BS: Japan Nuclear plant disaster, 2011

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

Paul Gunther says a total of 9 Nuke plants are out of control.

Water pipes have broken in Japan virtually everwhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:22 AM

No offense, but the spelling is Gunter.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:25 AM

Well, look on the bright side...we may all soon be able to use our credit cards up to the hilt and never have to pay them back!

Sorry, but my black sense of humour always creeps in during disastrous moments and this is sure one of those..

WHY did mankind EVER go on to use something so evil as nuclear power? Let alone build these terrible places in earthquake zones..I mean????

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:30 AM

Official Report from FOX

Three power plants in Japan are at risk of overheating.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:33 AM

Lizzie during the cold war following WW2 the US needed nuclear plants to produce the plutonium needed to make nuclear weapons.

A big push to build these plants in the name of using the steam to power turbines which make electricity was very profitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM

The term breeder reactor refers to plutonum being created.

The plants were built with miltary budget money and sweetheat deals that made States pay huge sums made holding companies and owners rich.

But in case you haven;t heard, nuclear power is safe

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:47 AM

People do not generally care where their electricity comes from as long as it's there for the electric toothbrush, hair dryer, power tools, etc. Like hydro-electric dams, everythings fine until something fucks up. Well, in places where there have been 'nuclear accidents' something has fucked up.

As I stated earlier (on this thread or another), there are about 450 nuclear power plants generating electricity. About 60% of them are badly in need of upgrading or repair. I also posted that about five years back and had my head handed to me by people saying I was an alarmist, didn't know what I was saying, etc. People are afraid of facts about nuclear power. The rub is this:

Electricity is generated by wind power, solar power, hydro-electric dams, coal/oil-fired generators or nuclear power plants. Neither wind nor solar power meed the so-called needs for electricity we seem to have. Many countries just can't generate power because the dams are more expensive to build and generating electricity becomes more expensive than people will or can pay. That leaves coal and oil generators. Bur coal to generate electricity and Greenpeace is chewin' yer ass. Use oil and environmentalists are chewin' yer ass. Use nuclear and some other group is chewin' it.

The answer is to use LOTS less electricity, and to force our governments to begin exploring solar power more fully. Saving 10% on one's petrol bill is nice. But then we produce 10% more cars and wonder why we ain't gettin' anywhere. Thedy are the same dumb fucks who smack their thumbs with hammers and wonder why their thumbs hurt. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Ringer
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

The world is not going to end today. Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:48 AM

What car did you drive in the late 1950's??

Thats how old the design for these N plants in Japan are.



Construction began in 1960 and the plants wer finished in 1970.

They have been modified since then but mainly in the wrong direction, such as mixing plutonum and uranium in the fuel pellets.



Would you, could you drive that 1959 car you had today?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM

Don, I know people who do. They took care of the cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM

Good articl;e Ringer.

The good doctor did not mention that these reactors were supposed to be retired after 30 years.

We have many reactors in the US that also were intended to be retired 30 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:53 AM

Thanks for the link, Ringer.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:06 AM

It's a a bit of wry irony a site advocating nuclear energy saying the world is not going to end while Fukushima 2 is believed to be in meltwown and reactors 1 and 4 damaged by hydrogen explosions barely hanging on and the wind is changing heightening fears any released radiation will go straight towards Tokyo.

No, the world won't be ending, it will be quite a different place though.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:35 AM

Peter-

Please proof what you are posting or review what you are reading before you post.

It's reactor units 1 and 3 which have had their roofs and upper walls blown off by hydrogen explosions so far. Units 4, 5, and 6 are in the same Fukushima complex but were shut down for regularly scheduled maintenance before the earthquake and the tsunami and hopefully will not be affected by what is currently happening in this complex. Unit 2 appears to be in serious trouble and I would expect that it too will experience a hydrogen explosion similar to what happened to 1 and 3. Is everyone keeping score now?

Now on the topic of fuel rods Unit 3 appears to be unique at the Fukushima complex, according to what's posted at Wikipedia:

From September 2010, unit 3 has been fueled by mixed-oxide (MOX) fuel rather than low enriched uranium (LEU) used in the other reactors.

The situation is serious enough without getting the basic facts incorrect. Of course, what's posted at Wkipedia may also be incorrect but please cite sources for such statements so that we can do some follow-up rather than argue about our deeply held opinions.

Donuel's scenario described above for what might happen in a nuclear meltdown at this complex may be all too true. No, it's unlikely to be a bomb like explosion but there will certainly be a major release of highly radioactive material to the environment.

My faith in the integrity of stainless steel containment vessels is challenged by the fact that these vessels are 40 years old and are weakened by embrittlement after being bombarded by radioactive isotopes for this period.

