BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:05 PM

The Ghost of Vice President Wallace Warns: "It Can Happen Here"
by Thom Hartmann

Published on Monday, July 19, 2004 by CommonDreams.org

The Republican National Committee has recently removed from the top-level pages of their website an advertisement interspersing Hitler's face with those of John Kerry and other prominent Democrats. This little-heralded step has freed former Enron lobbyist and current RNC chairman Ed Gillespie to resume his attacks on Americans who believe some provisions of Bush's PATRIOT Act, his detention of American citizens without charges, his willingness to let corporations write legislation, and the so-called "Free Speech Zones" around his public appearances are all steps on the road to American fascism.

The RNC's feeble attempt to equate Hitler and Democrats was short-lived, but it brings to mind the first American Vice President to point out the "American fascists" among us.

Although most Americans remember that Harry Truman was Franklin D. Roosevelt's Vice President when Roosevelt died in 1945 (making Truman President), Roosevelt had two previous Vice Presidents - John N. Garner (1933-1941) and Henry A. Wallace (1941-1945). In early 1944, the New York Times asked Vice President Henry Wallace to, as Wallace noted, "write a piece answering the following questions: What is a fascist? How many fascists have we? How dangerous are they?"

Vice President Wallace's answer to those questions was published in The New York Times on April 9, 1944, at the height of the war against the Axis powers of Germany and Japan.

"The really dangerous American fascists," Wallace wrote, "are not those who are hooked up directly or indirectly with the Axis. The FBI has its finger on those. The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power."

In this, Wallace was using the classic definition of the word "fascist" - the definition Mussolini had in mind when he claimed to have invented the word. (It was actually Italian philosopher Giovanni Gentile who wrote the entry in the Encyclopedia Italiana that said: "Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Mussolini, however, affixed his name to the entry, and claimed credit for it.)

As the 1983 American Heritage Dictionary noted, fascism is: "A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."

Mussolini was quite straightforward about all this. In a 1923 pamphlet titled "The Doctrine of Fascism" he wrote, "If classical liberalism spells individualism, Fascism spells government." But not a government of, by, and for We The People - instead, it would be a government of, by, and for the most powerful corporate interests in the nation.

In 1938, Mussolini brought his vision of fascism into full reality when he dissolved Parliament and replaced it with the "Camera dei Fasci e delle Corporazioni" - the Chamber of the Fascist Corporations. Corporations were still privately owned, but now instead of having to sneak their money to folks like Tom DeLay and covertly write legislation, they were openly in charge of the government.

Vice President Wallace bluntly laid out in his 1944 Times article his concern about the same happening here in America:

" If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. ... They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead."

Nonetheless, at that time there were few corporate heads who had run for political office, and, in Wallace's view, most politicians still felt it was their obligation to represent We The People instead of corporate cartels. "American fascism will not be really dangerous," he added in the next paragraph, "until there is a purposeful coalition among the cartelists, the deliberate poisoners of public information..."

Noting that, "Fascism is a worldwide disease," Wallace further suggest that fascism's "greatest threat to the United States will come after the war" and will manifest "within the United States itself."

In Sinclair Lewis's 1935 novel "It Can't Happen Here," a conservative southern politician is helped to the presidency by a nationally syndicated radio talk show host. The politician - Buzz Windrip - runs his campaign on family values, the flag, and patriotism. Windrip and the talk show host portray advocates of traditional American democracy as anti-American. When Windrip becomes President, he opens a Guantanamo-style detention center, and the viewpoint character of the book, Vermont newspaper editor Doremus Jessup, flees to Canada to avoid prosecution under new "patriotic" laws that make it illegal to criticize the President.

As Lewis noted in his novel, "the President, with something of his former good-humor [said]: 'There are two [political] parties, the Corporate and those who don't belong to any party at all, and so, to use a common phrase, are just out of luck!' The idea of the Corporate or Corporative State, Secretary [of State] Sarason had more or less taken from Italy." And, President "Windrip's partisans called themselves the Corporatists, or, familiarly, the 'Corpos,' which nickname was generally used."

Lewis, the first American writer to win a Nobel Prize, was world famous by 1944, as was his book "It Can't Happen Here." And several well-known and powerful Americans, including Prescott Bush, had lost businesses in the early 1940s because of charges by Roosevelt that they were doing business with Hitler. These events all, no doubt, colored Vice President Wallace's thinking when he wrote:

" Still another danger is represented by those who, paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the public from monopolistic extortion. American fascists of this stamp were clandestinely aligned with their German counterparts before the war, and are even now preparing to resume where they left off, after 'the present unpleasantness' ceases."

Fascists have an agenda that is primarily economic. As the Free Dictionary (www.thefreedictionary.com) notes, fascism/corporatism is "an attempt to create a 'modern' version of feudalism by merging the 'corporate' interests with those of the state."

