Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 06:54 AM

Ha! I see the clicky thing was about Professor Hutton, not the Morris Ring. But what I still think it's brilliant.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 08:40 AM

I guess this thread hs run it's course since most of us cannot find the time to read all the previous posts.

If my point has made I apologise:

Quotes from earlier threads on the subject:

Derek went on to add in the same thread:

'Having looked into blacking up for the EDS feature that Ruth Archer has kindly quoted from, there is undoubtedly an influence on English folk culture from minstrelsy. Bacup may be one, Padstow mummers may be another, the 20th century traditional Border morris which has been copied by revival sides might be another.
The question is ...has the blacking up transcended its origin and now have a life of its own?
Does this practice offend sectors of our society? (And I don't mean just the black members of our society ... white people might also be offended).
And if so, are we prepared to do anything about it?'


Another quote from the same thread, from Dave Hunt:

'A version of the 'A' part of the tune is also used for the tune known as 'Clee Hill' as collected from Dennis Crowther who is from that area, which is not far from Ludlow in South Shropshire. The tune was used by the morris/molly dancers from Clee Hill area and in 'pre-PC' days was known as 'The niggerin' tune' as the dancers went out with blacked-up faces and called it 'Goin' out a-niggerin' The use of the term molly instead of morris,was common in Shropshire and I have met people who remembers 'Going out molly-dancing' in East Shropshire in the 1930s-40s '

And something else that I said later on in the same thread:

'Finally, a few people have said that it would be interesting to hear from a black person what they feel about all of this. Well, the article from EDS that I quoted earlier interviewed several people about the practice, including a dance caller named Nigel Hogg. This is what he had to say:

"I have watched many different dance groups around the country, and on certain occasions I have seen groups black up to perform. As a mixed race man I do find this tradition offensive because I see it as a parody mocking people of colour. I would imagine that the people who perform these dances are not racists, and on some levels the people involved have not even though about the implications these dances might have to people of colour." '

Part of the problem is the almost total disregard in morris circles for historical and academic evidence.

The evidence seems quite clearly to link blackface in Border Morris to Minstrelsy but the people involved don't acknowledge this - please tell us why. It's a clever sidestep to point to backface in other much older folk activities - although the evidence for blackface in pre minstrelsy morris almost non existent.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 11:43 AM

Shrewsbury FF are not trying to ban blackface, simply saying they won't have it at their festival.

If Border sides want to black-up that is fine by me. It is equally fine by me if some festival organisers choose not to have them.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 01:09 PM

Intrestin point Morris-ey, would you be fine with you if some of them Border dancers acknowledged their roots in Minstrelsy?

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 04:24 PM

Undoubtedly many of our traditions we like to think of as going back many centuries in fact are linked to minstrelsy. Some of the tunes used are indeed minstrel tunes and in my own part of the world in the early years of the last century the N word was used freely, but not in a derogatory way. Bacup has been mentioned.

To add a little to the historical context not fully explained by Hutton, minstrel-type blacking up by performers goes back to the late 18th century (solo artistes only). The main thrust in Britain came in about 1840 when following their enormous success in America the first troupes came over here and were equally an enormous success. (Think The Beatles) Their tunes and performances were understandably immediately incorporated into our existing traditions.

This is not to say blacking up did not predate this. The principal effect was disguise and the quickest/cheapest way to effect this was soot or burnt cork or similar.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 04:45 PM

The main thrust in Britain came in about 1840 when following their enormous success in America the first troupes came over here and were equally an enormous success. (Think The Beatles)

Apologies Steve if I'm being a bit dim, but I don't really understand The Beatles reference. Presumably you're thinking of the '64 'American Invasion' and their re-exporting Black American music?

I can't get the analogy though. But I'm really tired this evening...

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 04:56 PM

Does this mean the band 'All Blacked Up' will be banned too ?

