England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:44 AM

Poor old thread!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:55 AM

They say, old man, your thread will die
(And they say so, and we hope so)
They say, old man, your thread will die
(Oh poor old man)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:43 AM

Hope that last guest doesn't get wiped - it's a good rewrite, worthy of the Nice But Dim Knight thread... and Ed, how sad.. it's quite obvious you were trying for the 1500   :-)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:24 AM

OK, I'm beginning to smell a rat here. This message thread has been started on www.thesession.org, an Irish Traditional Music forum:

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19731

The sixth post down is the telling one . . .

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:32 AM

WAV and TheSession were made for each other.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 08:46 AM

Stigweard, so is one further down....

"James, you asked for an opinion about Walkabout Verse. Going on the Myspace page I'd say his recorder playing is about as good as his singing"

Sorry WAV/David/James Kingston or whatever your name(s) is(are) but you did ask for an opinion.

I think he means its 198920 (for any code breakers out there).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:09 AM

I had a feeling he was a wind-up merchant. Now we know.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:42 AM

Stigweard,

I don't think that this 'James Kingston' is WAV. If you look at a different thread on the session site, it would seem that people think it's a character called 'dickens metrognome' who has been posting there a good while (but is also a wind up merchant - the recorder in Irish Music is something they argue about a lot)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

"his racism...hapless Aussie Tourist / Exile feel", IB - who already knows I was born here and have lived here many years as an ENGLISH REPAT...but, for those who are still interested, my collection of poems is chronological from 0-35 years of age.
And to the last few - I'd never seen that forum until I just clicked Stigweard's link.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 01:08 PM

No, I don't think that was David's post. Although it expresses the same kind of cultural folk tyranny that David espouses, it was too articulate and coherent to have been written by David.

Unless he's much craftier than I think he is, but I really doubt it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 01:50 PM

Chronologicalfrom 0 - 35......

Some infant

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:25 PM

Damn - I was just going to put something along those lines ... writing poems at 0 is impressive ... but unlikely... nay impossible!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:46 PM

So, WAV has managed to get himself adopted by a braindead green-beer wannabe-Irish music site as an icon of shite recorder playing and has thereby reinforced their dimwitted prejudices about the recorder in general.

Gee, thanks.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM

I dunno - babies are probably quite good at rhyming - ga and ga, ba and ba and all that. Shame that the ability seems to have atrophied in WAV.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:22 PM

"Smokey - yes I've retired from versification, having said what I wanted to..."

I see.... so you're happy for everyone to think you're a workshy nationalist bigoted racist immigrant loser then? Not to mention a dreadful poet, a hopeless musician and a lousy singer? Sorry if I've missed anything, but you're such a complicated and interesting character.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 05:36 PM

". . . I've retired from versification, having said what I wanted to. . . ."

That gentle, warm breeze you just felt was the World of Poetry sighing a great sigh of relief.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 06:33 PM

Well you have to admit, as self-expression goes, it was a pretty effective bout of versification.

Personally I think he's only on here to get a girlfriend.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 07:13 PM

You have to admire WAV's novel approach of 'collecting' tradition material. Think of the wasted effort that Sharp et al. that could have been saved if they had just sung the songs themselves and transcribed their own versions ;)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:27 AM

WAV relentlessly urges people to read the inane drivel he thinks is poetry, he seems oblivious to the fact that no one gives a shit about it, it's crap man, get real for once in your life.

eric

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:33 AM

"No, I don't think that was David's post. Although it expresses the same kind of cultural folk tyranny that David espouses, it was too articulate and coherent to have been written by David.
Unless he's much craftier than I think he is, but I really doubt it." (Don Firth)...do you have much respect for the late Ewan MacColl (see my Top Friends for a link, if you like) Don?...at his, among other English folk clubs of the time, folks were strongly encouraged to perform from their own culture.
To Stu and Surreysinger, etc.: I began writing my chronolgoical collection (covering from 0-35 years of age) in the 1990s, so, obviously, the early ones are retrospective, and the latter contemporary - hence they have the season and year attached to them (see, if you wish, "A South Shields Walkabout", e.g., just posted on The Weekly Walkabout thread, below the line).
To SPB-Cooperator: I've only "transcribed" when the DigiTrad, or other, notation goes below middle C - the lowest note on my tenor-recorder/English flute...as I've said, my way is to keep trying to play as I sing and sing as I play the TUNES.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:42 AM

This is like a stuck record.
Can't we unplug him, or take his batteries out?
As Eric the Red says. WE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR GOOD LIFES WORK OR YOUR BLOODY RECORDER.......GO AWAY AND LEARN SOME HUMILITY..
Come back in a few years when you've done that

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:46 AM

"transposed" sorry.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:49 AM

Smokey said..."He's only on here to get a girlfriend"
(That conjures up some bizarre and slightly appaling images!)
If he is, I don't hold out much hope!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:57 AM

GO AWAY AND LEARN SOME HUMILITY..