Feudalism, of course, is one of the most stable of the three historic tyrannies (kingdoms, theocracies, feudalism) that ruled nations prior to the rise of American republican democracy, and can be roughly defined as "rule by the rich."

Thus, the neo-feudal/fascistic rich get richer (and more powerful) on the backs of the poor and the middle class, an irony not lost on author Thomas Frank, who notes in his new book "What's The Matter With Kansas" that, "You can see the paradox first-hand on nearly any Main Street in middle America - 'going out of business' signs side by side with placards supporting George W. Bush."

The businesses "going out of business" are, in fascist administrations, usually those of locally owned small and medium-sized companies. As Wallace wrote, some in big business "are willing to jeopardize the structure of American liberty to gain some temporary advantage." He added, "Monopolists who fear competition and who distrust democracy because it stands for equal opportunity would like to secure their position against small and energetic enterprise [companies]. In an effort to eliminate the possibility of any rival growing up, some monopolists would sacrifice democracy itself."

But American fascists who would want former CEOs as President, Vice President, House Majority Whip, and Senate Majority Leader, and write legislation with corporate interests in mind, don't generally talk to We The People about their real agenda, or the harm it does to small businesses and working people. Instead, as Hitler did with the trade union leaders and the Jews, they point to a "them" to pin with blame and distract people from the harms of their economic policies.

In a comment prescient of George W. Bush's recent suggestion that civilization itself is at risk because of gays, Wallace continued:

" The symptoms of fascist thinking are colored by environment and adapted to immediate circumstances. But always and everywhere they can be identified by their appeal to prejudice and by the desire to play upon the fears and vanities of different groups in order to gain power. It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice. It may be shocking to some people in this country to realize that, without meaning to do so, they hold views in common with Hitler when they preach discrimination..."

But even at this, Wallace noted, American fascists would have to lie to the people in order to gain power. And, because they were in bed with the nation's largest corporations - who could gain control of newspapers and broadcast media - they could promote their lies with ease.

"The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact," Wallace wrote. "Their newspapers and propaganda carefully cultivate every fissure of disunity, every crack in the common front against fascism. They use every opportunity to impugn democracy."

In his strongest indictment of the tide of fascism the Vice President of the United States saw rising in America, he added, "They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection."

Finally, Wallace said, "The myth of fascist efficiency has deluded many people. ... Democracy, to crush fascism internally, must...develop the ability to keep people fully employed and at the same time balance the budget. It must put human beings first and dollars second. It must appeal to reason and decency and not to violence and deceit. We must not tolerate oppressive government or industrial oligarchy in the form of monopolies and cartels."
Excerpted from this article. Click for the rest of the essay.

A

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM

This may have been pointed to before, but for a quick review of the key characteristics of a Fascist regime, see This Presentation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:24 AM

Cats that look like Hitler.com

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: 282RA
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 08:36 PM

The Bush administration is indeed a form of Christian fascism.

>>Casually throwing around terms like "fascism" or "Naziism" demeans the people who have suffered and died under such regimes.<<

Perhaps this is true and that is why I never throw such words around lightly. George Bush and his administration and much of the GOP IS INDEED FASCIST.

There is this drive for race and nation as embodied in the anti-immigrant stance. The demand that only English can be the language of America. That when this is lost, the nation is lost. The nation is bigger than the individual who is but a cog in the machinery of the State.

There is the concentration of economic power and the formation of policy strictly held and wielded by the political arm of the administration. In fact, there is no other arm to this administration.

There is the corporatizing of nation and society. In fact, when we talk about the machinery of the state, we talk as much of corporatizing as of bureaucracy. Society has been chopped up into small bodies or corporations. Each of these, in turn, is subservient to the State and the State is the Leader and the Leader is the State. Under the leaders throne, the corporations squat like deformed cats (let's call them little kitlers) that fight and claw at one another ruthlessly but are always subservient to the ruler/State. There is room for each kitler to maneuver to reach number 1 but the State/Ruler is beyond that--the TRUE #1, the Transcendent #1, irreplaceable, the very soul of the State, the Master, the Protector, the Messiah.

There is the need for fear-mongering and for war. Convince the people that their State is under attack and they will do anything to defend it and this is far better than having them sit around content and fed--that causes them to become spoiled children expecting privilege, to start thinking, to start observing, to start learning, to start criticizing, to start organizing into an unauthorized body that may threaten the State.

There is the belief that without the Ruler/State there is only gang rule, complete anarchy, a Mad Max multiple warlords sort of non-society in need of a strong unifying leader. This is extended to the entire world. All nations are merely gangs under a leader and they must all answer to one leader and Bush has decided that leader is him.

Like Calvinism, Bushian fascism is only comfortable making war. As long as good and evil battle, then the struggle of God goes on. And the struggle of God is no different than the struggle of the State/ruler. The story his reign and path to power is what he would call "my struggle."

