BS: Let's talk about the US election

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 07:50 AM

btw, ICE agents are to be assisted by the Army according to Trump which is how the Gestapo operated. Trump's plans will be stymied because there is no detailed plan unless Project 2025 holds the details. Just like only a bit of his Wall got built mass deportation may just be for photo op.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 08:29 AM

A :'( is a crying emoji. ;-) is a wink.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 09:30 AM

It's called putting lipstick on a pig, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 09:35 AM

...and, Helen, Alex says she's gonna drive the thing with a bag on her head.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 09:39 AM

As someone (I can guess who) unilaterally decided to ‘disappear’ my post from this morning, I will repeat it, and I’ll keep repeating it until the offender gets the message and bloody well leaves it alone…

Seen this morning on Farcebook, a post along the lines of… ”Maybe Canada should begin absorbing the US’s Blue states, then they will have health-care. The Red states obviously don’t want it.” ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 10:13 AM

Heed the warning of The Handmaid's Tale: Pay by cash whenever possible, and complain loudly if you can't. Once all money is in bank accounts, cash can be eliminated as a legal medium of exchange, and you're then only one stroke of the legislative pen away from becoming at best a second-class citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 10:59 AM

I bet he does sod all - like last time. He'll be too busy filling his pockets with goodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:06 AM

I bet he's nicking the lead off the White House roof if you look outside.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:12 AM

Go Americans!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:14 AM

That's my feeling to, Al. Trouble is all the Trump toadies, like Musk, have wormed their way into his good books for their own agenda. We don't know what that aganda is but you can be sure it will not be philanthropic! At least it will, hopefully, be their last chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:58 AM

It's not Trump that concerns me, he'll be too busy monitoring cable news to see what they're saying about him and playing golf, it's the neo-facists, White Nationalists and uber capitalist s who are going to be running wild in the West Wing and the new AG who will be dismantling our justice system along with various other extremists. Competency is not required, all he looks for is loyalty and deep pockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 05:07 PM

> loyalty and deep pockets

There's a long diatribe there, basically lifted straight from Plato's Republic, starting with democracy being the second-worst method of governing a country, and the search for a Strong Man. Sadly, mankind seems to need to relearn this lesson, the hard way, twice a century or so.

To a lesser extent, the same is true for companies. Boeing is being driven to breaking point by the bean counters in the board room who value share price maintenance over engineering excellence, and indulge in empty-calorie tactics like share buy-back; Intel is discovering that "lobbying dollars offer a better return than engineering dollars" (to quote RISKS-34.48) only gets you so far before you start having to lay off workers. And once the talent's gone, it's *gone*; witness the state of Twitter after Agent X sacked it.*

Spread this across the entire country; add in trade tariffs being passed on to the consumer (Brexit is costing the UK 4--5% a year in GDP), the enormous cost of deporting anybody considered "foreign", and the flight of talent to less extreme countries (which has already started). The 2008 crash will seem like a picnic.

* For some months after the sack, all The Register could get out of Twitter's press e-mail address was a poop-emoji autoreply. I've no idea whether setting that up was the last press officer's last act before turning out the lights, but it was karmically correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 05:50 PM

It used to be illegal to do those stock buy-backs and then money went back into the company. Now it goes to stockholders. That's a huge part of the problem (along with CEO compensation.)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 05:49 AM

2024 HOTTEST YEAR EVER

I am surprised no one has whispered what this means for global WARMING


Imagine if Al Gore was allowed to have all the votes counted and became President.

We have lost over 20 years of climate reconciliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 07:38 AM

How could a convicted felon with the speaking skills of a drunk uncle beat a highly educated prosecutor?

The Price of Eggs party beat the woke celebrity party in the game of labels. I don't blame women, Latinos, or others for voting for Trump.

The Democrats could have claimed the high ground of morality, ethics, fairness, and patriotism but they ignored the memory of the high cost of eggs and the shrunken sizes of everything in the grocery store. Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and Oprah didn't outweigh Joe Rogan and the historic price of eggs.

Of course, there are many other reasons, like having no primary and an indignant, recalcitrant elderly Biden unable to see the writing on the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 08:23 AM

Nice synopsis at 07:38 AM, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 09:16 AM

Donuel, by using ones privilege to place oneself above the law?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 09:30 AM

I never heard the Democrats drive home the fact that THEY didn't cause inflation and that the lower price of bread under T**** was due to a better economy under Obama.
Prices rose during COVID and guess who was minding the store then!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 10:09 AM

Privilege (n): private law.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 10:16 AM

Alexander Hamilton was the first to advocate for a central bank in the United States, and his ideas laid the foundation for the Federal Reserve.      
Guess who wants to put the independent Federal Reserve under Trump's control?
Elon Musk ! He says an independent Fed Reserve is unconstitutional.

