BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:31 PM

Carol C: I think this probably will have to end the discussion. What can I say---without sound you writing sounds like a virulent and loud cacophony of sound---what did Shakespeare say----"signifying nothing".    You misrepresent my thoughts on humanity, you bring up extraneous things (Protocols of Zion---to make you sound fair minded), you bring up alleged justifications (your words) for slavery and subjagation of Native Americans. Things I, and I think no one else, on this thread ever mentioned. Obfuscation does seem to be your forte when all other arguments and the rational behaviour of others cannot be overcome. You have made some valid points---but, sadly, you denigrate them with your ranting.

So--to this thread I bid a fond ado with the thought that you have really gone over the top in your sad and obssesive debating points.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:43 PM

Argumentum ad hominem.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 08:45 PM

Bill H,

I don't think you understand what Carol is saying to you. But then with the amount of rhetoric on all sides of this debate I don't see the point in explaining. You are being insulting, perhaps that is a reflection of your frustration. It certianly makes it less enjoyable to communicate with you. All things considered, I think your "fond Adieu" is a good idea. See you around.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:00 PM

Looks like you write in tandem----I do love togetherness. Adieu once again.

May peace reign---in the world, in your house (where I guess it does since you write in tandem), and in the universe.

By the way do you both sit at the key board or do you have a his and hers computer that delivers the same confirming messages? Must be crowded.

Bill

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:08 PM

Bill H,

You're far from the first sensible person who has been worn down and chased out of these discussions by CarolC (or now CarolC in her axis with Jack the Sailor). There have been many threads, many people have come and gone, and CarolC keeps posting the same stuff over and over again. Thousands and thousands of posts. Talk about an obsession.

In a nutshell, Israel and its American supporters, are the root of all evil. Zionism lobby is 100% responsible for everything that has gone wrong in the Middle East since the first Arabs arrived in, and conquered, the area in the 7th Century CE (about 3,000 years after the Jews arrived).

If you do not agree with everything that CarolC says, you are a Nazi. No question about it, you're a Nazi.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 09:27 PM

Guest:

I just looked at Carol's recent post in which she states, quite evenhandedly, that false statements detrimental to the repute of Palestinians/Arabs are just as bad as false statements detrimental to the repute of Jewish people.

This does not at all align with your rendition of her POV.

Do you think she's wrong about this evenhanded view?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:45 PM

I do. I think she is totally full of shit.

Thanks for asking.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 08:45 AM

Thanks, Amos. I had read that article in German and would have started a thread about it if I had found an English version. It has an obviously one-sided but nevertheless refrehingly different point of view.

You are in no way guilty of the ballyhoo happening here. To call you implicitely dumb and racist falls back on the poster.

Too many posters here from both sides of the argument do not respond to what has actually been written but to what they want to read.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 11:11 AM

You're right, Wolfgang. Amos is neither dumb nor racist.

The article that opens this thread, unfortunately, is both. The following paragraph alone makes it so:

The problem is that the vast silent majority of these Moslems are not part of the terror and of the incitement but they also do not stand up against it. They become accomplices, by omission, and this applies to political leaders, intellectuals, business people and many others. Many of them can certainly tell right from wrong, but are afraid to express their views.

Let's rephrase it and see what kind of response it engenders:

The problem is that the vast silent majority of these Jews did not massacre civilians at Qibia (substitute any other atrocity committed by the Israeli government here) but they also did not stand up against it. They become accomplices, by omission, and this applies to political leaders, intellectuals, business people and many others. Many of them can certainly tell right from wrong, but are afraid to express their views.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 04:02 PM

Bow about:

The problem is that CarolC did not herself kill 10,000 innocent Iraqis in the past year. But, rather than do anything about her own country's killing of civilians in a phony war of agression, she sits in her trailer writing reams of propaganda condemning a country for defending itself against the terrorists that randomly murder little girls eating pizza or riding their school bus. As an American, she is complicit in every Iraqi death, but she ignores them in favor of railing against the Israelis.

Or how about:

CarolC and Jack the Sailor live in Alabama, one of only seven states in the USA that executes children. Not just children, mentally retarded children. Despite this crime against humanity being perpetrated in their names, by their own state government, virtually in their own back yard, CarolC and Jack do nothing. Instead, they sit in their trailer writing reams of propaganda condemning a country for defending itself against the terrorists that randomly murder little girls eating pizza or riding their school bus. As Alabama residents, they are complicit every time their state executes another child.

The problem is that the vast silent majority of these Jews did not massacre civilians at Qibia (substitute any other atrocity committed by the Israeli government here) but they also did not stand up against it. They become accomplices, by omission, and this applies to political leaders, intellectuals, business people and many others. Many of them can certainly tell right from wrong, but are afraid to express their views.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jul 04 - 04:17 PM

GUEST, since you don't live here with us, you have no way of knowing how we direct our energies when we're not posting to the Mudcat. However, here in the Mudcat, I am just as critical of my own country's actions as I am of the actions of the government of Israel. My posting history has plenty of condemnations of the crimes against humanity committed by my own government.

In both cases, I have a responsibility to speak up. Against my own country, because I am a citizen here with voting rights and as a taxpayer. In the case of Israel, because Israel would not be able to commit the acts I criticize without the money given it by the US taxpayers, me included.

