Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 17 May 10 - 02:34 AM

I don't think anyone's mentioned Frankie (of Frankie and Johnny). Although, to some perspectives, she's OK because after all Johnny had "done her wrong".   

But how about the Leaving Home variation (popularized by Charlie Poole in the 1930's). Here Frankie kills Johnny (underneath her silk kimona she drew a 44 gun) not because he did her wrong, but simply because he was going away ("never coming home, goin' away to roam". Probably a borderline personality disordered woman for whom abandonment was the equivalent to death.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 02:38 PM

I'm unsure if anyone's flagged up Fanny Blair on this thread as yet, and I haven't checked. But here it is, and a most fitting submission it seems for the theme, sung by our own MtheGM: Fanny Blair

The lyrics are quite sad, I find myself siding with the child (presumably) prostitute "perjuring whore" for some reason, perhaps simply because the anti-heroine is a theme that always engages me or perhaps it's because of the gathered crowd's murmurings against her and the calls for her to be caught and "cropped".
I wonder what the crime was that he went down for, and what she accused him of? And was he innocent or guilty? And what could his young accuser have gotten out of the whole deal, if she had falsely accused him?

I think these lyrics differ slightly, to those MtheGM sings:

Come all you young men and maidens whereever you may be
Beware of false swearing and sad perjury
For it is by a false woman I am wounded so soon
And you see how I am cut down in the height of my bloom.

It was last Monday morning I lay in my bed
A young friend came to me and unto me said
Rise up Dennis Higgins and flee you elsewhere
For they're now down against you for the young Fanny Blair.

Fanny Blair is a girl of eleven years old
And if I was a-dying the truth I'd unfold
It's I never had dealings with her in my time
And it's I have to die for another man's crime

On the day of the trial squire Vernon was there
And it's on the green table he handed Fanny Blair
And the oath that she swore I am ashamed to tell
And the judge spoke up quickly you have told it well

Dennis Higgins of Branfield whither art thou flown
That you are a poor prisoner condemned and alone
If John O'Neil of Shane's Castle only was here
In spite of (Dawson) n'er known he'd soon set you clear

On the day that young Higgins was condemned to die
The people rose up with a murmuring cry
Go catch her and crop her she's a perjuring whore
Young Dennis is innocent we are very sure

One thing yet remaining I ask you my friends
To wake me in Branfield amongst my dear friends
Bring my body to lie in Merrylee mold
And I hope that great God will pardon my soul

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 03:42 PM

Many thanks, CS. You requested me on another thread for my comments on this song 'Fanny Blair', & how it fits this thread.

I don't actually see Fanny Blair as an anti-heroine, but purely as a villainess. She seems to me to be one of those children that all teachers &c so much have to beware of these days [read the paper practically any week!], motivated by pure malicious intention to stir up all the trouble she can, by making a false accusation of child abuse {rape, presumably; or some sort of sexual interference in any event} against a randomly chosen neighbour, the unfortunate Higgins ~~ surely we are to believe his denials of having ever had 'dealings' with her. When the people, incensed by the judge's insistence on believing her against his denials, 'rise up against her', and call her 'a perjuring little whore', they do not presumably think her an actual prostitute, but use the word 'whore' rather as a piece of abuse against a dishonest woman. I also prefer the end of my version to the variant you give, in which it is Fanny's soul, rather than his own, which he prays God to pardon ~~ it is she, not he, we should surely infer from that, who is the sinner in the whole affair, with her 'false witness ... cruel perjury ... the lies she came out with' [=, in your version, 'the oath that she swore'].

That has always been my take on the song, which I have always found profoundly worrying. The most successful performance I have ever given of it, I have always thought, was one at Linton Folk Club, near Cambridge, years ago, which was met, not with applause, but by a dead pin-drop silence.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 04:07 PM

MtheGM, I thought you'd take the narrator's view *smile*..

But to offer a more modern counterpoint, clearly his *perspective* (the narrator of the song is the accused man) is no more valid than that of Humbert Humbert who utterly charms and seduces the reader, while simultaneously conniving to murder his young wards Mother in order to gain sexual access to her, fantasising about sexually molesting his own eight year old grandchild by her, and indeed proceeding to abduct her in order to fulfill his sexual fantasies through her.

I'm not suggesting that the man accused by Fanny Blair was as much of a charming pervert as Humbert Humbert, but that charming perverts are, well, charming, but nevertheless perverts.

The notion of an 11 yr. old simply "stirring up malicious bullshit" is also far more likely now, than it was back then.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 04:28 PM

I think not: it's just that we make more of a thing now than perhaps previously. Consider following from Wikipedia:-

'While sexual abuse has been prevalent throughout history, it has only become the object of such public attention in recent times.'

