Maritime work song in general

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 10:44 AM

Steve: "Your own translation might be more helpful..."

I don't speak twenty-eleven languages like Burton so, I doubt it. Look at how different the Latin-English academic translations of Polybius are (above,) each one by the 'expert' linguist neither you nor I are.

Sooo, fwiw, I would agree about the pirate opera but then, it's 16th and 19th century poetry and not naval science. I wouldn't expect dry nonfiction either.

Fwiw: the original looks more like "weighing anchor(s) with the customary grita." No mention of specific ergata.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 10:02 PM

Westernized more than a bit. I have no luck posting Greek or Hebrew online. See links below for the mother alphabets.

“Keleusma, Hortatio, I T.heff. 4.16. Celeusma, ut Latini quoque loquuntur, Stephan. In Thef. This word fignifieth fuch kinds of fhouts or watch-words as men that row, or vintage-men, do use, to encourage or call upon one another, Deodate in locum. It fignifieth properly that encouragement which i Mariners ufe to one another, when they altogether, with one fhout, put forth their oares, and row together.”
[Critica Sacra Or Observations on All the Hebrew Radices, 1650]
Strong's Hebrew 1959   – hedad – a shout, shouting, cheer.
Strong's Greek 2752 – keleusma – a shout of command.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 10:04 PM

“Celeume. The fhout, or noyfe that mariners make when they weigh anchor, or doe any other office in the fhip with joined ftrength; an incouraging found.”
[A Dictionarie of the French and English, Cotgrave, 1660]



“Celeufma,tis. The mark-word given to keep time with all the benches of rowers in a gally.
Celeuftes,is, or æ. The boatfwain that gives the word.
Proceleufmaticus, a, um. Likethe cry of the Boatfwain. Pes Proceleufmaticus, A foot of four fhort fyllables.”
[Dictionarium Minus, Wase, 1662]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 10:46 PM

“Confortare: incitare à qualche cofa. Hortor, âris; uel hortâre, hortâtus fum, hortári. Verbo deponente. Terentio.

Confortatore dei marinari à navigare. Hic celéuftes, celúftæ. Bud.

Grido uniforme di marinari à far qualche loro opera. Hoc celeúfma, huius celeúfmatis; &hoc celeûma, huius celeúmatis. Mart.”
[Prontuario di Voci Volgari et Latine Copiosissimo, 1665]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 06:22 AM

“Celeufma vel Celeuma, atis; n. Gr. Mart, a ><, jubeo,... quod a Euft. The fhout or noife which Mariners make when they do any thing together with joyned ftrength, or when the Mafter doth call and encourage them.

Celeuftes, æ; Bud. Gr. Such an exhorter or encourager, fuch a maker of noife: he that doth moderate the faying, and calleth on the Mariners, to hearten them in their bufineff. Portifculus, Enn. hortator, Nonn.

A drudge in a fhip. Mefonauta.

A galley-flave. Mefonauta, neut.

A Mariner. Navigator, nauta, remex, navita, naviculator, navicularios.
that ruleth the foredeck. Proreta, m,
They which take fhip, and inftead of paying their fare, do the duties of mariners. Nautepibatæ, arum; m.
Belonging to mariners, Nauticus, adj.

Paufarius, ii; m. GelI… Sic a Sen. vocatur, qui remigibus modos dat, & remgandi officium quafi quâdam paufâ moderatur: portifculus. One that giveth a fign when a paufe or reft fhould be made in the doing of any thing; he that commandeth the rowers or mariners to ceafe rowing, or (as fome fay) the Mafters mate.

Farus, ri; Ifid. vel Pharus… Eft turris maxima, quam Græci & Latini in commune ex ipsius rei ufu pharum appellaverunt, ex-Graec... quod flammarum indicio longè videatur a navigantibus. An high tower on the Sea coaft, wherein was light to fhew the ready entrance for mariners to the haven.

(Ship)
He that draweth a fhip or barge by a rope, or that drawith packs into a flip, Helciarius, m
He that ruleth the fore-deck of a fhip. Proreta, m.”
[A Copious Dictionary in Three Parts, 2nd ed., Gouldman, 1669]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 06:24 AM

“They that will appear in the Quality of Diffenters, muft ftem the violent Current of prevailing Example, inveterate Cuftom, whilft others have nothing to do but skull away with the Tide, when it comes in, with the Celeufma of Queen-hithe, Weftward hoe, Lambeth hoe!...”
[Melius Inquirendum, Alsop, 1679]


“Celeume, the fhout of noife that Mariners make when they weigh anchor, or do any Office in the fhip with joyned ftrength.”
[A Dictionary of Barbarous French, Miege, 1679]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 06:25 AM

“O! HISSE. O! Halle; ô! Saille ô! Ride. Tous ces termes font criez par un homme dans de certains travaux; mais en différens tems, foit qu’il faille hiffer quelque chofe, la haller , la pouffer, ou la rider. Ce cry fe fait pour faire réünir toutes les forces des travailleurs afin d’agir de concert; car lorfque celui qui donne la voix prononce un O, avec une voix traînante, chacun fe prépare pour l’effort qu’il faudra faire, & en achevant le mot, comme, Hiffe, tous travaillent à la fois.

