Who invented Folk Clubs UK

Subject: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 06:10 AM

Whilst the EFDSS help to create branches (?) of Dance Clubs across England from the 1930s (?) onwards, who invented Folk Clubs in the sense of small gatherings, usually in rooms above pubs, where people sang folk songs?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:00 AM

'Who invented Folk Clubs UK'

Reginald 'Reggie' Cholmondley from Tonbridge Wells.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:19 AM

It wasn't so much an invention as a spontaneous borrowing from other types of religion, though modelled (obviously) on those who were of the more where-two-or-three-are-gathered-together-in-my-name persuasion but who still favoured a modicum of public worship in the name of a (theoretically) open door policy than of those who were moved to architecture.

Whilst there was no One Person who invented them, each Folk Club tends to favour an Autocratic Leadership, benign or otherwise, who can make or break a session depending on their mood.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:28 AM

in my opinion the network of folk clubs were set up in the uk by people IN THE 1950S most of whom had left wing political beliefs, some of these organisers from the 1960s are still running folk clubs, and I feel we are greatly indebted to them

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:36 AM

It was me. I admit it was my fault. I am also responsible for beards, Aran sweaters and pewter tankards.

After 40 years of marriage I have come to the conclusion it is easier to take the blame for everything...;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery.
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:54 AM

There were a whole spate of Jazz clubs set up in similar environments (ie Pubs) in the mid to late 1940's,to enable enthusiast to meet and share live music in congenial company.
One of the earliest and most famous was at the Red Barn at Barnehurst in Kent, where George Webbs Dixielanders featuring Humphrey Lyttleton, played for some years. The Red Barn is often credited with being the home of the "Trad" jazz revival in Britain. I suspect that with the growth of interest in Folk Music in the'50s enthusiasts where looking for a similar environment to share their chosen music, and naturally gravitated to similar venues.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Geoff the Duck
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:43 PM

Les
Unfortunately many of the people who were directly involved are no longer with us.
This link may give you a starting point for where to ask questions or what questions to ask.
History of the Topic Folk Club, Bradford - 1956 to present day.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Geoff the Duck
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:51 PM

The description given of Jazz Clubs is definitely similar to what I have heard described of the early days of the Topic. Members originally listened to recordings of names such as Big Bill Broonzy, then as time went on, some learned guitar and started singing the same sort of stuff. Others discovered more local songs and worked on those.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 01:10 PM

Numerous claims - among the the earliest were the concerts at The Theatre Royal, Stratford with MacColl, Lomax and others which later became The Ballads and Blues (MacColl again, Isla Cameron, Fitzroy Coleman and occasionally Joe Heaney Bert Lloyd and Seamus Ennis (among others)
Have poor quality snippet of a radio programme somewhere on this.
The Topic Folk Club (Bradford?) is also an early claimant.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Frank Lee
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 06:18 PM

FWIW Newcastle's Bridge folk club, mentioned in the Topic website, founded in 1958 certainly hasn't been in the same venue since the start. It was started by Louis Killen and Johnny Handle at The Barras Bridge in the Haymarket, then moved to the Liberal Club in Pilgrim Street before moving to the Bridge Hotel, around 1961 I think, where it has remained to date.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 01:47 AM

Several years earlier than the Bridge & the Topic, tho, there were the 'skiffle' clubs ~~ a sort of jazzy/folky genre which involved impro'd household implements like washboard played with thimbles for the percussive element & bass made from a teachest & string ~~ see the very informative Wikipdedia article on "Skiffle". It is hard always to follow directly as to 'what grew out of which?'; but there is surely no doubt that the origins of the folk club as we know it were intimately bound up with the brief but influential 'skiffle' craze of the early-mid 50s ~~ many who liked folk were interested by the skiffle phenomenon, & folk songs might well be heard during the 'open' part of a skiffle evening.
Note particularly the following from wiki --
A large number of British musicians began their careers playing skiffle in this period, and some became leading figures in their respective fields. These included leading Northern Irish musician Van Morrison and British blues pioneer Alexis Korner, as well as Ronnie Wood, Alex Harvey and Mick Jagger; folk musicians Martin Carthy, John Renbourn and Ashley Hutchings; rock musicians Roger Daltrey, Jimmy Page, Ritchie Blackmore, Robin Trower and David Gilmour; and popular beat-music successes Graham Nash and Allan Clarke of The Hollies. Most notably, The Beatles evolved from John Lennon's skiffle group The Quarrymen.