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,In good company
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 06:02 PM

I feel I am reasonably well qualified to comment. I have danced black face. I have performed a mummers play in black face. As the son of an east European immigrant I have been the recipient of racist abuse which was part of the reason that my family changed our surname. Things do and should move on. When I suffered said abuse it was in a backwater Northern town in the 1950s. Never happened after 1964 when I attended senior school with a different set of people who did not know my original surname. In the light of recent news I am both relieved and angry that my surname is no longer east European and even more so that my sons and grandsons will never be called names, spat at, or worse for having a foreign surname or speaking a different language.

Sorry for the apparent drift but now you know part of my story I can get back to the thread. I never had a concept of colour being a definition of someones character. When, in those heady days of Bernard Manning and co, jokes were made based on racial stereotypes I never really understood them. When, in the 1980s and 1990s I danced and acted in black face it never dawned on me that some may see it as offensive and I argued strongly, using all the previous points, that black face was completely innocuous. However, it was pointed out, possibly on here, that it may be seen as parody and stereotype and could therefore be regarded as offensive. This planted the seed in my mind.

Some time later, possibly early 2000s, I had been away to the West Indies and returned with souvenir Rasta hat and mini steel drum with every intention of using both at the folk club one night. Well, the night came and, for the first time ever, a black man came into the club. The hat and drum stayed firmly in my bag and from that day on I have not blacked up. I have no idea if the black man would have been offended or not. The point was, if I did NOT do it, there was no chance whatsoever of him being offended. Apart from by my poor singing of course.

Sorry to ramble on so I suppose I should get to the point really. The type of racist thugs that beat a poor Polish man to death because they believe everyone else dislikes immigration could happily latch on to an excuse to take the piss out of black people by masking it (pun intended) as tradition. All I ask is, why risk it when there are many perfectly good alternatives?

Thanks for listening.

Dave

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 07:03 PM

"Intrestin point Morris-ey, would you be fine with you if some of them Border dancers acknowledged their roots in Minstrelsy?"

Les, I doubt many Border sides would know what Minstrelsy is let alone base their blackface on it.

If, however some black up for that reason, then I would be happy if they acknowledged it. That is not to say I would approve.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 16 - 08:58 PM

"I had been away to the West Indies and returned with souvenir Rasta hat and mini steel drum with every intention of using both at the folk club one night. Well, the night came and, for the first time ever, a black man came into the club. The hat and drum stayed firmly in my bag and from that day on I have not blacked up. I have no idea if the black man would have been offended or not. The point was, if I did NOT do it, there was no chance whatsoever of him being offended."

Well said!

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 02:50 AM

No Ed,
The first troupes of Ethiopian Serenaders came over about 1840 and were immediately a massive hit to the same extent that the Beatles were in the 1960s. They continued to come over for at least the next 20 years or so until we had formed our own very successful minstrel troupes, many of them with Americans like Pony Moore who settled here. The Beatles obviously were a big hit here in the 1960s and then cracked America. The minstrel troupes were a big hit in America and also over here not long after.

This is well documented in many books on the subject. I have copies of some of the original sheet music.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 03:41 AM

Logically if it not acceptable to use brown or black, it must no longer be acceptable for black or brown dancers or guisers to use white? so is it acceptable to use yellow? would it offend yellow skinned people? so if people want to disguse them selves and they are pink or white they must only use green or blue, black or brown guisers must also use green or blue?
we had better all start getting shares in Woad making companies.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 04:11 AM

Their are no 'yellow skinned people' GSS. Please read what Dave wrote above it's the best post on the racist nature of this issue I have ever read.

As for the historical issue I repeat the question - will Border Morris acknowledge the historical link to Minstrelsy? If not why not?

"Les, I doubt many Border sides would know what Minstrelsy is let alone base their blackface on it."

They seem quite well versed in the link with the 'disguise' hypothesis and so to much earlier folk Art events. Where did they, and other defenders, get that from whilst being totally unfamiliar with the much more obvious evidence of the link to Minstrelsy.

