uk folk clubs high standard

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 May 19 - 05:25 PM

Another troll Dave. You know what to do.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 19 - 05:49 PM

"Fewer folk clubs for a variety of mainly economic reasons."
One of the great detrimental changes in clubs has been to replace resident evenings with paid guests - people have argued that this is to put more bums on seats - it certainly isn't an 'economic' move
Another excuse that doesn't make sense
It is far cheaper to run and attend a local club than it is a fesival - I believe you once suggested that the scene wasn't declining but was being replaced by festivals - if not you, many others have
Your economic argument is as full of holes as a string vest, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 02 May 19 - 06:02 PM

Well, at least the emotive imagery is clothes- rather than excrement-based this time. :)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 May 19 - 06:32 PM

Extremely valid economic reasons with no holes.

Pubs shutting down at an alarming rate over a long period of time, somewhat accelerated more recently.

Pubs turning to more lucrative usage of the space due to economic pressure.

Austerity has steadily accelerated since Thatcher's day.

Cheaper to go online and watch clips of favourite performers.

Increasing fuel and transport costs deterring going any distance for a night out at a club.

Folk club necessarily has door charge unlike session/singaround so these options preferred.

etc. etc. yes I know, yawn, excuses, excuses.....

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 01:41 AM

What's a Grom and why don't you just say fuck off like normal people?

(I know, John, but a very poor one ;-) )

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:01 AM

well we've had a lot of sneers about folk comedians and folksingers who presented folksongs in a light hearted manner.

but the hay day of the folk clubs was the day when (not every week) but there nights when you didn't need to be a folk song aficionado to have a good night out at your local folk club.

Basically what happened was that that generation of entertainers died out. The Alex Campbells, Johnny Handles, Peabody and McNulty etc.

What we have left is people who demand respect.....and to be honest...they don't make for the greatest company. The cake needs to seasoned with something lighter.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:46 AM

"Extremely valid economic reasons with no hole"
You've just been given the 'holes' Steve - ignore them if you wish
u cn add to the ons I've given you the 'Electric Folk' experiment which added the totally unnecessary cost of extremely expensive sound equipment and instruments ane turned what is essentially a narrative form into unfollowable electric soup
It's main effect was to make an inexpensive pastime into something that became less accessible and less portable with a need for venues that could cater for a barrage of larely over-amplified sound
I peeped in occasionally on the the 'What guitar do you need for a folk club' thread - if there is an 'economic' problem it's an unnecessary self-inflicted one
When the scene started it was simply to get together and swap songs - pretty well the same as it happened in the tradition
The move away from that, with concerts and reliance on guests and festivals and a pursuit for 'success' - in fact, all but a return to the music industry's values that we walked away from to make our own music.
With very few exceptions, anybody can sing - the more work and thought you put into it, the better you become
Venues have always been a problem, if anything, the economic downturn has eased it a little - anxious landlords wanting to fill empty nights
These are quickly-grabbed excuses Steve - nothing else.

I find your your 'listening to your favourite performers' an indication of the star system that has come to dominate the scene
Sure - it was great to have the occasional guest, but the most enjoyable evenings I can remember were those when a residents night clicked and everyone went home remembering the songs and not the performers

You never needed to be an 'aficionado' to enjoy folk songs Al - the people who gave the songs to us were sailors and farm and factory workers - 'ordinary people'
Few specialised in the songs - they were part of their lives and enjoyment
There's nothing wrong with respecting people who give their songs out of love and a desire to share - it's when they come with a price-tag that worries me
JIm

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 19 - 03:15 AM

"u cn add"
A typo - honest !!
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 19 - 04:03 AM

The average pub landlord of those surviving pubs does nor really want a bunch of folkies sipping orange juice all night. The days of a bar making money purely from drinks are long gone.
Unless an aficionado he/she can make more serving food. A pub providing a venue is providing a "service" not a profit center.