If you accept the premise of the author of the article that opens this thread, then you must accept the premise that I have not only a right to speak up, but a responsibility. Otherwise, I am complicit. You can't have it both ways.

Neither the US or Israel is acting in self defense. The US and Israel are both agressor countries. And I do condemn the practice of capitol punishment in any states of the US where it is practiced. Especially when it is practiced against minors and/or the mentally handicapped.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 02:23 AM

So what Palestinians are doing is self defense?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 12:00 PM

Brucie, they are under occupation. They have no civil rights of any sort. No rights as human beings whatever. Their lives are completely subject to the whims of the members of the IDF who occupy their land (many of whom are barely out of their teens), who enforce the checkpoints arbitrarily and with blatant disregard for human rights, checkpoints that, according to many members of the IDF even, serve absolutely purpose from a security standpoint. People die because of the arbitrary enforcement of closures. Pregnant women lose their babies because they can't get to a hospital in time to get the medical attention they need while in labor. Their homes are continually being destroyed and their land confiscated, in many cases so that Israeli settlers can build segregated, Jewish only, settlements, accessed by Jewish only roads.

Their water is stolen from them so that the settlers can fill their swimming pools and water their lawns, while water to the Palestinians is rationed so tightly, they aren't even able to meet the most basic household needs. They are subjected to collective punishment on a daily basis. If someone was doing all of these things to you and your family, and you resisted, even with force of arms, would you consider yourself to be acting in self-defense?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 12:03 PM

Correction. This statement:

according to many members of the IDF even, serve absolutely purpose from a security standpoint.

Should read:

according to many members of the IDF even, serve absolutely no purpose from a security standpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST,Yes, I am a Cunning Ham, I am
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 12:19 PM



What CarolC chooses not to mention about why pregnant women are subject to checkpoints is that there have been multiple instances of Palestinian homocide/suicide bombers disguised as pregnant women, in several cases riding in Red Crescent ambulances, who have been responsible for many murders and maimings of innocent children, women and men in Israel.

Their homes are continually being destroyed and their land confiscated, in many cases so that Israeli settlers can build segregated, Jewish only, settlements, accessed by Jewish only roads.

Personally, I'm against the settlements and believe that most should be dismantled. However, what CarolC says here is a hate-mongering lie. Palestinian homes that are destryoyed -- again something that I'm against -- are those that have been shown to be involved in terrorist activities. There have been no cases of Israeli settlements being built on the grounds of these destroyed homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 12:31 PM

What CarolC chooses not to mention about why pregnant women are subject to checkpoints is that there have been multiple instances of Palestinian homocide/suicide bombers disguised as pregnant women, in several cases riding in Red Crescent ambulances, who have been responsible for many murders and maimings of innocent children, women and men in Israel.

Perhaps in some cases, but in most cases it's just arbitrary decisions made at the whim of IDF soldiers. Even some members of the IDF admit this.

However, what CarolC says here is a hate-mongering lie. Palestinian homes that are destryoyed -- again something that I'm against -- are those that have been shown to be involved in terrorist activities. There have been no cases of Israeli settlements being built on the grounds of these destroyed homes.

This is pure bullshit. There are even homes for settlers that are being placed on top off existing Palestinian homes... while the Palestinians are still living in them.

Brucie, you're a sadist. Having a slow day are you? Looking to have some fun at the expense of others? Thought you'd give someone a poke just so you could see them jump?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 12:40 PM

And of course the thousands of Palestinians homes that have been destroyed for the purpose of building the Jewish only access roads for the settlements, and the thousands of Palestinian homes and orchards that have been razed to the ground to provide "security" for the settlements, are still destroyed because of the settlements, whether a settler's home gets built on the spot where the Palestinian home use to stand or not. If the settlements weren't there, the Palestinians' homes would not have been destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST,Yes, I am a Cunning Ham, I am
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 12:43 PM

CarolC makes a lot of unfounded charges.

Can you provide some sources for your information, CarolC, so we can have a look at it ourselves? That's pretty standard procedure in serious discussions here in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 12:52 PM

No problem, GUEST. I'll have them for you some time in the next hour or two.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 01:09 PM

I'll provide the documentation later this afternoon. I'm working on the Pollard thread right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 04:43 PM

You are really busy---this seems to be a career move at this point.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 05:10 PM

Here's a little bit to get you started. I'll post more as time permits.

http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h021903.html

"So far, the junta's policy has proven quite effective. Driven away by economic strangulation and fear of settlers' violence, the population of 12.000 Palestinians who inhabited Hebron's Old City has dwindled to 5.000 souls since the division of the city in 1997. As for H1 in its entirety, Israeli Channel 1 estimated last week that 20.000 out of its 40.000 Palestinians left their homes. The camera showed rows of Palestinian houses with windows left broken in spite of the cold winter, a clear evidence for a successful policy of ethnic cleansing.

Deserted houses are then taken over by settlers, who get the chance to harass the next row of Palestinian neighbours. Depicting Hebron as a purely Jewish city, the maps of Israel's Foreign Office are thus not just a distortion of reality: they express both a desire and an actual policy of ethnic cleansing, which is carried out with horrendous efficacy in this terrorised Palestinian city. PS: I am well aware of standard Israeli propaganda, so anti-Palestinian readers need not bother to remind me of the 67 Jews massacred in Hebron back in 1929. May they rest in peace. Their children and grandchildren (none of whom is among the present Hebron settlers) have repeatedly condemned the atrocities carried out by the settlers, who claim to be heirs to the massacred, but in fact desecrate their very memory by their crimes."