SAILLE. Eft un mot du commun des matelots, qui eft prononcé par plufieurs joins enfemble, enélevant, ou pouffant quelque chofe.

UN, DEUX, TROIS. C’eft jufqu'à ce nombre que compte celuy qui donne la VOIX pour faire haler la Bouline.

VOIX. à la voix. C'est être à la portée de la voix.

A la VOIX. Se dit encore commé un commandement que l'on fait a
quelques gens de l’Equipage, pour les faire travailler à la fois, lors qu’on donne la Voix.

Donner la VOIX. Cela fe dit d’un homme qui avertit par un cri articule, du travail que plufieurs hommes doivent faire. Voiez ô hiffe &c.”
[Dictionaire des Terms Propres de Marine, Desroches, 1687]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 02:36 PM

Back to before the beginning, two thousand four hundred years… and counting. Anybody want to try posting the original Greek text for Heave ho!...?

PEACE” c.421BC (Aristophanes)

HERMES
(to the Chorus) Now at my signal, everyone, start hauling, and pull on those ropes!

CHORUS LEADER
Heave ho!

CHORUS
Heave!

CHORUS LEADER
Heave ho!

CHORUS
Heave again!

CHORUS LEADER
Heave ho!
Heave ho!

TRYGAEUS
Hey, these men aren’t pulling equally! Pitch in, there! How puffed up can you get? You’ll be sorry for this, you Boeotians!

CHORUS LEADER
Heave ho!

CHORUS
Heave!

CHORUS LEADER
(to Hermes and Trygaeus) Come on you two, help us pull!

TRYGAEUS
(taking hold of a rope) Aren’t I pulling then, and hanging on, and falling to, and doing my best?

CHORUS LEADER
Then why is our work going nowhere?…

CHORUS LEADER
We’re getting nowhere, men. Come on, we’ve got to take hold and all pull together. Heave ho!

CHORUS
Heave!

CHORUS LEADER
Heave ho!

CHORUS
Yes, heave! [sic]

CHORUS LEADER
We’re moving it only a little.

TRYGAEUS
Well, isn’t it awfully absurd that some of you are going all out, while others are pulling the opposite way? You’re looking to get whacked, you Argives!

CHORUS LEADER
Heave ho!

CHORUS
Heave!

CHORUS LEADER
We’ve got some malcontents here.

TRYGAEUS
Those of you who itch for peace, at least you’re hauling bravely.

CHORUS LEADER
There still are some who hinder us.

HERMES
Men of Megara, why don’t you go to hell? The goddess remembers you with hatred, for you were the first to daub her with your garlic. And to the Athenians I say: stop hanging on to where you’re now pulling from; you’re accomplishing nothing but litigation. If you really want to pull this goddess free, retreat a little seaward.

TRYGAEUS
Come on, men, let us farmers take hold, all by ourselves.

HERMES
Look, men, you’ve got the job moving along much better.

TRYGAEUS
He says the job’s moving along! Now everyone put your heart into it!

HERMES
Look, the farmers are pulling it off, and nobody else.

CHORUS LEADER
Come on now, come on, everyone!

HERMES
Yes, we’re nearly there now!

CHORUS LEADER
Now let’s not slacken, let’s instead
exert ourselves more manfully still!

HERMES
There she comes!

The eccyclema gradually emerges through the central door, bearing the statue of Peace and her attendants, Cornucopia and Holiday.

CHORUS
Heave now, heave, all!
Heave, heave, heave now!
Heave, heave, heave all!...”
[Henderson, ed., Aristophanes II, Clouds, Wasps & Peace, (Cambridge: Harvard U. Press, 1998)]

Note: Original Greek text on alternate pages omitted here.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 02:43 PM

Back to the 17th century and the 'ol Greek ululatu is still soldiering on in fine proceleusmatic style:

“XXV. Itaque nonnulli miferarum reliquiarum in montibus deprehenfi acervatim jugulabantur: alii fame confecti accedentes, manus hoftibus dabant in ævum fervituri, fi tamen non continuo trucidarentur, quod altiffimæ gratiæ ftabat in' loco: alii tranfmarinas petebant regiones, cum ululatu magno ceu celeufmatis vice, hoc modo fub velorum finibus cantantes: Dedifti nos tanquam oves efcarum, & in gentibus difperfifli nos Deus: alii à montanis collibus, minacibus praeruptis vallati, & denfiffimis faltibus, marinifque rupibus vitam, fufpecta. femper mente, credentes, in patria licet trepidi perftabant....

