BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: Troll
Date: 10 May 02 - 11:31 AM

Ignorance can be cured. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of ill manners or stupidity.
I do not agree with CarolC's solutions but I try not to be rude about it; acerbic, sarcastic, even ironic, but NOT rude.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: DougR
Date: 10 May 02 - 11:48 AM

I think Mark and Carol are "reaching" pretty far with their analogies. McGrath too. The U.S. has been involved in just about every major conflict in memory. Our armed forces have fought on foreign soil and after it is all over, they come home. I suppose, following WW II the U. S. could have claimed portions of Europe as spoils of war, but we didn't. We did retain some Islands in the Pacific that were captured with a lot of American blood, but if memory serves correctly, I think they have all been returned to Japan.

We may still occupy Wake Island and Guam, but I'm not sure. My point is, the U. S. is not a country that craves more territory. It does not go to war to claim more territory. Equating early America's fight for Independence from England with what is going on in the Middle East is to me, ludicrous.

Carol, when you go to Hawaii, I'm confident you and Mark will have a wonderful time sitting on the beach feeling guilty about all the horrible things your country has done. If that becomes tiresome, try the Helicoptor ride on Kauai, it's spectacular!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: Troll
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:05 PM

Yes Doug, the US does maintain control over Wake Is. and Guam is a US Territory with representation in Washington. Its inhabitants are American Citizens with the same ststus as the US Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, and American Samoa.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 02 - 06:28 PM

GUEST,Akala, none of what I have been saying has anything to do with giving land back to anyone. What I have been saying is that Israel should stop the ongoing process of continuing to take land away from the Palestinians.

And I have been advocating that this Israelis stop the brutal, bloody, and murderous practices that they have been using to try to coerce the Palestinians into giving up the little bit of land they still have.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 02 - 06:39 PM

DougR, you missaprehend the meaning of my analogy. I wasn't making an analogy between our war of independence from England. I was comparing what we did to the Native Americans to what Israel has done, and continues to do to the Palestinians.

And I'm not suggesting that anyone should feel guilty about it. But to the extent that the problem is ongoing in Israel, I am suggesting that we all speak out about it, and do whatever we can to help Israel move forward from this bloody part of its history. I think that's what most Israelis want as well. They just don't seem to be able to break out of the trap denial that they're stuck in.

It's a difficult thing to accomplish. In order to stop doing the things that have been causing the problems, they have to admit that they've been doing them. Can't stop doing something that you don't admit you're doing. Then, after they get real with themselves about it, they can say they're sorry and begin to help the Palestinians move forward out of the devastation in which they find themselves now because of the Israeli policies and practices.

In other words, don't feel guilty. Just stop it, and get to work helping to correct the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: DougR
Date: 10 May 02 - 06:56 PM

I was directing those remarks about the American Revolution to McGrath, Carol, not you. I took you to mean, when you said "our history is similar to Israel's" that the U. S. was an expansionist state by taking land gained from war.

troll: thanks for reminding this feeble old brain that Guam is a Territory. I knew that, but my mind just went blank when I was typing that post. I thought we controlled Wake Island too, because I seem to recall our launching bombers from Wake during the Viet Nam war, but I wasn't sure Clinton didn't give it to someone during the last few hours of his presidency. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 02 - 07:03 PM

Ok, DougR. I can see now how you would have seen the analogy that you did. My point with the suicide bombers is simply that we say we (Americans) love freedom. That we believe in freedom, and the equality of all people, that we believe in the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". We've enshrined these concepts in our civil religion here in the US.

What I was suggesting with that analogy was that those same concepts live in the hearts of many people. Not just Americans. We, as a people, have said that death is preferable to bondage. I think it's safe to say that we are not the only people who feel this way, and that it is the love of those concepts that drive the actions of the suicide bombers in Israel/Palestine. Is there a better way to gain one's liberty than by killing innocents? Probably. But are we only going to hold the Palestinians responsible for the deaths they have caused and not the Israelis?

