BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 06:06 PM

"Unprecedented degree of autonomy"

Actually the UK of GB&NI has been a devolved state basically from its inception. Stormont was only suspended because of The Troubles.

"no-one has offered the English a regional parliament"

Scotland wasn't just offered a parliament! It was campaigned for on and off for over a century and a massive public call for it in the mid 20thC was simply ignored. If there was the same call for devolution within England then it would be quickly provided in comparison. Sheer demographic ensure that.

"all the Scots MPs in Westminster - you have more influence over decisions that affect just us than we have over decisions that affect just you"

For a start Westminster is not your pie! It is the UK parliament. The devolution settlement is half arsed and incomplete but it has to be kept in perspective. First I have to mention that the SNP (ie the main party calling for independence) do not actually vote on so called English only matters anyway! Secondly it is only in general a theoretical imbalance as Scottish votes have only made a difference on a couple of occassions at most. In fact with over 60 Sewel Motions carried out by unionist parties since devolution started the imbalance has still been the other way round. Over 60 pieces of supposed devolved legislation which were voted on by MPs at westmisnter rather than MSPs at Holyrood. Thirdly again this situation has been the case since the UK in its present form was created. Northern Irish MPs always voted on Scottish, English and Welsh matters. Why was there never a West Belfast Question? It seems the English Tories never minded non-English people voting on their English matters especially when the MPs in question were Ulster Unionits who largely sided with the Tories - they only took exception to Scots doing the same who of course tend to be anti-Tory

As to the subsidising thing. Come on catch up with the debate. Even the UK gvt itself no longer tries to claim Scotland is subsidised. For almost the past half century it has been the other way round!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 09:39 AM

I've been listening to Mark Carney talking about monetary union between the rest of the UK and Scotland should the Scots vote for independence. All the usual bean counter fluff, but it raises an interesting point.

Surely Scotland can only have true independence by having it's own currency? If Salmond has his way Scotland will still have to kowtow to the Bank of England (bound to induce the howling fantods in those north of the border who hate any association with England) and which, due to the nature of a common currency might mean Scotland will have less control over it's economy in some situations than it would like, for example if it needed to devalue it might not be able to because the interests of other countries need to be taken in account (ask the Greeks how that feels).

This would of course lead to cries of "foul!" amongst those who believe they might be being oppressed once more by the "auld enemy", but who willingly signed up to the arrangement.

Would Scotland not be better off biting the bullet and establishing their own currency from the outset? This would give Scotland true autonomy and cement it's status as an independent nation.

Also, there would need to be a cross-border agreement to stop Scottish managers working in the Premier League as it seems they have been sent down to bugger up the English national team (as my Mum is Welsh meaning the good half of me is, I support Wales in the rugby so don't give a stuff about that).

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 10:52 AM

I also listed/watched the Carney speech and later his press conference. He was quite clear about staying out of the political debate and that he was only discussing the technicalities of a currency union. I agree with Stu that an dependent currency is the best option but I think pragmatically, like Ireland and Australia who stayed with Sterling for about 40 years, that Sterling is the best bet in the short term. This will have to mean compromise, but a NEGOTIATED compromise. Interestingly Carney had just sat down when Alistair Darling tweeted "Salmond's pound is dead". How's that for a reasonable response to Carney's honest crafted speech.
And as far as Stu's nationalistic attitude on choosing football managers .. there seems to be a dearth of English ones and lots of Scots, French, Italian .... I also have no time for the 90 minute nationalists.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 12:40 PM

UK referendum. Should we negotiate fiscal union with a foreign power?

You could apply that to Euro or Haggis Vouchers. I doubt the answer has altered over the years.

Oh, and I was very pro Euro when in business. Still am, but that's irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 02:54 PM

Ack! My long-winded reply disappeared into the ether. The footy thing was a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 10:17 AM

Allan - maybe you don't intend to, but you make yourself sound like the sort of one-eyed SNP adherent that puts everyone else off (Scots, English, etc!).

Perhaps Scotland wasn't "just" offered a parliament; I'm not keenly interested enough to investigate how much genuine desire for such things has ever been (& not daft enough to accept any propagandists claim sight unseen). But, by your lights, were the Welsh ever "offered" a parliament? The point is that the three other divisions of the UK *now* all have some sort of say over their own affairs; England doesn't. So Scotland already has a degree of autonomy, along with Wales & NI. Poor ol' bloody England just has to put up with what Westminster decides.

Pie - again, you have missed my point. Of course Parliament isn't an English pie; I never suggested it was. But Scotland has some influence over what Scotland decides because it is devolved. And Scotland has some influence over what the UK decides, because Scottish MPs sit in Parliament. But Scotland also has some influence over what is decided for England, by right of those Scottish MPs.

England has NO direct influence over what is decided for England, because we have no direct voice. England only exercises, now, an indirect influence over what happens in Scotland through the same route that you do; Parliament. I don't think demographic has anything to do with it. There have been calls for an English Holyrood. But it's not in the interests of any party to pay it any attention, and people are largely, I believe, disaffected from politics. Whatever the underlying reasons, the Scots have rather more influence over English affairs than the English do over Scots.

