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Who invented Folk Clubs UK
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Les in Chorlton Date: 17 Dec 13 - 03:49 AM Go on Al - tell us about horses not singing - we like that one |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Dec 13 - 04:09 AM I don't: I agree with Bert Lloyd who called it 'a dreary axiom'. I always say the I have never seen a horse dancing in a tutu either: so does that make Swan Lake & Coppelia folk dances? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Dec 13 - 04:10 AM BTW, Les. I did recognise your irony. I was just building on it. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: johncharles Date: 17 Dec 13 - 04:11 AM The clue is in the title "FOLK" club. For those with broader tastes there seem to be a whole raft of events; open mic, acoustic open mike, virtually open mic etc. where anything seems to go. I am told some of these even allow poets to perform; usually a sign for me that I should be elsewhere. john |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Howard Jones Date: 17 Dec 13 - 04:40 AM I would describe the folk scene as a series of concentric circles. If the term 'folk' is to mean anything at all, this must have traditional music at its core – the Harry Coxes, Sam Larners, the Coppers and their like. Surrounding this you have the folk revival – modern singers interpreting traditional material in various ways which we can recognise, if not easily define, as typical of the folk revival aesthetic. Outside this it starts to get more complicated. You have those interpreting traditional material in un-folky ways – I would put folk-rock here, and Bellowhead. I might also include those concert acts which have become too large and dare I say too complex for folk clubs – June Tabor, Kate Rusby, the Unthanks. However you also have those writing and performing non-traditional material that sounds is if it should be trad – writers like Ewan MacColl, Keith Marsden, perhaps Eric Bogle. Further out you have the 'contemporary' folk, people writing their own songs which don't draw much on traditional styles or structures, but nevertheless performing them in a way which bears some relationship to the revival styles found closer to the centre. This might also include those who perform acoustic versions of popular songs. Out at the margins you have the comedians, poets, monologuists, jugglers and other hangers-on who appear to have little connection to traditional folk at all but who have somehow managed to latch onto the folk scene, perhaps because no one else will have them. You might also find those performing music which has no relationship to traditional musical structures and doesn't use conventionally folky instrumentation, and whose only connection is that one of the band once did a floor spot in a folk club. Clearly, the further out you are from the core the more likely it is that there will be disagreements over whether this is really 'folk'. The boundaries are of course blurred. Many performers straddle these zones to a greater or lesser extent, but most can be defined as belonging to one or another. Likewise the taste of most audience members will straddle the zones (as well as encompassing other genres which fall entirely outside this model). Individual folk clubs may centre themselves anywhere, but the further out from the centre they are the less likely they are to be recognisable as 'folk clubs', at least as far as Jim Carroll and those of his way of thinking are concerned (I include myself). Big Al, on the other hand, on the evidence of his website is himself positioned some way out from the centre and therefore understandably considers 'folk club' to be a valid description for these. I think I should patent this idea and offer it to folk clubs as a marketing tool. They could then describe themselves as fitting into Band 1, Band 2 etc, and even publish a graphic on their websites indicating where in the circle they consider themselves to be. Then both Jim and Al will know which ones they can safely visit. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: TheSnail Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:56 AM Not quite, Howard. I think everybody thinks that where they are is the centre and everything else forms concentric rings around that. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:00 AM "The trouble with that is that you have then abandoned all rules and the choice is purely subjective." o I have not Bryan (sorry about previous mis-spelling) We came into the revival back in the early sixties to a mixture of new songs and traditional songs - CND, political songs mainly - no conflict, no attempt to claim one was the other. MacColl always argued that folk clubs might as well be museums if they didn't present newly composed songs using traditional forms - that's what we did, that's what we believed - nothing new, no opening doors to pop songs, just a recognised practice in most cubs. The few clubs that banned new songs and instrumental accompaniment were generally singled out as being 'antiquarian'. This is not what clowns like Al are arguing for (still no specific description Al - must accept that you believe that anything not sung by a horse is a folk song - how quaintly out-of-date). He is not only abandoning any description to what goes on in his club (they were singled out as anything-goes clubs way back when), but he is claiming that whatever goes on in his club, or any club which terms themselves as 'folk' must be folk song - stupid or what? Once again I must bow to Howard's skill with words - he puts it far more articulately than I do. "I don't: I agree with Bert Lloyd" Didn't think Bert supported the singing horse idea. Somebody pointed out that the original statement, whoever said it, what a witty remark that got out of hand when it was taken seriously - am inclined to agree Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:14 AM No, Bert didn't support it Jim. You missed my point. Where I agreed with him was that the 'horse' statement was 'a dreary axiom' [Bert's formulation]. My 'I don't' was an ironic response to Les's "Go on Al - tell us about horses not singing - we like that one". Of course the original 'horse' thing was a silly off-cuff joke [by Satch or Broonzy or whoever is this week's candidate for having first said it] which got taken over-seriously & so got out of hand. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Les in Chorlton Date: 17 Dec 13 - 08:54 AM I like Howard's model - it does describe things very well. What ever the label people give to a public event it needs to help the public understand what the event might be like. Many of us are clear about what we would expect in a Folk Club and Open Mike events have evolved - and more power to them - to give people who sing almost anything - an opportunity to do so. I have been to a few and probably wont go again. But all live music is good. But Al, tell us the one about the horse - you know we like that! |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Dec 13 - 01:58 PM I have never agreed with Bert Lloyd about folkmusic being a minority - ploughmaen lying in bed at night with lonely muse aS they honed their words to perfection. bit of a face saver for traddies who know they sound weird to the general population. when people need a song to tell them about Nelson Mandela -did they turn to one one of Ewan;s many finely crafted songs - no they turned that bloke out of Fun Boy Three, When the Sowetans wanted to protest about Afrikaan being the language used in the school -did theyturn to a product from all their friends in the Critics Group - no they used Pink Floyd's Brick in the Wall. The best song about the English class system - Leon Rosselson maybe - no he hasn't done anything as strong as Pulp's Common People. Folk decide what is folk music. I know you wish it was you. But its not. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Les in Chorlton Date: 17 Dec 13 - 02:36 PM No but Al - the horse, the horse joke it says it all really |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Dec 13 - 02:57 PM "Folk decide what is folk music. I know you wish it was you. But its not. " .,,., Nice try, Al. Good way of trying to bring off what Macbeth said the Witches were doing, of "paltering with us in a double sense". You are not really as stupid as you would wish to appear here, in pretending not to realise that you are using the word "folk" in two distinct senses: a. that of simply a synonym for 'people'; and b. that of the designation for a precise æsthetic genre. You know the difference whatever you pretend; so that your statement is not the wise aperçu, which by your tone you would wish us to believe; but just a not very good or profound pun. So, having demolished this convoluted and inaccurate invocation of the concept of 'folk', to take up your second point: If it's not me, what makes you think it's you? Best regards ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Dec 13 - 03:01 PM "no they used Pink Floyd's Brick in the Wall" Which isn't by a million miles folk music - in Soweto or here - what's your point Al? The Travellers used MacColl's Freeborn Man, Thirty Foot Trailer and the Moving On Song as I means of self-identification - it doesn't make them folk songs either. The ones we interview didn't reckon the C and W songs they all sang as folk either, they folk songs 'the old songs' or my father's songs' or 'Traveller songs (all up for listening at the British Library. It seems the only ones who can't tell their fork arse from their elobows are he folkies from Boggart Hole Clough and the rest of you. Sorry Mike - didn't read your posting in context. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Dec 13 - 03:01 PM "no they used Pink Floyd's Brick in the Wall" Which isn't by a million miles folk music - in Soweto or here - what's your point Al? The Travellers used MacColl's Freeborn Man, Thirty Foot Trailer and the Moving On Song as I means of self-identification - it doesn't make them folk songs either. The ones we interview didn't reckon the C and W songs they all sang as folk either, they folk songs 'the old songs' or my father's songs' or 'Traveller songs (all up for listening at the British Library. It seems the only ones who can't tell their fork arse from their elobows are he folkies from Boggart Hole Clough and the rest of you. Sorry Mike - didn't read your posting in context. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Dec 13 - 04:38 PM 'they folk songs 'the old songs' or my father's songs' or 'Traveller songs' so some travellers that Jim ran into in the arse end of nowhere get to decide what is folk music for all of us. just so we know what you souls liberated from my reasoning are held in thrall by. I think I'd better leave you to it. a life codified and tidied up in definitions supplied by the British Library and 'those in the know'. I think I prefer a life - more life like and untidied up. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Valmai Goodyear Date: 17 Dec 13 - 04:48 PM At the end of 2013, Vic & Tina Smith of Folk at the Royal Oak Lewes are stepping down. We've asked them do a special evening at Lewes Saturday Folk Club on 29th. March 2014 at which they will not only sing and play as usual, but give a presentation on their fifty years of running folk clubs for mainly traditional music. They have always made a point of booking source singers as well as modern performers; their Sussex Singers Nights featuring The Copper Family, George Belton, Bob Lewis, Bob Blake, Cyril Phillips and Scan Tester were an inspiration to me when I was in my teens. The evening will be entertaining, nostalgic and highly instructive for anyone interested in a tested method of running a folk club over a very long time. Entrance will be £5 and floor singers will, as always, be welcome. We'll start at 7.30 p.m. rather than the usual 8.00 p.m. to give Vic and Tina extra time. By the way, I think this presentation could usefully be put on at festivals and anywhere else where people might welcome informed practical guidance about how to run a traditional music club. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: TheSnail Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:23 PM Jim Carroll MacColl always argued that folk clubs might as well be museums if they didn't present newly composed songs using traditional forms So it is OK to sing songs that don't fit the 1954 definition in folk clubs? |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Dec 13 - 05:54 PM snail ....its okay. you don't need anyone's permission to sing anything. its what our dad's fought hitler about - amongst other things. you can even pick your own tradition. tradition comes from latin ; traditio = I hand over. look with honesty at what has been handed over to you. the songs you sang as a child, the songs your parents sang, the songs you used to celebrate love death, the whole shooting match. that's what was handed to you its a great responsibility - don't hand it over to some ideologue who can't see past the end of next weeks session. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Dec 13 - 07:22 PM |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: SunrayFC Date: 17 Dec 13 - 08:56 PM Don't get me started..... |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Bob Bolton Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:49 PM G'day Big Al ... It's a bit of hazard going back to the Latin ... ... '\"tradere": 'hand on' OR 'betray' ... Well, who trusred the Romans anyway ...? regards, BobB |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Dec 13 - 02:37 AM I always fancied being a Roman soldier. I've always fancied Nerys Hughes in The Liver Birds.....its that look. A velour top, a suede mini skirt, maybe a dazzling flash of white panties......I just have a feeling I could carry it off quite well... amo, amas, amat.... |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:37 AM "So it is OK to sing songs that don't fit the 1954 definition in folk clubs?" Who on earth ever claimed it wasn't? Definitions are for discussion such as these and for documentation so we might make some sort of sense of what we do, write about and pass on. As someone who likes to listen to folk song for pleasure, I want the right to choose the type of music I listen to; I what to know what clubs I am likely to hear it in, or what shelves I can find it in a record or bookshop. If I make the effort to go to a club and come away without hearing anything that resembles a folk song in any shape or form, which happened often enough for me to stop going to strange clubs entirely, I feel I have been conned - it's sharp practice; it is no way to assist the music to survive. Having argued with Al before on other subjects, it doesn't really surprise me that this isn't a consideration with him. No musical form will survive if the punters turn up to find that they are being passed off with something else other than what they know to be their choice of music – transfer Al's attitude to jazz, classics, any pop music venue...... and see how much sense it makes. Whatever the weaknesses and however much in need of repair, the existing definition brings with it some form of consensus – it is certainly worth more than the sneers and avoidance it gets som some quarters. Anybody coming new to the music and deciding they want to know something about it can be pointed in a definite direction - the folk song and music is, by its very nature, if different,; it has a different history, its origins and utterances are unique, it's place in our culture has an importance of its own. I came to folk via the clubs – The Spinners opened the doors into a rich varied and entertaining scene for me – from there I could go anywhere I liked without too much trouble. If I wanted to listen to country and western I didn't even have to leave the building – I could go to the basement and hear Hank Walters. I went to The Cavern to listen to the best of jazz (in those days). They all brought with them their own uniqueness and identity – they all stood on their own two feet and said "this is me – this is what I am". Folk clubs used to be part of that uniqueness, now only some of them are and you have to go out of your way to find which ones are and which ones have no idea what they are or what they are doing (Al certainly appears not to be able to explain his music other than to sneer at what others are doing. A newby no longer stands a chance, which can't be good for the music as a whole; I can't see how it can do Al's music any good either if it has no identity of its own. I'm sure you are fully aware of all this - what's your point Bryan? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: johncharles Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:57 AM where did the singing horse get to? Have I missed it? john |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: rosma Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:36 AM I haven't been around as long as some of you, and I haven't been to as many folk clubs as many of you but I have been to a good selection of clubs, sessions, sing-arounds, etc. I know there are exceptions but in my experience most of these include variety. Yes you usually have people providing traditional English, Scottish and Irish folk (and some of my stuff is too) but variety is what it's usually about. If I was visiting a club I hadn't attended before I would be reluctant to sing on the first visit but if I did I would first assess what other people were singing and not stray too far from it if I could. At one set of the sessions I used to go to we would say to any newcomer "Can you sing, dance, recite a poem, juggle?" It's whatever gets people involved. The only limitation is usually that it needs to be acoustic, though a chap did once turn up to a session with an electric guitar and that was OK too - as a one-off. There were strange looks but no one complained. If you can get people in you might just turn some of them to the music you like but if you don't, at least they're keeping it live. I find it's a given that a folk club includes British folk songs and tunes, shanties, European folk, military songs, blues, Americana, humour / parody, singer-songwriter, classical guitar, monologue / poetry, and a few other outliers to make up the mix. Let it long be so, I say. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Les in Chorlton Date: 18 Dec 13 - 05:21 AM Ok Jim, calm, calm ..... I am with you all the way, as I think you know. Do you think the real problem is that Al doesn't know the horse joke? Because surely his position is summed up so well by it and it would save him endlessly repeating all that stuff. Come on Al, either tell us the horse joke or admit that you don't know it. Best wishes |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Dec 13 - 08:47 AM "Ok Jim, calm, calm" This is calm for me Les - you try living off the Atlantic Coast with its pissing rain and forty mile an hour fog - now that's what I call stormy! Rosma It's not really what any club presents that's the problem - it's what it claims to be in the order of things that's the problem and what has caused the damage. Ireland has had the success it has by knowing what it means by folk/traditional. Not only has it attracted a significantly large new following, but it has now become a respected art form, opening the door too large research and performance grants, but also gaining access big time to the media. I can turn the radio or television on and can almost certainly find programmes of and on traditional/folk music and any level of understanding and interest most nights of the week throughout the year. We fought tooth and nail when I lived in the UK just get a central archive of our recorded music - the end result wan the sound archive at the British Library. Irish music is in no way po-faced - it is played straight and experimented with - room fall all tastes and inclinations. The kids coming in are in the process of making it their own music in a way we never managed to. The lesson is a simple one - take yourself seriously, get some sort of consensus and others will respect you, whether the like your music or not. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Dec 13 - 10:09 AM no the Irish and the Jamaicans - they aren't po-faced about their music. but they're po-faced about being Irish, American, and Jamaican - in a way that only the most humourless conservative Englishmen are about being English. And its that inclusiveness that makes our folkclubs so special. Being English is special but not in the way that we need to make a conscious effort and hold our hand on our heart every time the national anthem is played. We've been here for too many years to get insecure about who we are, and to need phoney aides de memoire about what it took to hold on to who we are. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Dec 13 - 10:22 AM You don't need the air time - the credibility, the wherewithal to spread the word - that's what I thought. Otherwise - didn't understand a word of your increasingly gibberish gibberish Still no explanation of what you mean by 'folk Al - c'mon; it's nearly Christmas. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: The Sandman Date: 18 Dec 13 - 11:10 AM "MacColl always argued that folk clubs might as well be museums if they didn't present newly composed songs using traditional forms" Jim, does that mean MacColl was against newly composed songs being sung in a folk club, if they did not use traditional forms. and what exactly did he mean by traditional forms was he referring to melody or construction of song or both? if he meant melody was he implying that those melodies had to use ONLY A FEW particular modes? |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: SunrayFC Date: 18 Dec 13 - 12:59 PM Have you guys no life? Singing is fun! Enjoy it, dont rail it! |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 Dec 13 - 01:13 PM Sunray, don't be such a great big party pooper. Can't you see it's the railing we enjoy! That can be fun too ~~ otherwise why did you post, eh? 〠~M~〠 |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Dec 13 - 01:18 PM "Jim, does that mean MacColl was against newly composed songs being sung in a folk club, if they did not use traditional forms." I was never aware of any prescription of of any type of song being enforced in the club he was involved in. Visitors sang what they wished and were booked on the basis of what they sang and how well they sang them. Residents became residents on the same basis - confirmed club policy. Whether either chose to sing other types of songs occasionally during a performance was a matter for them as long as they didn't interfere with the main policy of the club, though I can't honestly remember residents straying too far from the general folk-repertoire style (the occasional music hall piece being a exception) - matter of personal taste rather than a 'rule'. I have known audience members complain about singers from