Government---the bigger the better !!!!

Subject: RE: Government---the bigger the better !!!!
From: Troll
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 08:54 PM

Little Hawk, thanks for the posting. You and I may never agree but at least we keep it civil. All too often conservatives are linked to big business and their way of doing things but, as Sportin' Life says,"It ain't necessarily so." We want many of the same things the "Liberals" want. What we differ on is the way of achieving these goals. This said. Consider the following; men women and children risk their lives almost daily to leave Cuba and Sweden has the largest suicide rate in the industrial world. It is obvious that universal free health care and "Womb to Tomb" state welfare leaves SOMETHING to be desired. That something might be the freedom to do what you want with your life. I don't know. Does anyone? Frank, if you are a working man then it has to anger you to see people who don't work and don't want to living off yours and my paycheck. Welfare was never meant to be a permanent thing. It was designed to help those who were down temporarily-just like you were- until they could get back on their feet. It galls my soul to see families who have been on government assistance for three and four generations. I want to scream when I hear of people with five or six ID's and addresses and collection money on all of them. And the welfare cheats milk the system for millions of dollars each year as do those who practice medicare and medical insurance fraud. I know people personally who have opted NOT to buy medical insurance so that they can have a bigger bass boat or a newer truck. They go to the E.R. and get free care. I don't feel that I should have to support them when they have made a clear choice. As for the bums, to me these are the people who expect the government to take care of them. I know people who are called bums by society. Many of them are Viet Nam vets who never made it all the way back. They live on a lousy little pension and spend most of their time on the street. I help them when I can because I could have wound up there too. But I will not give one thin dime to the lazy S.O.B. who is able-bodied and able to work and instead lives off his girl-friend and her adc checks. As for the assertion that "bums" gave us some of our finest folk songs, I suppose that you are talking about Woody Guthrie, who did indeed spend a lot of time bumming around and writing. He also worked for the Federal Government (promoting the Grand Coulee Dam) and was in the merchant marine in WWII. He wrote some great songs but neglected his family shamefully much of the time. As for others, I don't really know of any except for some of the old blues players and they generally worked dances and parties. I am not closed minded. I can be swayed. But it takes a real good argument with documentation, not emotionalism.(even tho I use it myself on ocassion)
And Greg, I never said it was the poor who were getting my goat. It's the people who abuse the system and feel that it is their "right" to be supported. Anyone who thinks that way is robbing me and mine and I OBJECT!

troll

Subject: RE: Government---the bigger the better !!!!
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:56 PM

Troll -
Thanks for reminding me that all Republicans don't come from the upper and upper-mid classes. There are always those with the good old "Protestant ethic" who's belief in "Christian charity" only extends to people they know personally. The rest gets what they deserve, so they can go to hell the whole lazy lot of them. From reading your past posts, troll, I wouldn't have lumped you in with them. Of course I don't believe in lumping people together so that I can dismiss what they say, anyway. Which is just another way in which we differ.

You see, that's what makes me mad. It seems that I've been getting written off for as long as I can remember. When I was a kid, it was because we really couldn't afford to move out of the city and I didn't really match fashion with the kids in the 'burb where we ended up. My first job was cleaning toilets after school at the Catholic grade school I was attending. That was in the 7th grade and I have never been without a job of some kind since.

I'm not going to bore you with my life story. You'll have to buy the book someday for that. But when fifteen years as a professional musician bottomed out, with a job in the mailroom, a wife and son, I realized no one was going to pay much attention unless I got a degree. Luckily, I still had the state scholarship I'd given up all those years before, and with government help I got into a nice cushy job as a corporate trainer. Until I got laid off. Back on the dole – for two months. Funny, though, they'd only let me draw money that was contributed during the time I was employed and then based on the level of wages I had drawn.

Yeah, troll I have a mortgage, and three kids, and credit card debt up the ass (some run up while I went back to school, but most my own fault – I never was very good at saying no to my kids). My wife has a part time job at a Hospital, but mostly stays home with the kids, because we believe that's what kids need.

Anyway – what's my point? I don't need you or anyone else telling me that I haven't earned the right to my opinion. And my opinion is that we're better off trying to help people than writing them off. And I don't resent the taxes I pay to build a country that I can be proud of. Yes, I work for my money but that doesn't mean I am going to clutch every nickel, while I bolt the doors against lay-abouts and welfare cheats.

