Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?

Subject: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM

I've always enjoyed bad girls in classical literature, and so too have I found the anti-heroine figure in folk songs equally engaging. For example, three songs I've recently enjoyed learning have all included a bad girl or rebel: Three Gypsies for the runaway bride, Rolling of the Stones for the beguiling necromancer, Wild Wild Berry for the inventive poisoner.

Any more?
Your favourite cold-blooded murderesses, sorceresses and down right bad 'uns from traditional songs please!

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 09:48 AM

The lass in 'William Taylor' should fit your bill. See this thread: Click.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: RTim
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM

Young Hunting - in all it's versions

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:18 AM

Surely The Cruel Mother (Child 20) and Sister (Child 10) qualify.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 10:25 AM

I nominate 'Hard-hearted Barbara Allen', from Pepys on...

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:00 AM

The two mothers in Clydes Water and Lord Gregory's mother in Lord Gregory. Alison Gross. The Farmer's Curst Wife. The wife of the Baron of Brackley. They'll do to be going on with.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:10 AM

Surely, tho, mothers are supporting-roles rather than anti-heroines. The anti-heroine must surely be the main character, who is a baddie, rather than just any old nasty female who happens to have any sort of walk-on part?

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Tootler
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:14 AM

Maybe not a bad girl in our eyes, but the lass in Jock O' Hazeldean certainly thumbed her nose at all those who were arranging a "suitable" marriage for her and went off with her own choice of partner!

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:22 AM

Without mothers, none of these stories could have happened.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:23 AM

"The anti-heroine must surely be the main character, who is a baddie, rather than just any old nasty female who happens to have any sort of walk-on part?"

MtheGM to clarify my initial query, I'm particularly interested in 'subversive' or non-traditional (ones who might traditionally be considered negative) female figures, who play a key role in the plot. Such a figure might perhaps be 'shadowy' and not feature as the central character or protagonist, but without her there would be no story to tell.

Otherwise, I'm happy for people to throw up any songs they feel describes interesting subversive female figures. It's been fun to read through the lyrics of the songs suggested so far, and compare these characters!

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:31 AM

Thanks for clarifying, Crow Sister - but might I humbly suggest that in that case 'anti-heroine' wasn't quite the designation you actually intended, as it means by definition an unlikeable heroine, i.e. main female character?

Lady Macbeth is an anti-heroine, as Macbeth is an anti-hero; the three witches are not anti-heroines, they are just bad women who happen to be around and have rather a lot of influence.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:32 AM

Crow Sister. I agree. The mothers I named are crucial to the ballads in question.

Anyway, what about Lady Erskine in Child Owlet? They can't come much meaner than that.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:33 AM

The lady with her 'hair pinned to the ground' in The Three Butchers - anybody's mother in a ballad, Queen of Elfland in Tam Lin, the wife of William Hare and McDougal in Burke and Hare... how long have you got?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:36 AM

They are 'crucial' as villainesses, not as heroines, actual or 'anti-'. Iago is "crucial" to 'Othello'; but he is the villain, not the 'anti-hero'.

Accuracy matters, in nomenclature as in anything else. If agreed definitions are departed from, chaos ensues.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:40 AM

The step mother in Lady Isabel. Accuses Isabel of incest - then poisons her. Oh, and she tells fibs!

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:46 AM

"might I humbly suggest that in that case 'anti-heroine' wasn't quite the designation you actually intended, as it means by definition an unlikeable heroine, i.e. main female character?"

Sure, I hummed and haa'd about the thread title, but it was the best description I could come up with without getting overly verbose!

One point of distinction though, I don't believe that an anti-hero/heroine is necessarily a full on "baddie" (though often they will be) in the panto sense, just a figure who's character and values run contrary to those of the collective or community. We can often identify with the anti-hero/ine where we see them revolting against prevailing social mores for example. Think Robin Hood or any amount of equivalent morally ambiguous figures?

What makes the anti-hero/ine exciting, is their high degree of individuality and the striking impact that the expression of that individuality can have upon the collective.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: celticblues5
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:49 AM

I think the crucial difference is, there is always something to admire (in however skewed a way) in the action of the anti-hero/anti-heroine.

