Patriotism

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 07:44 PM

I see no discussion here as in a forum. All i see is personal putdowns like a bunch of highschool kids trying to get one up oneach other.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 08:17 PM

Yeah, well, your one and only other contribution to the thread apart from this was virtually incomprehensible. You have three choices: (a) contribute; (b) whinge; (c) don't read it. Nighty night.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:03 AM

Well, Don..after reading your post, it would seem that the bankers are more of a problem than Ayn Rand...As stipulated by the Banking Act of 1935, the President appoints the seven members of the Board of Governors; they must then be confirmed by the Senate and serve for 14 years, and those guys are voted upon....one to be confirmed

So who is serving who? The bankers PRIMARY concern is their banks..Oh yeah, I didn't want it to slip by that the Federal Reserve is NOT a federal entity....it is a consortium, made up from private bankers ...and don't you think that the federal government has to cater to the Fed's policies, who, after all, control the money supply???..and what do they do??... they 'print'(or digitize) more fiat money, while an out of control spending spree has bankrupt the country...and, of course, the Fed CHARGES interest for their 'services' of printing all that fiat (read: worthless, unsecured) money.
So who's hustling who?...and then you want to blame Ayn Rand's novels????.....She's been dead and gone for a long time.

Oh well...

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:50 AM

Stilly River Sage: "No, not when you throw shit against the wall to see who salutes, Gust. Mixed metaphors are here simply to illustrate your brand of discourse. Slippery and inconclusive, always good for an argument.
Bill Summary & Status, 109th Congress (2005 - 2006) H.R.3199(Which is a link)..............

However, Joe Biden introduced this, which is the core of the 'Patriot Act"


Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995


Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995, US Senate bills S.390 and S.761.[1] Senator Joe Biden introduced the bill on behalf of the Clinton Administration on Feb. 10, 1995.[2][3] The bill was co sponsored by Senators Alfonse D'Amato, Dianne Feinstein, Robert J. Kerrey, Herb Kohl, Jon Kyl, Barbara A. Mikulski and Arlen Specter.[4] Representative Chuck Schumer sponsored the bill (H.R. 896) in the US House of Representatives.[3] Following closely on the heels of Executive Order 12947, prohibiting transactions with terrorists, President Clinton described the bill as a "comprehensive effort to strengthen the ability of the United States to deter terrorist acts and punish those who aid or abet any international terrorist activity in the United States" and requested "the prompt and favorable consideration of this legislative proposal by the Congress".[5]


It contained the following seven provisions:[6]

Title I: Substantive Criminal Law Enhancements

Title II: Immigration Law Improvements

Title III: Controls Over Terrorist Fund-Raising

Title IV: Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives

Title V: Nuclear Materials

Title VI: Procedural and Technical Corrections and Improvements

Title VII: Antiterrorism Assistance

According to the summary by President Clinton, the bill was intended to establish federal criminal jurisdiction over acts of international terrorism.[5] Civil liberty advocacy groups opposed the bill on the grounds that it would violate fundamental civil liberties, including the right to confront one's accuser.[3] Another source of opposition was the Government's ability to use evidence from secret sources in deportation proceedings for suspected terrorists.[3] During the debate over the Patriot Act of 2001 then Senator Joe Biden compared this bill to its 2001 counterpart stating "I drafted a terrorism bill after the Oklahoma City bombing. And the bill John Ashcroft sent up was my bill."[7]

Nice try, Stilly!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 02:15 AM

Goofballupagus doesn't have a clue!

"Who is John Galt?"

If you sort out the verbiage, John Galt (the hero of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, along with his small coterie of disciples) is no less than Nietzsche's Übermensch, the Superman that Adolf Hitler had in mind when he first made his move into politics in Germany and became Chancellor in 1933. And we know well THAT worked out!

The similarities between the views of Ayn Rand and her cast of "heroes" and Nietzche and his hypothetical "Superman" are just too clear to be missed by anyone paying attention.

Ayn Rand is very much the darling of the Libertarian Party (note: not Liberal Party). In fact, the Libertarian Party was initially formed by a group of people who had attended the twenty lecture series of lectures by Nathaniel Brandon on the "Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand."