25% of pubs have closed since 2001. 33% since the 70's. I think it is a pretty safe bet that economics closed all these pubs. Breathyalyser, no smoking, cheaper booze from supermarkets, being able to listen to world class performances in the home the reasons are numerous for diminishing audience. This does not directly correlate with a lack of interest however. Ipsosmori is unlikely to survey such a niche interest therefore any participant figures are unreliable to say the least.
The only folk clubs I ever attended not in pubs were student unions and the Surbiton Assembly rooms, so perhaps I show bias.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 03 May 19 - 04:25 AM

While Jim may be right about the songs being 'given' by factory workers, it seems plain that at least some of the people he was involved with, some of the ones doing the 'taking', were 'professional' musicians and/or folklorists, with the Lloyd and Maccoll being examples.

Jim may not have liked electrified music, but some of this was successful and enjoyable and probably introduced people who would not have otherwise heard these songs to them. Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span being two examples of this. In my taste, preferable to the concertina warblings on some Lloyd recordings.

Lloyd was right at the heart of a commercial folk enterprise, as per his work with 'folkways'.

The image of the 'unfollowable electric soup' is not one of Jim's best, and certainly not fair to the two electric groups I have mentioned. Personally, I like soup anyway, so I don't see a problem.

When Walter Pardon was being taxied to various clubs I was wondering whether he appeared free, and who paid the petrol money. In any case, he can hardly have been described as a 'resident', he was a guest. And I doubt that his delivery would have lived up to Maccoll's prescriptions about how stuff should be sung. And that melodeon, hardly a traditional British instrument is it?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 04:36 AM

Interesting about folk clubs not in pubs - I sometimes went to Keele Uni folk club in their SU bar when my lad was there. The other coincidence is that one of my local clubs, Baccapipes, is in a Ukrainian club. Just noticed that Doncaster Roots music club is also in a Ukrainian club! Maybe the Ukrainians are the new torch bearers :-)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 19 - 04:41 AM

"And that melodeon, hardly a traditional British instrument is it?"
It's as traditional as any.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 03 May 19 - 04:47 AM

"all but a return to the music industry's values that we walked away from to make our own music."

Sorry to nitpick, but it seems to me that Jim has been clear that the people there in his clubs were not making their own music, they were making other peoples. To use Jim's own terms, songs from 'the tradition' were being performed on the 'scene'.   

I do recall reading that Lloyd himself was often critical of people whom he thought were not very good, so the rot (if any) must have set in when he was still around.

But maybe this simply is a case of the old looking back through the mists of memory and saying how much better stuff was in the old day?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 19 - 05:16 AM

"they were making other peoples"
Sorry to nitpick but the fact that the music we were making was in the public domain so if it was anybody's it belonged to all of us.
Sure, many were making new songs based on old styles but nobody expected to make anything from them
Of all the leading figures in the revival, Lloyd was the least critical of anybody
We were all amateurs doing our best - no glittering prizes in those days, just the songs

As far as professional performers are concerned, a very few made a living from club performances, mthe overwhelming majority, including those who did pair bookings did other things to supplement their incomes
I know that Ewan and Peggy would arrange a tour when funds ran low - their main activity, when not residentingay The Singers, was to work with other, less experienced singers
Lloyd wrote, translated, lectured, broadcasted... and other things - he in fact did very few bookings

There seems to have been a screeching U turn here
One minute I'm being slagged off for suggesting that something has gone seriously wrong with the folk scene, next minute iI'm being bombarded with excuses for why its gone wrong

"nor really want a bunch of folkies sipping orange juice all night."
You cannot be serious !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 03 May 19 - 05:24 AM

Hello Guest (4.41am)

'As traditional as any', yes, maybe I would agree if you take it that 'traditional' singing was not accompanied at all, as some people seem to believe. So on that basis, then no instruments are 'traditional?

But I understand that the melodeon is 1) a 19th century invention and 2) not English in origin. That was the point of my comment, it's about the 'tradition' and the 'scene'.

Things changed, were not static, and musical electrification seems a logical thing for 'ordinary' people to embrace - along with fridges and electric carpet sweepers.