Thanks very much to Dave above - well evidenced, argued and written.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,In good company
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 04:44 AM

Thank you Les. Pity I never made it to the Beech prior to emigrating to Yorkshire. :-) One day perhaps...

One thing I failed to note in my post is that this is the first time SFF has run after the massive increase in race hate crime following the EU vote. I am not trying to ban or even censure anything else but I would say well done to them for recognising that there could be a related issue and removing any excuse that the racists may use as justification.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 05:17 AM

Can we please stop using the term "blackface"? This has a specific meaning to describe a form of theatrical makeup used by non-Black performers to represent a black person, and as a shorthand for minstrelsy. I have never seen a morris dancer in blackface.

The fact is, we don't know the origins of blacking-up in English folk traditions. There is some sparse evidence that it pre-dates the minstrel craze. However minstrelsy was such a widespread and long-lasting phenomenon that it would be remarkable if it had not had some influence on morris and other customs. Nevertheless, Cotswold morris did not adopt blacking-up, although a few minstrel tunes came into the repertoire. A possible explanation is that minstrelsy was most easily tacked onto those customs, such as Border morris, which already had a tradition of blacking up, rather than minstrelsy being the cause of it.

What we seem to have is a long-established custom of blacking up for reasons of disguise, which for a period of time also adopted other elements from popular culture which today we regard as racist. However that ended 60 or 70 years ago, and certainly played no part in the modern revival which itself is now several decades old. I wonder why we are now putting such an emphasis on this particular aspect, when the real question is how we can maintain the tradition in today's society where some may perceive it as being racist (although even FRESh seems to agree it is not)

Personally, I don't think other colours or patterns have quite the dramatic impact of black, neither are they quite as effective as a disguise. I think it would be regrettable if blacking up were to be lost, although I recognise that in today's multicultural society, and especially one where people are quick to form opinions without bothering to understand the reasons, it is probably inevitable. What I find disappointing is that a prominent folk festival and even the EFDSS are not taking a more nuanced approach to explain and defend the tradition. By not doing so they are simply reinforcing the incorrect assumption that it is racist.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 05:50 AM

Thanks Howard, do you accept that the most significant effect on Border was Minstrelsy? I repeat the question - will Border Morris acknowledge the historical link to Minstrelsy? If not why not?

"A possible explanation is that minstrelsy was most easily tacked onto those customs, such as Border morris, which already had a tradition of blacking up, rather than minstrelsy being the cause of it."

Intrestin point, do you have the source of the evidence for blacking up in Border before the days of Minstrelsy?

"and especially one where people are quick to form opinions without bothering to understand the reasons"

I suggest the Morris community are just a little guilty of this don't you?

The EFDSS are staging a conference to explore the history of Morris Dancing and in the rigorous practice of academia the have issued a " Call for papers". This may through some light on something or other although if morris websites are anything to go by historical evidence is the last thing they will find.

Sorry you missed us Dave - still in the dulcimer every Tuesday - chucked out of the Beech some years ago.
Best wishes

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,In good company
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 05:59 AM

Point taken, Howard. I was just continuing the earlier usage but I shall use the term blacked up in this context from now on.

However, I think that a lot of people may be missing the point I, and others, are trying to make. Whether it is in fact racist or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that some people will see it as racist and, for their own purposes, they will use the tradition to make a racist statement. Going back to Vic's point about the tradition being hijacked a certain organisation, including someone posting on here, to push a racist agenda is very important and now that race hate seems to be on the increase it is even more so.


Anyone removing an excuse for racist thugs to press their agenda is, to my mind, doing a good thing.

