.
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:39 AM

I'm also going to point out one more time that Hamas has said that they are willing to recognize Israel's right to exist if Israel will recognize Palestine's right to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 11:41 AM

It should also be pointed out that Israel was already blockading Gaza before Hamas took power.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: C. Ham
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:01 PM

I'm also going to point out one more time that Hamas has said that they are willing to recognize Israel's right to exist if Israel will recognize Palestine's right to exist.

Well there's the whopper of the year.

Israel has long been in negotiations with the Palestinian Authority. Successive Israeli and Palestinian leaders have long been meeting at the highest levels to achieve that. A two-state solution has long been the policy of all Israeli governments going back many years.

What Israel does not recognize is Hamas, a terrorist organization that is also not recognized by the U.S., Canada, Great Britain, France, the E.U., etc.

Most Arab governments -- Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc. also do not recognize Hamas.

Hamas' stated goals -- you can find their charter online -- is to destroy Israel and to impose strict Islamic law on every man, woman and child.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 12:26 PM

There are terrorists on both sides of that war. The Israeli government and armed forces are the much better armed terrorists who enjoy the luxury of a high tech army, navy, and air force to do their acts of terrorism, unlike their Muslim terrorist opponents who are reduced to using primitive weapons such as suicide bombers and inacurrate rockets.

Like all the wealthier terrorists throughout history...people who can afford to field modern armies...the Israelis feel morally superior to their impoverished foes. I can't agree with them on that account. They are not morally superior at all, they're just much better armed and capable of doing much more damage and killing more people. They use the means they have at hand: jet fighters, tanks, a navy, an army. Hamas uses the means it has at hand: guerilla fighters, inaccurate rockets, suicide bombers. Israel kills about a hundred Arabs for every person they lose, but the fight goes on because the only real solution to this fight is a political one, and it will not end until honest political solutions are both sought and accomplished by both sides.

An honest political solution involves the genuine desire for peaceful coexistence. I don't see any real will out there at the top levels to achieve that, because the only rule presently governing their decisions appears to be rule by brute force, fueled by the arrogance that arises out of imagining oneself to be a power that is undefeatable on the field of battle.

The English imagined themselves so once too, when they were occupying and pillaging half of France back in the 1400s. After decades of one-sided victories, they thought they could do as they pleased in France wherever and whenever they pleased, but eventually they got a surprise or two from the French, and they are no longer occupying half of France. This should be remembered by all who enjoy a temporary military supremacy over a conquered and colonized region.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:10 PM

CarolC,

Please see my post here of
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 09:40 AM


THAT is the Hamas charter. Sorry if you have been misinformed as to their willingness to accpet a Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:41 PM

"Since the blockade only prevented necessities from getting to the civilians in Gaza, but not weapons to Hamas, then the blockade can only be described as a deliberate attack on civilians, rather than a defensive measure,"

The blockade has been effective in reducing the flow of material to Gaza. Since it is the Gazans themselves that have decided what material to smuggle in ( using those tunnels from Egypt that Israel had no control over, and has now destroyed) the decision to bring in war material instead of that required for civilians ( food, medicine, etc) is entirely one by Gazans. If I choose to go out and buy a rocket to kill you with, it is hardly fair for me to then claim that you prevented me from buying food for my children with that money.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 01:48 PM

Israel mulls truce offer on Day 4 of Gaza assault
    By IBRAHIM BARZAK and AMY TEIBEL, Associated Press Writers Ibrahim Barzak And Amy Teibel, Associated Press Writers – 48 mins ago

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel is considering suspending its Gaza offensive for 48 hours to give Hamas militants an opening to halt their rocket fire, but the threat of a ground offensive remains if the truce does not hold, Israeli officials said Tuesday.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak is to raise the proposal during a meeting Tuesday night with the prime minister, said two senior officials in Barak's office who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not allowed to make the information public.

Talk of a truce seemed to be the outcome of a strong diplomatic push, particularly from Europe and the United Nations. European Union foreign ministers were scheduled to gather in Paris on Tuesday evening for an urgent meeting on the crisis in Gaza, with France and Germany both seeking a cease-fire.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081230/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians


Since all here seem to agree that a political solution is required, what are opinions if Israel DOES stop, and Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel ( as they have done on previous "ceasefires")?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 02:09 PM

The apologists for Israel make grisly reading . Israeli leaders and their supporters seem to think that the Palestinians can be slaughtered and massacred to the peace table where their land can be further dismembered and their lives further bound and shackled and humiliated in "bantustans" and enclosed behind apartheid walls.