This struggle consists of guiding the nation to accept his vision. To proclaim him Leader. To see him as the embodiment of the glorious State--of America the Beautiful. His struggle is to dismantle the previous government as a nation of conquerors dismantles the conquered's temples and august institutions just as he tore down Iraq's governmental infrastructure. There is that new vision, the struggle for Transformation, the setting up of a New Order. For Bush, the message to make the vision reality was 9-11, his personal Apocalypse.

Israel and oil are the same thing to Bush. One without the other is unthinkable--literally. Oil is the source of American power, the blood of the American Century. So it only makes sense that America's future lies under the sands of Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran--any enemies we can personally attack. For those we can't, there's Israel. Israel must survive because its existence is proof of biblical prophecy and that is where the final battle is--the Middle East--all roads lead to Israel. In order to fight this battle, we must have oil and it must be nearby and plentiful and only for us so that we may finish this glorious mission.

The Invasion of Iraq was not a response to 9-11 but something preordained.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:47 PM

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
Date: 2006-06-02, 1:10PM MST



10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: bobad
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:49 PM

Above from http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/phx/167335230.html

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: 282RA
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:10 PM

I think Bush has been truly shaken by his involvement in Iraq. Apparently, the easy victory God promised Bush in vision (i.e. pie-eyed drunken stupor) has not materialized. God had promised it would be so easy. Just go in and knock down Iraq's govt and those bone-headed little camel-jockeys will throw themselves on the ground at our feet promise us the moon and sun.

This leaves Bush with two unsavory conclusions:

1. God was wrong

OR (and far worse)

2. George W. Bush was wrong

Now he is uncertain. As long as he made believe his god marched alongside him, he swaggered and smirked his way through his presidency. But now? Now, Bush is like the emperor who suddenly realized he's naked in front of the whole world. Suddenly, he's indecisive about what should be done about Iran and North Korea. Suddenly, he wants Russia and Putin to get tough with Iran at G8. He wants China to take the lead with N.K. Japan is threatening to launch a preemptive strike on N.K. and Bush can only stand there bewildered as though he never saw this coming--simply because he never did.

For Bush, he was only supposed to get the ball rolling and god would handle the rest. Now Bush has no idea how to yank the ball back and god is nowhere in sight for consultation.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:45 PM

Brilliant analysis, 282. ANd bobad, your Craigslist borrow is a pure-dee crack up.


A

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 12:24 AM

Couldn't get past the second paragraph. Bush isn't Christian. By their deeds you shall know them. He's no more Christian than the zionists running Israel are Jews. As a matter of fact, Bush has surrounded himself with zionist advisors, and his deeds indicate he's acting more in the interests of Israel than of America. So does that make him a Jew?

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:13 AM

No, GUEST, it means Bush is a Zionist.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:24 AM

What a fool you are. The same fool who thinks that killing off half the world population is a good idea. The men half of course.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM

There you go again, GUEST, trying to put words in my mouth. I never said killing anyone was a good idea, especially not men in general.

Grab a sense of humour and a few brains.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:13 PM

"The men half of course."

i think that GUEST has a death, dianavan. or maybe its a bad grammar complex. (Maybe his gramma did something bad to him once?)

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:19 PM

Dianavan's statement

I know you're just jokin', Bobert, but by then men will probably be redundant. After all, all we women need to keep on reproducing is just one, very fertile male specimen. Of course there are those of us who will miss the action but, heh, we shouldn't be selfish about this. Its probably a very good way to decrease the population.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM

Genocide. You support that do you

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:59 AM

I missed something. When did Bush become a Jew?

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 12:56 PM

The Dianavan biological model of a virtual "single" male for reproductive purposes does exist in the African Driver ant species.
The driver ants are the most deadly, populous (20,000,000 per colony) and aggressive ant species on Earth. They devour men women and children by going down the windpipe and filling the lungs... so they can eat the person at their leisure without a stuggle.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for a rise of Christian fascism in the wake of the rising tide of Islamic fascist fundamentalism, I need only tell you about my neighbor across the street.

As a piano technician/tuner, he seems like a reasonable man but the longer he has participated in evangical meetings the more strident his world view has become.

He describes his latest outrage as a war against tolerence. He claims tolerence is the root of all evil in the world. The polemic rhetoric he repeats from his meetings is "If I went to your house and clubbed your children to death, I am sure you would not be tolerent. Tolerence is the enemy. Homosexuals are attacking the American family. The agents of tolerence are the Liberals...etc."

Get this-----> his dad was a Jew and fought for America helping to free Concentration camp victims.


I am a clinical hypnotist and am familiar with group dynamics and the pressure individuals are under to conform. I view the changing attitudes of my neighbor to be that of a willing victim being brain washed by the invocation of the word of God - according to extreme ring wing agendas and personalities that he is not even fully aware of.


He is adopting the gospel of hate more and more day by day.

They say Jesus saves but I only wish I could save my neighbor.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

I think he has to save himself, of course; but any help in doing so would be appreciated one day. It's a sorry thing to think of a human being actually arguing such bizarre and twisted propositions.