– Ran HaCohen

http://www.acay.com.au/~stphil/olivegrove.html

"Living conditions in Hebron are hard to describe adequately. It is one of the few cities in the West Bank where Jewish Israeli settlers actually live within the city, and we see signs of the stress everywhere we go. The town has been divided into two sectors, H1, which is theoretically under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian National Authority, and H2, which is governed by Israel. Many Palestinians have relocated from sector H2 to sector H1, and our guide tells us that most Palestinians believe that the government of Israel wants to force all of the Palestinian residents out of H2. Currently about 60,000 Palestinians live in H1, while about 40,000 live in H2, along with 400 Israeli Jewish settlers, protected by 2000 soldiers.

This heavy military presence leads to a powder-keg feeling that we notice immediately walking through the streets of the city. The main street is clogged, not only with boisterous automobile traffic, but with a makeshift market set up right in the middle of the avenue. The old marketplace stands almost empty from shop closures ordered by the army, while resilient merchants try to earn their living by moving sales out into the thoroughfare.

Above the streets are the homes of the Israeli settlers, many built right on top of Palestinian homes. This proximity contributes to the strained atmosphere. Palestinian residents have roofed the streets with metal fencing to catch garbage, bricks, and rocks which are thrown at them from above by the settlers. As we pass under, we see places where the fencing has been dented by huge chunks of concrete."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JQP/is_2002_August/ai_90530493

http://www.cpt.org/archives/2004/jan04/0028.html

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: mg
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 10:48 PM

I can see why in cases of terrorism Palestinian homes or buildings might need to be destroyed. I can not think of a military reason why anyone on any side of the issue would be safer by then putting in settlers on the property. What should happen, as far as I can figure out, is in those cases, that the farm should revert to farm land. Barring that, something like a playground, soccor field, community garden or something. As much as possible, it should be farmed by the Palestinian farmers, under the watchful eyes of guards who would both protect them from harm and protect others from any harm they could do. If they need to build watchtowers or whatever, then they need to. They do not need to build homes and put other people there to add insult to injury and increase the chances of harrassment, blockades to their farms etc. Any farmers, workers etc. should have save passage, probably with military escort, to their destinations, but they should also be run through checkpoints and probably have to leave tools etc. in a secure place so they can travel back and forth with as little baggage as possible. As far as ambulances, I have already said that there probably needs to be a transfer to an Israeli ambulance at a heavily armed checkpoint. Unfortunate, but that is the best answer I can come up with right now.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 01:11 PM

Here's some more of the documentation I promised:

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Special%20Section/Closure/hatred_despair_fomented.htm

Where hatred and despair are fomented
By Gideon Levy
Ha'aretz
January 18, 2004

"All of the Israel Defense Forces checkpoints in the occupied territories are immoral and illegitimate. Therefore, they must be removed unconditionally. There is no place to discuss their security value. Even if someone were to succeed in proving that a connection exists between locking residents in their villages and preventing terrorist attacks in Israel - which is highly doubtful - that would make no difference one way or the other. A law-abiding state does not adopt immoral and illegitimate measures, whatever their value.

Equally irrelevant is the discussion about the physical conditions that exist at the checkpoints. Disgraceful as they are, improving them will add nothing to their legitimacy. The only question is why checkpoints exist deep in occupied territory? By what right? Only to satisfy the settlers and abuse the Palestinians? The question of whether the orders that IDF soldiers receive at the checkpoints are legal is also irrelevant. Is the soldier who let an injured boy go through the checkpoint at Beit Iba last week, but prevented the passage of a man who had a slipped disc moral? The answer is unimportant. The very fact that he is posted there, and the authority he is given to routinely deprive people of their basic right to move about freely in their country and in their village is immoral. So the IDF initiative to post Arabic-speaking soldiers at checkpoints is ludicrous. Depriving someone of his rights in Arabic is hardly any more just.

A state that defines itself as a democracy and law-abiding country does not imprison three-and-a-half million people in their villages and towns, slice up their country into strips, and declare roads for the use of Jews only. In Israel, though, the illegitimacy of the checkpoints is not enough to get them removed. The only discussion one occasionally hears has to do solely with their usefulness to security and the need to improve the soldiers' behavior.

A special committee that was established not long ago by the government coordinator of activities in the territories is examining the actions at four different IDF checkpoints. There is no need for a committee; all that has to be done is to dismantle them. Another initiative by Meretz MK Roman Bronfman, who last week convened a group of MKs that will visit IDF checkpoints and monitor events there, is praiseworthy. Like the article in Haaretz by former Tel Aviv mayor and retired major general Shlomo Lahat, who described what he saw at checkpoints, this new parliamentary initiative will be able to generate interest over what happens there. The MKs will see with their own eyes and will report to the public about the soldiers' behavior, the women in labor who are made to wait endlessly, the women who are forced to tell soldiers that they are bleeding so their hearts will soften, and the boy who tries to persuade a soldier to let him pass so he can visit his grandfather. But this welcome initiative must not focus on improving the conditions at the checkpoints; it must focus on getting them removed altogether.