D

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 06:09 AM

"a few of them see it as an opportunity to express contempt for racial minorities.."
I frankly just don't believe this. We've been to no end of Morris festivals over the years, in many places, and must have watched dozens and dozens of different blacked-up sides, both Border and Molly. My husband always tries to get photos of himself, posed with groups of various types of Morris, for his collection. No-one has ever edged away, been frosty, looked askance or uttered anything racist or discouraging.
On the contrary, they have hugged him, laughed with him, plonked their hats on his head for the photos, and invited him to dance so I can take some pictures. Many now recognise him from previous visits (he always wears his Ivorian costume)
I feel most indignant on their behalf that anyone could suggest there is racism among blacked-up sides. Morris folk are the most friendly, open and charming people you could ever meet.


Hear, hear .. :-) x

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,Mark Stevens
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 06:31 AM

" began a campaign by an extreme right wing British political party to infiltrate the folk song and dance scene and subvert our traditional music and song and claim our cultural heritage as a tool of their vile and warped processes. "

It wasn't like that at all, Vic Smith. It was merely spreading out to a wider audience and EDUCATING some of our disenfranchised indigenous British citizens that were unaware of their roots, and tradition; the value of their own culture, instead of mere imported, and other mass media 'entertainments' .

Folk music (and it's enthusiasts) and Morris dancing have long been the butt of crass jokes, as portrayed in the common Media. I can see their point of view, with a Folk following usually identified by it's typical stereotypes. I do not class myself as a Folkie.

Or maybe Shrewsbury FF stance will bring about a new breed a FRESh-faced[sic] stylee, and the re-emergence of; Cotswold dancing ??

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 06:59 AM

Three points arising from some of the interesting contributions to this thread. -

1] 1840 and the first visit of the Ethiopian Serenaders is quite significant date. Let's look at a few significant events before that -
* 1792 Burns song/poem The Slave's Lament was published and had a huge impact on thinking. That Africans had the same feelings, fears, sense of loss etc. was revolutionary at that time. Burns was seen as the friend of humanity and an enemy of injustice or oppression and part of a growing movement particularly strong amongst Quakers and some other non-conformist churches
* 1807, the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act although Wilberforce had been campaigning about this for decades and first introduced an act in 1789 on the subject. His earlier efforts failed to get a majority.
* The next big step was in 1833 the Abolition of Slavery bill (in the British Empire) was passed - 3 days before Wilberforce died.

Great! British people had been in the forefront of Abolitionist thinking and action - but there was still a heavy residual guilt. Much of Britain's economy was still dependent on the existance of slavery. How many jobs existed because the the import of slave produced raw sugar, cotton etc. etc?
When the American minstrel shows came to the UK from 1840 with their message of the 'happy slave' it was just what the public needed to assuage this guilt. Decades ago I interviewed or spoke informally to many surviving old singers and musicians. Many of them remembered blacking up to sing in village concerts.

2] Some discussion has taken place about the existence of black faced dancers before the coming of Minstrelsy. 1840 could also be given as a date for the arrival of the popular press and photography in this country. Any social historian will tell you that any research to gain reliable information becomes much more difficult. As far as morris sides are concerned, it is difficult to establish just how widespread this was, never mind what music, costumes. dance figures were, never mind whether dancers blacked up or not.

3] This point is on a more personal level. As both a mummer and a morris man in my younger days, I have been challenged to think about things associated with it. Here are two questions that I asked myself.
What is your attitude towards black-faced dancers? Still fairly relaxed.
Would you ever black-up yourself? I never have and I never would.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 07:19 AM

It wasn't like that at all, Vic Smith. It was merely spreading out to a wider audience and EDUCATING some of our disenfranchised indigenous British citizens that were unaware of their roots, and tradition; the value of their own culture, instead of mere imported, and other mass media 'entertainments'.

Ah! Now, that must have been a point that I somehow missed... their mission was to spread information! They had a gently didactic programme of action!
I must say that methodology strikes me as something less the educative. When that particular form of fascism went into its own minor civil war, a lot more information came to light from their dissidents than merely their membership list. A lot more of it came my way. Would you like me share the instructions that were given to their appointed "attack dogs"? The discussions on the methods that these people were to use on those, including myself, who thought that the sort of "education" they were proposing was not beneficial to the folk scene?