Humbert Humbert glories in his relations with Dolores Haze [who is, btw, noted, his step-daughter, not grandchild or any actual blood relation]. She was also 11+, not 8 ~~ same just-about-pubescent as Miss Blair, indeed. Higgins insists on his innocence, and is believed by all his contemporaries: had there been anything in her accusations, he would surely have been met with much more censoriousness than sympathy. "Young Higgins was innocent, of that I am quite sure."

~M~

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Gurney
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 10:14 PM

Michael, that 'Fanny Blair' was the song that got me into folk music. I was persuaded into a folk club -"Hey man, I'm into jazz!"- and heard Barry Skinner of Coventry sing it. Accusatory, and LOUD. Stunning, and as you said happened to you, followed by stunned silence!

I always thought 'Lovely Joan' was an absolute bitch. Con artist and horse thief. Ladies seem to like her, though.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 12:22 AM

Further thoughts next morning: I see the initial attraction of comparing Lolita ~ some obvious thematic similarities and analogies ~ Bert Lloyd & others have used Nabokov's coinage 'nymphet' in reference to Fanny. But Humbert is, explicitly, from the start, the 'unreliable narrator'. It seems to me that, if we don't regard Higgins as a reliable narrator, the whole point and dramatic impulse of the song are lost. To take Fanny's side is surely a perverse interpretation. I am reminded of a production of Measure For Measure I once had to review, in which Lucio recognised the disguised Duke from the start and just meant to wind him up with his libels. It flew in the face of the author's clear intention and simply didn't work. Similarly one of J M Synge's Shadow Of The Glen where the wife knew her husband wasn't really dead all along. The whole song is surely predicated on Fanny's lying and Higgins' innocence: I honestly don't think any other interpretation works.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 06:21 AM

Here's something worth a look: Glimpses into the 19th Century Broadside Ballad Trade. No 3: Fanny Blair

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:35 AM

Worth a look indeed ~~ many thanks, Suibhne.

~M~

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 05:18 PM

Refresh ~~ I am still much exercised by this question as to whose version of events we should believe in Fanny Blair ~~any more views to adjudicate between my view & that of Crow Sister as expressed in posts above, 7 & 8 Aug? Do not wish to be a bore or flog any dead horses, but this seems to me a question worth pursuing.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 05:53 PM

Michael,
I don't think any person using logic could take any other interpretation from this song than the one you give. We only have the text of the song to go on. All versions come from the same viewpoint and don't vary much in text. To try to apply other interpretations is therefore futile and is of the same order as those who try to place allegorical symbolism into perfectly straightforward literal ballads.

Higgins may well have been the villain, but with no evidence of any sort in front of us we can only accept the testament of the narrator.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 06:37 PM

Having now reread the whole of Roly Brown's article mentioned above, it appears we do have the facts of the case or at least contemporary descriptions. These have been researched by John Moulden and the trial and execution were reported in the Belfast Mercury or Freeman's Chronicle, Vol III, No 19, Tuesday October 4th 1785, p3.

The ballad, like many other N Irish ballads, appears to have entered England through the port of Liverpool. The earliest and fullest version appears to have been printed by Armstrong of Liverpool in the 1820s, and from there spread around northern England, a truncated version ending up in the south and printed by the likes of Catnach and Pitts in London.

I have a copy of John's thesis, 'The Printed Ballad in Ireland' and as soon as I get time I'll check out the info he gives.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 10:34 AM

You canna shove yer Granny off a bus,
No you canna shove yer Granny off a bus,
No you canna shove yer Granny cos she's your Mammy's Mammy,
No you canna shove yer Granny off a bus.

You can shove yer Granny off a bus,
Oh yes you can shove yer Granny off a bus,
Yes you can shove yer Granny,
Cos she's your Daddy's Mammy,
Oh yes you can shove yer Granny off a bus.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 03:27 PM

Just come back to this thread to check something, and would suggest that, in this last post by GUEST Patsy, the second stanza should read "You can shove your other Granny off a bus."

That's how Robin Hall used to sing it; & he specialised in Glasgow children's street ballads. & this seems to me a vital point from the semantic/interpretative point of view!


~Michael~

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 03:44 PM

Following on some points made above, I shall in next couple of days be putting my version of Katy Cruel on my YouTube channel


http://www.youtube.com/user/mgmyer


~Michael~

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 05:25 PM

For the only English printing of Fanny Blair that states it to be an Irish song, see the Bodleian Ballads website and search for "An Irish Song, called, Young Higgins Sentence"

http://bodley24.bodley.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/acwwweng/ballads/image.pl?ref=Harding+B+25%282134%29&id=10396.gif&seq=1&size=1

The ballad has no imprint but perhaps someone more versed in the woodcuts of English usage may be able to indicate its printer.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Oct 10 - 08:28 AM

"Katy Cruel' now on my YouTube channel as promised 2 posts back.