Since the dawn of the occupation, the Palestinians have not been subjected to a harsher decree than the one that deprives them freedom of movement. The dozens of internal checkpoints in the West Bank and Gaza Strip have been augmented by hundreds of other obstacles: concrete blocks, earth ramparts, locked iron gates, fences, walls, surprise roadblocks, trenches and pits - a whole array of imprisonment methods. There is no other nation in the world today that is as incarcerated as the Palestinians have been, by us, for years. However, the majority of Israelis don't have a clue about the scale of the incarceration. The confusion that exists between the checkpoints on the 1967 Green Line, which are legitimate because they are the gates of entry into the country, and the internal checkpoints, which make up the majority and have no other purpose than to make life miserable for the population, helps blur the dimensions of the wickedness. Far from the eye, at checkpoints deep inside the West Bank and Gaza Strip an entire people is being subjected to humiliation as a matter of routine. This has nothing to do with security - or perhaps it does: the checkpoints are the great hothouse of terrorism. It is there that the hatred and the despair are fomented. "Humanitarian officers at the checkpoints?" That is a phrase that is as much an unacceptable internal contradiction as "enlightened occupation."

It's hard to imagine what it means to go through a checkpoint day in and day out - between Ramat Hasharon and Tel Aviv, say - with a foreign soldier who humiliates you, a huge line, and a good chance of being shamefully expelled back to where you came. In this spectacle, even the most humanitarian soldier plays a distinctly inhuman role. One day we will yet have to answer the questions that are not even on the public agenda now: Who gave us the right to control the fate of another people? By what right have we imprisoned millions of people for years? When that happens, the question of whether the soldier allowed the woman in labor to pass, or whether he knew Arabic, will become secondary, as it should be.:

http://www.un.org/unrwa/emergency/stories/deirammar.html

"Mustafa outlines some of the main problems encountered on a daily basis: the checkpoints, the UNRWA ID and the permits issued by the IDF granting passage into Israel or on the so-called 'settler roads' inside the West Bank. He says that with regard to the checkpoints, the fact that he is driving a clearly marked UN vehicle is of little consequence at crossing checkpoints. He maintains that if he ever tried to jump the inordinate queues at checkpoints to exercise his rights under the privileges and immunities accorded to UN staff members, the IDF would detain him.

He complains that the UN IDs don't help either. "UNRWA issues a number of different IDs and many times the IDF maintain that my ID is fake," he says. "It causes a lot of delay before they check our IDs and let us pass."

The permits issued by the IDF to enter Israel or use 'settler roads' inside the West Bank are often of little use. He says, "The IDF don't recognize their own documents and it makes no difference if we do or do not carry these permits. If the soldier at the checkpoint doesn't want to let us pass, we just don't pass."

"But," says Mustafa, "the delays are not our main concern. Traveling in the West Bank in a UN marked car is dangerous." He explains that while driving on 'settler roads' the mini-van carrying the mobile team is frequently stoned by Israeli settlers. Prior to the shooting last week in Ramallah there were two other incidents involving IDF firing shots at or in the direction of the UNRWA mini-van. "The problem is," says Mustafa, "that there is little official appreciation for the trouble UNRWA staff have to go through on a daily basis just to go to work.""

http://www.btselem.org/English/Freedom_of_Movement/Background.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/index.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/040111_Soldiers_Beat_Medic_Jamal_Abu_Hamade_near_Ofra.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Security_Forces_Violence/index.asp

Violence by Security Forces (B'Tselem)

"Violence against Palestinians by Israeli security forces is not new, and has accompanied the occupation for many years. However, the outbreak of the al-Aqsa intifada resulted in a significant increase in the number of beatings and abuse, in part because of the increased friction between Palestinians and Israeli security forces. According to many testimonies given to B'Tselem and other human rights organizations, the security forces use violence, at times gross violence, against Palestinians unnecessarily and without justification.

Most cases involve a "small dose" of ill-treatment, such as a slap, a kick, an insult, a pointless delay at checkpoints, or degrading treatment. These acts have become an integral part of Palestinian life in the Occupied Territories. However, from time to time, cases of severe brutality occur.

Many instances of abuse are not exposed because they have become the norm, and, for Palestinians, filing complaints is very time consuming. Furthermore, many Palestinian, primarily those who entered Israel without a permit, even refrain from filing complaints in cases of severe brutality because they fear that filing the complaint will harm them. Based on past experience, many do not file complaints because of lack of trust in the system, which tends not to believe them and to protect, rather than prosecute, those who injured them. The numerous restrictions on movement imposed by Israel in the Occupied Territories make it very difficult for Palestinians who want to file complaints to do so.

Israeli law, like international law, allows security forces to use reasonable force in self-defense and for duty-related purposes, such as dispersing rioters, arresting suspects resisting arrest, and preventing a detainee from fleeing. However, the law does not allow beatings, degradation, or ill-treatment of persons who are not rioting, resisting arrest, or fleeing. Also, the requirement that reasonable force be used in those instances where force is allowed demands that the measures taken be limited in severity to that which is necessary to prevent commission of the offense.

The acts described in testimonies given to B'Tselem and to other human rights organizations deviate greatly from what the law allows and constitute flagrant violations of human rights. In this context, an Israeli district court held that, "The exercise of illegal force by police officers is a phenomenon characteristic of regimes that are abhorrent, and undemocratic, of the kind that trample on human rights. It is misuse of the [police officer's] function."