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 07:20 AM

Bloody crazy, political corrrectness at it's most insane. Morris men blacking up as in this case has nothing at all to do with race! It was no surprise at all to me that the main spokesman of this barmy org is a typical upper class WHITE man. What on earth next, morrismen/women can't wear bells for fear it upsets campomologists! AAArrrrrgh

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 07:26 AM

Les, I can't speak for border morris. For myself, I accept that minstrelsy had some effect on morris but not that it was the "most significant" effect. If it had been, I think other traditions such as Cotswold would also have taken it up. My interpretation is that it was those traditions which already blacked up which added aspects from minstrelsy, but that it was not the reason for them blacking up, and that aspect of it died out many decades ago, as did minstrelsy itself. (I know people are fond of referring to the Black and White Minstrel Show, but this was an intentionally nostalgic programme and no more indicates a survival of minstrelsy into the 1960s than the Good Old Days did of music hall).

I came across some earlier references for one of the earlier discussions on this topic but I'm not going looking for them now.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 08:29 AM

Given the thread subject why has no-one linked to http://shrewsburyfolkfestival.co.uk/statement-re-decision-to-phase-out-morris-te

Or did I miss it in a clicky?

How about extending the banning things because racists have adopted them to include the flag of St George?

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,In good company
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 10:20 AM

Thanks for the link, Guest 01 Sep 16 - 08:29 AM. The festival statement makes perfect sense to me and shows no indication of the 'PC gone mad' that they are being accused of.

In answer to your question, the flag of St George cannot, in my opinion, be used to parody or ridicule anyone. As we all know St George himself is a mysterious figure of indefinite but probably middle-eastern origin who is the patron saint of many other countries and things than England. See this Wiki entry to confirm. It is a symbol, nothing more, while blacking up can be open to interpretation as parody.

We have, as ever, to be sensible with these things and where we draw the line. That it is a traditional pastime is, in my opinion, a poor argument. Bare knuckle fighting and bear baiting were once traditional pastimes and someone know where to draw the line then. Surely we are just as sensible as our own ancestors?

D.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 10:25 AM

It appears that using black on the face is not, in itself, the problem. That link from Shrewsbury Festival says that it will not book sides using "full face black make up", but is happy with "other forms of colour and disguise"

So presumably the festival has no problem with sides that apply black to only some parts of the face (rather like military camouflage), nor with sides that use black and one or more other colours.

Both these alternatives preserve the element of blacking, while avoiding any implied racial mimicry, stereotyping or disrespect.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,In good company
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 10:35 AM

By way of a little light relief I was reminded of Cumbawamba's response to having traditions hijacked. Have a listen. :-) Beats any response I could have made :-)

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 11:31 AM

these alternatives preserve the element of blacking, while avoiding any implied racial mimicry, stereotyping or disrespect.

Could I put in a mention for the superb Pig Dyke Molly? Firstly for the excellent and inventive quality of their dancing, then for the tight precision of their high quality musicians, the fine showmanship of any of their dance stands but also (and here is what is relevant to this thread) the thought and execution that goes into their costumes and face painting. This page from their website shows photos of their displays for 2016, all as they say, in "glorious black and white".

Surely this would met the Shrewsbury requirements (even if they have not already appeared there).

<><><><><><><>

A slightly more worrying aspect is that the Shrewsbury statement (linked to above) was brought about because -

the festival was accused of racial harassment and threatened with legal action by an organisation called FRESH

I would have thought that an accusation of "racial harassment" was putting it too high. The fear of 'legal action' seems to have been behind this Shropshire statement.
Did the organisation Fairness, Respect & Equality in Shropshire go to the police or the Institute of Race Relations with their concerns about what was happening at this folk festival or are we to regard this self-appointed body as the arbiters of what constitutes "racial harrasment"? Does anyone know the sequence of what happened?