Along with this, she is pretty much the patron saint of the Tea Party.

Her ideas could become the working plan for this country's future!

That's where we're going if we are not damned careful! Germany—in fact, Europe in general, along with the U. S.—had a few problems with advocates of ideas like those in the Thirties and early Forties….

Here it is in a nutshell:    Clicky.

Note the final sentence: "Unregulated capitalism is a superlatively moral system."

Oh?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 02:35 AM

Let's stop the running battle across threads, folks. The personal insults and mud slinging are what drive people away. Didn't your mothers ever tell you that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all?

SRS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:24 AM

She also might have said never keep quiet and not stand up to the sods.

If people didn't say "you are wrong, that is unacceptable," then women wouldn't have the vote, slavery and imperialism would be the norm, gay people would be second class citizens and free speech would be a luxury.

Do you really think it right to turn the other cheek when the most outrageous comments spew from the keyboards of disturbed people? As Steve said, you can ignore it. But for me, there isn't any point in having the BS section if it is just a mouthpiece for cut and paste crap with nobody laughing at it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:14 AM

The thing is, just because you are angry and justifiably so, is no reason to lose your rag. Getting cross just wastes energy that could be used more effectively. In fact it's a way of strengthening your opponent.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:47 AM

But on the basis you can't educate pork, so why bother trying, it is also cathartic.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:26 AM

The point is Mr McGrath, that personal abuse is becoming acceptable on this forum, multiple personas are being used by trolls to "wind people up"......The people who use these tactics, like Ian and his friends are known to admin yet they are allowed to curse and abuse those with whom they disagree on various issues.

It would be easy for any of us to adopt these tactics, it would save the time and energy spent on researching and presenting verified facts on the issues under discussion......but the purpose of the forum would be defeated.
Ian may get some sort of pleasure from responding in the way that he does, but people who wish to put a serious point are often driven away.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 09:32 AM

But you do adopt those tactics. You called me an idiot a couple of days ago.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,sawzaw
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 10:28 AM

(a) contribute:

I see no discussion here. Just personal putdowns.
So what is patriotism? is it good or bad and why?

I don't see anything personal about it.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 10:34 AM

He insults and abuses whole sections of society.

I reserve my vitriol for criminal scum like him. He lowers Mudcat to the gutter by his presence. If Mudcat was hosted in The UK or if the moderators here thought that bigotry and homophobia wasn't free speech, his account would have been closed a long time ago. As it is, his incitement to hatred, spreading lies about sections of society and suggesting rounding them up is a crime where he lives. He is a British subject and subject to equality laws designed to prevent people being abused by coming across hatred agaisnt them for no reason whatsoever. I am proud to have alerted Mudcat to my ISP.

Back in your hole, pathetic worm. You were trying to tell us women drinking are asking to be raped in an adjacent thread, so it isn't just homophobia is it? Misogyny too. Do you have anyone at all who loves you? You seem to be missing something, all that twisted hatred.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 11:42 AM

""Anger was washed away in the river along with any obligation.""
― Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 11:54 AM

Don Firth should get a C+ for his book report.

..but don't you think that FIRST you should at least reply to MY comments, that were an answer to your question....that you are trying to dodge???

So let me refresh your question, to me...and you can rebut...fair enough??

Don Firth: "...but it takes a little more effort to explain you opinion of what it is they lied about, why you think it's a lie, and what you believe the real facts are."

So here is a PARTIAL list:

Shovel ready jobs

Benghazi, YouTube video was the cause...blah blah..even in front of the U.N..and two weeks after everyone KNEW better!....and NO mention that the Benghazi office was selling arms to Syria...under the table.

"If you like your health plan...and doctor you can keep them, (shortened version).

Not a tax (Obamacare), so they falsely promoted....until the Supreme Court ruled that it was..

People would save $2500 a year under that 'plan'....their premiums AND deductibles went significantly higher!!

Jeff Immelt, fgormer head of G.E. (MSNBC), job czar, with $500 million to start jobs for the American worker, but somehow he did....in CHINA!..No wonder Bill D watches MSNBC, for his insights!...Ya' think that MSNBC is unbiased??????...