Returning to the topic of the thread, I cannot compare standards today with those of whenever it was that Jim Carroll was going to clubs (? the 60s?) but I believe that rumours of the death of good entertainment in them are greatly exagerated.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 19 - 06:27 AM

"as some people seem to believe"
Never heard that one
Some songs were accompanied, the vast majority were't
However, there is such a thing as traditional music, presumably played on traditional instruments
America, of course is different
MacColl never had a 'prescription' of how songs should be sung
If he did, maybe someone can produce it - won't hold my breath though
Jim Carroll was going to the clubs from the beginning of the sixties right through to the present day
I resedented regularly into the early nineties, but continue to go as regularly as I could/can after that
Is it really necessary to distort my position - it would seen so !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 May 19 - 06:52 AM

I haven't been going to folk clubs for quite as long, Ithink I went to a folk club in 1964 for the first time. I didn't play in public for another ten or eleven years, but I used to strum away at home - thinking, one day I'll be good enough.

Never did quite make it.

For as long as I can remember - there have been nights where you thought - well that was a waste of an evening. But there was some good stuff in there as well.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 May 19 - 07:29 AM

Steve Gardham wrote -
Pubs shutting down at an alarming rate over a long period of time, somewhat accelerated more recently.

Information from this morning's The Guardian -
In the first four months of this year 636 pubs in the UK have closed their doors beaten only by banks (716).

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 19 - 07:45 AM

Sounds a great argument for offering them a new source of custom Vic
Immaterial anyway
The decline was well underway when the pubs were thriving and the economy was pretty steady
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: r.padgett
Date: 03 May 19 - 07:49 AM

The standard, frequency and abundance of high quality singers and songs goes beyond folk clubs ~ folk clubs? some can claim that title, no doubt mainly traditional based?

Concert clubs and other venues also host Folky guests in whatever format

and folk singarounds all provide great folk based meetings

Folk song music and dance all alive and kicking in UK
________________________________________
They're knocking 'em down the Old pubs

Ray from my posting April 19th

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 May 19 - 07:58 AM

I'm a bit confused about the timescale. Jim seems to be suggesting the rot set it when the clubs started booking professional guests. When I started visiting clubs around 1970 this was already the well-established pattern. Most people I know would say the clubs were thriving during that period and until well into the next decade, at least. So Jim must be talking about the golden era being the 60s or even earlier. If that is the case the folk scene has been in decline for 50 years or more, which I doubt most people involved in it during that time would agree with.

The clubs I see now aren't much different from back in the 70s and 80s, either in standard of performance or the material they present. As then, there is a mix of both traditional and contemporary material, and a mix of abilities. In many respects standards are higher, as more people have access to workshops and lessons. Singing from books or notes is not all that common in my experience, but neither is it a new phenomenon.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 19 - 08:10 AM

"I'm a bit confused about the timescale. Jim seems to be suggesting the rot set it when the clubs started booking professional guests."
No Howard - that always happened, as you pointed out
Becoming reliant on professional guest didn't help, but the main thing was moving away from the type of song that brought us together in the first place
Now Ray is saying that all is well - better get yourselves a hymn sheet you can all sing from, I think - and maybe an abacus to count the number of clubs that have gone awol
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 08:22 AM

You say that quantity does not equal quality but the number of clubs is a measure of how bad things are? Maybe you need the hymn sheet, Jim. Although if you cannot remember your own song maybe it is as well that you stopped attending folk clubs :-)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 May 19 - 08:51 AM

"Becoming reliant on professional guest didn't help, but the main thing was moving away from the type of song that brought us together in the first place"

If by that you mean traditional song, by the time I became involved that too had already happened. The clubs I knew then, and now, covered a wide range of music, including but by no means limited to traditional song. Those clubs which insisted on only traditional songs were seen as something of an oddity.