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 12:01 PM

Border Morris dance some dances they have made up, to tunes that were almost certainly never used for morris and on instruments sometimes invented in the 20C. They wear costumes sometimes unrelated to the custom they claim to be reviving. But they hang on to the bit of tradition that has one foot in 19C music hall racism.

I don't think those who dance Border are racists. The question within the "Morris community" is are they respecting their own history and origins in completely ignoring the contribution made from Minstrelsy.

Best wishes

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Sep 16 - 01:10 PM

It might help if people had a read throgh this -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Morris

Interestingly, while looking for that, I also found this -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajji_Firuz

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 08:06 AM

Err.. Bell ringers, not campanologists. We call ourselves bell ringers.

Tsk

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 12:37 PM

if they want to black up parts of their anatomy and jump up and down with bells tightly leather strapped to their appendages
in the privacy of their own homes, that's up to them and their spouses...
consenting adults and all that...

But no matter what colour make up is applied, a pasty flabby white man is still a pasty flabby white man... 👴🏻

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: CupOfTea
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:31 PM

As a white, female, American who can't dance anything anymore, I have no dog in this fight. But as someone who grapples every day with how to interact in a multi-racial society with various age groups who are likely to have different takes on perceptions of race, I can sympathise with both those who are exasperated and those who are offended.

As a liberal, living in an agressively "socially aware" suburb I have rolled my eyes at suggestions that it is racist of me to think of characterizing any sector of the black populous as having a particular characteristic, unless it is an expression of praise. Thus:
"The black kids at Heights High whose pants show half their underpants make me want to tell them to pull their pants up"= oh bad, very bad
" I love the call and response type of singing that happens with hymns in black churches" = just fine on the PC scale

In the first case, this is seen as racist by some of the youth, but black moms of my generation are likely to chime in with "amen" What is considered offensive - or perhaps more accurately, what people feel free to say is offensive - evolves with generations. There are also people of all categories and ethnicities who excel at what I see as the Olympic level sport of taking umbrage. It sounds like this situation has a bit of both. I am willing to go the extra distance in trying to avoid that which divides us. Sometimes I feel self conscious and a bit goofy for doing it. Since having a conversation with a batch of church friends talking about white folk crossing the street in fear of a black guy, I consciously greet with eye contact, smile, hello.

Those who take umbrage where no insult is meant have often caused me to feel like I have to prove I'm not a racist. But this is on a par with the absurd lengths we have to go to show we're not a pedophile or abuser in order to work with children. You have to constantly be on guard and aren't supposed to hug the wee child weeping in front of you. (Diocese of Cleveland VIRTUS training)

It is a different century, and traditions evolve, and not always as we'd want them to, and some of the ones we wish could change, won't.

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:49 PM

"The black kids at Heights High whose pants show half their underpants make me want to tell them to pull their pants up"= absolutely bloody right, scruffy urchins.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 04:09 PM

Then as some here might affectionately observe, there is a 'tribal culture' of white old fogies/folkies whose trousers and pants are pulled up far too high and tight..

they could do with loosening their belts and braces just a bit..... 😜

.. let it all swing and breath...

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 01:33 AM

Or even breathe! Breath is what we breathe, pfr!

I have to say that I'm not fond of seeing saggy trousers displaying either arse-crack or dirty-looking shreddies. But, equally, I'm not a fan of tit-trousers either. On the waist is fine, AFAIC, and comfortable too.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 03:08 AM

bah.... bellocks to spolling and carrect grommar...!!! 🎓

Btw.. it's hilarious to see the usual sorts getting their knickers in a twist moaning about pc gone mad...



Our local cultural heritage is the west country carnival scene..

an over the top traditional folk custom celebrating popular culture of the here and now...???