When I was getting my teaching degree, I saw what kind of schools the poor kids on the west side of Chicago get compared to the suburbs. I saw good kids and bad kids at both kinds of school. And I saw clearly that we would get a lot more value out of the few additional dollars thrown to the city schools than out of the tax breaks being promised to people who's kids already drive better cars than their teachers. And if Mom or Dad could be home with the kids when they get out of school, rather than scraping the rent out of some fast food job that they spend an hour on public transportation to get to (big business abandoned the west side of Chicago decades ago; and now public transportation is being cut back there, too), I would consider any public support that made that happen money well spent, too.

Troll, you insist on pointing the finger at those around and below you rather than at those on the hill. Do you imagine that you're going to be up there with them someday? Not if they have their way. Unfortunately, there are too many "running dog" Republicans in this country who will never let anyone rise "above their station" and Troll, I'm not lumping you with them. But I can't help remembering a quote from Marat/Sade: "All your revolution amounts to is a prison riot, to be put down by corrupted fellow prisoners".

Troll, you are entitled to your opinion. But don't jump to "confusions" and make judgments about people you really don't know.

One last thing, for all you wanna-be Republicans, remember what Bill said at the convention (quoting Harry S Truman, I believe) "If you want to live like a Republican, you have to vote Democrat".

Subject: RE: Government---the bigger the better !!!!
From: Frankham
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:04 PM

Troll,

I'm not angry. I don't feel exploited. Welfare has helped a great many more people than it hurt. There have been abuses. These people need to be gone after. But the record shows that many have been helped despite propaganda to the contrary by those who oppose the system.

Many African-American musicians have not been able to carve out much of a living on their skills. Many have been on welfare. It's too easy to make a judgement on who abuses the system and doesn't. The facts are only good when we evalutate them on a case by case basis. It's too easy to condemn women who are single mothers on the poverty level. But to ignore them and their plight and especially their offspring is to mount up a cost much greater than the measly amount that government offers for welfare. Your tax dollars will go to make more prisons to house the less fortunate and to pay for more policeman to handle the crime rate that soars when troubled people are ignored. Your freedom is already curtailed when you can't walk down certain streets of American cities without fear of crime. This is already a huge price to pay.

Woody's relationship to his family might be considered shameful in some eyes, particularly by those whose judgements stand on some kind of personal moral rigidity without thier evaluating his circumstances. Woody had a crippling disease that he knew about and tried to do what he could. He also realized the plight that some folks have when they don't have a break in society and he sang about that. He was fortunate to have developed a successful career although he never saw much income from it in his lifetime.

The mounting costs created by the less fortunate in our society will eat away at everyone's paycheck unless a more charitable attitude accompanies the American public view. We are all winners when the less fortunate has a chance. I see Bush turning his back on this.

Frank

Subject: RE: Government---the bigger the better !!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 02:36 PM

Hallelujah I'm a Bum

Which side are you on?

They've got the money, but we've got the songs...

The amazing thing is how the people with the real money seem to be able to turn the anger of the people with not that much money against the people with next to no money, and get clean free away.

Yes, there are people cheating on welfare - and there are two types. There are a few well-organised crooks running a business doing it, the same kind of crooks who run other legal businesses robbing their fellow citizens blind. Illegal or legal, these are the kind of crooks who don't like to pay taxes, and have ways of avoiding doing so.

And there are other people struggling to get by on welfare or benefits of one sort or another who do bend the rules sometimes, rules which are often cruel and inflexible, and full of poverty traps. (I'm talking here for example about someone who gets a chance of a days work, and doesn't declare it - of course the nice middleclass person who gives him the work and pays cash in hand to save on the tax doesn't get slagged off as a tax cheat. He probably mouths off about welfare cheats.)

"The rich don't get hurt by high tax rates.... the middle class does. The rich can hide their money, they can afford huge numbers of accountants and lawyers to protect their assets. Failing all else, they can afford to purchase whatever government functionaries they need, to escape burdensome regulation."