Yet the history of the Palestinian people shows that they will resist the F16 bombers, the giant tanks and the helicopter gunships together with the Israeli assassination squads,prison camps and roadblocks etc.

Israel is an armed and illegal occupier of the West Bank,the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.

Its paramilitary settlers on the West Bank are nothing more than armed thugs who have been terrorising the Palestinians ever since they began to build their hilltop fortified settlements in the aftermath of the 1967 invasion. Their work has been aided and abetted by the Israeli military itself with its numerous checkpoints,roadblocks,Apartheid Wall, rubber coated bullets and all the other paraphenalia of a barbaric occupation.

The majority of Palestinian men in the West Bank have at one time or another been inside the huge prisons operated by the Israeli state.

And Gaza one of the most densely populated places in the world has been occupied,surrounded,threatened and attacked for years by the Israeli military which is of course well armed and funded by the USA and other countries including the UK.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 02:33 PM

The apologists for Hamas make strange reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 04:05 PM

I really had planned on staying out of this discussion…even PMed that I was. I know that there is no changing the opinion on the rightness or efficacy of the Israeli attacks in Jordan. But when I read unsupported statements such as nearly all Palestinian adult males in the West Bank have been imprisoned by Israelis, I need a source.

When pro-Palestinian arguments are made that Gaza has been under constant attack from Israel, I question the credibility of the writer, because I know that not to be true.

When I read moral equivalence arguments stating that killing civilians used as shields is the same as deliberately targeting and killing civilians indiscriminately, then I wonder at the writer's ability to reason coherently.

And when I read deliberate distortions of the history of the area, I wonder if there is more than philo-Palestinian humanitarian feelings at work here.

Lastly, to those of you who blame the imposition of post-Holocaust European Jewry for the problems in the area, perhaps there is a bit of Karma at work:

Read   "Icon of Evil: Hitler's Mufti and the Rise of Radical Islam"
               by David G. Dalin, John F. Rothmann

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, while in exile, and as the guest of Nazi Germany, is shown to be complicit in the 'Final Solution.' Perhaps Israel is a fact, in part, because of the Mufti's actions. Probably such heavy immigration wouldn't have later occurred without Husseini's input and encouragement. His younger cousin, Yassir Arafat, later the head of the PLO, would not live up to the Oslo Accords to which he was a signatory.

The book is heavily sourced, and copies or transcripts of supporting, original documents are provided.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 05:35 PM

The problem, as I see it, is that Isreal insists on pre-conditions before negotiating... This has been a stumbling block all along...

The Saudi Proposal calls for a mutual agreement...

At some point in time this is what will happen if there is ever to be peace, for as lack of a better word, between Isreal and the Palestianians...

I think it is very childish to expect one side or the other to have to meet pre-conditions when it is apparent that this one point has been the stickler going back decades...

Both side are going to have to give a little...

Or not... Maybe because of complete stubborness on both side they will just fight for the next million, no make that gazillion, years...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 06:14 PM

To John on the sunset coast..........
According to the Palestine Ministry of Prison Affairs in a July 2006 statement some 700,000 Palestinians have been arrested since 1967 by Israeli military forces in the illegally occupied territories.
Many have died in prison through torture or medical neglect. Many others have been tortured,beaten,crammed into small cells, hooded ,given inadequate food and kept in confinement without trial...young children are included in this general imprisonment of the Palestinian people who are being illegally occupied by an invading power.
For further information Mudcat readers should google Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons... a wealth of pretty horrible information awaits you. We all know the name of the Israeli soldier captured in Gaza but do we know the names of any Palestinian prisoners incarcerated in one of a number of Israeli jails?
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 07:55 PM

"...arguments stating that killing civilians used as shields is the same as deliberately targeting and killing civilians indiscriminately..."

When police stations and mosques in cities are targetted by aerial bombardment, the civilians inevitably killed are not being killed because they are "used as shields". They are killed because police stations and places of worship are normally sited in residential areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 08:08 PM

Carol, Semites of different religions have lived in the area known as Palestine for thousands of years. Many languages have evolved and then been superceded in and around this area, including various dialects of Aramaic (spoken by Jesus), Canaanite languages, the Moabite language, Hebrew, and Phoenician languages. By the time Jesus was born, the Jews used either the Jewish dialectical version of Aramaic or Greek for most of their writings and in daily life.