~M~

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,iain
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 01:54 AM

Dereck Sargeant started a club in Kent in 1956 before moving to Surbiton Assembly rooms in the early 60's. This ran for 16 years.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 02:00 AM

I should perhaps have made above the important point that skiffle in this country grew out of jazz; in particular the habit of Ken Colyer's jazz band of taking occasional breaks which would be filled by the banjo player, one Lonnie Donegan, bringing on a couple of friends with washboard & string bass to provide an entertainment he had become interested in called 'skiffle'...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 02:59 AM

Yes I concur with all said above! if it matters

Tommy Steele and early coffee bars, public houses and the traditional singers of Walter Pardon, Fred Jordan ilk etc

Jazz and American influence,Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee pivotal Lonnie Donegan and Wallie Whyton Bert Weedon, TV and Joe Brown

Post War and Cold War and Communism, somewhere were people made own entertainment and met convivially ~ Social History an awareness/performance poetry

Topic and Leeds Grove (both still active!!)

Barnsley Local Authority leaned more toward "popular" entertainment using Folk Music and the early creation of professional folk entertainers and musicians [Dave Burland for example]

Scottish/Irish/Welsh music, empowerment of the working classes!!

I won't bother with the book

Ray

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: OldNicKilby
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 04:59 AM

I have the minutes and the programmes for a "Folk Club" that was operating in Leicester in 1933 to 1937, it may have lasted longer. It seemed to be the Brain Child of Eric Swift. There was a constitution and of course a committee. I found the documents when I bought Eric's library of Folk Books at an auction. I think that Doc Rowe has other evidence of early clubs

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:20 AM

Earlier than any of the London 1950s clubs so far named were the St Lawrence of Cambridge University, founded about 1952 by Rory McEwen, Stan Bootle [Kelly], Leon Rosselson, Joe Miller, et al. I think the Oxford equivalent [the Heritage, I think it was called], of which Tony Rose & June Tabor were members, was going at about the same time.

~M~

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 09:23 AM

Some of the folk clubs - like the Lancaster Folk Stir I used to go to in the mid-1960s - started off as folk dance societies dedicated purely to folk dance. They then morphed into folk dance and song and, eventually, lost the dance element completely. I can still remember the main organiser - Mrs. Gladys Parkinson - who seemed to me to be always slightly bemused by the singing that went on!

Not all went through that change in precisely the same way, but Lancaster was a typical example of its kind.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:49 PM

MtheGM.
Lonnie Donnegan, was the Banjo player with Chris Barbers Band, this band also featured a "Skiffle" Group, with Chris, playing the Double bass instead of his usual Trombone.
Ken Colyers Skiffle group featured Ken himself I believe on Guitar and Vocals.
Certainly the Skiffle Boom was a Bridging Point between jazz and Folk in the mid to late 50's

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 06:32 PM

Henry Piper,
Chris Barber formed a co-operative band and when Ken Colyer came back from New Orleans they asked him to be their trumpet player. Lonnie Donegan was the banjo player. I believe this was the line-up that recorded "Isle of Capri" under Ken Colyer's name. I can't be sure if the skiffle group happened while Ken was part of this group and whether Ken was part of it but when he was later voted out by the co-operative (he didn't approve of the rhythn section)and formed his own band he also had a skiffle intermission on his shows when he put down his trumpet and picked up the guitar, Johnny Bastable played banjo and Mandolin.


Hoot

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,enfield/swindon Pete
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 03:01 AM

Do not forget Ted and Ivy Poole setting up Swindon Traditional Folksingers Club in 1960. Still going strong as they are too.

Cheers Pete

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 03:28 AM

Seems fairly obvious that a serious and unbiased history of the revival is very much needed - anyone with five minutes on their hands?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 03:58 AM

Good point - I believe Jim Carrol is just the man to do it!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 07:15 AM