I'm sure Trump wouldn't mind being able to rob the bank blind.
He could increase the deficit by 9 trillion dollars with tax cuts and his wish list. The Fed couldn't say boo. That's not to say that Trump will. Owning the central bank is still a delicious cherry on top of extreme power. I'm afraid Trump wants to assassinate Hamilton all over again.


PS Have you seen the friendly face of the deportation Czar Tom Homan?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 10:53 AM

For all the reasons people have mentioned here it should be easy to see that once a strongman or King takes control...
getting rid of that system is like trying to put out a blow torch with a squirt gun. Usually the blowtorch has to run out of fuel.

It will take heros of conscience.
be they red or blue.
to apply the brakes
to this ship of State.

It reminds me that if it took a hundred years of climate destruction then it can take thousands of years if not more to recover. Of course a runaway event can turn into millions of years.
Likewise just a few years of a dictator's control can take a nation 40 years to recover. If ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 04:52 PM

Trump has already asked the Senate to give up their advise and consent powers for new appointments. Trump wants recess appointments to be the rule that bypasses Senate permission so he can appoint anyone without any possible hearings or criticism.

The Donald also wants new rules to ensure there will be NO MORE FILIBUSTER.

Does anyone else think that deporting 10 million workers will make America go hungry without people to pick the crops? Supply and demand would make a more expensive vegetable. Oh well, Americans could stand a little weight loss.

There is nothing free market about tariffs, but it is too complicated for me to see any advantage for citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 05:05 PM

My only hope now is that he'll fuck things up so badly that it will do in the GOP for a generation or so. It will cause a lot of suffering but may be the only way we reclaim what's left of our democracy. Pretty grim.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Helen
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 05:30 PM

I've been wondering whether the power-behind-the-throne people, e.g. Project 2025 people, hardline [so-called] Christians, billionaire old white men, etc are very happy that Trump has all of the legal woes because they can hold him to ransom to get what they want. It might explain why he was behaving during the campaign in a relatively civilised manner, compared to his previous behaviour. Susan Wiles could be re-named as the Chief Wrangler.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 05:46 PM

Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) offered his thoughts on Democrats’ losses in this year’s elections in a Sunday thread on the social platform X.

“We are out of touch with the crisis of meaning/purpose fueling MAGA,” Murphy said in the thread. “We refuse to pick big fights. Our tent is too small.”


The Connecticut Senator noted multiple issues he thinks the American left is struggling with when it comes to reaching voters, including having “never fully grappled with the wreckage of fifty years of neoliberalism” and moving “past the way people are feeling (ALONE, impotent, overwhelmed) and straight to uninspiring solutions.”

“We don’t listen enough; we tell people what’s good for them,” Murphy said.

“And when progressives like [Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.)] aggressively go after the elites that hold people down, they are shunned as dangerous populists. Why? Maybe because true economic populism is bad for our high-income base,” he added.

In the wake of the 2024 elections, Democrats from different parts of the party have gone after each other for what they think sunk their chances at the polls, as they lost the Senate, the presidency and possibly the House. Those further to the left have said Democrats didn’t go far enough in their direction to excite the party’s base, while centrists have said the party went too far left and frightened moderate voters.

“Real economic populism should be our tentpole,” Murphy said on X. “But here’s the thing – then you need to let people into the tent who aren’t 100% on board with us on every social and cultural issue, or issues like guns or climate.”

But...
WHEN RUNNING FOR A SEAT IN CONGRESS COSTS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS...
you have to cater to the million or billionaires. Sorry workers.

PS Trump wants Kash Patel as the new director of the CIA.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 05:59 PM

Everything is in motion right now, speculating, suggestions to Trump, the awful people he will put in his cabinet.

Meanwhile some of the pundits have pointed out that there are many people who are somewhat case-hardened to his crap because they live in states with all of the nonsense is already going on, like Texas. Hmmm.

I think trying to read anything into what is going on right now is worse than tea leaves. We're going to have to see what happens.

There was a suggestion this morning that Biden can do one thing to mess up Trump's desire to see the federal death penalty put to use - Trump went on a binge of executions in the last six months of his first term. Biden can commute 44 sentences and put them on life sentences and can tell the Terre Haute folks to dismantle the execution chamber now. That would be a good thing. He has already moved most federal cases to non-death-penalty tracks.

Never mind the million people who died during COVID in the US; many of them would have been spared if he'd had half a brain and let the CDC do their job.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 06:45 PM

What is not tea leaves is that the ACLU stands between the worst promises of Donald Trump, and our basic human freedoms and pursuit of happiness. The ACLU needs our monetary support more than billionaires need a tax cut.

