BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: BobL
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:10 AM

There was once a cyclist I didn't see in time. I was driving in town on a wet December night and had stopped in a queue of traffic, which a cyclist overtook. When I moved off, he was almost alongside me and a little bit too close.

I can't say he wasn't showing lights, in fact the front of the cycle was festooned in them, of all colours - white, red, green, amber - the lot. Normally he would have been well visible, but at this time of year his display formed a perfect camouflage against the background of Xmas shop windows. So despite checking my mirror before I moved - and I did check - I didn't see him and almost knocked him over. Fortunately, only almost.

Sorry, I drift.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 08:11 AM

Same here, Doug. I always make sure that I SHOULD be visible when cycling. Not that that makes a difference to some drivers :-(

I almost went on to a roundabout that a cyclist in dark clothing and no lights was going round in the wrong lane yesterday! Luckily I did just spot a blur of movement before I entered the RB and avoided him.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 11:06 AM

But you did see them, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 12:03 PM

I was walking, not driving a car and having to concentrate on all the other traffic.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 01:14 AM

Two factors are highly protective for cyclists: a low speed limit - around 30km/h is the sweet spot, but it has to be throughout a city or the drivers ignore it; and growing numbers of cyclists.
The 30km/h speed limit works well because it stops drivers dashing frantically to the next traffic lights.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 03:26 AM

"The 30km/h speed limit works well because it stops drivers dashing frantically to the next traffic lights."

That did make me smile.

I have not owned a car for over 20 years now. 20 m/h would be a good idea in towns here in the UK, as long as it was enforced. Unfortunately speed limits are not enforced often enough in the UK. There is also a growing trend to ignore red lights too.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:30 AM

Some sense at last.

Colorado trucker’s 110-year sentence reduced to 10 years after outcry

"The governor commuted Rogel Aguilera-Mederos’s sentence and the 26-year-old will be eligible for parole in five years."


Of course someone should look at reforming the minimum sentencing laws.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Aug 22 - 05:25 AM

From the BBC

Bikers mark third anniversary of Harry Dunn's death

"A band of bikers have held a "rev-off" in memory of a teenager who died in a crash outside US military base on the third anniversary of his death.

Harry Dunn, 19, was killed near RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire, in 2019, when it is alleged a car driven by Anne Sacoolas hit his motorbike.

The US national later left the country, claiming diplomatic immunity.

Riders who gathered outside the US Embassy in London were told "Harry will not be forgotten".

Mr Dunn's death on 27 August sparked a transatlantic diplomatic row.

It is alleged Ms Sacoolas's car struck his motorbike just after she left the base. It has been said the car was driving on the right side of the road when it should have been on the left under the UK's Highway Code.

She had diplomatic immunity asserted on her behalf by the US administration following the crash, because her husband Jonathan worked for a US intelligence agency at the base. They then both left the UK.

Ms Sacoolas is yet to face a criminal court. She was due to appear at Westminster Magistrates' Court in January, but days before her appearance, the Crown Prosecution Service said the hearing had been "vacated".

++

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 06:08 PM

From the BBC

"The case of a US citizen accused of causing the death of teenage motorcyclist Harry Dunn by dangerous driving will be heard in court on Thursday.

Mr Dunn, 19, died in a collision outside RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire in August 2019.

Anne Sacoolas had diplomatic immunity asserted on her behalf by the US administration and left the UK.

The case against her will be heard at Westminster Magistrates' Court.

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) made the decision to charge Mrs Sacoolas with the offence in December 2019.

This is the first time the case will have been heard at a British court, following a diplomatic row between the two governments.

It has not been confirmed whether Ms Sacoolas would be required to attend the hearing.

A hearing was originally scheduled for January this year, but it was vacated by the CPS to "enable ongoing discussions".

The Dunn family said they would not be commenting on the case until the conclusion of criminal proceedings."

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 11:21 AM

From the BBC

Harry Dunn: Anne Sacoolas admits causing crash death

"A US citizen has admitted responsibility for the death of teenage motorcyclist Harry Dunn in a case that caused a diplomatic row between the US and British governments.

Anne Sacoolas, 45, pleaded guilty at the Old Bailey, via videolink, to causing his death by careless driving.

Mr Dunn, 19, died following a crash outside a US military base in Northamptonshire in August 2019.