Well, it's time to go back and continue painting the living room in the vacant apartment across the hall. Why do I hear a Peter Berryman song echoing in my ears?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:41 AM

Yes, sorry. That should have been 1 and 3.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 09:44 AM

I do not besmirch anyone for wanting to believe what ever gives them comfort.


The industry standard explanation of how safe reactors are is to be expected/

Please note the "Ringer lInk" speaks in the subjective future pluferfect tense...


"After the meltdown, there would have been a waiting period for the intermediate radioactive materials to decay inside the reactor, and all radioactive particles to settle on a surface inside the containment. The cooling system would have been restored eventually, and the molten core cooled to a manageable temperature. The containment would have been cleaned up on the inside. Then a messy job of removing the molten core from the containment would have begun, packing the (now solid again) fuel bit by bit into transportation containers to be shipped to processing plants."



That sounds all well and good but with not water or electricty many of the assumptions made do not apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:07 AM

Donuel-

While I was reading that somewhat comforting quote about "meltdown clean-up" there was this cartoon Power Point presentation playing in my head, narrated by Woody Woodpecker.

I've got to get away from computers and cable for a while.

See you all later.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 10:59 AM

They seem to be handling it very well so far - a little venting, a little explosion, a little more venting, another little explosion, nothing major yet, which, considering, is considerable, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:12 AM

The Diane Rheems show was most informative. The workers have done every procedure to minimize radiaton at a cost of about 3 billion dollars so far. The plutonium fuel is a 5% mix and not meant for these Mark 1 reactors which means they will melt at a lower temperature and be more toxic if a core breech should occur. France uses a 30% plutonium mix in a more advanced reactor. 18 workers have been hurt by blast or exposure. It seems that the chimney is not working so gas built up inside the building.

One could compare it to a 40 year old submarine that is below its design depth. As long as the containment "hull" holds up, the ship will survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 11:19 AM

Thw world NEEDS to be a different place.

The Hopi People are out there trying to get folks to realise that 2012 will bring their prophecy to fruition, of a massive World Change in how we live, think, act...

There have been many other disasters leading up to this one, but this one will, I think, finally begin to make people terrified of nuclear power...coupled with the financial situations around the world too, which is making people open their eyes to corruption, to absolute shitty behaviour..

Japan will change the world in many ways...be it is we, the people of this beautiful, BEAUTIFUL planet who have to change our ways, our thoughts, our outlooks with more speed and more strength than any tsunami could ever bring....because if we don't, we will also wreak more havoc than all the world's tsunamis put together.

Part 1 of The Indigenous Native American Prophecy

2012 The Indigenous Elders

EVERYTHING is going wrong, not just earthquakes, not just tsunamis, not just The Corporate Bastards..It is everything...even down to the humble bumble bee...who we cannot live without....

We have poisoned this planet, not just with the chemicals we have made and poured over the Land, but with the chemicals within our minds, that have become so out of balance, so destructive....

We do not need cars.

I live a very simple life compared to many, as I do not drive..so therefore I'm very local in where I live, how I live. A day out somewhere far away is a real treat. A trip on a train is exciting.
I've been on a plane, twice...never again, hated it. I don't need to visit every country in the world, I don't need the latest gizmos and gadgets...I'm quite happy even if computers, the internet disappear, to be honest, because much as it's done a great deal of good in connecting us all together, it has also made our lives so complicated..and I'm tired of answering many questions each time I make a phone call....I'm tired of the wa it's allowed evil people to come together, throwing all the good people into the age of suspicion, where all are viewed to be possibly guilty...

I'd love to go back to small communities, simple lives, where our work was mainly for ourselves, tilling the ground, growing our own food, taking care of our families, each other....and satisfaction came, at the end of the day, from a hot meal around a fire, not from a £10,000 computer or a £30,000 car.

We make things deliberately to wear out, so more profit can be made...and all it's ended up diong is wearing US all out with worry and anxiety......

This planet is our Home, the only one we have...and we are desecrating and destroying it. We forget this planet is not just OUR home though, that we share it with every other species under the sun...who have an equal right to be here, to exist on a wonderful planet...

I grieve...

I grieve for all that we are losing, all that we have lost...and all we have yet to lose....

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:08 PM

Meltdown of fuel rods now 'likely happening' in three Fukushima reactors

From the current Guardian blog:


Japanese officials say the nuclear fuel rods appear to be melting inside all three of the most troubled nuclear reactors, according to Associated Press.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said: "Although we cannot directly check it, it's highly likely happening."