A mother who kills her children is just cruel. A woman who sleeps with a judge to get her lover off the gallows & then kills the judge when he reneges on his promise is an anti-heroine.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Flashmeister
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:01 PM

Amen the cruel mother and also the wife of Lord Randall who is hung at the end of teh epoymous song for poisoning her husband. oh, not forgetting of course the sister Anne in Bows of London who pushes her sister into teh murky river only to be outed by the skeletal violin crafed by a fool from her murdered siters bony remains.

In less gruesome style the best one I can think of at the moment would be in The Ranter where she throws a loaf of bees at the dirty old preacher and pockets his cold - and trousers too!

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Nicholas Waller
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM

It's not traditional, but traditional-style: King Willy from cloudstreet. King Willy has a true love but his evil witchy mother won't let them have a child together... a cruel sorceress, anyway.

Lyrics: http://www.cloudstreet.org/lyrics_swallow.htm
Hear it: http://www.cloudstreet.org/sounds/KINGWILLY.mp3

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: beeliner
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM

Does Hard Hearted Hanna, the vamp of Savannah count?

How 'bout the lady in Mean Woman Blues?

I was going to mention the slayer of Henry Lee - I think that's a variation of Young Hunting, already named.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM

"It's not traditional, but traditional-style: King Willy from cloudstreet.It's not traditional, but traditional-style: King Willy from cloudstreet."

I think that is a traditional song, just more usually known as Willy's Lady (Child ballad No'6).

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:36 PM

From Harry Smith:

Fatal Flower Garden (from Child Ballad 155, Little Sir Hugh)
Frankie (from the long line of Frankie & Johnny songs)

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Nicholas Waller
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:50 PM

@Crow Sister re King Willie being traditional - I stand corrected, and in fact on cloudstreet's site a review of one of their CDs (Swallow the Concertina) makes that point too.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:54 PM

The nurse in "Long Lankin"
The "wicked woman" in "Georgie Barnell"
The midwife in "The Midwife's Ghost"
The wife of the ship's carpenter in "The Demon Lover"

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: GUEST,Tootler
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM

The lady in "The well below the valley" who has killed all her children but she has been forced into incest.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:14 PM

Solvay, or the Female Highwayman.

"Another girl who dressed in men's clothes, high-spirited this time to a dangerous degree. The heroine of this piece has been called "the kinkiest girl in folk song". It's not quite clear whether her name is really Sylvie or Sophie, but of her fortright and adventurous character there can be no doubt.
Lucy Broadwood found this "an exceedingly favourite ballad with country singers", and every collector of prominence has found versions of it. The good Dorian tune here is akin to the one Sharp published to the words of The Flash Lad (he called it The Robber) in his Somerset series, Vol. V, and is substantially the same as H.E.D. Hammond's Sovie tune from Long Burton, Dorset." Bert Lloyd's sleeve notes

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: RTim
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:26 PM

The Mother in The Famous Flower and The Flower of Serving Men!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 01:56 PM

"From: mousethief - PM
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 12:36 PM

Fatal Flower Garden (from Child Ballad 155, Little Sir Hugh)"

Ooh, positively the most eerie song I ever did here! Shiver..

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:05 PM

Isn't it the greatest? I think the way the two voices work together, with the harmony being so sepulchral, hugely magnifies the eeriness of the lyrics.

(But if you listen really closely to the second voice -- does he not sound just a little like Huckleberry Hound?)

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:17 PM

Doh! How could I omit Mad Maudlin's Search [for her Tom of Bedlam]? The best trad. lyrics for an anti-heroine I've seen. I prefer the alternate chorus as printed below, for providing the addition of Tom's voice describing their mutual passionate devotion. A few more verses here than is usual for good measure too.


To find my Tom of Bedlam
Ten thousand years I'll travel,
Mad Maudlin goes on dirty toes
To save her shoe from gravel.

CHO: But I will find Bonny Maud, merry mad Maud
    And seek whate'er betides her
    Yet I will love beneath or above
    The dirty earth that hides her.

I now reprent that ever
Poor Tom was so disdain-ed
My wits are lost since him I crossed
Which makes me thus go chained

I went down to Satan's kitchen
To break my fast one morning
And there I got souls piping hot
All on the spit a-turning.