Israel is responsible for the deaths of many more innocent Palestinians than Palestinians are for the deaths of innocent Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 02 - 07:04 PM

Oops. Looks like we cross-posted, DougR.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 02 - 09:41 PM

One more thing. I note, from two or three posts directed at me in this thread, that my speaking out against the killing of innocent Palestinians has earned me the hatred of some people here in the forum.

I can't see what anyone could hope to accomplish by hating me for wanting the killing of all innocent civilians to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 May 02 - 09:58 PM

in my naiive simplistic way, i support the aguments of carolc.

the murders are still happening from+to both groups in this conflict

do they all forget [away from the militarists] that its just ordinary people like themselves who are the victims

no one can change what happened yesterday

but everyone can change what happens today+tomorrow

i anticipate a lot of -tive shit

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 02 - 10:56 PM

"The conquest and settlement of your own country" - no, I wasn't meaning the American revolution, I was meaning the process by which the settlers took over the continent, displacing the existing inhabitants.

As pointed out, the same thing has happened in the past of most peoples. It's just that it's a lot more recent in the case of Americans and their fellow settlers in Canada, Australia and other places.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 02 - 04:42 AM

Just for some balance, maybe, here's what one Jewish organization has to say about their anti-Zionist position on religious and practical grounds. I'd post it as a link, but a lot of people don't seem to be reading the links. Maybe they won't read this either. But what the hell...

Once again the death toll mounts in the Holy Land.

Once again Zionist "doves" and "hawks" lock horns as to the proper response.

Is there any real alternative to the seeming never ending spiral of death and killing?

These are the questions which Jews of various persuasions are asking themselves today. Few and far between are those who believe that salvation lies in the camp of Brak or that of Sharon. A sense of being check mated has enveloped Zionism and with it those unfortunate souls who have allied themselves to it over the years.

In the paragraphs to follow we ask the reader to thoughtfully re-examine some of the current fashionable assumptions concerning the state of Israel and the Zionist movement.

We have cast our viewpoint in question and answer format in the dialogue between an enquiring mind (EM) and a traditional Torah sage (TTS).

EM -- Why is now, in particular, the time for a rethinking of old assumptions?

TTS – Frankly everyone is exhausted. The Israeli state has not delivered its promised goods. It is far from a safe haven for Jews. On the contrary it is in a perpetual situation of war and terror. Neither fighting nor peace negotiations seem to succeed. "Orthodox" pronouncements of devotion to further war no longer inspire.

EM – But isn't that because . . .

TTS – Yes, yes, I know. Not enough real fighting and war or not enough real concessions for peace. Listen, I said we would be going beyond the old clich?s not wallowing in them.

EM -- OK. What's your angle?

TTS – First mistake. It's not my angle.

EM – Whose is it?

TTS – It is the "angle" of the Jewish people since our exile began, namely, that we are homeless due to our sins and that only repentance and G-d's miraculous mercy can end exile. Not tanks and bombs. It seems that this is fairly clear today, don't you think?

EM – So, you're one of those ultra-Orthodox fanatics against the state of Israel?

TTS – Always beware of media stereotyping. When Zionism began it was opposed by the overwhelming majority of Torah leaders and rank and file observant Jews. It is only since 1948 that the strange hybrid of quasi - Zionism best exemplified by the Agudath Israel movement came into being. This position wanted all the results of Zionism, a state with wars and sovereignty but refused to participate in the killing and dying necessary. It demanded money and protection from a state it refused to defend. Zionists have justifiable despised this position.

EM – But that's the Charedi position? The ultra- Orthodox, isn't it?

TTS – Again, don't let the ill informed media think for you It is the Agudah position. Take the money and run. It is not the traditional view at all. The traditional view opposed Zionism. It regarded as vastly secondary who were the Zionists or how they ran their state. This traditional point of view is consistent and coherent. It refuses and has always refused state money and sees the real problem as the existence of the state itself.