too many the floor singing non-folk style songs - seen a letter of complaint to the committee about this. MacColl occasionally wrote non-folk-style songs himself - 'Nightmare' springs to mind. Several of the songs for first radio ballad, 'John Axon' were jazz bases and 'The Cabin Boy's Song, from 'Singing the Fishing' was based on Gilbert and Sullivan. A nuber of the residents sang and recorded songs composed by London songwriter John Pole - not all in folk-style by any means. It was never a "rule" - just club practice to confine an evening at the Singers Club to folk and folk-style songs - just as it was in many hundreds of other clubs I visited. I have seen singers (and experienced myself once) specific requests not to sing contemporary songs and I regularly visited several in the North of England which displayed "no instruments" notices on the wall. All cubs have and are entitled to have their own policy, even if that policy is "we have no policy here". The dominance of what you find at a club determines what type it is and the quality of the residents is a measure of whether it is a good or bad club IMO. As for what 'folk style' means - as has interminably been pointed out, if you don't understand folk styles enough to articulate them (not sure I do fully) you tend to recognise them when you hear them. It's not necessarily a question of style anyway - function and utterance can be a determining factor in the uniqueness of folks song. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Les in Chorlton Date: 18 Dec 13 - 01:26 PM Clipperty clop, clipperty clop - come Al you know how it goes |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: rosma Date: 18 Dec 13 - 02:13 PM Jim Carroll: "It's not really what any club presents that's the problem - it's what it claims to be in the order of things that's the problem and what has caused the damage." You imply that the exemplary club of which you speak has a constitution or mission statement which closely constrains the type of music it allows. I'm not sure I would want to get involved in such a strait-jacketed organisation and that certainly hasn't been my experience of folk clubs. sessions and sing-arounds (although I know they exist). A random trawl of the web sites of a few "folk clubs" produced the following descriptions:
That was from the first few links on a Google search. I didn't censor a single club which said "traditional English music only". You seem to be in the minority in thinking "folk club" has a very restrictive meaning. Please don't misunderstand, I have nothing against English traditional music. I just embrace other styles. I once coined a phrase something like "Your folk music is someone else's world music". I think that's quite appropriate. While we may each have a slightly different perspective on what is valid folk music, there's no reason we can't all co-exist, be inclusive, maybe even in the same club. :-) |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Howard Jones Date: 18 Dec 13 - 02:29 PM Al is a singer-songwriter. He has to argue the case he does to justify his own presence in folk clubs. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: rosma Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:24 PM Al's not the first singer-songwriter to do folk clubs and he won't be the last. He has nothing to justify on that count. (BTW I'm not qualified to speak for Al, it's just a general truth) |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:27 PM "has a constitution or mission statement which closely constrains the type of music it allows." Not what I'm saying - please read what I've written. Look - I like arias and small snippets of opera, but I have never been able to sit through and enjoy a full opera (except Carmen) It would be totally unreasonable to expect the opera establishment to adapt their policy to suit my lack of taste - artistic suicide in fact. Yet the folk scene has been told that it has to cater for people who don't like folk music, who find ballads boring, or singers who sing well "elitits" or "finger-in-the-ear posers". People who argue in this manner seem to find it unacceptable that we put on or wish to listen to an evening of the songs that have been termed "folk" for well over a century. Fine if you do't like folk song - go and find somewhere that caters for your own particular taste - just as I will buy an album of operatic arias to suit my own tastes. Live and let live I know what folk music is - we've got a library and an archive of the stuff here at home. We spent thirty years recording Travellers and fishermen and labourers and small farmers who sang folk songs since they were children, as did their parents and grandparents. All of them knew the difference between a folk song and a C&W and a Buddy Holly number - and were able to explain that difference when we asked them. There really shouldn't be a problem Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Dec 13 - 05:25 PM quite right Howard, there is no valid reason for me to darken the doors of any folk club anywhere. the logical conclusion. well done. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: The Sandman Date: 18 Dec 13 - 07:49 PM "MacColl always argued that folk clubs might as well be museums if they didn't present newly composed songs using traditional forms" quote jim carroll. "I was never aware of any prescription of of any type of song being enforced in the club he was involved in" quote jim carroll. jim , you have just contradicted yourself. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: SunrayFC Date: 18 Dec 13 - 10:25 PM Ok. For what it's worth, Al is a worthy addition to any folk club. Come and see why tonight! (19th) |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Dave Sutherland Date: 19 Dec 13 - 03:31 AM So it is only the traddies who have closed minds? I recall going to a club in Leicestershire some eighteen or so years ago to see the Bushbury Mountain Daredevils and at the end of the night while chatting to the organiser he asked who we had the following weekend at Traditions at the Tiger (Long Eaton). When I told him John Kirkpatrick he replied "oh yes, your club is a bit er, er, (almost as if he couldn't bring himself to say the word traditional)" I answered that we were very er,er and he quickly answered "That doesn't go down here!" Since I hadn't heard a recognised folk song all night I was hardly surprised. Another time a former member of ours explained why he had left us to go to a folk club in Derbyshire; we were "too traditional" and that the club he now favoured presented a little bit of folk, a little bit of country, a little bit of contemporary etc in fact all sorts of music. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Dec 13 - 03:31 AM "jim , you have just contradicted yourself." I have no intention of entering into one of your unpleasant vacuous arguments but out of curiosity - why? MacColl was expressing an opinion as to how the folk song revival should develop - we all have those - opinions, that is - nowhere was it a "enforcement" as to how the Singers Club or any other club must me run. Please don't attempt to create "contradictions" where there are none. Over and out Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Howard Jones Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:08 AM Singer-songwriters have always had a place in the folk scene, that's not in question. However in my opinion they cannot be at the centre of something which must have traditional music at its core if the term 'folk' is to mean anything at all. The less any form of music has a recognisable relationship with traditional music forms and structures, the more likely it is to be considered peripheral and the less likely it is to be accepted by everyone as appropriate fare in something describing itself as a 'folk club'. Al's argument appears to be that because the 'folk' have abandoned traditional music in favour of popular music, 'folk' no longer has any meaning and it follows that anything goes in folk clubs. It's not a judgement on quality - I've never to my knowledge heard Big Al sing but I've no reason to question those who compliment his performances. If I were at a folk club and Al, or another of his ilk, were to do a spot I would be entirely unsurprised. What's more, I would probably enjoy it. However if the entire evening were to comprise singer-songwriters and performers of popular songs I would start to question whether I was actually at a 'folk club' or something run on similar lines which was actually something else. The other side of the coin is that people who prefer this music may not want to listen to traditional music. A term which is too broad and too loosely defined doesn't serve anyone. It's a question of labelling, and like it or not labels are convenient. I don't expect to go into an Indian restaurant to find a menu of mostly Chinese food. I think the problem is that we don't have an accepted label for those clubs which have a broad music policy or which don't centre themselves around traditional music (as they are perfectly entitled to do). They used to call themselves 'contemporary folk clubs' but that seems to have fallen out of favour. 'Open mic' is perhaps too broad and too far towards the popular music end of the scale. So we end up with the catch-all term 'folk club' which in practice is interpreted too broadly to be of much help to anyone. |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: GUEST Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:30 AM "the club he now favoured presented a little bit of folk, a little bit of country, a little bit of contemporary etc in fact all sorts of music." "we don't have an accepted label for those clubs which have a broad music policy" .,,. I remember Peter Bellamy saying, at a Norwich Festival workshop at which Alex Atterson was speaking up in favour of such clubs, "That's not a folk club, that's an anything club"; which seems to me as good a name as any for such resolutely undiscriminating organisations. "and like it or not labels are convenient" Amen. Something else Pete would often quote in such colloquies was something I wrote once in Folk Review, after Karl Dallas had denounced the folk scene's love for categories: "Hurrah for categories. If every article of household furniture was called a chair, we shouldn't know where to park our arses". ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:31 AM The folk never really "abandoned" folk music for anything - folk and other music always existed side-by-side until 'the folk' stopped making their own music and became more or less passive recipients to a manufactured and commercially produced culture. This left behind a large repertoire of songs that had existed, sometimes for centuries - which is where we came in. To suggest that the term 'folk song' became meaningless is equivalent to saying that anybody could write an Elizabethan madrigal (made during the reign of Elizabeth I) today - a "new" Elizabethan madrigal, maybe! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: GUEST Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:35 AM "the club he now favoured presented a little bit of folk, a little bit of country, a little bit of contemporary etc in fact all sorts of music." "we don't have an accepted label for those clubs which have a broad music policy" .,,. I remember Peter Bellamy saying, at a Norwich Festival workshop at which Alex Atterson was speaking up in favour of such clubs, "That's not a folk club, that's an anything club"; which seems to me as good a name as any for such resolutely undiscriminating organisations. "and like it or not labels are convenient" Amen. Something else Pete would often quote in such colloquies was something I wrote once in Folk Review, after Karl Dallas had denounced the folk scene's love for categories: "Hurrah for categories. If every article of household furniture was called a chair, we shouldn't know where to park our arses". ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: MGM·Lion Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:48 AM Sorry about above double-entry sans cookie, which had gone awol. Now restored and I hope all now sorted. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: The Sandman Date: 19 Dec 13 - 07:29 AM MacColl was expressing an opinion as to how the folk song revival should develop - we all have those - opinions, that is - nowhere was it a "enforcement" as to how the Singers Club or any other club must me run." MacColl along with others determined a policy for the singers club,which you have stated on this forum[please correct me if this is not the case] was that singers should choose traditional repertoire from their own ethnic back ground, are you now saying this was not the case? you also appear to be saying that he approved of newly composed songs providing they were in a traditional style, I asked you for some indication as to how this traditional style is determined, you appear to not want to answer. Ewan was very a good songwriter, I would have been interested in the answer, was traditional style based on tunes [that only used certain modes] or lyric structure or both? |
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Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK From: The Sandman Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:11 AM MacColl" was expressing an opinion as to how the folk song revival should develop - we all have those - opinions, that is - nowhere was it a "enforcement" as to how the Singers Club or any other club must me run." jim carroll quote. here is a copy of peggy seegers letter, from this letter it is clear the singers club had a club policy which they enforced at their club. Ewan MacColl Controversy - by Peggy Seeger I confess, I confess! I was the one who started the whole 'policy' debate. The Ballads and Blues Club had been going really well since 1953. I arrived in London in 1956. The club met at the Princess Louise in High Holborn at that time and there was an impressive list of residents: Alan Lomax, Ralph Rinzler, Isla Cameron, Fitzroy Coleman, Seamus Ennis, Bert Lloyd, Ewan MacColl, et al. Bert was singing English, Australian, N. American and Scottish songs; Ewan was singing 'Sixteen Tons' and 'Sam Bass' alongside 'Eppie Morrie' and 'The Banks of the Nile'; I regularly sang French, German and Dutch songs alongside 'Barbara Allan' and 'Cumberland Gap'. Fitz and Seamus stuck, respectively, to their Jamaican and Irish material. Alan only sang songs that he and his father had collected in the USA. There were many floor singers who came and went - the Weavers turned up from New York and sang in three or four different languages; a west London couple came regularly and sang in Yiddish, a language which they did not speak; two French students would sing Spanish Civil War songs; and so on. It was a free-for-all and I will admit that it was a lot of fun. More about that at another time. It was that Cockney lad singing Leadbelly who started the rock rolling downhill. Was it 1960 or so? Yes, it was that poor fellow whose rendition of 'Rock Island Line' reduced me to hysterical laughter one night. I was literally doubled over in my seat, gasping. I had to be taken out of the room. Most unprofessional, but I couldn't help it. I am North American. Woody Guthrie, Jean Ritchie, Big Bill Broonzy, Leadbelly, et al, used to come to our house in Washington. I knew what the song should sound like and the manner of delivery and the insertion of Cockney vowels into a southern USA black prisoners' song just sounded funny. I was reprimanded by several members of the audience at the end of the evening. When I explained my reasons, one of the French students pointed out that the insertion of my American vowels into French songs was also quite laughable. I then mentioned that Ewan's rendition of 'Sam Bass' verged on parody. My children have since pointed out that my Scots accent (on a number of Seeger-MacColl records) is not exactly impeccable. But I am straying… the Cockney singer then confessed that he loved Leadbelly's songs but was losing his confidence in singing them. He was getting bored. I declared that I preferred singing songs from the Anglo-American traditions and only sang the French/German/Spanish songs for 'variety'. The discussion heated up and was a main topic of conversation for several weeks following. We laid the matter in front of all the residents and interviewed the folks who paid at the door on the subject. The decision to lay down guidelines for what you could sing on stage was not made by Ewan MacColl - it was made by the residents and members of the B&B Club (later known as the Singers Club). If it became hewn in stone - well, that's the way things go. This policy was meant for OUR club, not for other clubs. The policy was simple: If you were singing from the stage, you sang in a language that you could speak and understand. It didn't matter what you sang in the shower, at parties, while you were ironing or making love. But on stage in The Ballads and Blues Folk Club, you were a representative of a culture - you were interpreting a song that had been created within certain social and artistic parameters. Incidentally, along with this policy came the request from our newly-formed Audience Committee that we not sing the same