I can't find any published statements regarding what is no longer acceptable for Carnival Float presentations..

or comment first hand, because I aint been arsed standing out in the winter cold wind and rain to watch it all drive past for several years

But a mainstay for many decades was pissed up young thug farmers blacking up as B&W minstrels, golliwogs, cannibals and zulus... 🙄

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 03:31 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,Senoufou
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 03:44 AM

Well, my husband got back safely from Africa on Thursday, and I explained this thread to him. He's a bit timid writing in English but has asked me to post that he is very sad that people should think a black person would mind border Morris dancers being blacked up. He says he adores the Morris dancing and over the years has had so many photos taken, and he would like to say 'please don't worry or get upset, because there is no racism in Morris dancing'.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: BobL
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 04:00 AM

"On the waist is fine, AFAIC"
Fine for those who, unlike myself, still have waists...

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 06:41 AM

A largely white organisation (FRESh) taking it on itself to speak for people who are capable of speaking for themselves (black people) seems rather paternalistic.

Paternalism implies an element of superiority...

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 06:46 AM

To be clear I mean a feeling of superiority in those who are doing the speaking for others.

If the people who are offended really are unable to speak out for themselves then we have a bigger problem than a few blacked up dancers.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 07:08 AM

I `ad one of those Pig Dyke Molly dancers in my cab the other day. I recognised `im by `is clobber and make up. `e looked just like one of those Bassett`s Liquorice Allsorts.
I said, "Are you a whitey blacked up or are you a blackie whited up `cos there`s a lot of concern on that Mudcat about dancing and "guising" at the moment?
`e said, "It really don`t matter Jim. We reckon we`re a pretty democratic lot but we `ave `ad our problems."
I said, "Go on. What`s that then?"
`e said, "On of our lot once got mistaken for a zebra crossing and the crowd walked all over `im!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 10:41 AM

Never actually hear of these idiots called FRESh before, they can fuck off.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 12:09 PM

I suspect they won't, but I doubt they know this forum exists.

Why not post your considered response on their website? You might also like to do the same on the Shrewsbury FF site too...

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 01:30 PM

So it's fair to consider that if it wasn't for old reactionary die hards like bonzo
there might not be so much need for zealously interfering zero tolerance activist campaigning equalities agencies like FRESh...???

It's your fault bonz... you got the morris black face make up banned...!!!!! 😜

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 04:22 PM

Not me squire!

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 04:32 PM

Just to establish some facts,

1. Border Morris has absolutely nothing whatsoever in common with Minstrelsy, although it would appear that Les in Chorlton is not clever enough to notice the difference as he keeps asking the question! To hopefully make it clear for Les, when did you last see a minstrel with a top hat decorated with pheasant feathers, wearing a tatter jacket and bell pads!

2. Blacking up as a disguise was banned by act of parliament in the 1700's so there is hard historical evidence that it was a recognised practice   

3. Morris is NOT sinister or pagan, earliest records of morris are 16th Century, and Suffolk diarist John Oakes records the morris men getting an allowance for bells from the parish church. Even what may appear to some to be a pagan dance, the Abbots Bromley Horn Dance, the horns are traditionally kept in the parish church, and blessed in and out!

4. Blacking up is very obviously not an attempt at caricature. The face paint is just part of an elaborate kit, and at the end of the day, black is just the colour of the paint.

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: RTim
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 04:40 PM

And Guest:Guest - it would be a "Fact" to state who you are and why you are so biased.
And it again - doesn't matter what you think - it is about what others think!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 09:08 AM

Hi Tim
I agree posters should give some indication of who they are, but he/she is laying the glove down basically and challenging someone to come up with ANY evidence that border morris specifically is related in some way to minstrelsy.

I know of several seasonal customs involving dance that are directly connected to minstrelsy but I have no evidence personally to link border morris.

In view of the difficulties being described here would it not be enough for those customs/teams not linked to minstrelsy to carry with them a sandwich board stating that?