The Arabic and Amharic languages emerged in the mid-fourth century C.E. Arabic completely displaced its predecessors after only a few hundred years in the area where Arabic speakers had become politically dominant. Thus all the South Arabian languages and Aramaic, in all its varied dialectical forms, became to all intents and purposes "dead" languages very soon after the emergence of Islam in the seventh century C.E. More info here rise of Arabic

This area has a diverse religious, cultural and linguistic history. It's political problems can not be solved by either party denying the other's historical rights to live there.

They have gone through a painful process in Northern Ireland, a lot of which comprised getting angry, devastated Protestants and Catholics to listen to each other. Change has happened slowly and carefully. I hope it can happen in Israel and Palestine too.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 30 Dec 08 - 10:01 PM

McGrath, you are, of course, writing about the mosques around which they hide and/or store munitions to use in their indiscriminate shelling of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 01:02 AM

By Nidal al-Mughrabi

GAZA (Reuters) - Gaza was largely quiet on Wednesday with just two air strikes reported, a stark contrast with the previous four days of heavy aerial bombardment by Israeli warplanes against the Islamist Hamas-led enclave.

Foreign powers have increased pressure on both sides to halt hostilities and the falloff in military activity may be a sign the Jewish state might be inclined to lessen its assault, although both sides have been cool to the idea of a truce.

The Israeli cabinet on Wednesday will debate a French proposal for a 48-hour truce to allow aid into the enclave. Israeli media said ministers were divided over the idea.

The Haaretz daily reported Olmert was in favor of a ground operation while Defense Minister Ehud Barak wanted a 48-hour truce to test Hamas's readiness for a durable ceasefire.

Israel began attacking Gaza on December 27 against militants firing rockets.

An Israeli army spokesman said two air strikes, one on smuggling tunnels under the border with Egypt and another on government offices in Gaza City, were carried out on Wednesday. There were no reports of casualties.

Hamas said the onus was on Israel to stop the assaults while Israeli media quoted Prime Minister Ehud Olmert as saying the offensive was in the first of many stages.

Israeli media reported that cabinet ministers approved the mobilization of 2,500 army reservists, consolidating an earlier call-up of 6,500 soldiers for the garrison on the Gaza border.

Olmert's centrist government launched the military offensive six weeks before a February 10 election that opinion polls predict the opposition right-wing Likud party will win, with the goal of halting rocket attacks by militants in Gaza.

Medical officials put Palestinian casualties at 384 dead and more than 800 wounded. A United Nations agency said at least 62 of the dead were civilians. Four Israelis have been killed.

France said it would host Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni on Thursday and an Israeli official said French President Nicolas Sarkozy might visit Jerusalem next Monday.

In Gaza, basic food supplies were running low and power cuts were affecting much of the territory. Hospitals were struggling to cope with the high number of casualties from the offensive.

Israel says its air campaign is aimed at ending rocket fire from Gaza, which intensified after Hamas declared the end of an Egyptian-brokered truce with the Jewish state on December 19.

Previous military campaigns failed to halt the salvoes, which rarely cause casualties but often sow panic in southern Israel where one-eighth of the country's population lives.

Hamas seized the Gaza Strip in 2007 from rival Fatah forces loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas. It has balked at demands by Western powers that it recognize Israel and renounce violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 31 Dec 08 - 01:15 AM

BTW, Kevin, if you think I am trying to paint Israel as being 'pure as the driven snow', think again. However, listening to the same claptrap over and over that Israel should just disappear is NOT part of my thinking. That is Hamas' philosophy. They avoid peace talks because their agenda is hatred and the destruction of the State of Israel. I am aware there is an election in February.

Estimates are that between 2002 and now, over 7000 rockets have been fired into Israel by various factions. Has has allowed it to happen over the last few years. SO, that said, what would YOU propose that would ensure the State of Israel its safety? Greeting cards won't cut it. Nor will 'passive resistance'. Does Israel play the game too? Indeed it does. But are we to assume that Hamas was working hard at getting the rockets OUT of Gaza? The mortars?

And if you were in striking distance of those rockets, would you ask the Israeli government to allow the attacks to continue so that Hamas "security forces" could sharpen their aim?