Navigantibus quoque eis de Gallia Britannicum mare cum beatæ memoriæ Wilfrido Epifcopo, canentibus Clericis & pfallentibus laudem Dei pro celeumate in choro, in medio mari validiffima tempeftas exorta eft, & venti contrarii, ficut difcipulis Jefu in mare Galilææ, erant.”
[Historiae Britannicae Saxonicae Anglo Danicae, Gale, 1691]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 02:48 PM

“Celeuma. ???e??µa
Cantus & clamor quo pariter laborantes fe excitant & animant ad ftrenuè agendum, v.g. Nautæ ad remigandum, milites ad pugnandum, Vinitores ad torcular premendum, vocatur Celeuma, Græcè ???e??µa, Hebraicè… Hedad. Vide Jerem. 25.v.30. cap.48.v.33. Cap 5E. v.14”
[Dictionarium in qvo Voces Omnes Difficiloris Significantionis, Bukentop, 1669]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 02:50 PM

Like I said, no luck at all with the Greek. And it all looks so nice in preview... harrumpff! :/

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 10:05 PM

More R.N. thread drift.
Steve: I seem to be missing something here. Has the word 'chanty' however you spell it ever been used anywhere in a historical context to describe anything other than work SONG aboard merchant ships? Nothing personal about it as far as I can see. Your persistent desire to include other things under the term is commendable, but we would like to see some evidence.

Advent & Development thread: Please note that the focus here is not on the ancient origins of work-songs, shipboard or otherwise. It is not on the origins or earliest references to singing/chanting to coordinate labour at sea. [Gibb]

Whereas, please note that the focus here is on the origins of work-songs, shipboard or otherwise. It is on the references to singing/chanting to coordinate labour at sea;… to which I will add... ancient, early or late but in some semblance of chronological order, hopefully.

Where any one citation fits homework assignment, songbook or record shelf is up to the individual consumer.

For the record Steve. I do not know what a “chantey” is until I've learned: who is using the label; on what product and in what marketplace. Change any one of the three and the definition will change accordingly. I would think you have your genre/sub-genre backwards. Chantey is filed under celeusma not the other way around, but that's just me.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 10:09 PM

Only slightly out of sequence. Still in the 17th century, still not in English:

“In hanc explicationem huius metaphoræ aptiffime quadrat obferuatio Maldonati ad illa verba Ierem.48.num.33. Nequaquam calcator vua folitum celeuma cantabit. Hebraica enim ita reddas; non calcabit celeumate, celeuma non celeuma. Eft enim celeuma cantus, quo qui fimul laborant, vt remiges, aut qui calcant in torculari, fe ad contendendas vires, cohortari folent. Celeuma igitur non erit celeuma calcantium vuas, & præ alacritate animi, cantu fe incitantium ad laborem; fed erit celeuma hoftium cohortantium fe ad cædem. Ierem.25.num.30. Celeuma quafi calcantium concinetur aduerfus omnes habitatores terra. Et ?.51.num.14. Iurauit Dominus exercituum per animam fuam, quoniam replebo te hominibus, quafi brucho, & fuper te celeuma cantabitur. Loquitur enim de Babylone hominibus innumeris, perinde ac racemis, confertiffima: de Medis autem, & Perfis, tanquam de vindemiatoribus, fe ad calcandum torcular , fanguinémque effundendum, celeumate cohortantibus.”

Index:
“Cap.25.n.15. Sume calicem vini furoris huius de manu mea, & propinabis de illo cuncetis Gentibus. Deut.3n.309
n.i15. Bibent, & turbabuntur, & infanient. Nahum 2.n.49
n.30. Celeuma quafi calcantium concinetur aduerfus omnes habitatores terræ. Deut.32.n.311
num.39. Propterea ecce ego tollam vos portans. Nahum I.n.5

Cap.f51.n.7. Calix aureus Babylon in manu Domini inebrians omnein
terram. Nahum 2.n.49.50.51
n.14. Super te celeuma cantabitur. Deut.32.n.311
[Commentarii Exegetici Litterale, Deuteronom. Cap. XXXII, 1623, p.84]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 10:12 PM

Latin-to-French:
“Enhort, ou Enhortemet Hortatio, Adhortatio, Cohortatio, Exhortatio, Suafio.
Enhortemet des mariniers ou autres ges que s'efforcet de faire quelque befonge. Celeuma, celeufmatis.
Celeufme, parolle Grecque, fignifiant le cry & acclamation des mariniers arriuant à port. Rentrans au per faluer vos perfections par ce celeufme; Virg, Chiff.”
[Le Grand Dictionaire François Latin, Augment, A-E, 1625]