One thing that has to be part of any help is getting him to differentiate between his own thoughts and those pushed by others. ANother, equally important, is rejecting sweeping generalizations and asking questions like "which homosexuals? which American families have been attacked? when did this happen?" -- specific acts. That breaks the dramatization of generalized evil or whatever.

But really, a guy like that needs a long vacation in a safe place free of threat and "triggers".


A

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:57 PM

Bush is NOT a Jew. Just look at the differences between the Christians in the White House and the Jews running Israel. Bush is bombing innocent women and children. He is threatening to invade Iran. He's... Wait a minute...

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:02 PM

It is good to know that there are Hizbullah supporters on this thread too.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:42 PM

Religion is not my favorite topic, never having been raised with one or even seriously considered adopting one. My parents were the rebels when it came to rejecting the religion they were raised in. My brother and I grew up just wondering every now and then what all those "other" people were doing on Sundays, a whole lot of funerals and weddings we could only conclude.

However, having prefaced my naive upbringing, I'm quite impressed with a book the wife of one of my nephews has put together based on her interviews and research. The book is getting quite a bit of play in the national media and is titled KINGDOM COMING: The Rise of Christain Nationalism by Michelle Goldberg. I'm impressed with how much money the Bush Administration has been able to channel to evangelical Christian groups, ostensibly for counseling but in reality to "pray upon" tose in need of professional help. I'm impressed with the number of evangelical Christians who are now in key policy making positions in the Bush Administration. It's not a stretch to say evangelical Christians now control a majority of Congressional Representatives, and a strong minority in the Senate. Only the Federal court system seems to have survived this assault on the basic rule of law, the rule of science, and concern for all individuals in our society; and with the recent changes at the U. S. Supreme Court we may experience a radical revision of the rights and responsibilities that we have enjoyed for the last half century.

I only recommend this book if you are seriously interested in more details. It's not very entertaining but I do find it hard to put down.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:14 PM

Charley, I do hope you don't really lump every evangelical Christian in this country with the power-grabbing movement under discussion here. Granted, between the consciously power hungry, and the well-meaning folk who follow them blindly, the numbers are far too dangerously large.
   I was raised pretty much as a fundamentalist, but never quite indoctrinated beyond the "point of no return". I shifted by degrees over the years to a stance as a non-fundamentalist evangelical, realizing that belief in a totally literal and infallible Bible is untenable. Eventually I further realized that it is just as untenable to hold that Christians have a monopoly on morality, spritual truth, or the eternal favor of "God".
   I consider myself a Christian by very liberal definition; I believe in God, in a much less defined sense than I once did, and know I'm still shaped by my Christian background.
   But I still interact regularly with Evangelical Christians, and I can assure you that by no means are all of them in lock-step with the right wing neo-conservative agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:40 AM

I am not and have never been a Christian but . . .
I've lived among 'em, a lot of 'em for too long to put much credence in the fears and accusations being bandied about here.

I didn't vote for Shrub, I don't like a lot of his policies, his people, his behaviors. But that don't make 'em necessarily illegal. And fascist, in the sense of Wartime Italy and Germany, I think not. We're seeing a lot of anxiety on the part of certain belief systems that a lot of people subscribe to. Those people have been able to form a powerful voting block, and we're seeing a high water mark of these considerations. They aren't doing the country a lot of good, but they are a legitimate expression of how a lot of American people feel, and the very reason we're getting the brunt of these is beCAUSE we're in a democracy.

I'm not a fan of faith-based education, missile defense, or high colonics, but I'll take faith-based over fear-based any day!

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:35 AM

I agree with robo that the Bush regieme is not a full fledged fascist organisation.

They are proto fascists seeking unlimited executive power.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:53 AM

Frogprince-

To lump "every evangelical Christian in this country with the power-grabbing movement" would strain my basic ethic of "do no harm to others if they do no harm to you." But I have to admit my "shields" are up with regard to all evangelical Christians.

My nephew's wife Michelle admits in her book that she was generally impressed with how friendly and open various fundamentalistic leaders were when they were speaking to her. And yet when she questioned them about some of their past "mean-spirited statements" about gays and lesbians, abortion supporters, or even liberals they were unrepentant. And it's not just their statements that such behavior is "immoral," which can be in my view a legitimate position within their group, but their focused effort to make their view "the law of the land."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:36 AM

Looking at religious groups, like Christians, as just another group, of course they're going to impose their will on govt if they can. Why don't you people squawk when the pharmaceutical companies do it? Look at the "New Freedom Initiative." Written by big pharma. Forced drugging of your children. But that's fine with you, as long as you have the evil Christians to focus your hostility on. And look at what the FDA just did (Food and Drug Administration):

June 30, 2006 is a day that will be long remembered as a dark milestone in the history of FDA and its campaign against health consumers. On June 30, an FDA "Final Rule" goes into effect, establishing a regulatory power grab of such scale and scope that it attempts to bypass all laws, the will of Congress and fundamental protections for consumers. This "Final Rule," which may as well be called a "Final Solution" for drug consumers, claims that consumers can no longer sue drug companies for the harm caused by any FDA-approved drug, even if the drug's manufacturer intentionally misled the FDA by hiding or fabricating clinical trial data....

http://www.newstarget.com/019497.html

Fascism is the merger of business and govt (takeover of govt by business interests). GWBush keeps talking about "public/private partnerships," and the interest groups are writing his legislation, so I have news folks...full-fledged fascism is on the ground and breathing in the U.S. And it's been made possible by the willingness of the "opposition" party to go along with the program.