However we've been over all this many times before. You clearly have a firm idea of the current state of UK folk clubs. I cannot say that you are wrong or that your experience of these clubs is untypical, all I can say is that it doesn't match my own experience. Perhaps what this does show is that the club scene is more diverse than either of us realise.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 08:51 AM

the main thing was moving away from the type of song that brought us together in the first place

Another opinion put forward as fact.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 19 - 09:40 AM

"Another opinion put forward as fact."
You confirmed it with your description of what acceptable at a folk club, as have many others
Why do you do this /
I was around on n the scene when It began to happen - it was fully debated at the time
"but the number of clubs is a measure of how bad things are?"
There may be a lot of bad clubs - quantity means nothing
Remind me again how many clubs make a success according to your link ??
II have stressed throughout that it was a combination of issues being discussed - the main thing being the move away from folk song and its replacement with the limited and transient stuff that people now seem to be happy with   
My argument has been consistent from the beginning and it is based on personal experience - i three of the major cities in Britain
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 09:47 AM

Venues and artiste/s.
Cecil Sharpe House, Fairfield Hall, Eel Pie Island, Surbiton Assembly Rooms(the largest UK folkclub) etc etc.
A blast from the past!


https://concerts.fandom.com/wiki/The_Strawbs

When Folk was mainstream, often electrified and played traditional and contemporary.

It was and is eclectic!

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:22 AM

so its important to pay the eclecticity bill.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:24 AM

Jim, it is your opinion that "moving away from the type of song that brought us together in the first place" was the main cause of the reduction in clubs. No one is disputing that there are fewer folk clubs. That is a fact. There are many causes why those numbers have dwindled, not just the one you mention. I doubt that was even a major cause, let alone the main one. You have offered no evidence in support of your opinion so it remains just that. Your opinion.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:56 AM

Big Al you have been here long enough to know that levity and facetiousness is frowned on, though many threads deserve nothing less!

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 19 - 11:07 AM

"Jim, it is your opinion that "moving away from the type of song that brought us together in the first place"
You do this all the time Dave - attributing documented incidents to "my opinion" just as some eejits pt down the well documented definition of folk song "my definition" (and failing to come up with their own - of course)
The decline of the scene was well debated - largely in magazines like Folk Revue
You can put forward all the silly excises you want, but it stands to sense that people who went out looking for folk song and didn't find it in the clubs, stopped looking
You have no evidence whatever that that is not the case so, whatever excuse you put forward remains 'your excuse' until you offer something substantial
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 11:44 AM

Time to bring in Academia:

http://livemusicexchange.org/wp-content/uploads/Investigating-the-health-of-the-UK-folk-club.pdf

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 May 19 - 12:04 PM

it stands to sense that people who went out looking for folk song and didn't find it in the clubs,

Jim. Could I suggest something here that might help us?
If we are to make progress at all, you need to stop making sweeping generalisations as if they were facts. Look at the statement of yours that I have quoted.
Now try substituting something like In my opinion... or My experience when I lived in England suggests to me that... for it stands to sense that.... In other words, it is not what you say but the way that you say it.

At the moment you making statements that are actually speculative or theroretical sound as though they are factual or tautological (using this word in its formal logic meaning).
The result is that taking the discussion forward gets bogged down as others feel the need to challenge you. Can you see the problem?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 12:42 PM

You have no evidence whatever that that is not the case so

As discussed many times, Jim, you are making the claim, it is up to you to prove it. I have already agreed that it may be part of the issue. You say it is the main reason for the decline in folk clubs so you give us the evidence that it is. And before you ask, I think there is a combination of reasons that moved people out of folk clubs as they were with no single cause being more important than another.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 19 - 12:59 PM

One of your black holes again Dave
I have refererd yo to the discussions that took place and where they took place
You choose to ignore them
I have given you reasons why the scene collapsed - you insisted that everything was fine
Once again, conversations with you have become one sided - I tell you what I know and have experienced - you ignore it
Same with you Vic
You've been round long enough to know that all is not well
Not sure which side you are on really - the ones that say all ois ok or the ones throwing up excuses
Basically - the problem as I see it is simple - the club sene no longer has a basis in folk
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 01:27 PM

I have refererd yo to the discussions that took place and where they took place

Those were discussions like this one. They provide no proof of anything.

you insisted that everything was fine

I did no such thing. I said I enjoy the clubs I go to and there is no shortage of traditional material there. Only a fool would insist everything was perfect with anything.