EM – But the state protects them doesn't it?

TTS – Quite the contrary. The ancestors of those who adopt this view lived in large numbers in the Holy land long before Zionists arrived and provoked the native Muslim population. They lived at peace with their non - Jewish neighbors. It was after the immigration began, which sought political rule, that animosity started. So, Zionism has protected no one. At first it endangered the old Jewish inhabitants of the Holy Land. Then it endangered the millions who lived there. Finally, it has plunged into danger Jewry world wide and many others, including Americans anywhere around the world.

EM – The state is a reality. You can't wish it away. Today there is no alternative. It is protecting millions.

TTS – For 52 years, actually for 100 years, we have heard how, first we'll have to fight a bit, then Israel will be a safe haven for Jews. It hasn't happened. How many wars are needed? How many deaths till we say that too many people have died, until we are willing to admit that it was a lie, a horrible lie? A false guarantee that delivered the reverse of what it promised?

EM – So, what do you propose now?

TTS – First, let's get it clear that you are proposing nothing. You have no solution. All your solutions have been tried. Both war and peace have been attempted. For decades you have mocked our constant references to Talmudic statements which predict endless bloodshed as a punishment for seeking to prematurely end the exile. For a moment, just a moment pause and consider that everything we foretold has come true. Nothing you envisioned has. Maybe our Talmudic sages were right, after all?

EM – Again what is your plan?

TTS – Well, first we have to cleanse our minds and hearts of Zionist understandings of history. 1) We cannot shoot our way out of Divine punishment. 2) It is a grave sin to kill or be killed in order to establish pre-Messianic Jewish rule over the Holy Land. 3) The Israeli state in no way represents Jewry or Judaism. 4) Its "keeping" or "giving away" land has nothing to do with Jewry or Judaism. 5) Zionism – the arrogant usurpation of Divine Providence, must always fail, as foretold in Bible and Talmud and by Torah leaders over the centuries. 6) Jewish aggression against non –Jews is antithetical to our Torah mission.

EM – Your plan?

TTS – Our short term plan is to lesson somewhat the anti-Jewish sentiment which Zionism has created around the world and particularly in Islamic countries. We seek to inform the nations of the world that the dispossession of the Palestinians which exploded in 1948 but which had really been taking place since the turn of the century was wrong. And, that Torah Jewry had no part in this evil action. In general, we want to present an alternative to, so called, organized Jewry which forever wanders the globe seeking, in the true spirit of Zionism, to sew the seeds of hate against the nations.

EM – And long term?

TTS – We pray for a peaceful dismantling of the state.

EM – Is this realistic?

TTS – Is the current slavish devotion to Zionism realistic? Has it achieved anything except an endless body count and exacerbated anti-Semitism? The Almighty governs the affairs of men. Would all Jews see the evils of Zionism and then approach the Palestinian people in a spirit of reconciliation, with a sincere desire to relinquish control of the Holy Land the results would be surprisingly pleasant. In the meantime , though, our task is to disassociate ourselves from the heresy of Zionism and the evils it has perpetrated. By so doing we will sanctify the Creator's Name and restore the Torah dignity of the Jewish people.

EM – In the meantime it seems that not many are interested in your message?

TTS – First. Many have continued the original Torah true anti-Zionist belief system over the last century. They number in the hundreds of thousands. As far as the others are concerned there is a sense of total exhaustion. Half hearted efforts at peace accomplish nothing. The moral burden of the refugee question is overwhelming. The right offers only further war and terror and death in "defense" of the Holy Sites. Behind all the clich?s is the ever growing sense that Zionism is dead. It has failed utterly. With G-d's help this sense will harden into a clear realization. May this brief conversation serve as a signpost on that path back to truth. And may the Creator's mercies extend to all our people.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 02 - 12:16 PM

112 posts are too many. The thread continues here.