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:17 PM

I have just been looking at an aerial photo of the plant (by AFP):

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51672000/jpg/_51672113_011525965-1.jpg

You might be able to work in what's left of reactor 1. The reactor 3 building is filled with smoking rubble from this morning's explosion. Any reassurances about the state of the inner containment are pure guesswork when nobody can get near it to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: josepp
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:24 PM

This thread long ago passed from one actually concerned about the distaster that struck Japan to whining and bitching liberal tree-hugger guilt trip bullshit. When liberals start that stuff it's far worse than listening to conservatives whining. At least their whining is funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

Meantime, the Indian PM has assured the citizenry that all their nuclear plants are safe. I will sleep well tonight.

Japan now has five malfunctioning plants. Food and water are in short supply where they are most critically needed. No tree hugging here. Maybe a whine or two for the people suffering most.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 12:32 PM

You're having a good day for a change. I'm happy for you, josepp.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:13 PM

"... the Indian PM has assured the citizenry that all their nuclear plants are safe."

I think they have CANDUs, maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:36 PM

It ocurred to me that India has nuclear weapons. Not easy with a CANDU so I read up. My statements are way outta date! From Wiki...

In terms of safeguards against nuclear proliferation, CANDU reactors meet a similar level of international certification as other reactor designs. However, there is a common misconception that the plutonium for India's first nuclear detonation, conducted in 1974 Operation Smiling Buddha, was produced in a CANDU design. In fact, the plutonium was produced in the unsafeguarded CIRUS reactor whose design is based on the NRX, a Canadian research reactor. In addition to its two CANDU reactors, India has some unsafeguarded pressurised heavy water reactors (PHWRs) based on the CANDU design, and two safeguarded light-water reactors supplied by the United States. Plutonium has been extracted from the spent fuel from all of these sources in the PREFRE reprocessing facility.[18] While all of these reactors could in principle be used for plutonium production, India uses an Indian designed and built military reactor for plutonium production called Dhruva. It is believed that the Dhruva reactor design is derived from the CIRUS reactor, with the Dhruva being scaled-up for more efficient plutonium production. It is this reactor which is thought to have produced the plutonium for India's more recent (1998) Operation Shakti nuclear tests.[19]

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:43 PM

"Japan now has five malfunctioning plants."


No.. 5 reactors at two 'plants'.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:46 PM

You have to find yourself on a planet that has no trees left. Then you might begin to relate to the idea of hugging one.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 01:58 PM

And, further... "India: 2 (+13 CANDU-derivatives in use, +3 CANDU-derivatives under construction)"

Essentially, only the two CANDUs can be considered "safe" (well, "safer" than other designs).

Thank goodness our new (last fall) premier shelved a feasibility study for a French light water plant in our province. Our CANDU refurbishment has be delayed many times and it's scheduled to be back on line in the fall of 2012.

As for Japan, I haven't been able to bring myself to check the latest news or watch any of it on TV today. Donuel talked of a helpless feeling. I think the world feels the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 02:04 PM

Saw a cartoon. About fifty dogs sitting in a line. The lone tree in the frame showed a dog peeing. Like, I can relate, LH.

Once upon a time in the Sahara Forest . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 02:34 PM

TEPCO released 5 press releases so far today. None give much information. (Google for Tepco- easier than giving links which are soon out of date)

Unit 3- "It is believed that the reactor containment vessel remains intact. However, the status ......"

Unit 2- Applying preventive measures to wall of reactor building to ventilate the hydrogen gas. Reactor core cooling failed, incident reported.

Most of what is posted above by various individuals and news services concerning conditions at the plants is speculation. .....
Could be better, could be worse......

Have a nice day!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 03:04 PM

Just read a bunch of stuff. While it seems like a "who knows?", the fact that the USN has backed off 25 miles kinda gives me the willies.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 03:07 PM

I stand corrected Bill.
Reuters seems to think the worst is over:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/14/us-japan-nuclear-radiation-risk-idUSTRE72D6UC20110314

Hope they are right.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 03:25 PM

I heard on the radio coming back from errands that the fire truck providing the pump for the salt water for Unit 2 at Fukushima had run out of gas...the fuel rods were exposed and pressure was building up again in the reactor chamber.

Ads a note to everyone, looking closely at the cutaway diagram at Wikipedia for this type of reactor, there is a reactor chamber within which the fission reaction happens and heats the water coming in to boiling. The steam escapes out a pipe at the top and is used for running the electrical turbines. The entire reactor chamber is encased in a reactor containment vessel which evidently has not been breached. The reactor building was an additional layer of containment but the hydrogen blast blew out the roof and upper walls.

The saltwater is still being pumped in around the reactor chamber in Unit 1 and 3. It's unclear what is happening to the saltwater afterwards, whether it's being drained back into the bay. There are not a lot of good options left for dealing with that problem.