I tell you what I know and have experienced

You tell us your opinion of what caused the drop in numbers with no proof of your opinion. Many people relate different experiences to you and they confirm what I experience and you ignore that.

Once again, conversations with you have become one sided

It had indeed, Jim. You state your opinions as facts and if anyone disputes them you go off at a tangent. Everyone else can see it even if you can't.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 May 19 - 01:37 PM

'You've been round long enough to know that all is not well...'

Spooky!
Famine an pestilence stalk the land....The grim reaper has is doing a floor spot. Satan himself has won the raffle. Next weeks guests....The Flesh Eating Vampires, so buy your tickets early for the meat raffle.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 19 - 01:47 PM

Now you're being dishonest
You were obviously not there,so you can't possibly claim you know what was said
Unless you wish to call me a liar agai you have no case -
You can't even agree among yourselves - one minute you are saying all is well, the next you are givig a string of illogical excuses why everything went wrong
Not one of you have put forward an alternative definition you can agree on
You put up the number of existing clubs - you've ebeven backed away from that saying nobody can know how many clubs hacve survived your holocaust
I'd have thought someone with your socio-political outlook would have had more respect for the Voice of the People - or perhaps you think they didn't have one
Plenty do
Over and out
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:09 PM

You were obviously not there,so you can't possibly claim you know what was said

I doin't need to know what was said. I know that discussions do not constitute poisitive proof of anything.

You can't even agree among yourselves

There isn't an ourselves. You are, or should be, addressing points that I am making. I have not spoken on behalf of anyone else and no one, as far as I know, has spoken for me.

Not one of you have put forward an alternative definition you can agree on

I am not arguing about any definition. I am saying that your statement "the main thing was moving away from the type of song that brought us together in the first place" is your opinion of why the number of folk clubs declined. Not a fact. You know this to be true so you are trying to cloud the issue.

Stick to the point. Where is your proof that "the main thing was moving away from the type of song that brought us together in the first place" is the main cause of what is wrong on the folk scene.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:10 PM

Oh, and I'm off to Morris practise soon so if you want to make smutty jokes about me enjoying George or Bill again, feel free.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:31 PM

'one minute you are saying all is well, the next you are givig a string of illogical excuses' Jim Carroll
You are welcome to hold that opinion. Nobody NOBODY has disagreed with you that there are fewer folk clubs. We have ALL stated that there are numerous other outlets for folk music nowadays and that in our own separate areas and experiences the scene in the UK is healthy in our opinions ON THE SPOT not a few hundred miles away. There is absolutely plenty of traditional British music being played, and plenty of music that MacColl would approve of in addition.

We are in OUR opinions giving lots of valid reasons for fewer folk clubs. They are NOT excuses, never mind illogical excuses. Perhaps you'd like to analyse those reasons and tell us why you think they are 'illogical excuses'.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:54 PM

Same with you Vic
You've been round long enough to know that all is not well
I must say that I resent you telling me what I know and don't know. My impression is that the English folk scene in on a high at the moment. A recent club appearance by Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne was magnificent. Amongst the best club performance of traditional ballads, songs and dance tunes that I have ever seen. The new album of traditional tunes by Matt Quinn & Owen Woods is superb. They are second and third generation folkies respectively. I have been inspired to submit five magazine articles on these and other young performers which is more than I wrote all last year. In the last couple of years my attendance at folk clubs has probably increased though I attend and take part in more song and tune sessions than I go to clubs. You will be very pleased to hear that no money changes hands at these well-attended sessions but there a high standard of singing and musicianship. In fact the sessions are just like those mythical long lost days that you were on about earlier before all those nasty professional singers came along. Just like the good old days, eh?
However, we have dissimilar involvements in the current English folk scene so our opinions, viewed from County Sussex and County Clare are bound to be different.