Cases of beatings and abuse receive special condemnation. For example, the former Minister of Public Security, Shlomo Ben-Ami stated: "I relate with great severity to brutality by police officers. I think that that, among the possible sins committed by the police, this is gravest, because the police cannot fight violence by employing violence against citizens." Regarding another incident, in which a soldier beat a settler from Kedumim, the IDF Spokespersons responded that, "The IDF views with great severity the case and violence by IDF soldiers."

However, these condemnations remain solely declarative, while security forces, misusing their power, continue to abuse and beat Palestinians, among them minors. Both the army and the Border Police have yet to make it unequivocally clear to security forces serving in the Occupied Territories that it is absolutely forbidden to abuse and beat Palestinians, and their educational and information actions in this regard have been more lip service than a frank and honest attempt to uproot the phenomenon once and for all.

Until a few years ago, the Israel Police Force itself investigated claims of police brutality. In 1992, handling of these claims was transferred to the Department for the Investigation of Police (DIP), of the Ministry of Justice. B'Tselem forwards to the DIP testimonies it receives regarding police brutality against Palestinians, and requests that the matter be investigated and that the offending police officers be prosecuted. In many cases, the DIP responds that the file is closed, for reasons such as "offender unknown" or "insufficient proof." At times, the DIP decides to close a file following an incomplete investigation or when the complainant was unable to reach DIP offices to give testimony because the complainant's request to enter Israel was rejected. In cases where police officers are prosecuted, they receive light sentences.

The defense establishment's refusal to issue a message of this kind to forces serving in the Occupied Territories has far-reaching consequences. If a message is sent to security forces, it is that, even if the establishment does not accept acts of violence, it will not take measures against those who commit them. The effect of such a message is that the lives and dignity of Palestinians are meaningless and that security forces can continue, pursuant to the function they serve, to abuse, humiliate, and beat Palestinians with whom they come into contact."

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 02:49 PM

Carol, you keep referring to the term Occupied Territory. Since when is land captured in a war "occupied territory"? Read your history. And if you want to know the truth, many Arab people prefer living as Israeli citizens in Israel as opposed to being "free" in Palestine territory. They have good jobs and live in decent housing and are afforded all the benefits that any Israeli citizen has. How do I know this? Because I've been to Israel over 20 times. My parents are retired and live there. If you want to refer to Israel as "occupiers" and least have the fairness to call them "benevolent occupiers."

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 03:05 PM

The article on violence by security forces is an utter lie. In my recent visits to Israel I've observed many of these checkpoints and so no evidence of abuse. The soldiers were doing their job in a polite and professionasl manner. All your posts are based on heresay and you use every opportunity to put Israel in a bad light. As far as a neccesity of these checkpoints are concerned are you advocating that terrorists should have a clear road into Israeli land to do their dirty work. If you would visit the Israeli news web sites you would read about the dozens of terror acts that have been foiled by Israeli security at these checkpoints every week. You only read about the successful acts in the world media, you never read about the foiled attempts.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 03:08 PM

It is officailly "occupied territory." because Israel cannot claim the land without accepting or ejecting the people living on the territory. If they accept them, the number of "Arab People" living in Israel would have huge political power. After the next election Israel would no longer a "Jewish State". Ejecting the people is proving to be problematic because a majority of Israelis and almost all of the world is against that course of action. So Israel continues to occupy the land with her military but not to officially "claim" the land as the spoils of war.

Would you care to explain your definition of "benevolent"?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 03:34 PM

I find it interesting that you call what I've posted "hearsay", Little Brother, considering that most of them are first-hand testimonies given by the people who had these experiences.

Here are some first-hand accounts from members of the IDF.

http://www.refusersolidarity.net/default.asp?content_new=shovrim_shtika

http://www.refusersolidarity.net/

And you didn't read the articles very carefully.. If you had, you would have noticed that much of the problem with the checkpoints happens at checkpoints that are placed far inside of the West Bank and Gaza and do not separate Palestinians from entrance into Israel, but that prevent Palestinians from traveling to different locations within the West Bank and Gaza. How much time have you spent inside of the West Bank and Gaza?

More documentation:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/020418_Death_of_Dunya_Shtiye.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Obstructing_Medical_Treatment/Testimonies.asp

You are entirely incorrect about Arab-Israelis enjoying the same rights as Israeli Jews. There are many laws in Israel that discriminate against Arab/Israelis. For instance, laws governing ownership of land, and laws that prevent Palestinians from the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem from living with their Israeli spouses in Israel.

And to add to what JtS posted in response to your question about occupation, after the US invaded Iraq last year, Iraq was under occupation until the US handed sovereignty back to the Iraqis recently (on paper, anyway). Had the US stayed in Iraq and colonized it with Americans, as well as exerting control over the rights of the native Iraqis, that would have been an equivalent situation to what has been happening in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem since 1967. And if the US had done what Israel is doing in the "Occupied Territories", it would be in violation of the Geneva convention, to which it is a signatory, just as Israel is in violation of the Geneva Convention, to which Israel is a signatory.