While you people blame the Christians.

If you don't know the truth by now, it's because you don't WANT to know the truth. The wealthy world elite stole the White House, and the U.S. military is now being used to create global unrest. The unrest leads to big changes in real-estate ownership, and those changes somehow always come out in favor of the elite. Simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:47 AM

but I'll take faith-based over fear-based any day!

Ah, but then the 'faith based' promotes and is a constituent part of the 'fear-based'.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:24 PM

The rise of Christian Nationalism, unlike the capitalist market economy, is a relatively new movement. You can trace some of the players back to the John Birch Society but as a movement it didn't really become part of an administration, in body and spirit, until George W. Bush et al took over in 1990.

Some of the players were appointed to the FDA, which is why people who would like access to the "morning after pill" still find it extremely difficult to procure it.

I find it encouraging that a young woman such as Michelle Goldberg has managed to bring together as much material on this movement as she has, and place it into context.

The founding fathers of this country were wise to uphold the right of religious freedom while at the same time prohibiting the establishment of a state religion.

Of course, some Christians Nationalists are even attempting to revise that interpretation of our nation's history.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:12 PM

From my own experience, I've heard wingnuts insist that separation of church and state is a misinterpretation of the constitution for over forty years now; the good news, then, was that they were mostly powerless yahoos who got little more respect than they deserved from the greater populace.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:28 PM

Frogprince-

I'm personally convinced that the old gods exist and still exercise some power if we pay suitable attention to them. offer them a little honey wine in an appropriate ram's horn. I did witness their power while working in the Peace Corps in Ethiopia back in the 1960's.

But I would never confuse that revelation with the current "holy" crew that's trying to hijack our government, while generously lining their own coffers in the process.

I'd much rather get back to archane music and forget about this but I think dear Michelle has made an impression on me with her damn book!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:22 PM

Give me that old-time religion
"                            "
"                            "
It's good enough for me;
It was good for Aphrodite, When she wore her see-through nightie;
It was good for Aphrodite, and it's good enough for me.

             Pete sang it; I don't know if he wrote it.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM

Frogprince, I think the writer was Mark Graham. Who also wrote 'I've Seen Your Aura- and It's Ugly.'

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: mandotim
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:10 AM

The post above from Donuel about tolerance got me thinking (I'm a latecomer to this thread, but I've spent the last couple of hours reading, digesting and running down references). I'm a Brit, but I know a lot of Americans both in person and virtually. What strikes me most is the self reliance of Americans, which sometimes translates into 'I'm American, I don't need any other currency/language/religion/political system/culture/leader/resources/army' etc etc. This may be true, but it seems to preclude the need to understand anything non-American. This is particularly true of the younger Americans in my experience (and I fully accept that it is wrong and dangerous to generalise from the few to the many; this post is intended to be contemplative rather than definitive). In the case of fundamentalist Christians (or any fundamentalists) this tendency seems to breed an unwillingness to tolerate opposing viewpoints whatever the evidence (eg creationism versus evolution). Lack of tolerance gives no opportunity for real understanding, which debases the quality of debate in many cases; this seems to be the root of the argument between the Christian Right and their perceived opponents; if God is on our side, why do we need to understand your point of view? An American wrote something good here, and I make no apologies for quoting extensively;
'If I do not want what you want, please try not to tell me that my want is wrong.
Or if I believe other than you, at least pause before you correct my view.
Or if my emotion is less than yours, or more, given the same circumstances, try not to ask me to feel more strongly or weakly.
Or yet if I act, or fail to act, in the manner of your design for action, let me be.
I do not, for the moment at least, ask you to understand me. That will come only when you are willing to give up changing me into a copy of you.
I may be your spouse, your parent, your offspring, your friend, or your colleague. If you will allow me any of my own wants, or emotions, or beliefs, or actions, then you open yourself, so that some day these ways of mine might not seem so wrong, and might finally appear to you as right -- for me. To put up with me is the first step to understanding me. Not that you embrace my ways as right for you, but that you are no longer irritated or disappointed with me for my seeming waywardness. And in understanding me you might come to prize my differences from you, and, far from seeking to change me, preserve and even nurture those differences.'
From 'Please Understand Me' by David Kiersey
This was meant for individuals, but to me it sounds like good advice for governments and religions too.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:13 PM