There I took a cauldron
Where boiled ten thousand harlots
Though full of flame I drank the same
To the health of all such varlets.

My staff has murdered giants
My bag a long knife carries
To cut mince pies from children's thighs
For which to feed the fairies.

No gypsy, slut or doxy
Shall win my mad Tom from me
I'll weep all night, with stars I'll fight
The fray shall well become me.

From the hag and hungry goblin
That into rags would rend ye,
All the sprites that stand by the naked man
In the book of moons, defend ye.

The moon's my constant mistress,
And the lonely owl my marrow;
The flaming drake and the night crow make
Me music to my sorrow.

The spirits white as lightening
Would on my travels guide me
The stars would shake and the moon would quake
Whenever they espied me.

And then that I'll be murdering
The Man in the Moon to the powder
His staff I'll break, his dog I'll shake
And there'll howl no demon louder.

With a host of furious fancies,
Whereof I am commander,
With a burning spear and a horse of air
To the wilderness I wander.

I'll bark against the Dog-Star
I'll crow away the morning
I'll chase the Moon till it be noon
And I'll make her leave her horning.

So drink to Tom of Bedlam
Go fill the seas in barrels
I'll drink it all, well brewed with gall
And maudlin drunk I'll quarrel

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Cuilionn
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:34 PM

How about "The Proud Girl" from the eponymous ballad (not sure which Child #), who in the end is tied to a stake and "burns like the holly green"? Proud, aye...and supremely creepy in her vengeful actions.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:46 PM

Not traditional - but I've always found the character (un-named) in "The Irish Ballad", by Tom Lehrer decidedly scary!

Don't know whether this is a "Cruel Child" Ballad, or a Cruel "Child Ballad", though.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 02:56 PM

Henry Higgins would like to point out that you haven't mentioned Fanny Blair yet.

Tony Blair would like to point out that she is no relation and that there is absolutely no history of lying to get people killed in his family.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 03:43 PM

crowsister where did you get those lyrics? they are great!!!

i nominate lady musgrave of musgrave as an anti heroine. she suduces the little musgrave and when caought this leads to both their deaths. she even ignores the warnings and poor musgraves misgivings.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:31 PM

I second Fred McCormick's nomination of the lady in Child Owlet, whose villainy (framing a man for attempted rape in revenge for his refusal to commit incest) goes, IMO, well beyond mere meanness.

While we are delving into Child (always a likely source for wickedness in either sex), we might well retrieve Queen Eleanor's Confession.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:33 AM

Mary Hamilton, the feathery wife....

Kitty

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:58 AM

Ollaimh, from here: Tom O' Bedlam . Though after a bit more browsing, I think verses from the two songs (ie: 'Tom of Bedlam's Song', and 'Mad Maudlin's Search for her Tom of Bedlam') might be a bit overlapped here, and require a little sifting. In fact I think what most people think of as 'Tom of Bedlam', is in fact more rightly 'Mad Maudlins Search' - as such the alternate chorus I posted above, probably belongs to Tom's Song & not Maudlin's Search! Eh oh!

Interesting factet from Wiki I found about Ms. Maudlin though, apparently "Maudlin" was a form of "Mary Magdalaine" - as the equivalent of the all male 'Bedlam' for women, was the Hospital of St. Mary of Bethlehem.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:00 AM

Crow Sister - Magdalene College Cambridge & Magdalen College Oxford are both always pronounced 'Maudlin' within their universities, so your discovery is no news to us Bluesers. In the song Magdalene Green, however, about the open space in Dundee, it is pronounced 'Madeleine', like a French cake.

Kitty - surely the Feathery Wife a real heroine: no 'anti-' about it?

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:03 AM

"From: Joe_F - PM
Date: 08 Feb 10 - 11:31 PM

I second Fred McCormick's nomination of the lady in Child Owlet, whose villainy (framing a man for attempted rape in revenge for his refusal to commit incest) goes, IMO, well beyond mere meanness."

Cor blimey, you're not kidding there folks! Lady Erskine is quite a one isn't she? What an 'orrible gory song ..gotta learn this one! *smile*

Maddy Prior sings it here in a somewhat rocked up arrangement: Child Owlet

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:23 AM

"From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:00 AM

Crow Sister - Magdalene College Cambridge & Magdalen College Oxford are both always pronounced 'Maudlin' within their universities,"

Tsk is me, yes of course Mike - I really should have known that already!