If Israel really wanted security, it would end the occupation and move it's military forces to the Israeli side of the Green Line.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 03:58 PM

Even so Carol, they are an exception rather than the rule. You can't condemn the whole security force because of a few bad apples.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 04:05 PM

Jack, when the arabs were in control of Jerusalem the Jews were forbidden to pray at their holy places and their synagogues were bombed. Israel on the other hand have given them free reign on all their holy places. Do you remember when the terrorists were holed up in a church in Bethlehem the Israeli forces did not attack out of respect for the church. I wonder if they would have chosen the same restraint. The Israelis are not the "barbarians" you make them out to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 04:39 PM

Little Brother, they are not the exception. The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem have no human rights whatsoever. The Israeli government has power over every single aspect of their daily lives. They are very cruelly oppressed by the government of Israel. This kind of behavior is systematic and calculated to produce a specific result. I challenge you to read the testimonies from the people who have been subjected to this behavior on a daily basis, as well as from the members of the IDF who have spoken out about it.

Would you be willing to live under the conditions that the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are subjected to at the hands of the Israeli government? I doubt it. If not, why do you feel Israel has a right to subject others to these conditions?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 05:17 PM

These are the words of a young Israeli Jew who has spent time in the "Occupied Territories", not as a member of the IDF, and a young Israeli Jew who has spent time in Hebron as a member of the IDF...

http://www.refusersolidarity.net/default.asp?content_new=one_story_dt

To the Minister of Defense, Shaul Mofaz
From Daniel Tsal, ID 7-20015889
Re: My refusal to enlist in the IDF

"I hereby request to be released from mandatory service in the IDF due to reasons of conscience, and to allow me, instead, to do alternative service outside the army. If I should not be enabled to be thus exempted I shall be obliged to refuse service.

I considered this decision in the course of the past half year and made it after much hesitation, with a growing knowledge that no decision I make will be perfect and only as good as possible in the face of the complicated current situation of our country. In-depth study of what has happened and is happening in our region has led me to see that this step of refusal is legitimate and even necessary. It is not an act of subversion directed against the very foundations of democracy. The principles of the "only democracy in the Middle East" have become void of meaning as a result of the trampling of the rights of about three million people, and more indirectly, of the ongoing destruction of the foundations on which the State of Israel is supposed to be based.

During the past few months I have read a great deal on the issue, visited the occupied territories a number of times, volunteered for Halonot – an organization that enables cooperation between Israeli and Palestinian youth and carries out humanitarian work in the occupied territories. I also participated in some Ta'ayush activities and have witnessed my mother's work with CheckpointWatch. Once I witnessed the daily routines of the occupation I realized that I was not living in a civilized country which is waging a legitimate war upon its enemy, but rather, in a country that ethnically segregates between populations, so that some enjoy basic rights while the others are deprived of the most fundamental rights.

In a sense, when visiting checkpoints, I had a harder time watching a "well functioning" one than being present at a "problematic" spot, where IDF soldiers acted more violently than usual and prompted intervention from human rights activists. When I witnessed a boy who had only just finished high school calling the next in line, and with a condescending expression telling him to open his bag, I perceived the silent truth, the truth of the occupation: Nineteen year old boys who dominate an entire population, men, women and children.

I believe that if more Israeli girls and boys, before conscription, would come to the Palestinian villages under the Israeli occupation, the number of draft refusers would increase. A lot more people would realize how one-sided their education through the schools and media has been. A lot less people would accept military service as our obvious duty, and they would, perhaps, see that this army is no longer a "defense force" but has become an occupying force.

In such historical times, a sane individual must rise up against the system that makes the ongoing oppression possible. I have a moral obligation – not a choice but an obligation - to refuse to participate in the occupation and to struggle against the institutions that cancel such basic human rights. Any sane person, who has not yet been wholly overcome by fear and racism, must by dint of his basic humanity refuse to be part of an occupying and oppressive system such as the IDF has become.

Of course I don't for a moment believe that by refusing to be part of the military system I am relieved of responsibility for what is going on here and blameless. But the IDF is the main active tool used by the government in carrying out the above crimes and in continuing this insufferable occupation. And now I am called upon to take active part in that system. I consider every military role – whether it is doing combat service at the checkpoints or working in military offices in Tel Aviv – as complicit with the crime that is being committed here.

For the reasons stated above I hereby request to be released from military service and be allowed to perform alternative service outside the army."

http://www.refusersolidarity.net/default.asp?content_new=shovrim_shtika

Shovrim Shtika - Breaking the Silence: Soldiers Speak Out About their Service in Hebron

"Recently, we were released from active military duty. Hebron was the hardest, most confusing place we served. Until now, each of us dealt with the difficult things we saw there on our own. Our photo albums - souvenirs from the time we spent in Hebron - have remained, until now, sealed on our respective bedroom shelves. Since we were released, we came to realize that these memories are common to all the guys who served alongside us. We decided to speak out. We decided to tell our stories. Hebron is not on another planet; it's an hour's drive from Jerusalem. But Hebron is light years from Tel Aviv. So we decided to bring Hebron to Tel Aviv. Now, its up to you to come, look, and listen. To understand what's going on there...

...If I'm standing at a checkpoint that prevents people from going somewhere, somewhere it's obvious they need to get to, like from the grocery store to their house, and they can't get there because I'm standing in their way, it really doesn't matter how polite I am. I don't have to behave cruelly for it to be unjust. I can be the most courteous person in the world and still be unfair. Because from their point of view, it makes no difference if I'm a nice guy. I still don't let them go home. What difference does it make if I try to be nice? Or humiliate them? The very existence of the checkpoint is humiliating.