*Aaron Russo's New Movie -- AMERICA: FREEDOM TO FASCISM*
http://freedomtofascism.com

AMERICA: FREEDOM TO FASCISM Synopsis

Determined to find the law that requires Americans to pay income tax,
Aaron Russo (THE ROSE, TRADING PLACES) sets out on a journey. Neither
left- nor right-wing, this startling examination exposes the systematic
erosion of civil liberties in America. Through interviews with US
Congressmen, a former IRS Commissioner, former IRS and FBI agents, tax
attorneys and authors, Russo connects the dots between money creation,
federal income tax, voter fraud, the national identity card (becoming
law in May 2008) and the implementation of radio frequency
identification (RFID) technology to track citizens. A striking case
about the evolving police state in America.


*CBS, Todd David Schwartz*- *"Four Stars (Highest Rating).*
*The Scariest Damn Film You'll See This Year. It will leave you
staggering out of the theatre, slack-jawed and trembling..."*

*NewsWithViews.com, Steven Yates*- *'America: "Freedom to Fascism" A
Must See Movie'*
See a movie review:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Yates/steven20.htm


*Opening July 28th* in Chicagoland at theatres including Chicago, New
York, Kansas City area, Austin Texas area, and Tampa Florida area:
http://freedomtofascism.com/screenings/screenings.html


_______________________________________________

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:09 PM

Arrested Bush Dissenters Eye Courts

By TODD DVORAK Associated Press Writer

http://www.salon.com/wire/ap/archive.html?wire=D8J152I80.html

July 22,2006 | CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa -- When school was canceled to
accommodate a campaign visit by President Bush, the two 55-year-old
teachers reckoned the time was ripe to voice their simmering
discontent with the administration's policies.

Christine Nelson showed up at the Cedar Rapids rally with a Kerry-
Edwards button pinned on her T-shirt; Alice McCabe clutched a small,
paper sign stating "No More War." What could be more American, they
thought, than mixing a little dissent with the bunting and buzz of a
get-out-the-vote rally headlined by the president?

Their reward: a pair of handcuffs and a strip search at the county jail.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:55 PM

This type of stuff began under the "liberal" Clinton, with his "Free Speech Zones."

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:59 PM

My local rag this morning had a brief article on the report that the IRS is planning a "reduction in personnel." For some reason, the story didn't make it to their website, but the byline was from DAVID CAY JOHNSTON at the NY Times.

"The federal government is moving to eliminate the jobs of nearly half of the lawyers at the Internal Revenue Service who audit tax returns of some of the wealthiest Americans, specifically those who are subject to gift and estate taxes when they transfer parts of their fortunes to their children and others.

"The administration plans to cut the jobs of 157 of the agency's 345 estate tax lawyers, plus 17 support personnel, in less than 70 days. Kevin Brown, an IRS deputy commissioner, confirmed the cuts after the New York Times was given internal documents by people inside the IRS who oppose them.

"The Bush administration has successfully lobbied Congress to enact measures that reduce the number of Americans who are subject to the estate tax but has failed in its efforts to eliminate the tax entirely.

"Brown said that he had ordered the staff cuts because far fewer people were obliged to pay estate taxes under President Bush's legislation.

"But six IRS estate tax lawyers whose jobs are likely to be eliminated said that the cuts were just the latest moves behind the scenes at the IRS to shield people with political connections and complex tax-avoidance devices from thorough audits.

"Sharyn Phillips, a veteran IRS estate tax lawyer, called the cuts a "back-door way for the Bush administration to achieve what it cannot get from Congress, which is repeal of the estate tax.""

Another case of "if you don't like what the ^***legislators do, just ignore them." (?)

^*** Also applies to the Constitution, apparently.

John

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 04:19 PM

I happen to know something about Clinton's alleged institution of "free speech zones" because I was there when the incident that triggered them happened.

It was following the WTO conference in 1999 in Seattle. There was an orderly protest march composed some 40,000 people from various unions and other organizations. They had all the proper parade licenses and other permits that the law requires. No problem. It was all very orderly, and the world was beginning to note that not everyone liked a lot of the ideas being discussed at the World Trade Organization. So far, so good.

But then—a group of self-appointed "anarchists" who said they were from Eugene, Oregon, and several other gooney-birds, some in small groups and some individually, a few of whom may have been motivated by opposition to the WTO, but most appeared just to be out for mayhem, ran amok downtown, smashing plate glass windows and setting fires. This was well covered by the news services and became known around the world as the "Battle of Seattle."

That's about 200 rioters out of 40,000 peaceful demonstrators.

To forestall further riots of this nature at future WTO meetings (I think the next conference was somewhere in eastern Canada, in which case, "free speech zones" can hardly be laid at Clinton's door—I'm sure someone here can either confirm or correct the location), demonstrators were kept some distance away from the meeting places in order to keep the conference from being disrupted as they had been in Seattle. The "anarchists" from Oregon had announced that they were going to be there too, so the zones at the second WTO conference were not an attempt to stifle peaceful protest, but to prevent rioting.