Otherwise, thoroughly enjoying this thread - keep the murderesses, witches and mad-women coming.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:34 AM

The Oyster Girl

Poor lad ends up with no money and not even a nibble of her whelks!

Has Maggie May been mentioned? Not Rod the Mods version of course.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:50 AM

This doesn't seem to be in DT although it is on a very old thread. Bits of these got assimilated into Dogger Bank.

My love she is a tailoress - a tailoress by trade
And many a fancy waistcoat for me my love has made,
She gets up in the morning and stitches away till nine
Then her high-heeled boots go clattering down the Knickerbocker line.

Chorus:
Watch her, trail her, pipe her as she goes
High heeled boots - and patent leather toes,
That she was one of those flash-girls I soon found out in time
When her high-heeled boots went clattering down the Knickerbocker line.

When first I saw this pretty girl in High Street she did dwell,
She really took my breath away - she was such a swell
She'd a dandy hat with feathers and couldn't she cut a shine
When her high-heeled boots went clattering down that Knickerbocker line.

I took my love to London - to the Theatre we did go,
To see them all a-staring at her - you'd think she was the show.
Comin' out she stopped me - And partickiller asked the time
Then skiddaddled with my ticker down the Knickerbocker line.

When I found my ticker gone - I raised a hue and cry,
I called out to a Bobby - there was one standin' by.
He says to her - Now come with me - and marched her off so fine
It's three months you must shuffle off this 'ere Knickerbocker Line.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

The Jealous Woman - Graham & Eileen Pratt

Dialogue between woman drowning and the jealous woman who will not rescue her, because she desires drownee's husband, and by the sound of it, her 3 brothers as well.

Pretty cool. I have not sung it in a long time. I should do that again soon.

I daren't post the lyrics here as they would still be under copyright.

But you could go to their website and maybe contact them about using it.

http://www.grahamandeileenpratt.co.uk/music.html

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:36 PM

Doh! I forgot The Gay Green Gown! You have heard, maybe even sung that.

Not really a baddie, but she is ruined due to her pride.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:43 PM

I wish I could get my ideas together.

Fine Flowers in the Valley

Mother killed and buried her baby and is haunted by its ghost.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:45 PM

Vague memories of a song from the 60s 'About a maiden is my song, sing rickety tickety tin....did great wrong...family....did every one of them in, them in, she did every one of them in.' Might have been Leon Rosselson or Tom Lehrer or suchlike.

Emma
'I robbed you for I wished to know if you my truelove was or no,
But now I have contented mind, my heart and hand are always thine'

More of a heroine than an anti-heroine really. We have no evidence she robbed anyone but her lover of his ring and that to test his love.

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Tootler
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM

I don't think I've seen the "Black Velvet Band" mentioned. There's an out and out femme fatale if ever there was one.

I mentioned "The Well Below the Valley" earlier. It is a version of Child #21, "The Maid and the Palmer".

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:48 PM

Steve - it was Tom Lehrer: his "Irish Ballad".

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 03:47 PM

"From: Tootler - PM
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM

I don't think I've seen the "Black Velvet Band" mentioned. There's an out and out femme fatale if ever there was one."

Yes, she's a fine bad 'un!

So, I thought I'd look up a few versions to contrast with the usual Dubliners stylee rendering (like this). I found the experience most illuminating, and in the spirit of sharing humbly proffer up these select offerings for your enjoyment pleasure:

Black Velvet Band #1
Black Velvet Band #2
Black Velvet Band #3

Subject: RE: Anti-Heroines in Traditional Song?
From: GUEST,MadAuntieCat
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 05:10 PM

CrowSister, THANKYOU for the extra verses for Tom/Maud, I'm going to use the ones I don't know along with the alternative chorus tomorrow night. (Starting and finishing with the original first and last verses, like I would for Tom).
Maudlin was from Magdalene, it was sometimes used as an euphemism for a prostitute. Hence Mad Maudlin being 'A mad tart' fighting invisible celestial foes, gypsies, sluts, doxies for the love of her madman.

I love this song.