Ralphie,

The only way that will happen is if we ignore him. We seem incapable of doing that...

Ed

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 06:39 AM

The comma after eg is so American don't you think?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:03 AM

Hey Ralphie, this moron is oblivious to anything that insults or disagrees with his moronic ideas, his conception of the world is blinkered to put politely, in his own mind he simply cannot be wrong, ever, about anything, and nothing will ever alter his view, he is a self made man who worships his creator.

I wonder if WAV ever ponders on the thought, why does no-one ever agree with me, or even like me ? I seriously doubt it.

eric

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:36 AM

...just heard the rugby crowd at Murrayfield singing "Flower of Scotland" (also on my Top Friends, link just above, if you wish) with just the tune played on just the Scottish highland pipes - sounded good to me folks.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 09:52 AM

Flower of Scotland

And the point of this reference is what, exactly?

Roy Williamson of 60s singalong pop group the Corries made this up. It's about the battle of Culloden, I think.
Those who know a thing ot two about Scots trad/In The Tradition music say fields where people run about chasing balls are quite the place for it.
A truer refection of Scotland's history and heritage, Hamish Henderson's Freedom Come All Ye, is infinitely preferred, were Scotland to opt, dubiously, for a "national" anthem.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 11:27 AM

Harmony is used by the bagpipe. The link will give you some simleexamples.

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 02:00 PM

WaV - Whilst it's fine to sing or play monophonically, and only perform a self-imposed limited range of material, the greater majority of people would find that unentertaining. A large proportion of musicians and singers wouldn't enjoy doing it. Many of us like harmony and texture, and we much prefer our audiences to be entertained, happy, and wanting more. Most performers like to eat as well. Folk music would die. It has to entertain enough people to maintain its existence. It has to be done in a way that a contemporary audience can derive some pleasure from, otherwise it doesn't get propagated. You play, sing and listen to what you like - we'll do the same. Live with it.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:28 PM

". . . do you have much respect for the late Ewan MacColl, Don?...at his, among other English folk clubs of the time, folks were strongly encouraged to perform from their own culture."

David, I met Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger at the 1960 Berkeley Folk Festival. I heard them in concert and in several workshops. And one evening, I had a chance to converse with them informally at a party after one of the concerts. Then once again in the early 1980s, they passed through Seattle on a concert tour, when I met them again and had a chance, with a few other Seattle singers, to swap songs and conversation with them at yet another post-concert party.

Yes, I know that MacColl encouraged people to perform songs from their own culture. But this suggestion was made most strongly at a time when practically everybody in the English folk clubs were singing American folk songs. I fully understand his reason for urging people to sing songs from their own cultures.

I do not believe he intended that this admonition become an ironclad rule for all people for the rest of Eternity.

Here's a little tip to aid you in your "walkabout" through life, David. It is not enough to know the guidelines for a particular activity or situation, one needs to know the underlying reasons for those guidelines.

If you meditate long and hard about this, it could help you avoid saying stupid things.

####

And in his post just above, Smokey is right. If I were limited to singing only songs of my own culture, first of all, I would have to figure out what that culture is. Born in Los Angeles, California, raised in Seattle in the Pacific Northwest, and subject to an early diet of pop music on the radio and opera and classical music later on, I discovered the wide field of folk music in my very early twenties.

What are the songs of my culture? Frank Sinatra? Perry Como? Opera singers like Ferrucio Tagliavini or Italo Tajo? Should I be singing California gold rush songs or the songs of Pacific Northwest loggers and fishermen (which I do, by the way, among many others)?

Once discovering folk music, I dipped into the wide ocean of songs that were available:   songs from all over the United States and Canada (both of which are big countries with a whole patchwork of different cultures), and songs from the British Isles—England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales (likewise with a variety of different cultures within each of these), along with a small number of songs from the European continent, in the original languages.