Yes, many of the crazy appointees are known to not last long in Trump's employ. Yes, the devil is in the details of the worst plans and those details are not known to many people. Will summary execution of deported immigrants who sneak back in really be carried out as promised? If it happens who will report it?
It's imprudent to not ask questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 07:38 PM

You're right about the ACLU. I've supported them for years with yearly donations, and last week I changed over to monthly donations.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Nov 24 - 07:14 AM

Biden can commute 44 sentences and put them on life sentences and can tell the Terre Haute folks to dismantle the execution chamber now. That would be a good thing. He has already moved most federal cases to non-death-penalty tracks.

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Nov 24 - 10:30 AM

If you have learned much about narcissists you probably know they have overwhelming urges to 'get even' by ongoing retribution. Sometimes they go overboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: keberoxu
Date: 12 Nov 24 - 01:26 PM

Another congressional race has been decided, in Arizona.
In a tight race, Democrat Ruben Gallego defeated
the notorious Kari Lake (Republican).

It will take a while to sort out Maine, though.
Today Maine starts to look at second-ranked candidate choices on the ballots.
The race between the Democrat and Republican candidates is so tight
that neither one had a 50% majority after counting
the first-choice voting.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Nov 24 - 06:43 PM

There is a second reason why Democrats lost. It is because the left campus fringe became Anti-free speech with their cancel disinvitation culture, safe space, trigger warning, microaggression, and Antifa riots by fascist means.
Yep the right might ban books and history but their cult leader can say anything he wants. The right became the free speech party. The Dems sounded like snowflakes.
The right might not like totalitarianism as much as they thought but remember they like their own speech, they just don't like your speech.

I had a constant critic that sometimes had a well reasoned argument but often devolved to simple name calling. On numerous occasions, I notified moderators to NOT BAN HIS FREE SPEECH. Alas it did not come to pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 01:06 AM

Interesting view of the US election by the Guardian's chief leader writer, Randeep Ramesh. Quotes:

While the methods are shared, the goals diverge. The US became the world’s top oil and gas producer in the last decade. Biden sought to cultivate a green economy, while Trump promoted fossil fuels so aggressively that it bordered on self-parody.

**

In 2022, the poorest 20% of Americans spent nearly a third of their income on food, while the wealthiest fifth spent just 8%. Biden avoided emergency price controls, unlike Richard Nixon who implemented them in 1971 – and won a landslide reelection the following year.

**

Whether Trump can mobilise popular discontent over social and economic inequalities without alienating the oligarchs who support him remains an open question… Trump’s aim isn’t to lift all boats, but rather to lift enough to convince voters to tolerate the corruption, consumer scams and environmental degradation that enrich a plutocratic class. This strategy, boosted by a pliant mediasphere, enables him to present a party of private power as the voice of the ordinary voter.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 02:24 AM

The paragraph in that article prior to your last quote is worth repeating…

”The president-elect has abandoned the neoliberal tradition of keeping markets shielded from direct political influence, openly using his power to favour allies and enrich elites. While centrist Democrats support corporate interests by blocking progressive reforms, Trump aligns directly with billionaires, promoting a culture where justice serves the wealthy, prejudice is trivialised and power diminishes equality. This trickle-down bigotry will ultimately create a system where servility to power and social division become normalised, eroding fairness for everyone.”

How ordinary Americans could be so deluded by The Trump Gang into voting directly against their own best interests is totally beyond my comprehension.

It’s 1930s Germany, all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 06:16 AM

all of which is true BWM. However our own record in voting for loonies is not exactly blameless. There was Thatcher who finished off 28% of manufacturing in one year. Then there was Cameron who walked out because the Brexit vote upset him. And I'm not over the moon with Keir Starmer.
I think the trouble resides in the fact that we have a media who misinform us. Trump's victory and Starmers have in common the fact that the overwhelming nature of thevictories seemed to creep up on them by surprise.
This to me, argues that they don't really know whats going at ground level.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 08:06 AM

Al, this thread is about the US Election. If you want to discuss UK political issues, I think it would probably be better from the Mods’ POV to do it on the ‘Brexit and UK Politics’ thread.’

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 10:48 AM

Stay that hand, BWM: the UK's woes (eg the self-harm of Brexit causing a provable 4% hit to the economy) ahould be an Awful Warning for the US. Whether they'll learn the lesson in time is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 11:20 AM

Good point, MaJoC, but I’ve given my answer to Big Al’s above post in the ‘Brexit & UK Politics’ thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 12:57 PM

We understand there has been lunacy on both sides of the pond, but we don't need to go into depth here. It also isn't a thread for philosophy.