His mother Charlotte Charles said she had now completed her promise to him.

Judge Mrs Justice Cheema-Grubb said Sacoolas would be sentenced at the end of November.

"I direct that Mrs Sacoolas attends court in person to be sentenced," the judge added.

She was charged with causing death by dangerous driving but the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) accepted her guilty plea to the lesser charge.

Death by careless driving carries a maximum sentence of five years imprisonment but a community punishment or suspended jail sentence is often given.*

Of course it remains to be seen if Sacoolas deigns to attend the court in person for sentencing.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jun 24 - 09:23 AM

From The Guardian

Harry Dunn’s mother ‘unspeakably hurt’ that son’s killer will not attend inquest

"Harry Dunn’s mother has said she is “unspeakably hurt” that her son’s killer, Anne Sacoolas, has refused to attend the inquest into his death, saying it was “bitterly disappointing and, as a mother, utterly incomprehensible”.

An inquest into Dunn’s death opened on Monday, almost five years after the 19-year-old was killed when his motorcycle collided head-on with a vehicle driven by Sacoolas that was on the wrong side of the road outside a US military based in Northamptonshire in August 2019.

Last year, Northamptonshire coroner Anne Pember invited Sacoolas to attend the inquest remotely, an offer which “had not been taken up”, the inquest heard. Her evidence will now be read out in court instead.

Speaking through tears, Charlotte Charles, Dunn’s mother, told the hearing that “learning that Anne Sacoolas will not be attending Harry’s inquest this week was bitterly disappointing and, as a mother, is utterly incomprehensible to me”.

“She could have chosen to give me and our family this opportunity to finally understand what led to Harry’s death that night. But no,” she said. “I am unspeakably hurt that she has chosen to hide instead and it cannot help but feel disrespectful to Harry, the life he had and the future he lost.”

Inquest proceedings were delayed due to a years-long fight by Dunn’s family to bring criminal charges against Sacoolas, who had diplomatic immunity asserted on her behalf by the US and left the UK 19 days after Dunn’s death.

The family’s campaign for justice included meeting Donald Trump at the White House to ask the then president to review a decision to block an extradition request for Sacoolas."

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jun 24 - 11:40 AM

A good reason, if one were needed, to refuse to extradite Julian Assange to the US.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jun 24 - 08:02 PM

Rain Dog, I am a little perplexed by your comment that

"his motorcycle collided head-on with a vehicle driven by Sacoolas that was on the wrong side of the road outside a US military based in Northamptonshire in August 2019."

Surely if she was on the wrong side of the road, as you suggest, she collided with him.

I realise this may seem pedantic, but in a court of Law blame, or guilt, is decided on our choice of words.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: NightWing
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 12:26 AM

RaggyTash: If you're going to be pedantic, do it up right.

It is equally incorrect to say that Vehicle A collided with Vehicle B OR to say that Vehicle B collided with Vehicle A. The correct phrasing would be that Vehicle A and Vehicle B collided.

The only exception I can think of to this would be if one of the vehicles were motionless: Vehicle A collided with a parked vehicle.

Nonetheless, it's fairly common usage and does not carry any implicit or explicit hint of fault.

BB,
NightWing

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 11 Jun 24 - 04:44 AM

Rain Dog, I am a little perplexed by your comment that

"his motorcycle collided head-on with a vehicle driven by Sacoolas that was on the wrong side of the road outside a US military based in Northamptonshire in August 2019."

Raggytash, the comment is not Rain Dog's. It's a quote from the newspaper article that Rain Dog provided a link to. You need to take it up with the Guardian, not here.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jun 24 - 02:03 PM

Steve I hope you were just in quick story mode when you posted that nonsense about Americans changing side of road traffic due to the War of Independence. Using terms you yourself employ, that was a load of bollocks.

As to the diplomat's wife, what happened was a tragedy to which shame was appended. I don't think it was a good idea to claim immunity in this circumstance and I would like to think that behind the scenes American officials urged the 'right thing'. What I don't know is if beyond taking responsibility the woman was looking at a significant time behind bars which may have influenced her behavior.

I was once in a fender bender where I was an American driving in a Commonwealth country. It wasn't a case of injury or even being on the wrong side of the road, but I took full financial responsibility and no one tried to hinder me leaving the country.