Josepp-

I had hopes you would contribute more to this thread than your own polemics. Shape up or ship out! We're both too old for that kind of nonsense.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 05:54 PM

IAEA update - International Atomic Energy Agency

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 06:15 PM

Here's the latest update prepared by the Nuclear Information Resource Center:

UPDATE 12:30 pm, Monday, March 14, 2011. According to our colleagues in Japan, Tokyo
Electric Power states that Fukushima Daiichi-2 "has again lost its coolant (sea water was
pumped in but is dropping). They cannot ease the reactor pressure because the relief valve is stuck closed. Air dose rate on site (outside the reactor building) was 3,130 at around 9:30pm."
We believe the 3,130 figure means 3130 MicroSievert/hour, which would be highest reading yet recorded—about 310 millirems/hour. For comparison, the U.S. EPA allowable dose to a member of the public from a single reactor is 25 millirems/year, the U.S. NRC's allowable dose is 100 millirems/year from all nuclear sources.

From the regular media reports it appears that the Japanese have been able to resume pumping saltwater into Unit 2 at Fukashima, the plant where fuels rods were being exposed. That is better news in a dire situation.

I've watched Wolf Blitzer get outmaneuvered by an expert from a nuclear industry lobby just now. He claims that US nuclear plants in earthquake zones are built to standards appropriate to the conditions where they are located. Well, that was also true of Fukushima and the other troubled nuclear complexes in Japan, and the standards have proved inadequate. His back-up position was that we need to learn lessons from this event and move on with a new generation of improved nuclear plants. Well, there's something to be said for that, if the nuclear industry is willing to shut down all their existing plants for recertification. But Blitzer winged it to another aspect of the disaster.

Other "experts" are advocating fusion plants, a theoretically interesting concept but unproven as operational systems.

At this point I'd entertain the concept of switching to whale oil as an alternative (hey, whales, I'm only joking!), before plunking for fusion.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: gnu
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:06 PM

Charley... what about the CANDU? It's the safest design there is from what I have read (I am NOT well read on this subject). It's more costly and you can't build a lotta nuclear bombs with them, but...?

Sorry for the thread drift.

Back to the thread... if the valve is u/s and the fuel is dry... are we talking a nasty SPEW?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:14 PM

So the fate of Japan and possibly the world depends on one firetruck that ran out of gas? Why wasn't there more gas standing by? I know gas is short but this should be top priority. THere seem to be lots of fishing boats floating about..capture gas from them.

Whoever engineered this thing that could be stopped by a firetruck running out of gas should be stripped of her professional certification. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:26 PM

if the valve is u/s and the fuel is dry... are we talking a nasty SPEW?

Luckily this kind of thing doesn't happen often enough to estimate the likelihood.

Maybe, maybe not. It's worse than Three Mile Island now, but not as bad as Chernobyl or Kyshtym. That's about all anybody can say on the facts we've got.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:29 PM

mg, I am speechless.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:36 PM

Al-Jazeera reports a new explosion, at Fukushima Reactor 2 this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:38 PM

Japanese TV has reported a containment vessel breech and a sharp increase in radiation

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:40 PM

A new evacuation distance has been ordered.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:47 PM

Perhaps only a vlave has burst. They suspect that air from the containment vessel is coming out. They can not be sure about the bottom of the containment vessel but they mentioned that the vessel has lost its water.

100 tons of 95% uranium and 5% Plutonium shoudld not be allowed to collect into one giant ball.

Despite the danger boron and water should still be poured on this mess despite the risk of steam explosions and drastic radiation release. ITs better than the small chance of criticality growing into a runaway chain reaction. Yes I know they say this is impossible but at temps over 5000F we have no experiments to refer to.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 07:49 PM

for lack of a nail a war was lost.



At one point the portable generator brought on site could not be used because the plugs did not match.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:00 PM

ABC coverage of second explosion

This third explosion happened within the hour.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:13 PM

According to the BBC weather page, the wind is currently blowing straight from Fukushima towards Tokyo and will stay that way for a day or so. Rain tomorrow night. If the thing blows soon this is about the worst weather situation imaginable.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:16 PM

Unit 2 has blown its roof and walls off. No one is certain what else has happened.

Take a deep breath.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuclear plant disaster looming
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 11 - 08:42 PM

NHKworld English here:
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/index.html

NHK is the official Japanese broadcaster. The latest story, dated March 15, 0:11 UTC, reports that TEPCO failed to raise water level in reactor Number 2, and fuel rods remain exposed.

Updated 07:48 UTC- Seawater was let into the reactor starting 1:00AM, but "as of 3:00AM, the water level remains low and the fuel rods remain exposed."
A TEPCO official (at 04:27 AM) said fuel rods may have overheated and begun melting.