As for the subsidy question, feel free to enlighten me, because I confess myself largely ignorant. However, the one thing that has been repeated down the years has been "North Sea Oil". Well, that's running down these days, so you might find yourselves in trouble if you're relying on that. Besides, when the SNP try to claim continental shelves etc, would you like to remember who paid all the development costs for exploration, for infrastructure, etc? It wasn't Scotland. It was private enterprise or the UK. So why do SNP-types suddenly think they've a claim on a cut of the remaining profits without bearing any of the costs that were / are / will be involved?

Ah. That'll be the same piece of nationalistic chicanery that says "retaining monetary union would be terrific". For Scotland maybe. Not for the UK. It's a sad fact of life that London and, by extension the South-East, subsidises the rest of the UK. Scotland included.

Like I said, you won't sink & neither will we. I just think that the sum is greater than the parts.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 07:02 PM

Sorry but you can't just dismiss someone as "one eyed" just because he disagrees with points you put and puts very relevant point back to you. I stand by all my points. Why should I be described as a one eyed nationalist and you not a one eyed unionist? Isn't it better to keep away from insults and stick to debating the points?

As to the first thing. I simply pointed out that Scotland had been campaigning for devolution for about the last century. That is true – not propaganda! Sometimes it was less to the fore but sometimes it was very much to the fore. For instance just a few years after the end of WWII an estimated 2 million signatures were collected on the Scottish Covenant calling for a devolved body. Even if the figures are exaggerated it is clear that there was a massive call for it – which Westminster simply ignored. Are you really suggesting that if a comparable 20 million signatures were collected in England for an English parliament that it would not be quickly delivered? Sheer demographics ensure that it would be. Blue clicky at bottom gives BBC link though I have cut and pasted the relevant paragraph. Though you only need to read any modern Scottish history book!

"In 1947 a Scottish Convention was formed with the hope of securing a parliament for Scotland along non-party lines. Two years later, using the idea of the Presbyterian 'solemn league and covenant', it drew up the Scottish Covenant, which was eventually signed by two million people. However, it made little impact as all the Westminster parties still kept devolution off the main parliamentary agenda leaving the Covenant movement with nowhere to go."

a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/devolution/scotland/briefing/c20scot.shtml">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/devolution/scotland/briefing/c20scot.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 07:16 PM

As to the influence bit again I point out that the system is flawed however in reality the Scottish votes have only been a theoretical imbalance in favour of any UK gvt making no difference to actual results in all but a couple of occasions at most and it follows on from existing practice which was already in place re Northern Ireland members. Whilst a unionist Labour Scottish gvt passed over 60 devolved issues to its Labour partners at Westminster through the Sewel Motions letting all UK MPs, and only UK MPs, vote on Scottish issues which were actually supposed to be devolved matters.

As to the funding well sorry but if you stay away from Tory rags and actually look at the official figures you'll see that when Scotland's natural resources are taken into account we more than pay our way and have consistently done so for decades. The figures are not massive now but they were enormous in the 1980s. The detailed figures are published annually in the GERS report which can be easily found on the Scottish gvt website. I've put up a blue clicky from the BBC site showing how Scotland's economic position stands. Public spending is £12,100 per person which is £1200 more than the UK as a whole – however GDP of £26,424 per person which is over £4000 more than the UK as a whole is. Likewise I have attached a blue clicky from the Institute of Fiscal Studies and again here is a cut and paste – and I have deliberately kept away from Nationalist publications here


"Over recent years, tax revenues from the North Sea, if allocated on a geographic basis, would have slightly more than paid for the additional public spending per head that currently occurs in Scotland relative to the UK as a whole"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24866266

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 07:20 PM

http://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn135.pdf


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now as to the oil is running out well sorry but for one thing we've heard it all before and for a second thing the demise of North Sea oil is much disputed. But either way independent or part of the UK it would hit Scotland if it did dry up. For years we've had moaning from English Tories about spending in Scotland and there is already calls for a scrapping of Barnett and reduction in the level of Scottish spending compared with England. What has held the wolves off has been the strength of the SNP in Scotland, the threat of a referendum, and the fact that we do actually more than pay our way! I for one don't believe for one moment that Scottish spending would be safeguarded should we not pay our way and I wouldn't expect it to be. Sorry but if North Sea oil revenue went through the floor then Scotland would be hit part of the UK or not!

Sorry don't mean to multi post but couldn't get this to go as one big post

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 04:47 AM

Yes, Allan, obtaining facts before comment is the best way to go. I remember when the film Braveheart came out, everybody I met (I live in London) were experts in 13/14th century Scottish history. Now they are all economic experts.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 06:02 AM

Have just had an email from my sister inviting me 'up there' in August! We're going to stay in her daughter's Edinburgh flat for 3 nights and poss see some of the Festival, then off to her village near Perth. She's a bit of a gourmet and we'll be eating out at some superb places. Sadly I can't do steep mountain walks any more, but we'll have a good time. Direct flights from Norwich to Edinburgh. What could be easier?
Yippeeeeeee!!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 08:31 AM

Allan and Jim

Having never seen Braveheart nor tried to understand the economic model of tourist tartan, I just wish to add something that is nothing to do with Scotland. Let me tell you something about England.

BP are buying up land alongside the old Tyneside shipyards. I doubt they will try doing anything with it just yet and in September may even put it back on the market.

Just thought I'd mention it.

I don't own any properties in Aberdeen myself, but there may be an outside chance that if reason goes out of the window later this year, some nice sturdy granite properties may come down to a reasonable price.