I do not recall that it was Clinton who actually instituted "free speech zones." Perhaps the nameless GUEST who alleges that he did can provide links to verifiable documentation. I think that's fair enough to ask.

The First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." If the assembly is not peaceable, but a riot, then the authorities are within their constitutional rights to take steps to break up the riot or prevent it from occurring under similar circumstances.

One wonders about the real motivation of those who intentionally turned a peaceful demonstration into a riot. Perhaps their intention was to goad the government into attempting to prevent all demonstrations, peaceful or otherwise.

But even if Clinton was the one who instituted the "free speech zone" practice, this does not excuse the Bush administration from its widespread efforts to continue its use, especially in the case of peaceable assembly, in order to keep the president insulated from all indications that not everyone agrees with him. Or for the press to neglect to cover protests and demonstrations, even if they are several blocks—or miles—from where Bush is.

No, you can't blame this on Clinton without verifying it and qualifying it a great deal.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:36 PM

Blame it on Clinton? You just did. Those were govt agitators, by the way. False-flag terrorism. Works every time. Worked in Seattle, worked on 9-11, working for the fascist Israelis against Lebanon right now. Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:50 PM

That is an incorrect use of the term 'false-flag'. The purpose of false-flag work is to find individuals who say they are with you but really aren't. The person is given information that is specific to just that individual, so if and when the information is used, the people looking for who is leaking the information can determine who that is by the nature of either the info itself or bits of info in the message.

Carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:26 AM

I'll admit right from the start that I have not yet read all the posts. There are just too many rabbit trails to persue. Nor did I condescend to waste my time reading a the dia-tripe in the original article. What swill. "We hate George Bush" Satan incarnate, no doubt. Learn how to be a good loser and you may do better at the next election. You know, as bad as I thought Clinton was going to be, he wasn't. As good as I hoped George Bush would be, he isn't. I'm tempted to say, "such is the nature of a democracy" but I won't because one of the points I want to make is the glaring error in the original article which appearently no one has picked up on. The United States of America is first and foremost A REPUBLIC. That is an important little piece of the puzzle to hold onto. We are a limited democracy. That is another of the neat little checks written into our constitutional government. The reason it is there is the fact that sometimes the majority can be WRONG ! (appeal to populace, informal fallacy). It's like that great REPUBLICAN President once said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

The word "fascism" certainly gets wide currency on this site but I've yet to see a worthwhile definition. If I were to garner a definition solely from it's use here I would have to assume that it meant, "anybody who doesn't agree with my opinion." While you're scrambling for your favorite dictionaries it might behoove you to remember that the Nazi party of Germany was a SOCIALIST party. Fascisim gains a foot hold (1) where ever people don't make an effort to think for themselves (2) Where people do not respect the right of the other person to state his opinion whether they agree with it or not (3) Where human dignity is forgotten in the heat of the debate (4) where personal attack takes the place of intelligent debate.

True tolerance can only take place where someone holds convictions or considered opinions on some subject. It disgusts me when I hear non-thinkers parroting slogans and then shouting down someone who present a different point of view, regardless of which side of the issue he comes in on. Bottom line is this: If we are going to have a civilization we are going to have to act in a civilized manner. If we want to be heard, we are going to have to listen. If we want our rights respected we are going to have to respect the rights of others.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 12:53 PM

That's just an assertion, GUEST. You're bloviating.

Let's have some documentation.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:36 PM

I think I said all of this before up above somewhere, but—

National Socialism (Nazism) is not the same as straight socialism. In the context of "National Socialism," "socialism" was just a meaningless word. But then, Nazism was not pure fascism, either.

Benito Mussolini, who essentially invented Fascism, or at the very least, implemented it for the first time, defined it by saying, "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." He chose the fasces, an axe surrounded by a bundle of sticks, as the symbol of fascism. To him, the sticks symbolize the corporations and the axe symbolizes the power of the State. The two work as a unit.

There is more to the definition of fascism than this. But in many ways, since people tend to think of Nazism as the quintessential expression of fascism, they are somewhat misled. For example, Nazism was strongly racist. But this is not a necessary part of fascism. Fascist Italy (where there was a purer form of fascism than there was in Germany) was not particularly racist. Nor does it require black uniforms, swastika armbands, and jackboots. A dark business suit and a power necktie can be just as much of a uniform.

When you consider the revolving door between the offices of power in Washington, D. C., and the offices of power in the major corporations in the United States (starting with Vice President Dick Cheney, how many or our elected leaders are former CEOs or will become CEOs when their term of office is up?), and the obvious catering, if not downright kowtowing to big business that the government indulges in, in the light of Mussolini's thumbnail definition of fascism, it's pretty easy to make the case that we're already there.