~M~

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 05:46 AM

Another nomination, reminded by the married Out Of Hand thread ~~
the female convict married out of hand by the Captain on the way to Van Dieman's Land, who proceeded then to "give us all good usage Going to Van Dieman's Land". Wow!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 05:21 AM

And there are several songs based on the tale of that well-known lupicide, Red Riding Hood*.

~Michael~

*Any truth in the assertion that she had a brother called Robin who was a famous king's-deer-icide?

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:08 PM

What about the woman in "Stone Cold Dead In The Market", based on the traditional song "Murder in De Market," who murdered her husband because of battered woman syndrome?

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 03:56 AM

THE FEMALE FROLIC (English)
OR: An Account of a young Gentlewoman, who went upon the Road to rob in Man's Cloaths, well mounted on a Mare, etc.
Our first record of women taking to the highway for the purpose of robbery and crime is from the 14th century. Since the late 16th century, writers and street poets have been intrigued with the roaring girls, the Moll Cutpurses and those women who disguised themselves as sailors or soldiers, to follow their lovers or to avoid the more mundane cares of women. This kind of piece was probably to the 16th and 17th centuries what the cowboy films have been to our time - the wilds of Hampstead and Highgate were exotic and unmapped. Each heath or highroad had its denizens, and if the denizen was a woman so much the more exotic. This humorous song, known variously as "The Female Highwayman', "The Female Robber', was taken from the Pepys collection of broadside ballads. It is also printed in Alfred Williams* FOLKSONGS OF THE UPPER THAMES.


1    You Gallants of every Station,
Give ear to a Frollicksome Song;
The like was ne'er seen in the Nation,
'Twas done by a Female so young.

2    She bought her a Mare and a Bridle,
A Saddle and Pistols also,
She resolved she would not be idle,
For upon the Pad she did go.

3    She Cloathed her self in great Splendor,
For Breeches and Sword she had on,
Her Body appear'd very slender;
She showed like a handsome Young-man.

4    And then like a Padder so witty,
She mounted with speed on her Mare;
She left all her Friends in the City,
And steered her Course towards Ware.

5    The first that she met was a Grocer
Was walking with Cane in his Hand,
She soon to the Spark came up closer,
And boldly she bid him to stand.

6    She took from him but a Guinea,
And then met a Taylor with Shears,
And because the poor Rogue had no Money
She genteely clipt of his Ears.

7    The next that she met was a Tanner.
For loss of his money he cry'd,
And because he bawled in this manner,
She handsomely tanned his Hide.

8    And then she up with a Quaker,
She told him, she must have his Coin:
Quoth he, Thou silly Wise-acre
Thou shalt have no Money of mine.

9    She show'd him a Pistol to prove him;
He told her by Yea and by Nay,
That since the good Spirit did move him,   
She might take his money away.

10 An Excise-man then she accosted.
And bid him Deliver with speed;
He often of Valour had boasted,
But he was a coward indeed.

11 She Rifled him of his Money
Oh! This was a very rich Prize,
She took from him Four-score Guineys,
That he had for Excise.

12 The next that she met was a Padder,   
Well mounted upon a bay Nag;
Oh! This made her so much the gladder,
She told him she wanted his bag.

13 He thought she would certainly fight him,
Prepared himself out of hand:
But she was resolved to fright him,
She damn'd him, and bid him to stand.

14 He presently drew out his Rapier
And bid her to stand on her guard;
But quickly away she did Caper,
The High-way-man. follow'd her hard.

15 He followed and soon overtook her,
And searched her Breeches with speed;-
And as he did well overlook her,
He found her a Woman indeed!

16 The High-way-man stood all amazed;
But she had no cause to complain.
Tho' with her he did what he pleased,
He gave her the Money again.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: reynard
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 09:38 AM

On the "Heartless girl dumps her longstanding boyfriend and marries another bloke" theme-

If "The week before Easter" counts then so does "Pretty Nancy of Yarmouth". She promised to wait for the sailor and he was only gone a few years...

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 10:23 AM

Nice to see this up again. I've got nothing to add, just love these threads. Whatever happened to CS anyway??? Still off with the fairies no doubt, like she was ever anything else ;-]

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Joe_F
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 09:12 PM

When I was little, in the age of Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo, I wondered if history afforded any *women* of superlative wickedness. My mother thought a moment & suggested Lucrezia Borgia. It seems from Wikipedia that she had enemies who made up a lot of stuff about her for which there is no evidence. However, it turns out that there is also an opera about her in which she poisons five people. Perhaps there is a song in that.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 12:01 AM

It wouldn't tho, Joe, be 'traditional song' as rubricated in the thread title, would it?

~M~