Immigration reform, in his FIRST YEAR....when he could have EASILY done it, with both Houses of Congress, in a 'Democratic' majority..

Fast and Furious...Let's run guns to the cartels....same song and dance as Iran/Contra...

IRS, just like Nixon did..and Obama even joked about it!

Hope and Change????...Hope for WHAT??..and CHANGE to WHAT???..Try 'Bait and Switch'!!

Not that these are particularly SMALL things....and there are a lot more! But that should get you started....but you won't...You'll just come back with some meaningless drivel, slurring and slamming, those who point that out to you..with NO HONEST, or intelligent rebuttal!

Now if you can't reply, WITHOUT your USUAL semi-literate diatribes, name calling attacks, then don't...it is only MORE evidence that you have NOTHING!!...(ever heard THAT before?????)"

...........

I re-iterate, which is absolutely true, and you did it, as per aforementioned:

"You'll just come back with some meaningless drivel, slurring and slamming, those who point that out to you..with NO HONEST, or intelligent rebuttal!"

Give 'er a whirl!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:44 PM

Steve, I called you an idiot, not to abuse you. but to explain why you were unable to comprehend what I had stated clearly in a previous post.

Now "Team Musket", of which you may be a member are tacticians of sorts, but they are almost certainly "idiots" in their adherence to a mythological faith position applied to modern civil society, under the control of a corporate capitalist economic system.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:57 PM

"" I called you an idiot, not to abuse you. but to explain why you were unable to comprehend what I had stated clearly in a previous post.""

I guess anyone could justify just about any type of "name calling" under that odd, goosey-gander kind of reasoning.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:05 PM

The important points made are being obscured by the shit that people throw at each other.

What the hell is the use...?

Don (totally disgusted) Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:09 PM

AND--the dung-flinging gets threads with posts containing important information closed. Not good!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:16 PM

The law is a mythological faith?

I haven't heard that one outside forensic psychiatry... One way of achieving an equitable equality in society is to stop seeing others as second class. Although of course, I doubt any person, gay or straight could or would look up to akenaton.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:49 PM

I called you an idiot, not to abuse you. but to explain why you were unable to comprehend what I had stated clearly in a previous post.

And I called you a homophobe and a misogynist, not to abuse you, but because it's demonstrably true.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 07:31 PM

I see no discussion here. Just personal putdowns.

Then you must be blind. I posted discussion points on the 17th at 8.02pm, on the 18th at 6.55pm, and on the 19th at 6.08am. Many other people have posted discussion points to this thread. Your attitude is offensive and silly (though I never take offence myself). Your only post of substance in this thread was almost incomprehensible. Apart from that you simply whinge. How may we help you?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:46 PM

My post above, at 22 Nov 14 - 02:15 AM, (including the link) contains too much important information to be buried in the flurry of manure-slinging going on in this thread. Anybody interested in the future of this country, not to mention the world at large, needs to heed what is said there.

GfS, ever the smart-ass, gives me a C+ for my "book report" on a couple of pieces of fiction, ignoring the fact that I also talked about a couple of nonfiction books by the same author. Novels can promulgate ideas and many do. And these novels are definitely not "light reading." They are written with the idea of getting the author's ideas out there into the real world.

And the fact that she has succeeded in her efforts is demonstrated by the fact that her novels—and her non-fiction—spawned a popular lecture series, several more non-fiction books written by others, and two political parties—one of which has grown into the third largest political party in the United States—the Libertarian Party, and the somewhat looser-knit but more gung-ho "Tea Party."

Under the system advocated in these "novels", subsequent works of non-fiction, and the platforms of the political parties these writings have spawned, government would not have the power to regulate business interests, nor to tax them. And there would be NO Social Security, Medicare, or social "safety net" such as welfare programs, unemployment insurance, none of that.

This is nothing less than Fascism, in which the corporations and the wealthy ARE the government!!

Ignore at your peril! Ignore at everybody's peril!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 12:21 AM

Are you going to respond to the questions I answered you, and offer 'your take'???