traditional song more than once every three months… they were getting tired of hearing the same songs week after week. This forced us residents to learn new songs at an unholy rate. But it brought out lots of new songs and ballads and really got us thinking about how we sang what we were learning. Shortly afterwards, the Critics Group was formed, at the behest of several singers who also found that they were losing their way in singing traditional songs. We began to attract singers who wanted to study folksinging. You know, there is no set discipline for folksinging - it's an 'anything goes' area even though real dyed-in-the-wool field singers are very specific about how they sing and what they sing. The purpose of the Critics Group was to make it possible for the singers who had not been brought up in the 'folk' tradition to sing the songs in a way that would not abrogate the original intention of the makers. It was an attempt to keep the folksongs folksongs, not turn them into classical pieces or pop songs or anything-goes songs. We analysed accompanimental and vocal styles, tried to expand our abilities to sing in different styles so that we could tackle different kinds of songs (within the languages and dialects that we spoke) and still keep the songs true to themselves. Once again, we were not initially telling other singers how to sing - just deciding how WE were going to sing. If we became evangelical and sounded dictatorial, well - that's the way things go. The intentions were honourable. I must admit that I am still going that way and tend to be rather intolerant of female singers lilting 'Ranzo Ranzo Way Away' as if it were a lullaby or a love song; of a band of instrumentalists producing 'Sir Patrick Spens' (which had been unaccompanied for several centuries) with four fiddles, two double basses, drums, electric guitar and unintelligible lyrics. It was such a good song… but OK. Just don't call it folk song. And while you're at it, listen to some of my own early recordings - say on the Fellside album "Classic Peggy Seeger". Listen to me in my early years singing so fast that even I (who know the words of the songs) cannot understand what I am singing. Or listen to me accompanying Ewan on sloshy guitar or overharmonising with him on 'Lassie Wi' the yellow Coatie'. We all do these things in our youth and before we have understanding (just wish I hadn't recorded them). Ewan did this himself in his early recordings and never pretended that he didn't. What he was really trying to do in his later years (and I will be the first to admit that sometimes we could both be hamfisted about it) was encourage understanding of where these songs came from and how easy it is to ruin them, to turn them into something else. Kind of like what's happening to the earth right now. We're all doing just what we want to a beautiful piece of natural art (aka nature) - and only just now beginning to worry about having to live with the mess. Unfortunately, that's the way things go. And so many of the intentions are not honourable. I've done my share of 'changing' the folksongs. Had to. I wasn't brought up on the front porch of a cabin in the Appalachians and I don't care to pretend that I was. I had a middle-class classical musical training and that's hard to shake. But I don't pretend to be a folksinger or that the folksongs (as I sing them) are 'ur' versions. I am a singer of folksongs and I hope that my lullabies are lullabies and the words of my ballads are intelligible. Ewan MacColl was one step nearer to being a folksinger than I, having been brought up in a Scots community in Salford. He is a man who is a perfect example of the old saying "stick your neck out and someone will chop your head off". I didn't know, until after he died, just how many enemies and ex-post-facto critics we had made. WE. Please remember that he and I were in this together and you can now aim your missiles at someone who is still here and who is quite articulate on the matter. Pity more folks didn't have the courage and the knowledge to talk with him while he was alive. He was actually an interesting, approachable person and was happy to talk to anyone who approached with a less-than-hostile attitude. I learned so much from those years… and, of course, I am biased! I am also fed up with people who criticise him with only hearsay and second (third, fourth, umpteenth) knowledge on which to base their opinions. The editor wants to know "Who are Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie?" They were members of the Critics Group for most of the life of that group. They were two of the most loyal, industrious and intelligent members by far. It is possible that they have inherited some of Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament (that's the way things go?) but there is no doubt that their work in the folksong world has been invaluable and dedicated. Most of the collectors who've done that have had a kind of tunnel vision, without which their work would not have been as productive. They stuck their necks out and their heads are getting chopped off. They are in good company. Like Ewan, I've always got lots more to say but I don't care to argue all this out nitty blow by gritty blow. By the way, I'm just finishing up a book of his songs. 200 of them. 'The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook' (Music Sales, autumn 2000). Those of you who have followed or partaken in this controversy might find my long critique of him as a person and an artist enlightening. It won't be what you expected from the person who was his lover and working partner. Information is on my website: www.pegseeger.com. Peggy Seeger, Asheville North Carolina Living Tradition Homepage |
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