“Celeusma dicitur clamor nauticus.
Celeuftes, qui remiges hortatur, quafi nauigationis moderator. Et Celeufma nauticus clamor dicitur. Budæus.
Helciarii, qui matores naus funih, trahunt canabinis aduerfus undas.”
[Officina Sive Theatrum Hisor et poeticum, 1626]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 10:14 PM

“I en efto no quiero fer creido fino lo rubrican i califican muchos fantos padres con autoridades de fus efcritos.

        sed quoniam è fcopulofis locis enaviganit oratio, & intersantas fpumeis fluctibus cantes fragilis in altum cimba proceffit, ex pandenda vela funt ventis, & quafitionum fcopulis transvadatis, & latantium more naviarum, epilogi celeuma cantandum eft.

Ya que mi oracion de los peligrofos efcollos fe ha efcapado, i por entre rocas candidas con las olas efpumofas fe ha metido en el golfo mi chalupa, quiero efplayar las ve las à los vientos, i pues è ya vadeado las peñas de las afperas queftiones, aguifa de retoçofos marineros, cantaré de mi epilogo el deffeado celeuma. Efto es de S. Geronimo à fu buen amigo S. Heliodoro.”
[Cartas Philologicas, Cascalas, 1634]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 10:08 AM

Happy to see chanty filed under a wider genre, as long as it retains its own autonomy for what we've already described. Basically I'm not interested in what modern day practitioners and commercial interests use it for. Its usage aboard merchant ships under certain conditions c1830 to c1920s is well documented and that's all I'm primarily interested in.
Having said that I'm glad someone like you is looking at a wider historical picture, and what the equivalents were in RN terms. Anyone vaguely interested in chanties will have a good idea of what they were and what they were used for.

I do advise you include explanations/translations with your posts as they mean very little to the majority of people on here.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 04:37 PM

Where are the threads for these terms and ideas? Before I created this new one I did a word search on Mudcat, Shanty wiki &c for Western Culture's historical salty antiphons and came up empty.

If I find translations/explanations/reviews in the document record, you can read them here & if anything Lucayan Archipelago or environs shows up, I'm your buttercup.

But I can't copypasta Greek. I have too much respect for Os Lusíadas &c to subject them to my fat-fingered, nonnative transliterations & “… it seems likely thats...”

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 04:39 PM

“...Veftit faxea fylva per columnas.
Hinc agger fonat, hinc Arar refultat.
Hinc fefe pedes, atque eques reflectit,
Stridentum & moderator effedorum:
Curvorum hinc chorus helciariorum,
*Refponfantibus akkekuia ripis,
Ad Chriftum levat amnicum celeuma.
Sic fic pfallite nauta, vel, viator:
Namque ifte eft locus omnibus petendus,
Omnes quo via duciy ad falutem.

*Refponfantibus alleluya ripis] Dum nautæ, inquit, Alleluya decantant, id ipfum Echo in ripa refonat. Et cantici ergo lemma expreffit, voce ufus eft propria. Et cantici ergo lemma proprie celeuma carmen nauticum. Quod proinde qui canunt nautæ, ?e????te? Longo dicuntur lib. 3…. ubi & celeufma elegantiffme defcribit, & Echo in proxima valle, ut Sidonius in ripis, celeufmati, refponfantem. Sed celeumatis Sidoniani argumentum, Alleluya & Dei laudes erant. Quo more veters Chriftiani modulos fuos & cantica in Chrifti, San?torumque honorem fæpe vertebant. Ac ne a nautis difcedamus, Paulinus de reditu Nicetæ:
        Navitæ lati solitum celeufma
        Concinent verfis modulus in hymnos,
        Et pies ducent comites in aquor
                Vocibus auras.
[Jacobi Sirmondi Opera Varia, 1696]

Note: More Martial recycled into popular music, such as it exists c.1700AD.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 04:40 PM

“PAUSARIUS, qui remigibus modos dabat, & remigandi officium quadam quafi pausâ moderabatur, olim dictus eft: Senecæ Keleuste. Nam in navi fuiffe Symphoniacos, qui celeufma remigibus canerent, & per affam vocem, i.e. ore, prolatam, illorum laborem demulcerent, ex Afconio ad divin. Cicer. docet Pignorius Comm. de Servis. In Argo fanè navi, teftatur Hyginus, Orphea per citharam celeufma nioderatum effe, quod & tetigit Valerius Flaccus Argonauticon l. m. v. 470.
        Nec verò Othryfius t?anftris impenditur Orpheus,
        Aut pontum remo fubigit, fed carmime tonfus
        Ire docet, fummo paffim ne gurgite pugnent.
Vide quoque eundem eod l. v. 184. Martialem l. 4. Epigram. 64. Rutilium Numatianum l. 1. &c. Nauticum hoc carmen, nauticus cantus Ciceroni eft, Nauticus clamor Virgilio Æn.l. 3. v. 128, Celeufma aliis: quod hodie, Italorum moribus, voce vel parvâ fiftulà nautis accini, Pignorius fuprà memoratus tradit. Aliam vocis notionem vide fuprà.”
[Lexicon Vniversale, Vol.III, Hofmanni, 1698]