As long as I'm doing my duty according to the regulations, something completely legal, I'm doing something that is inflicting pain on people, harming them unnecessarily. I guard, or enable the existence of, 500 Jewish settlers at the expense of 15,000 people under direct occupation in the H2 area and another 140,000-160,000 in the surrounding areas of Hebron. It makes no difference whatsoever how pleasant I am to them or how pleasant my company commander is, it simply… won't make it any better. I will still be their enemy. There will still be a conflict between us. And sometimes, the fact that I may be nice to them will only cause me trouble because then they'll have someone to argue with, someone to turn to. But there is nothing I can tell them. You can't go through the checkpoint because you can't, and that's it!! It's an order, based on security considerations.

As long as you want to protect these 500 people, that's what you have to do. As long as you want to keep these folks in Hebron alive and enable them to go about their existence in a reasonable manner, you have to destroy the reasonable existence of all the rest. There's no alternative. For the most part, these are real security considerations. They're not imaginary. If you want to protect them from being shot at from above, you have to occupy all the hills around them. There are people living on those hills. They have to be subdued, they have to be detained, they have to be hurt at times. But as long as the government has decided that the settlement in Hebron will remain in tact, even without undue cruelty, the cruelty is there, and it doesn't matter whether or not we act nice."

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 05:38 PM

You only have the arabs to blame. If they would stop shooting at innocent Israeli civilians these check points would be unnecessary. IDF stands for Israeli Defense Force meaning they are defending their citizens. If you know a better way then please tell. Why don't you shed some light instead of cursing the darkness?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 06:12 PM

You've got it the wrong way around, Little Brother. The only reason they are shooting at Israelis is because they want the Israelis to end the occupation. If Israel would end the occupation, the attacks on Israelis would no longer serve any purpose.

IDF stands for Israeli Defense Force meaning they are defending their citizens. If you know a better way then please tell. Why don't you shed some light instead of cursing the darkness?

I already have, about a half dozen times on this thread alone. The answer is...

END THE OCCUPATION

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 06:22 PM

WASHINGTON (AP) - A major American Muslim charity and seven of its senior officers were charged Tuesday with illegally funneling millions of dollars to support Hamas, a Palestinian terrorist organization blamed for dozens of deadly suicide bomber attacks in Israel.

WASHINGTON (AP) - A major American Muslim charity and seven of its senior office


According to the indictment, Holy Land's main officers met with other Hamas activists in October 1993 to figure out how to back Hamas and also conceal their true aims from authorities.


``The attendees noted the danger of attracting the terrorist perception, which would undoubtedly compromise their efforts in supporting violent jihad (Muslim holy war),'' the indictment said.


Fund-raising events were held at mosques, conventions, seminars and other programs in which speakers, including some of the Holy Land defendants, ``performed skits and songs which advocated the destruction of the state of Israel and glorified the killing of Jewish people,'' the indictment says.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 06:30 PM

This is what Ami Ayalon, former head of Israeli Shin Bet has to say about ending the occupation:

"I favor unconditional withdrawal from the Territories -- preferably in the context of an agreement, but not necessarily: what needs to be done, urgently, is to withdraw from the Territories. And a true withdrawal, which gives the Palestinians territorial continuity in a Transjordan linked to Gaza, open to Egypt and Jordan. If they proclaim their own state, Israel should be the first to recognize it and to propose state to state negotiations, without conditions, on the basis of the Clinton proposals, to resolve all pending problems."


Here's the whole interview with Ami Ayalon:

http://www.coalitionofwomen4peace.org/articles/ami-ayalon.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 06:50 PM

Where is Israel's Daniel Ellsberg? (Haaretz)   

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=234122&contrassID=assID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=234122

By Akiva Eldar

"Daniel Ellsberg, the U.S. Department of Defense official who in 1971 leaked classified documents subsequently known as the Pentagon Papers to The New York Times, has recently published his memoirs. The book presents evidence showing that for 23 years, five U.S. presidents waged a war (in Indochina) they knew America could never win.

In a tape recording, Lyndon Johnson is heard saying to a friend that he does not believe that the Vietnamese will ever surrender. "At the same time, he sent young men to their deaths," Ellsberg bemoans, reminding us that 58,000 U.S. soldiers and more than 2 million Asian civilians lost their lives in that very war...

...According to Ellsberg, Ariel Sharon's war-on-terror policy is costing the lives of more Israelis than it is saving, and his opinion has significant backing from among the upper echelons of the Israeli establishment. The ongoing decline in moral standards is indeed eroding their strength, but in backrooms, there are still experts who are saying things and even writing papers indicating that top-level political and military officials are knowingly feeding the public with falsehoods. In their assessments of the current situation, no inkling of a basis can be found for the promise that Palestinian terror can be stopped without Israel putting an end to the occupation."

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 07:08 PM

Jack, when the arabs were in control of Jerusalem the Jews were forbidden to pray at their holy places and their synagogues were bombed. Israel on the other hand have given them free reign on all their holy places. Do you remember when the terrorists were holed up in a church in Bethlehem the Israeli forces did not attack out of respect for the church. I wonder if they would have chosen the same restraint. The Israelis are not the "barbarians" you make them out to be.