So people should just give in to the big thieves? You should accept that nothing can be done to get the bastards, and just roll over and vote the way they want you to, the way that makes it even easier for them to avoid paying their share - and take your anger and embarrassment out on the poor, because you're too frightened to take on the real enemy.

Once again: Which side are you on?

Subject: RE: Government---the bigger the better !!!!
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 02:51 PM

As long as welfare takes 1% of the budget, and the military takes 20% to defend us from enemies we wouldnt have if we stayed out of other peoples business, I will not complain about "Welfare cheats". Anyone care to discuss the Savings & Loan thing? How much did that cost us? Has anyone noticed that all the Bushes are in on the race except Neil?
I heard something that tickled me today, a good friend of mine, a shell back republican told me he was voting for Gore. When I recovered, I asked him why, and he said "Because every time I look at him I see Ronald Reagan."

Subject: RE: Government---the bigger the better !!!!
From: Skeptic
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 03:17 PM

The last time the US increased the minimum wage (to $5.25) over protests from big business (claiming it would destroy SMALL business), the bill also included corporate tax credits and tax reliefs worth over $125 billion dollars for BIG business.

On one hand we have all the welfare queens (to use a favorite expression from the Regan era), living off of welfare, don't want to get a job, just lay around and have more kids. (Another convenient myth. The last time I saw figures, the average number of kids in a welfare family was 2.1. Non-welfare averaged 2.3).

And then we have corporate welfare. If big business really screws up, not due to market forces but their own unregulated greed, they are the first to demand that the government fix it. The Savings and Loan debacle was minimized by a very big government willing to step in and make good the excesses and outright fraud perpetrated by the Industry. And save a lot of people from the consequences of their own greed, come to that. Very few CEO's went to jail. A lot of middle and working class people lost a lot of money. The government helped get some of it back. There was a noticeable silence from the "on the dole" group over that. Is that any less welfare than food stamps?

The average CEO in Japan makes 10-12 times the average salary in his company and the US CEO makes 22-30 times the average(back in 1998 anyway). The average salary of a CEO increased by over 200% following a downsizing and the average CEO tenure following a downsizing was less than 18 months. And over the course of the next 5 years the performance of companies who did downsize suffered in comparison to the average growth rate. Still, there was all that lovely corporate welfare to ease the pain.

I would argue that the excesses and inequities of people "taking advantage" of the welfare system, pales in comparison to the excesses of corporate welfare. That the percentage of those "taking advantage of the system" is small. (Unless you feel that any welfare is wrong, of course). I would argue that a country where 20 million children live below the poverty level, with inadequate food, shelter and medical care is wrong because it is destructive of the foundation of society. If we, as a society, elevate whether a person is out there trying as being of higher value than a duty to provide for basic physical needs (by whatever means), there is a fundamental flaw in our thinking (IMO) that is inherently destructive of our social order.

Why is government welfare wrong. Because it isn't voluntary?. Neither is corporate welfare. Or the more subtle examples. Forget about food stamps and HUD housing and training programs. What about free public schools, public libraries, free roads, subsidized mass transit. Federal Deposit Insurance, state universities, student loans, the guaranteed minimum wage, federal pension insurance....ad infinitum?

The generality "Oh he/she could get a job if they really tried" is, essentially, an urban myth. The unemployment figures show a robust econony where anyone who wants to can succeed. These is a noticeable absence of figures on under-employment. Estimates on that range from 9-15%. Welfare in the pure sense (excluding medicare and social security) is a fraction of the dollars poured into corporate welfare. Why is it somehow wrong to keep feeding someone, even if they won't help themselves, when it isn't wrong to give big business massive tax breaks that allow the CEO's to get obscene salaries (even by the standards of their fellow capitalists.) and have a 12% rather than a 9% net profit margin?, even by the standards of their fellow capitalists.

Forget about food stamps and HUD housing and training programs. What about the less obvious forms of welfare? Free public schools, Libraries, free roads, subsidized mass transit. Federal Deposit Insurance. State universities. Student Loans. The generality "Oh he/she could get a job if they really tried" is, essentially, an urban myth. The unemployment figures show a robust economy where anyone who wants to can succeed. The underemployment figures are less comforting, ranging from 9% to as high as 20%.

Ad absurdum, is our society really better off if we let someone who won't help themselves (and their children) starve to death?

Regards John