Nah - too old and biased - having too much trouble remembering.... now what was the question again?
MtheGM would get my vote
There have been plenty of bits and pieces to sift through and choose from on threads like these with a mass of stuff I had no idea was out there.
Heard a nice lecture by Peta Webb some time ago on Topic Records, and one on the radio on the same theme entitled 'Little Red Label' (utterly spoiled by agenda, in my opinion, but still...)
Folk Britannia had stacks of information, somewhat drowned out by the sound of axe-grinding in places.
Ian Watson's 'Song and Democratic Culture in Britain has a great deal to be drawn from.
Fred Woods's pot-boiler 'Folk Revival' is a pleasant enough read, but has too many 'spot-the-not-really-deliberate' mistakes to make it any more than that.
I really hoped that Dave Harker's 'One for the Money' was really going to help push the boat out, but sadly, it didn't.
Mike Brocken's efforts - best passed over maybe.
All of these have valuable information, experiences and opinions to be drawn from, but don't, in my opinion, come anywhere near being complete and often in need of verification.
Don't know Bill Leader's, Mike Yates's or Dave Bland's situation nowadays but all are wells of information to be drawn from.
Hootenanny has given us much information on the earliest days.... the list is endless.
I have always thought that if a sufficiently open mind could be found, the job really wouldn't be that difficult - time-consuming maybe, but certainly not impossible - what are you doing next week Les?
Now where's me pills?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 11:22 AM

Much appreciated, Jim. But don't think I could raise that sort of energy these days. Or, probably , live long enough to complete such a project. I am 81 years & 97 days old today.

~M~

Do you know a poem by George Oppen, American poet, 1908-1984?:-

Old Age

What a strange thing to happen

To a little boy 

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 12:25 PM

Shame.
Happy 81/97 Michael
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 01:26 PM

And a Happy Unbirthday right back to you, Jim...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 02:23 PM

Here is a clip on You Tube. Malcolm Taylor of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library hosting a group of people from the early days discussing the beginnings of the clubs in London. You might find it of interest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhJYUuqgoNk&feature=youtu.be


Hoot

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Henry Piper Of Ottery
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 03:35 PM

Hootenanny,
You are of course Correct, I had forgotten the Colyer/Barber joint Effort. 'As I recall Colyer didn't like the rhythm section, finding them unsympathetic to his purist New Orleans Philosophy, and attempted to sack them, but was himself fired by Barber and the rest of the band, to be replaced by Pat Halcox

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 04:52 PM

hootenay, thanks,
as i said people like ewan and bert with strong political beliefs, andpeop;le like tedand ivy poole and others have kept it going

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 09:27 PM

You can read all about the jazz/ blues / skiffle > folk interface of the late '40s onwards through the '50s in Pete Frame's excellent book The Restless Generation. It's a shame that people like Eric Winter and John Hasted from that era are no longer with us, but apparently Eric donated his considerable archive to Folk Roots.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Little Robyn
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 01:23 AM

One of the first places that offered folk music in NZ was The Monde Marie in Wellington.
Visiting folkies were usually taken there after their concerts. People like William Clausen, Judy Collins, Theodore Bikel etc were all important 'guests' at Mary's coffee bar, from the late 50s until the early 70s.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 05:12 AM

Not an expert on New Zealand folk clubs but one of the regulars at the Ballads and Blues Club in the early 60's was Curly Simon. He also started a late Saturday night club downstairs at The Student Prince in Soho. It was a convenient place to go after the Ballads and Blues club finished for the evening. Curly went to live in New Zealand and opened the Poles Apart Folk Club. I know that people such as Pete Stanley and Malcolm Price went over to play there, maybe others have more knowledge.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 02:24 PM

Thanks to all so far. seems like the roots of the venue - upstairs or backrooms of pubs is based in the Trad Jazz and Skiffle boom of the 50s. Skiffle was certainly the way in for many of us Baby Boomers.

Also explains the massive presence of guitar players and American Songs right from the start. No other particular reason why the guitar should be used so much to accompany English Folk Songs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:20 PM

Not sure about that ~~ see Oliver Goldsmith's The Vicar Of Wakefield, 1766; in which the eponymous clergyman's daughter frequently sings to her own guitar accompaniment. Thread 3 or so years ago on Guitar in folksong, iirc.

~M~

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 12:00 PM

My money is on Sir Patrick Spens in a valiant and reasonably successful endeavour to achieve immortality.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Aug 13 - 12:37 PM

The thread I ref'd 2 posts back was called

"History of British Folk Guitar"

& ran from January to November 2010

~M~

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 03:22 AM

Anybody back from a fest and have a view on this?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Evan johnson
Date: 22 Aug 13 - 08:48 AM

I came home on leave from the navy in 1957 and found my eldest brother Theo was running Bunjies Folk Club in the cellar of a coffee house in Litchfield, Street London.
Dave Waite, and Roger Evans were part of the group called the Whalers.
I taught them many of the songs I had heard as a child and ended up as a Folk singer in 1959 when I cam ashore.
I became resident at Bunjies two nights a week, One with Terry Masterson and the other with Tony Mcarthy.