As to "Christian Fascism," I'm not sure that "fascism" is the right word. History has given us a number of examples of such meldings of religion and state. More blatant examples of how bad this can get are, historically, among Catholics, the Spanish Inquisition, Protestants, the Salem trials, and in modern times under Islam, the Taliban.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:01 PM

Review, if you will, the Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism and compare them to the ideals defined by the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. COnstitution, and the Bill of Rights.

I believe you will find that certain aspects of American political life at present have slipped tragically toward the former from the latter.

Just go down the list and see if you can spot any such instances. A healthy exercise for any free-thinking human.

A

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 08:59 PM

So if the "fascism" in America is being blamed on Christians, is the fascism in Israel being blamed on Jews? I catch a little TV every once in a while and of course Israel's being portrayed as long-suffering and put-upon, but aren't they murdering civilians in Lebanon right now? And isn't Israel a "Jewish state?" So what's up with the rise of Jewish fascism?

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:00 PM

And what's up with Islamic fascism?

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM

The contrast is between the founding spirit of the place and its current unfortunate misadverntures; it is incidental, in some ways, that the "base" is reactionary Christian to a large percentage. Muslim nations have never stepped up to serve as models for liberty, or the inalienable rights of human beings, nor has Israel.

A

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:19 PM

From Forbes:

A powerful Republican committee chairman who has led the fight against President Bush's signing statements said Monday he would have a bill ready by the end of the week allowing Congress to sue him in federal court.

"We will submit legislation to the United States Senate which will...authorize the Congress to undertake judicial review of those signing statements with the view to having the president's acts declared unconstitutional," Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter, R-Pa., said on the Senate floor.

Specter's announcement came the same day that an American Bar Association task force concluded that by attaching conditions to legislation, the president has sidestepped his constitutional duty to either sign a bill, veto it, or take no action.

Bush has issued at least 750 signing statements during his presidency, reserving the right to revise, interpret or disregard laws on national security and constitutional grounds.

"That non-veto hamstrings Congress because Congress cannot respond to a signing statement," said ABA president Michael Greco. The practice, he added "is harming the separation of powers."

Bush has challenged about 750 statutes passed by Congress, according to numbers compiled by Specter's committee. The ABA estimated Bush has issued signing statements on more than 800 statutes, more than all other presidents combined.

Signing statements have been used by presidents, typically for such purposes as instructing agencies how to execute new laws.

But many of Bush's signing statements serve notice that he believes parts of bills he is signing are unconstitutional or might violate national security.

Still, the White House said signing statements are not intended to allow the administration to ignore the law.

"A great many of those signing statements may have little statements about questions about constitutionality," said White House spokesman Tony Snow. "It never says, 'We're not going to enact the law.'"

Specter's announcement intensifies his challenge of the administration's use of executive power on a number of policy matters. Of particular interest to him are two signing statements challenging the provisions of the USA Patriot Act renewal, which he wrote, and legislation banning the use of torture on detainees.

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:19 PM

You know if this thread were refocused on "Christian Nationalism" in this country we all might learn something. And I grant that it is a serious subject.

Or we could continue baiting one another or engaging in entertainment:

"Oh, that poor little lion hasn't got a Christian!"

What famous movie does that quote relate to?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: GB and the Rise of Christian Fascism..
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:34 AM

Islamic fascism. As practiced where? I've heard Rush Limbaugh froth about Islamic fascism, but I don't think he's ever mentioned a particular country. I know there's been a serious problem in the Sudan for the last few years...Muslims killing Christians...and if GWBush and gang were really Christian, that's where they'd be right now. Right? They'd be stopping the slaughter of Christians.

But the Bush gang isn't in the Sudan. They've put American troops in harm's way because Israel wants to eradicate its neighbors. How 'bout that photo a couple days ago of school kids in Israel taking a field trip to a military facility and signing their names on howitzer shells. What loving people. Gonna shell Lebanese kids...from Israel to its Lebanese neighbors, in the hopes that they can soon co-exist peacefully. What a crock.

And if GW and his gang were such fundamentalists, how come Israel even exists today? I mean, fundamentalists are stereotyped as stumbling around, muttering in tongues and saying "the Jews killed Jesus" during their coherent moments, so if Bush is so fundamentally Christian, why doesn't he nuke Israel? The country meets all his criteria of "terrorist state" and "rogue nation," and the fundamentalists say the Jews killed Jesus, so why is Israel still on the map? Something doesn't add up here.

Bush isn't a Christian. Some of his so-called Christian appointees are pro-zionist because they think Jesus will rule from Jerusalem when He returns, so we gotta secure Jerusalem. And some of the fundamantalists believe America's not mentioned in Revelations in the "end times," therefore America has to be destroyed before Scripture can be fulfilled. Odd thinking, admittedly, but then Jews and Muslims have some quirky beliefs too. But to ascribe any Christian attribute to Bush at all is absurd. Can't argue with the fascism, though.