..and BTW, your 'biggest problem' is, you THINK Obama is a socialist!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 12:49 AM

Get serious, Goofup, if that's even possible for you. Read what I just wrote, and my other post at 22 Nov 14 - 02:15 AM (complete with the link), and either make a serious response, or don't waste everybody's time and internet bandwidth with snotty remarks and frivolous nit-picking.

I'm not going to waste time and effort responding to your litany of the administration's alleged lies, gleaned from your favorite Right Wing websites. In short, I'm fed up with you!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 04:27 AM

Thats the problem with reading posts across continents. The term "socialist" is seen as a term of abuse in Dumbfuckistan, whilst here it describes everything from left wing to liberal democracy.

And most people would be proud of their socialism...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw completist
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:01 AM

You left out akenaton. He's a socialist too.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:08 AM

Ok, and national socialists...

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 04:00 PM

Researchers find references to Jesus 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 06:16 PM

In the same documents as love spells, I notice.

I refer the honourable gentleman to previous posts.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 06:53 PM

Well, we don't really know where it will lead, now do we -unless we are "crystal ball gazers", that is. You did say something akin to "no" evidence. ;)

Those who go romping and harping about, begging for evidence, without first qualifying it, have earned few credits to be that "fussy" - after the fact. Tisk, tisk¿

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 07:42 PM

SRS gave you lot a warning a week ago and was disregarded.
For many years in the 1960s through 80s, some weirdo used to haunt London's Oxford Street with a sandwich-board protesting about flatulence: less sitting, fewer beans was the gist of it. His spiritual heir similarly haunts the Royal Courts of Justice these days with a poster concerned with a written constitution.
They have much in common with these debates. It's not even worth stopping past as a matter of idle curiosity to see how lunatic the debate has become, because you're neither objectively engaging, humourously entertaining nor yet invectively innovative. You just chase your tails in a pointless circle, as you know certain rednecks will pursue one line and nothing can or will change that.
It leaves me disillusioned, because if we're that poor in communicating here, how much worse must we be in performance? Which is pretty much what SRS was saying - I have a wall which will be more usefully decorated by my bashing my head against it than continuing these debates.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:01 PM

""I have a wall which will be more usefully decorated by my bashing my head against it than continuing these debates.""

Surely you must find something more useful and less personally distructive to do. If noy, have you ruled out subconscious death wish?

I suspect few folks take internet interactions quite that seriously (even srs) . It seems important that you either strive to "get a grip", on reality-life beyond some predictable Mudcat BS-bs debates, (aka internet interaction), or disconnect. I submit that all participants dont take it all that seriously, beyond the somewhat- anon posting vaneer.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:09 PM

"The personal insults and mud slinging are what drive people away. Didn't your mothers ever tell you that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all?"

Do you really want everybody to be nice to the Neo Nazis and Self obsessed Repugnicans who are trying to destroy the USA?

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:14 PM

"The point is Mr McGrath, that personal abuse is becoming acceptable on this forum,"

As would the unacceptable views of bigots, racists and homophobes on this forum Mr Pharaoh, were they NOT challenged by those with a greater degree of humanity!

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 14 - 08:14 PM

My impression of Mudcat bs is reflected in this cartoon.


wolf and sheepdog 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 04:15 AM

First Froth: "I'm not going to waste time and effort responding to your litany of the administration's alleged lies, gleaned from your favorite Right Wing websites. In short, I'm fed up with you!"

First of all, I didn't get them from 'Right Wing websites'...it's all over the spectrum of 'news' sources...AND..what a cowardly and hypocritical way to avoid answering, just because you have NO answer, that couldn't be blown out of the water INSTANTLY!

You're 'fed up'!!..What a joke!
You're busted!

GfS

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 12:47 PM

Ah, I see "Team Musket" are reforming.......a bit sad really.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 01:40 PM

Goofus, I note that you don't have any kind of intelligent response to my comments about Ayn Rand and the substantial political influence her writings are having on current politics. Never heard of her, right?