"Via, via, cheerly mates!” [footnote to definition of the celeusma, Lexicon Universal, Hofmanni, 1698]


A minor bit of 'cheerly' fluff for Reidler's nautical themes in pop entertainment:

“We fare better; cheerly, cheerly boys,
The fhip runs merrily; my Captain's melancholy,
And nothing cures that in him but a Sea-fight;
I hope to meet a faile boy, and a right one.”
[Double Marriage, Act I, Sc.I, The Comedies and Tragedies of Beaumont & Fletcher, 1647, p.26]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 05:49 PM

All apologies, checked my notes again. I didn't come up completely empty. No suprise the poster:

"Subject: RE: Spanish sea shanties
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 08:11 PM

Saloma is the Spanish word for chantey. Spanish dictionaries that I have all equate shanty with shack.
Unfortunately, saloma is a rather common name as well so it is hard to find saloma=chantey in Google."

Spanish, from when Spain was Hiberia. One of Western Culture's eleventeen conjugations of the prehistoric Greek keleusma.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 01:31 PM

My head hurts!

Just one more request: Can you please use a modern s when posting pre-1800 quotations? The old seraph s has long been out of use and only makes the reading difficult.

To any other readers, anybody following any of this?

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: Reinhard
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 01:49 PM

...if he only used the long 'ſ'. Replacing it with the totally different letter 'f' does not make a citation olde and authentic but wrong, dumb and boastful.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 01:56 PM

No interest in translating equals no interest in being understood - except by those exceptionally fluent in Latin and Greek.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 03:10 PM

It hurts when I do this... Don't do that.

So, no Mudcat threads with those relevant ideas & terms you three were already familiar with?

I transcribe. I'm not going to sing them for you either. Win some-lose some.

The historical terms and ideas here, however inaccessable, are not mine. When the sources change, the citations will change. Nobody speaks every language. 100% of the early material isn't going to be in English or use 20th century type. +99% of the planet doesn't care and never did. Oh well.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 05:45 PM

But the people here obviously do care and have an interest in what you are trying to do.

Even when using English you are far from clear. 'relevant ideas and terms'. What are you trying to say, in plain words please? Gibb and others have set out what boundaries are possible and have descriptions of chanties from the early 1800s onwards up to when these songs were being used in the Gulf ports 1n the 1830s and their transference to shipboard. Influences from other genres. Up to when the term chanty was being used aboard ship. Plenty of contemporary references. What more do you want? I know Gibb is interested in what happened to the chanties once the English anthologists got hold of them and started making up bowdlerised texts, but I'm more interested in the contemporary history.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 09:02 PM

Steve: Even when using English you are far from clear. 'relevant ideas and terms'. What are you trying to say, in plain words please?.

Having said that I'm glad someone like you is looking at a wider historical picture, and what the equivalents were in RN terms. Anyone vaguely interested in chanties will have a good idea of what they were and what they were used for.

Your words. The R.N. is not shantying correct? So what do you and other shanty fanatics know about the wider historical picture for the period under discussion (<1700AD?) I got nothing when I checked, ergo this thread.

Y'all complain about Latin & Greek. Yet all the Greek and half the Latin is translated to English for you. I'm thinking this isn't about me.

Except for Reinhard. It proofs correct but posts "f" "s" "?" or "/." I gave up. No brag, just dumb and tired.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: RTim
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:54 PM

Phil is so unclear about everything......I am not really sure what he is trying to prove or disprove??
I can only assume he wants to prove that Chanties (by whatever spelling you prefer) - existed BEFORE 1830...but in doing so - he fills the pages of this "Blog" with Latin and Greek texts - which (I Think) nobody else can refute!
If he were to Simply say "Chanties" existed way before 1830.....he has to back that up with facts that everyone can understand...not make assumptions from "his" reading of long forgotten language and outdated texts.
Similarly.....It is widely accepted that Sung Shanties were NOT Performed on British Naval Ships, but that instruments were used instead! If he wishes to still call these "Chanties" - then that is an opinion that is not shared by most, if not all, the others who read these texts...

Whatever is your reason to be here reading this is personal - and Phil's views are also personal - that is obvious.....but please explain Why you are writing this - In plain English Please!!!
I also know - that whatever you say, it will NOT stop me singing these "songs" and I hope that others enjoys them as much as me....no matter why they feel the way they do....