THere were folk clubs springing up all over and almost 200 in the Greater London area. Many of them were listed in the Melody Maker so an old copy might help.
I worked with many great singer including Alex Campbell, Diz Disley, Jonny Silvo, Sandy Denny, Tom Paxton, Jackson C Frank, and many others.

They were great times and I still include the odd folk rendition when playing gigs today.
I also worked extensively in Scotland, North East and Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,GUEST,Terry Masterson
Date: 29 Nov 13 - 10:44 AM

Hi Evan,

Have to pick you up on that one! I took over from you at Bungies, as your brother Theo said you were going off diving - in Cyprus, if my memory serves me correctly - and for a short while was resident with Tony McCarthy (forgotten about that till you jogged my memory) until he was replaced by Ron Simmonds. I played on Monday nights for a couple of years (I think) before going down to help run clubs on the south coast from 1964 onwards, when Scotsman Jack Whyte wrote to tell me Brighton was "wide open for folk music!", as he put it. Wonderful days! The audiences were so enthusiastic.

The first folk club I ever sang in was on Eel Pie Island, Twickenham, run by American Sandy Paton, back in the '50s when I was at art school.

Talking about Ron Simmonds, I ran into him in Spain just last week. Hadn't seen him for over 40 years and he's just as cheeky as ever!

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 10:04 AM

I think it was Bob Dylan who invented UK folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 10:15 AM

Terry: I used to sing at Eel Pie Island also, & was a friend of Sandy's while he was here in late-50s. Are you the young man who sang Irish songs, who turned up on my recommendation at one of the Cecil Sharp House monthly Sunday afternoon sessions which I happened to be chairing and sang "Are you there, Moriarty?"?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Folklore: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 10:54 AM

Ballads and Blues was established in 1954 - MacColl, Bert Lloyd and others participated in a concert to raise money for setting it up.
A couple of years earlier there were Sunday singarounds at the Theatre Royal Stratford (East London. which included MacColl, Lloyd and Alan Lomax.
Circa 1952 seems to be the front runner for a starting date.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 11:03 AM

"....Bob Dylan who invented UK folk clubs."
Which would make Bob Dylan about 11 - advanced for his age
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 02:46 PM

He was very precocious, his first song was about Brigitte Bardot.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 03:40 PM

Wharever happened to Tony McCarthy? I remember him from around 1960/1/2. He played the concertina. He was an activist for CND, and was part of the setup at Sanity' magazine. I haven't heard of him in years, until this thread that is.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Nov 13 - 07:25 PM

its an odd business, Jim. I suppose you're right about MacColl being the first.
however what we call folk clubs - you say aren't really what folk music is about. so perhaps what he invented wasn't what we call folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 01:03 PM

The EFDSS was running a folk (song) club in Cecil Sharp House in about 1949 - I am not at home at the moment so don't have the exact date to hand. There was also a Birmingham Folk Song Club from about 1949 / 1950, and also the club in Cambridge juat about the same time (see earlier message from Michael GM). All these pre-dated the MacColl initiatives, although the latter perhaps had the larger impact on how the rest of England (especially London) developed.
Derek

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 13 - 01:12 PM

"What he invented wasn't what we call folk clubs."
Who's "we" Al - it's a word that's been doing the rounds since 1836
It would be far to contentious and a waste of time to ask hat you call "folk" - haven't had any takers so far.
Would be fascinated to know what happened at the early EFDSS clubs Derek - Sharp had folk 'gatherings' - but I don't know anybody who ever really counted them as 'folk cluubs'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 05:11 AM

Jim Carroll,

Re your posting 13th August. Somebody must have taken 5 minutes or possibly more. We can expect the results within a few months.

Can't tell you more at the moment.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Who invented Folk Clubs UK
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Dec 13 - 05:22 AM

Ok Folks as the OP herabouts let me restate something or other. By the mid 1960's Folk Clubs could be found all over the UK. Generally, in or above pubs, they would meet regularly, have some residents who started the evening, guests who did a couple of 30 minute spots, floor singers, a charge to get in, a raffle and an audience many / some of which would be regulars.

Oh, and people sang 'folk songs' - no, no lets leave that alone for now.

Where ever we went around the country we could find one and know what the routine was.

By the 1970s thousands of these clubs existed. The evolved into other things - Singers Clubs, Sessions, dance clubs and events, concerts & festivals.

Amazing really.