Not sure which side you are on really - the ones that say all (o)is ok or the ones throwing up excuses
Sides? What sides? I am not in anybody's gang. Hopefully folk enthusiasts are all in the same position of working together at our different abilities and contrasting emphases; all part of what Hamish Henderson called 'The Flowing Stream'.

Basically - the problem as I see it is simple - the club sene no longer has a basis in folk
Jim
I think what you meant to say was Basically - the problem as I see it is simple -In my opinion the club s(c)ene no longer has a basis in folk.
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Rab C.
Date: 03 May 19 - 03:01 PM

" the scene in the UK... " I think you mean England, and if folk music is in such a healthy state there, I'm very happy for you. Not a single contributer here has mentioned attending recently any club in N.Ireland, Wales or Scotland.
"traditional British music" - there's no such thing.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 19 - 03:04 PM

"I doin't need to know what was said."
'Course you don't !!!!
I'll tell you exactly what happened nevertheless
Fred Woods, editor of F.R. wrote a leader complaining of a couple of noisy clubs he visited, within two issues, writers took up his points and escalated them into a wide ranging criticism of what was happening on the scene in general
The only dissenting voice over the course of those postings was from one of the clubs referred to in the editorial claiming he had turned up on a bad night and the club was not usually as noisy as that
I'm sure, had you been tere you'd have taken up the pen to claim all was well - at your club, at least
Sorry Dave - you do need to know what was said - it is arrogant to claim otherwise

Steve
If there are valid reasons, you haven't given any
Your snide refence to what MacColl would approve of was unnecessary (he's been dead thirty years or so and no loger able to answer for himself -as Peggy pointed out when she asked people to let him lie in peace)
MacColl seldom, if ever commented on other clubs other than to say he enjoyed his visits to them - he just got on with running his club and he and Peggy continued to draw large audiences right up to his death
He must have got something right
If he had behaved in the same manner as some of the grave dancers who still feel the need to display their insecurity at his expense, he would have dedesrecved every word of hatred still being aimed at him
He didn't and he doesn't
Go find another corpse to dig up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 19 - 03:41 PM

Jim, you are letting your paranoia slip out again! There was absolutely NO SNIDE REFERENCEs in my post. I merely was using your frequent references to Ewan to give an idea of the type of songs being sung, along with the traditional songs, in many of the events I've been at in the last 20 years. Any sign of an apology??

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 May 19 - 03:43 PM

" the scene in the UK... " I think you mean England, and if folk music is in such a healthy state there, I'm very happy for you. Not a single contributer here has mentioned attending recently any club in N.Ireland, Wales or Scotland.

I haven't been to folk clubs much in Scotland in the last 15 years because of my schedule, but I do keep up with what I'm missing, and I can see that Scottish clubs are very similar to English ones in content, demographic and organization.

They often book the same acts, and when they haven't it's mostly for younger performers who are less mobile than the old and established. Rachel Walker from Scotland and Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne from England would each go down a storm in the venues the other has played in up to now.

"traditional British music" - there's no such thing.

Scottish and English tradition have been interwoven at least since the Scota got the Highland bagpipe from the English in the 15th century. Vic Smith, posting in this thread, knows as much about Scottish music as anyone, and he's as far from Scotland as you can get without being in France.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 May 19 - 03:59 PM

Vic Smith, posting in this thread, knows as much about Scottish music as anyone, and he's as far from Scotland as you can get without being in France.
Ga'en yirsel', Jimmy

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 19 - 05:15 PM

But what does he know about folk clubs in Scotland in 2019 ?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 May 19 - 05:16 PM

200

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 05:27 PM

Fred Woods, editor of F.R. wrote a leader complaining of a couple of noisy clubs he visited, within two issues, writers took up his points and escalated them into a wide ranging criticism of what was happening on the scene in general

So, as I said, no proof of your statement at all. Just hearsay that reinforces your already entrenched view. You really need to differentiate between fact and opinion if you want to be taken seriously, Jim.