Were it not for the wide variety of songs available to me to learn and sing, my musical interests would have probably moved on to something else, and I wouldn't have enjoyed the life I have, making my livelihood by entertaining people, and informing and educating them about the infinite variety of that which we call "folk music."

So tell me, David:    What, to your mind, should I be allowed to sing?

And don't say "Amerindian" drumming and chants! There are a couple of problems with that. First, there are several dozen Native American tribes, each with its own distinctive style of music. So—which? Iroquois? Cherokee? Arapahoe? Seminole? Haida? Sioux? Apache? Nez Perce? Navaho? Which?

And the second problem:   on one occasion, in 1953, I saw an exhibition of Pacific Northwest Native American (not "Amerindian," as you so quaintly put it) singing, drumming, and dancing. And this exhibition was done by anthropologist and artist, Bill Holm—who was not Native American. This was my one and only live and in person exposure to examples of Native American culture.

It would be very difficult to make a case that Native American music is part of my culture.

So again, David:   I your view of the world, what is my culture? What songs should I be allowed to sing?

And what songs should I not be allowed to sing?

I await your edict.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 03:49 PM

I've got a three year old son (late in life, it's a family tradition) and I want him to grow up with as wide a range of music as possible. Anyone who wants to limit that is simply not worth the oxygen.

Yesterday he said to me: "Daddy, what's Diddy Wa Diddy?" then asked me to sing it for him. I was the proudest man on earth.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 04:48 PM

"So tell me, David:    What, to your mind, should I be allowed to sing?" (Don)...the only way I'd like to answer that is by saying, strictly hypothetically, if I'd stayed rather than visited America in the 90s, I'd probably be listening to Amerindian chants, drums, and flauting; and attempting Country/Rock...perhaps having a go at the lap-steel (although the ones that require co-ordinating feet and knees, as well as both hands!, would probably be beyond me, frankly), e.g. But, as an Englishman, I enjoy LISTENING to the likes of Bon Jovi, The Beach Boys, some Country singers, etc, as well as Amerindian musicians, such as those on my Top Friends.

Diane - "Flower of Scotland" includes the line "those days are gone now", before looking forward.

(P.S:, for what it's worth, I thought Scotland, who finished the stronger, were a tad unlucky to lose to S.A.)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 04:58 PM

WAV, what the fuck do you mean by Amerindian? I always assumed that was a lazy, eurocentric way of talking about indigenous people from South America. What are they doing north of the Darien Gap?
For Pete's sake, every time you put a paw on the keyboard you get something egregiously wrong. Just give it a rest, you numpty.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM

A complete and utter waste of oxygen.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:39 PM

Well . . . that would appear to be the pattern:   ask an intelligent question, get a stupid answer.

(Sigh)

Don Firth

P. S. Beach Boys!?? Me? Singing Beach Boys covers? Yeah, sure! When they build a ski-jump in Hell!!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 05:47 PM

Smokey said..."He's only on here to get a girlfriend"
(That conjures up some bizarre and slightly appaling images!)

I dunno. I could imagine Eliza or Diane suddenly feeling a desire to experiment with domination by duct tape.

Diane - the battle in "Flower of Scotland" is Bannockburn, not that knowing that makes the song any better. The Corries were better than a "singalong pop group", but not with that one.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 06:44 PM

The author of The Flower of Scotland sings it with guitar accompaniment and of course vocal harmonies

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 06:46 PM

If David does manage to find a girl friend, I hope he remembers to get a bicycle pump to inflate her with.

Don Firth

(Naughty naughty, Mr. Firth!!)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 07:34 PM

Flour of Scotland (When will we see your like again?)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Nov 08 - 08:57 PM

Link doesn't work - Dave doesn't like you linking directly to images on his site.
I can guess what it's of from the URL, I used to live just along the shore from it.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 02:56 AM

If WAV indeed finds a girfriend at all, let's all pray that they don't breed.

eric

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 09:16 AM

Gervase - I first heard the term "Amerindian", in Australia, from my American anthropology lecturer, and have since read/heard several others use it.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 01:07 PM

What about Aussiepom?

What accent should Jimmie Miller have used?

What about the thirty foot trailer?

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

Oh and 'Go Move Shift' didn't reflect some sort of anti immigration stance of MacColl's

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 01:38 PM

"David, I met Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger at the 1960 Berkeley Folk Festival. I heard them in concert and in several workshops. And one evening, I had a chance to converse with them informally at a party after one of the concerts. Then once again in the early 1980s, they passed through Seattle on a concert tour, when I met them again and had a chance, with a few other Seattle singers, to swap songs and conversation with them at yet another post-concert party.