Tim Radford (Who is more than silently pissed off at academic bullshit! Particularly when it is not necessary.) Yes - I did re-read this before posting..and still did!

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 03:56 AM

RTim: but in doing so - he fills the pages of this "Blog" with Latin and Greek texts - which (I Think) nobody else can refute!

What Greek? And if you wish to refute the Latin-to-French, German or Spanish dictionary citations here, feel free to use the Latin-to-English dictionary citations here. Or vice versa. If you must insist on assigning me a label or side, make mine "undecided" or "neutral."

We'll get to 'your' shanty terms, glossary and ideas when we get there. For now, it's about others' not yours, apparently:
Lyr Add: Sea Shanties from 'The Complaynt' (1549)
Lyr Add: Howe! Hissa! (Shanty)

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 04:12 AM

Moving on to the 18th. English-to-Latin as it happens:

“HAL.
A halfter (he which haleth and draweth a fhip or barge along the river by a rope) Helciarius, ii, m.
And halfer (a rope wherewith Barks or boats are towed or haled along ?ome channel or river) Helcium, ii, n.

ROW
A rower of a Ship, Remex, igis, m.
The mafter Rower, Paufarius, ii, m.

SHIP
He that draweth a Ship or Barge by a Rope, or that draweth Packs into a Ship, Helciarius,ii,m.
Ship Boy, Drudge or flave in a Ship, Mefonauta, æ, m.
Pole belonging to a Ship, Contus, i, m.”
[The Law-French Dictionary, 1701]

Note, see above re: chorus helciarorum, hobby horses &c.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 04:59 AM

For the record, I don't speak either language any better than island Creole:

“HALER. Haalen.
C’eft tirer, ou pefer de toute fa force fur un cable, ou fur une manœuvre, pour la faire bander ou roidir. Quand les matelots halent fur une manœuvre il faut qu’ils donnent la fecouffe au cordage tout d’un même tems, pour le bander avec plus de force; & afin de concerter le tems de cette fecouffe le Contre-maître, ou quelque autre, dit à haute voix ce mot, Hale. Tout-de-même quand il fait haler fur une bouline le Contre-maître les fait tenir prêts par ces trois paroles, favoir, Un, Deux; Trois; &c au mot de Trois ils donnent tous, d’un commun éfort, la fecouffe à la bouline. Quandles matelots qui font cette cette manœuvre, veulent railler les Oficiérs de la marine, ils prononcent eux-mêmes trois autres paroles, & au-lieu de dire, Un, Deux, Trois, ils difent, Capitaine, Lieutenant, Enfeigne. En manœuvrant les couëts, on crie auffi trois fois, Amure; &c pour l’écoute on crie trois fois, Borde; & au troifiême cri on hale furla manœuvre.

O! Hiffe, O! Hale, O! Saille! O! Ride. Dus roept-men na’t volk, om de handt aan’t werk te flaan.
Tous ces termes font criez par un matelot, dans de certains travaux, mais en différens tems, foit-qu’il faille hiffer quelque chofe, ou la haler, ou la poufler, ou rider. Ce cri fe fait pour faire réünir toutes, les forces des travailleurs, afin d’agir de concert; car lors-que celui qui donne la voix prononce un O! avec une voix lente, chacun fe prépare pour l’éfort qu’il faudra faire, & en achevant le mot, comme par éxemple, Hiffe, tous travaillent à la fois.

SAILLE. Set aan.
C’eft un mot en ufage parmi les matelots, qui eft prononcé par plufieurs enfemble, en élevant ou pouffant quelque fardeau.

UN, DEUX, TROIS. Een, Twee, Drie.
Celui qui donne la voix pour faire haler la bouline crie à haute voix, Un, Deux , Trois, & au dernier mot les travailleurs font leur éfort. Voiez, Haler, & Voix.

VOIX. A la Voix. Soo digt-by dat men malkanderen kan hoorem ?preeken, dai men bequaamelijk met malkanderen kan ?preeken.
C’e?t être à la portée de la voix.

A LA VOIX. Luiftert na commando.
Cela fe dit encore comme un commandement que l’on fait aux gens de l’équipage, pour les faire travailler à-la-fois, lors-qu’on donne la voix.

DONNER la Voix. Het woordt fpreeken.
Cela fe dit d’un homme qui avertit par un cri articulé, afin-que les gens ocupez à ce travail faffent leurs éforts tous à-la-fois. Voiez, Ho, Hiffe, &c.”
[Dictionnaire de Marine, Brunel, 1702]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 05:17 AM

The methodology isn't worthy of the word:
1. I don't know shanties. Keleusma I know.
2. Search keyword: keleusma.
3. Review returns for definitive keywords.
4. Rinse, repeat. I've got about one hundred at present.
5. Sort & post returns by date. Job done.