You get downright boring as you yap the same old thing over and over again. You'd be better off letting the adults discuss things and turn your attention back to writing and playing elevator music.

So, like with my neighbor's yappy little Yorkshire terrier when he gets really and incoherently obnoxious, I hereby scoop you up and throw you back over the hedge into the rhododendron bush.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 02:08 PM

"We will not tolerate comments from the "lurkers" peanut gallery," chimed a voice of reason.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 02:18 PM

"The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." Louis D. Brandeis 

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 03:46 PM

Dear moderators.

It doesn't count if he is not a person with rights. The fact that Akenaton is allowed to spread homophobic bigotry without being deleted is a stain on the reputation of Mudcat and Max should hang his head in shame for running a hate website.

If he can say gay people should be rounded up and forced to undergo invasive medical procedures, and can say with impunity that my husband and I are promiscuous because we are gay, then there is no moderation.

So no reason to delete my questioning his sexual habits. See how he likes it, the disgusting pervert.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 06:16 PM

This was, and to a lesser extent still is, a very good little forum.
I have always been of the opinion that ALL subjects are up for debate and as most of us are adults we should be able to debate those subjects reasonably.
This section of the forum's purpose is to provide a platform for all views to be heard, but if personal abuse and the use of obscenities, such as we see from "Team Musket", are allowed to continue no one will wish to discuss anything.


Of course this is the tactic, intimidation, just like the bowler who serves up "bouncers".
Fortunately, the mods are beginning to tire of the endless dumbing down and the offensive posts are becoming fewer, but perhaps the damage has been done.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Nov 14 - 07:01 PM

   Patriotism, though it is based upon the natural and indeed instinctive love of home, has been elevated in the modern world into an unparalleled congeries of imbecilities. What it demands of the individual citizen, as a practical matter, is that he yield not only his judgement but also his property and even his life to whatever gang of scheming politicians happen to be in power. The essence of his virtue as a patriot is that he ask no questions, once the band is set to playing.

Patriotism: A variety of hallucination which, if it seized a bacteriologist in his laboratory, would cause him to report the streptococus purogenes to be as large as a Newfoundland dog, as intelligent as Socrates, as beautiful as Mont Blanc, and as respectable as a Yale professor.

--- H. L. Mencken

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Musket
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 03:10 AM

All subjects eh? So let's discuss Seaham Cemetery's allegation that you are cruel to greyhounds. After all, the BBC documentary about the seedy side of greyhound racing seems to condemn most trainers.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:20 AM

Doctor Seaham does not know me, or anything about how I treat my dogs.
I live many hundreds of miles from the town of Seaham where the offences occurred a decade ago.

The material which I furnished to my learned friend the QC, contains my request to Doctor Seaham to provide any tiny piece of evidence which could in any way link me to these offences....despite numerous requests, he has never offered up any evidence at all.
According to my friend it is a clear case of libel.

I also passed on your comment that it "seemed very unlikely" that his allegations were true, but it seems you have altered your opinion?
My friend will be made aware of this, unless of course you wish to clarify.

I take these lies with the utmost seriousness as I have numerous contacts in the racing world and propagation of such untruths could have a detrimental effect on my position.

The new internet trolling regulations make provision for this situation.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 04:28 AM

To anyone who may be wondering about this "thread drift", it is simply another example of "Team Musket" intimidation tactics, in the same vein as cursing and insulting, but much more dangerous to the proponents.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 05:35 AM

Musket has tried to make trouble for Mudcat by making a scurrilous complaint to the authorities about the site.
That should have made him unwelcome on the site he so hates, but the tolerance of Max and helpers is greater than Musket deserves.

I believe that Musket himself wrote the disgraceful lying Seaham posts smearing Akenaton.
I also believe that his frequent resort to obscene abuse in place of debate inhibits decent folk from participating.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 10:00 AM

Nobody cares what you "believe". You also believe that the earth is 6000 years old.

Q.E.D.

Subject: RE: Patriotism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 14 - 10:24 AM

You are wrong about me Greg.
I am quite sure that the Earth is over 4 billion years old.

I am as entitled to express my views as you are Greg.
Anything else?