Yes, I know that MacColl encouraged people to perform songs from their own culture. But this suggestion was made most strongly at a time when practically everybody in the English folk clubs were singing American folk songs. I fully understand his reason for urging people to sing songs from their own cultures.

I do not believe he intended that this admonition become an ironclad rule for all people for the rest of Eternity."



He shoots, he scores.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 02:26 PM

And isn't it written that McColl based his singing style on the Muezzin and other melismatic & decidely non-English vocal techniques, & encouraged others to listen outside the box for similarly essential inspiration?

Such inspirations notwithstanding*, in terms of ethnomusicology, I believe the cause of indigenous music & culture is best served by indigenous people - which is why the thought of a Naturalised Australian throwing away his Own Good Culture to mimic that of a country which he has no evident appreciation or understanding of a tad irksome.

*I, for example, use various non-Western musical hardware to accompany my performance of English Speaking Traditional Song but I make no attempt to play the music of the cultures this hardware comes from. Please note, this is a personal preference and not a manifesto, published or otherwise. Similarly, when I tell Norwegian folk tales, I do so in English.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM

David, Native Americans themselves do not agree as to how they wish to be referred to. Some object to being called "Indian" because it misidentifies them (and indicates that Columbus and many who came after him didn't have a clue as to where they really were and assumed that they [the "Indians"] were inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent or of what we now refer to as "the East Indies"). Some dislike "Amerindian" or "Amerind" because it merely takes "American" as an adjective and the original misidentification and turns them into a compound word.

On the other hand, some Native Americans don't mind it because it is brief, contrary to some of the convoluted attempts to be "politically correct."   For example, Native American author and poet Sherman Alexie says that he does not mind being called an "Indian."

By the way, you will note, if you scroll down in the link above, the number of novels and books of poetry by Sherman Alexie that have been published—not just on a web site, or self-published, but by big name publishers. Note also the many awards he has received for his literary efforts. At least one of his novels has been made into a movie.

And, also by the way, he doesn't go around in buckskins and feathers. He usually wears casual western dress and frequently wears a suit and necktie.

Sometime in the mid 1980s, I met a Native American writer (unfortunately, I do not remember his name, but he has several science fiction novels to his credit) at a Norwescon, a local science fiction convention (he, too, was wearing a suit, not feathers and buckskins). In a workshop in which we participated (on building a believable alien culture inhabiting another planet), he had a great deal to add to the discussion. One of the points he made which is most germane to this discussion is the following. Heed this, David, because it is important, relevant to your suggestion that Americans should do "Amerindian chanting and drumming."

He said that such things as chanting, drumming, and flute playing are more often that not ceremonies of one sort or another, generally of a religious nature, and they should not be performed out of the context of the ceremony. For this reason, they do not like it when anthropologists or ethnomusicologists try to record their music. To "perform" these chants by playing recordings of them, or for non-Native Americans to try to perform them, in essence, is to violate their equivalent of one of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord Thy God (the Spirits) in vain." They feel that for non-Native Americans to sing these chants verges on desecration.

So—out of respect for the culture(s) of the Native American peoples, your suggestion that Americans should do "Amerindian chanting and drumming" displays your lack of knowledge.

And lack of knowledge has been your problem all along. You know not whereof you speak. You should be trying to learn. Not telling others what they should or should not be doing.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 04:46 PM

Besides, David wants to play and sing the music of his ancestors - his "cultrual heritage". Relatively few Americans can claim Native American heritage. Many in the northeast can't trace their American heritage back more than a few generations, and have grown up with the music and food cultures of their own ancestors, may of whom were European.

Why would it be more relevant to my cultural inheritance to sing "Amerindian" music, when it is completely foreign to my cultural heritage? Surely the music of my Irish and Sicilian ancestors would be more relevant...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Nov 08 - 06:31 PM

Let's face it.....Wavyfunkywhiteboyracist don't know jack-shit, ain't interested in learning jack-shit, and could give less than a shit that most folks find him to be a dickhead.

To sum up, his poetry is horrendous, his opinions are racist and bigoted, he's an arrogant fuckwit with limited knowledge, no abilities he can prove, and obviously no job since no one in their right mind wants this asshole around. He's a pathetic broke-dick jadrool with no redeeming social value.

Have a nice day!

Spaw