I didn't make anyone out to be a barbarian. I simple explained why the "occupied territories" are called that instead of part of Israel. You asked, I answered.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 08:09 PM

You've got it the wrong way around, Little Brother. The only reason they are shooting at Israelis is because they want the Israelis to end the occupation. If Israel would end the occupation, the attacks on Israelis would no longer serve any purpose.

I want the occupation to end too. I hope it does, and soon.

However, Palestinian terrorism started long before the occupation began and groups like Hamas have categorically stated that every inch of Israel belongs to them and they will stop at nothing until they have reclaimed every inch of Israel.

May I suggest that you read the Hamas Charter before declaring how and when Palestinian resistance to Israel will stop. Clearly, the Palestinians own words speak for themselves.

The Hamas Charter

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:41 PM

Carol dear, the occupation has nothing to do with the shootings. Arabs were always attacking Jews in Hebron long before the occupation. Have you ever heard about the 1929 Arab massacre of innocent Jews in Hebron. What was their excuse then??

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:50 PM

Alonzo is very right. These groups don't want a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli state living in peace. They want a Palestinian state with no Israel. If the Palestinians are so interested in having their state why don't they do more to wipe these groups out. Not only are they not wiping them out but are funding them in secret. Where do you think a lot of American money given to help rebuild the Palestinians went to? Certainly not to the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:54 PM

And Carol, besides, Hebron is not part of the occupied territories.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:55 PM

I'll answer Little Brother first.

The Arabs who committed that atrocity were wrong, obviously. Their greivances were legitimate, but their methods were not. Their grievances were that they were having their homes sold out from under them by absentee landlords to the European immigrants who were also disposessing them of their livelihoods.

However, the people who committed that atrocity should have been the ones who were punished for it, not all of the Palestinian people for all time.

Unfortunately, the Arab man who was the leader of the group of Arab extremists who committed that massacre was pardoned by an Englishman who was of Jewish ancestry, and then appointed by him to the position of Mufti, against the wishes of the majority of the Arabs in the region. The Mufti then went on to commit further atrocities against both European Jews, as well as Palestinians. And the Palestinians have been punished ever since for the actions of this man, whom they didn't even want, and who was appointed to his position of power by a Jew. Can you imagine how they might feel pretty victimized by this? Maybe it's time to stop collectively punishing the Palestinians for something that they, collectively, had no control over.

And I do have the historical documentation to back up my assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:04 PM

Carol, you seem to have an answer for everything. I'm impressed. Can't say you haven't been doing your homework.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:07 PM

Alonzo, the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem is the best way possible to ensure that Hamas will gain power. The PLO/PA had the support of the majority of Palestinians as long as it looked to the Palestinians like they were going to be granted their independent state. The government of Israel has done everything in its power to undermine the PA, and to cause the Palestinians to lose faith in the ability of the PA and the PLO to bring them what they need and want, which is freedom. The majority of Palestinians do not want to destroy Israel. They want to be free and for Israel to leave them alone in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

The more Israel oppresses the Palestinians, the more powerful Hamas becomes. If Israel wants to ensure that Hamas never gets what it wants, the best thing it can do is to support the moderate Palestinians instead of undermining them, and give them something of their own to fight for, instead of only giving them something (bondage) to fight against

There are plenty of Israeli Jews who want all of the Arabs/Palestinians removed from all of Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. You are holding all Palestinians responsible for the attitudes of the most extreme Palestinians. Should we not also, then, hold all Jews or at least all Israelis responsible for attitudes of their most extreme members?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:08 PM

Thank you, Little Brother.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Alonzo M. Zilch (inactive)
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:31 PM

There are plenty of Israeli Jews who want all of the Arabs/Palestinians removed from all of Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. You are holding all Palestinians responsible for the attitudes of the most extreme Palestinians. Should we not
also, then, hold all Jews or at least all Israelis responsible for attitudes of their most extreme members?

Actually CarolC, the extremists in Israel who want that are are a very small percentage of the population. Before the only party (Kach) that has advocated that position was made illegal by an act of the Israeli Knesset, they had garnered only about 1/2 of 1% of the vote. In other words, when you refer "plenty of Israeli Jews," you're being deceptive and misleading. The people in Israel who think that way are a tiny fringe.

I've said quite clearly that I want the occupation to end. I want the occupation to end now. The one thing that we both agree on is that the occupation has turned into a disaster for both sides.

When you say that I'm "holding all Palestinians responsible for the attitudes of the most extreme Palestinians," you are putting words in my mouth that were never there. A propaganda tactic that only cheapens your arguement.

What I said, is that Palestinian terrorism started long before the occupation. That is a fact. What I also said was that ending the occupation will not end the attacks on Israel. I said that because that is the stated, and constantly reapeated, policy of a large Palestinian organization whose popular support has been shown to be equal to, if not greater in some places, than that of Arafat's PA. And that, too, is a fact.

You ask: "Should we not also, then, hold all Jews or at least all Israelis responsible for attitudes of their most extreme members?"

Well, clearly, the fact that Hamas and the Al-Aqsa Brigade (a part of Arafat's own Fatah movement) make it a point to randomly target all Israelis -- men, women, children, babies -- with their terrorism, that is what has been happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:31 PM

Carol, it's really strange that when peace looks near and deals have been made then the Hamas strikes and quickly puts an end to all the talks. It seems that they are the one's that are undermining the process.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:44 PM

Hebron is in the occupied West Bank:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:56 PM

My mistake.