My only 'argument' or 'position,' if you insist, is: a given maritime work song literary reference appeared in year [X.] If your difficulty is with anything else, it's not about me.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 05:28 AM

Testing, testing 1-2-3: Okay Reinhard, all the Hebrew, Greek and long form French previews just fine. Let's see how it posts:

"???? D'où vient ???? Hedad, bruit, clameur de ceux qui pillent une une ville, ou la campagne: ou qui foulent les rai?ins dans le pre??oir: où l'un excite l'autre au travail avec joye & allégre??e: comme les Grecs parlent de leur ?e?e?sµa, cri de marine: & les Latins de leur Eleleu, cri de guerre, Jer. 5 1. 14. E?aie 16.9, 1 I. Jer.25.3o & 48.33. Ezech.7.7 C'e?t le cri de ceux qui foulent aupre??oir (dit Rabbi David) par lequel ils s'exhortent mutuellement. Saint Jerôme l'explique tantôt par la voix, c'e?t à dire, par le cridont nous venons de parler; tantôt par le celeu?ma, qui veut dire le cri des pilotes. Lentos tingitis ad celeu?ina remos. Martialis. Vous ne faites que mouiller foiblement vos rames à la voix des Pilotes Il y en a qui rapportent ce mot Hébreu à la racine Jadah; qui veut dire jetter, comme qui diroit que l'on jette une voix gaye & libre, & peut-être au??i mêlée de brocards, & de railleries. Menoch de Republ Hebr. l.7. c.8. voyez en davantage dans ce même Auteur.”
[Dictionaire de la Langue Sainte, Leigh, 1703, pp.148-149]

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 05:31 AM

Test fail. If I can ever fix that, y'all might actually have Greek text to complain about.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 05:38 AM

Phil, I have followed this and similar threads with increasing bafflement. I simply cannot fathom just what it is you are trying to say, whether it's about shanties or maritime work songs in general.

It's great that you are researching maritime work song, and looking at other periods of time and other cultures than simply the 19th century Anglo-American shanty tradition. However you appear to be using Mudcat mainly as a dump for your raw data, which is untranslated and often presented without comment. When you do comment, it is often written in such an oblique style that it is unclear what your point is.

May I respectfully suggest that you complete your research and then present us with your findings? We might then be able to have an interesting and fruitful discussion, which none of the current threads seem to be able to provide.

Looking back, I see that Steve Gardham requested something similar as long ago as July 2020.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Iains
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 08:07 AM

http://www.sagaconference.org/SC03/SC03_Perkins.pdf

Make of it what you will!

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 10:22 AM

Interesting, Iain.
His theories are plausible enough as they are applied to rowing chants which are pretty universal anyway. His knowledge of chanties however, seems a little thin. His one example he gives is 'The Mermaid' which might have been used as a chanty at some point but was certainly not from the main corpus and is more of a forebitter, with broadside origins.

He seems to have missed a trick presented to us by Gibb, in that a few early rowing chants/songs of the Georgia islands can be directly related to some of the earliest chanties (Sally Brown & Grog time o' day).

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 02:18 PM

Howard: However you appear to be using Mudcat mainly as a dump for your raw data, which is untranslated and often presented without comment. When you do comment, it is often written in such an oblique style that it is unclear what your point is.

Me: My only 'argument' or 'position,' if you insist, is: a given maritime work song literary reference appeared in year [X.] If your difficulty is with anything else, it's not about me.

We're having a belligerent agreement. I accept "raw data," in a spectrum of languages, is of no intrinsic value to most readers. No offence taken. Obviously y'all cannot say the same. Those months-of-the-year song list threads must really grind your teeth!

To repeat: Mark me down as 'undecided' & 'no comment' on findings now. This way your needs to refute findings I've not found in Greek text I've not posted will fall back on you where they clearly belong.

I'd be confused too, if I were you.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 03:29 PM

Clarity: What are these comments about the data (who, what, where, when, why) y'all are having problems understanding? If it's the data, maybe it can be improved. If it's my opinion of your opinion of Greek text I've never posted, lucidity is right off the menu.

Translations: I'm probably less incapable of translation than y'all but obviously more motivated. My rough count:

A little over half my data posts here are in English. The remainder are split between Dutch, French, German, Classic & Vulgar Latin, Portuguese and Spanish. Roughly half this remainder are translations themselves but not always to English.