Appointments are landing like pasta on the wall, Trump seems to be putting every stupid idea out there to see what sticks. Meanwhile the GOP senators seem to have totally ignored Trump's wishes and have elected John Thune as their majority leader, someone who didn't endorse Trump in this election. Interesting. (It was a secret vote.) The talking head on MSNBC right now is talking about him - said "he's always been a decent guy." That's more than was ever said about McConnell.

Biden hosted Trump at the White House - I saw photos and a brief glimpse of them seated to talk - keeping Trump in line is going to be difficult (he has already been giving directives to the parties - he didn't get what he wanted on Majority Leader.) The thing about his wanting to do everything his way, he told the senate he wants them to recess so he can make recess appointments for all of his cabinet folks - Thune won't do it. His various demands are intended to reduce the power of the House and Senate - so they probably won't go along.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 07:08 PM

Trump wants the DOJ to be his personal KGB police to round up his critics, but Matt Gaetz does not have that kind of discipline, and he is unlikely to be ratified.

How is a Fox News host able to run the entire DOD?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 11:01 AM

My thought. Tiny protest. Only going to restaurants run by and/or owned by immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Neil D
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 11:47 AM

Deporting undocumented workers (by the way, anyone who turns the word illegal into a proper noun is inherently racist) in the numbers Trump claims would cost us billions and tank the economy. Most Americans have no idea how much our economy relies on these workers. Anthony Bordain said they were the best kept secret of high cuisine and agriculture and manufacturing are also reliant. I wrote something during the first Trump administration and with the spectre of an even more draconian border policy looming in our near future, I'd like to repeat it.
A Christian monk named Thomas Merton said " Into this world, this demented inn
in which there is absolutely no room for him at all,
Christ comes uninvited.

But because he cannot be at home in it,
because he is out of place in it,
and yet he must be in it,
His place is with the others for whom
there is no room.

His place is with those who do not belong,
who are rejected by power, because
they are regarded as weak,
those who are discredited,
who are denied status of persons,
who are tortured, bombed and exterminated.

With those for whom there is no room,
Christ is present in this world.

Even though he wrote this 60 years ago he must have been prescient for I feel like he was describing the situation today at our southern border, where desparate people have fled a dystopia mostly of our making (if you would like a list of US military interventions in Central America going all the way back to the Monroe Doctrine it would require another thread. Interventions that had nothing to do with exporting democracy, as if we had any to spare). People who against all odds have made it hundreds of miles to that Golden door, only to have it slammed in their face by an orange -tinted imbecile who whines "There's no more room. We're all filled up." And I would pray that Brother Melton was right, that Christ is indeed present with those people for whom there is no room. I hope he can prepare them a better place in the next world for I fear they will have no compassion, no comfort, no justice in this one. Most Americans claim to be good Christians, including the ones who cheer on the government forces that tear children from their mothers' arms and throw them in cages to sleep on cold stone floors with very little hygene and medical treatment as they sicken and even die in custody. When the Bible says suffer the little children, that does not mean to make the children suffer.
Have these so-called Christians even read their Bibles. How did they miss this passage in Matthew 25: For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
Did they not read that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.
So when you pass tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of the poor, the sick, the elderly, children, then you have not only forsaken those people, you have also betrayed your God. Would you truly be Christlike? Then drive the moneylenders from the temples of our democracy.
For there have always been two kinds of Christians. In the third century a churchman named Pelegias taught that the church was obligated to care for those downtrodden in our society. He was excommunicated by the Pope. In the 15th century a teenage girl was inspired by God to lead her nations army against a foreign invader. Christian priests burned her alive. In the 16th century Protestants were invited to Paris for a council that would enumerate their rights in a Catholic State. Instead they were attacked in the night by Catholic knights and slaughtered in the tens of thousands, all on St Bartholomew's Day. In my own time an ordained clergyman chose as his ministry nurturing children to cherish themselves and each other. Many of you spent hours of childhood in his neighborhood. At his funeral Christian people showed up with signs saying Queers Will Burn and God Hates Faggots. When Fred Rogers' son went out to them and asked why they were protesting at his father's funeral he was told that since his father did not teach the children to despise homosexuals he was as bad as one himself. Imagine that. Christians condemning a man for not teaching kids to hate.
So if you're a Christian are you like Pelegias or the Pope. Like Jeanne d'Arc or the priests who burned her. Like the French Huguenots or the murderous Catholic knights. Like Mr. Rogers or the Westboro Baptists.
So when You tell me you are a Christian my question to you, the question you must ask yourself is what kind of Christian are you? The kind that loves or the kind that hates.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Helen
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 12:25 PM

Well said, Neil D!