IMNSHO: Insisting on others providing English translations of Latin-to-French, German or Spanish dictionaries is a purely emotional need. It's not really about the data.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 03:33 PM

“CELEUSMA, cri de plu?ieurs per?onnes, chant de réjouï??ance que font les Mariniers quand ils prennent port,ou qu'ils aprochent de la Terre. Ilen e?t parlé en trois endroits de la Prophetie de Jeremie, Rugiens rugiet ?uper decorem ?uum: Celeu?ma qua?i calcantium concinetur, adversùs omnes habitatores terra, fai?ant allu?ion aux chan?ons de ceux qui foulent les rai?ins, ch.25.v. 3o. Dans le ch.48.v.33. il dit qu'il a ôté toute la joïe du Carmel, qu'il a fait répandre le vin des pre??oirs, & que celui qui foule les rai?ins, ne chantera plus ces cantiques acoûtumez. Nequaquam calcator uva folitum Celeufma tantabit.”
[Le Grand Dictionaire de la Bible, Vol.I, Certe, 1703]

Note: Bit of a rehash of Calvin, Old Testament, hedad &c. See previous.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: RTim
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 04:06 PM

He can't stop!!....now rehashing french text (I am NOT going to waste time checking any earlier posts!!)...all without translation. This last post adds NOTHING. I am not going to look at anymore of this...

Tim Radford.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 05:11 PM

Which bit of that last French/Latin copy refers to song accompanying task? I can follow most of the French. Arriving in port or approaching land. it appears to refer to rejoicing rather than accompanying any work. Perhaps the Latin bits refer to work.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 05:23 PM

RTim: Chill! FYI I've provided you with the accepted period English expert translations of Calvin. How you find what you find when you can't (French) and won't (English) read the "raw data" is not about me or this thread.

If you don't object to "raw data" songbook index threads with untranslated song titles, this thread should not be a problem for you.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 05:43 PM

Steve: That would be my rough take on it as well. Have you read the Calvin stuff? It's Hebrew-Greek-French etymology/crossovers in the Old Testament vinter's shouts; the psalms hedads and the mariner's celeusma.

We've had a similar exchange previously in the Howe Hissa! thread, you & I. There are other citations to come. "It seems likely that..." the Protestant and Catholic churches were to the celeusma what minstrelsy & pop was to become to the shanty. And just as hard to tell which one you might be looking at from a distance.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 05:53 PM

Steve: Last one got clipped. You are now my French expert, congrats. Is there any "offical" shanty or Mudcat glossary for what's going on in Dictionnaire de Marine?

Those should tie in to an Advent & Develpment post sometime fairly soon, if it didn't already get lost in the shuffle.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 06:01 PM

See my remarks above, 10 March 2020, 10:43 a.m.

And th-th-th-th-that's all, folks!

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 06:12 PM

Just to be clear, I'm misusing "shanty" glossary. What are the c.1700AD translations/keywords for the same English merchant marine practices (I'm assuming) that I can add to the current search routines?

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 07:23 PM

Lighter 2020: Speaking strictly for myself. The current subject is not shanties and is not to be lumped in with shanties. Do we not agree? I think we do.

From my OP:
"A sea shanty, chantey, or chanty is a genre of traditional folk song that was once commonly sung as a work song to accompany rhythmical labor aboard large merchant sailing vessels. They were found mostly on British and other European ships, and some had roots in lore and legend. The term shanty most accurately refers to a specific style of work song belonging to this historical repertoire. However, in recent, popular usage, the scope of its definition is sometimes expanded to admit a wider range of repertoire and characteristics, or to refer to a "maritime work song" in general." [wiki]

Hence the thread title. The lore and legend genre and mariner's general work song glossary c.400BC-1700AD used the other terms and definitions cited here. They were not to be found on Mudcat, until now. What is it you object to, or wish to refute <1703AD?

If the 1800s sources lump them all together, you'll read it here. If not, no worries eh?

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 12:41 AM

Took me a minute to find it. Stepping back into the 17th century just a bit:

“...And hence the Land is filled with those loud Celeusmata's*, which summons all hands to pull down the Church, and lay it even with the ground; and pitty it is, but that Church which is so great a Canibal, were so dealt with.”
[The Case of Persecution, Charg'd on the Church of England, consider'd and discharg'd, in order to her justification, and a desired union of Protestant dissenters, Long, 1689]
*Celeusmata is the plural of celeusma. Celeusmata's I'm not sure.

Nothing to do with the maritime or work song per se but one usage that came to straight to mind when the 'banning' of lyrics & chanting came up in the R.N. thread.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 04:28 AM

To be honest, it's not the Dutch, French, German, Classic & Vulgar Latin, Portuguese, Spanish, Hebrew or Greek I'm struggling with; it's Phil's English that I find quite baffling.

Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 02:39 PM

'They were found mostly on British and other European ships'<<<<<

I think Gibb would have something to say about that. I think a more accurate statement would be they were published mostly in British anthologies. Evidence would suggest that at least half the references are of American origin and that's certainly where they originated, and indeed onshore. the first use of the word 'chantyman' as a worksong leader was for a stevedore in the Gulf ports.

Wiki seriously needs an update!