BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:16 PM

Bert, I have not read Conan Doyle's "Sir Nigel" or "The White Company". I have read the Sherlock Holmes stories and "The Lost World", and I thought they were marvelously well written tales. "The Lost World", in particular....it's a simply wonderful flight of imagination. It's a shame they have never managed to make an even half-decent movie based on it, but that's Hollywood for you.

For one thing, they insist in implausibly putting some good looking women (at least one, anyway) in the expedition party (for the usual reasons) which inevitably screws up the story utterly....the chances of a woman going along on such an expedition at that time in history would have been virtually nil.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 01:37 PM

"The semicolon has two uses: As the period's cousin, and as the comma's big brother."

I think that the "semicolon" is invariably "half-assed".

I'll take two complete statements. I assume if one follows another, they are related contextually.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 03:36 PM

Frank, the use of the semicolon is never (as far as I can see) required for joining two clauses. It's a matter of the writer's style.

Now, suppose I left out the parenthetical and said, "The use of the semicolon is never required for joining two clauses. It's a matter of the writer's style." Okay, you'd buy that, and it's perfectly grammatical.

But suppose I as the writer feel that those two clauses really amount to one grand thought, more closely related than merely two different statements of principle. I might want to indicate that closeness by using the semicolon. If I were speaking that larger thought, my speech cadence would indicate that closeness, and I'd want the written form to show that.

I know you don't like it, but it's not wrong either way.

In a way, I see the semicolon in that sentence as the equivalent of inserting ", but instead", joining the two parts of the combined thought.

The only sin would be to do a comma run-on to accomplish the same end.

I assume you are not criticizing the use of semicolon(s) for a complex series. If you are, then we've got a serious disagreement.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 08:05 PM

A person can be a good writer and be worth reading without being a great writer. Tony Hillerman, for example. I have been out west quite a bit, gone hiking and so forth, not just driven through. Sometimes I can read a passage by Tony Hillerman which evokes the desert so vividly that I can almost smell the hot, rock-scented air.

However, his women characters seem made of cardboard - mere stick figures put in there to advance the plot.

One day I was reading a novel where a man with a name like McManany might have been the villain. Then a man named Taggert might be the villain. I knew that Taggert was the villain, because no Hillerman villain would have a soft name with a lot of M's and N's in it. At that point I quit reading Hillerman.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:52 PM

Well, I do have to admit I was a bit disappointed in Hillerman's last novel, but he is in his 80's and in not the best of health, so I give him a little leeway. I love his main characters, Joe Leaphorn and Jm Chee. I identify so strongly with a lot of the spiritualism he writes about and love the country most of his novels take place in. His works have always engaged me and I found several of the women characters to be much more than "cardboard." I think of his novels as fast, good reads and I greatly respect him as a person esp. considering the honour the Dinee/Navajo Nation have bestowed on him.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 08:55 AM

I suspect it's Hillerman's spiritualism that makes it not work for me.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 09:09 AM

I never cared too much for Hillerman. His characters always seemed not to be real, but rather, his version of what I felt he thought someone wanted to read about. Like fantasy.

I just finished the best book I've read in YEARS -- The Highest Tide -- the first novel by Jim Lynch. It brought home yet again how important an interesting pov (in this case, a young boy) is to good writing.

I think that's one of the strong suits to Dean Koontz -- an unabashed fantasy writer. In fact, in that sort of way, Koontz is like the anti-Hillerman. Koontz is writing fantasy, but with strikingly real people, while Hillerman is proposing real life drama with stick figures.

Koontz points of view are endlessly fascinating and quite often REALLY funny.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 09:54 AM

Koontz is very a good writer, but his characters are all the same: A traditional family who, through a comittment to the protestant work ethic, have moved into the middle class. Something evil comes along and threatens to take away what they have got. He is a bit like Ayn Rand, although a lot more talented.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 10:11 AM

Oh, there's no doubt about the similarity throughout his writing. He even repeats motifs -- Elvis, dogs, elevated menial/manual labor.

One thing he does often that I enjoy is making a strong female protagonist that saves herself rather than being rescued by some male hero. I guess I kinda like that because I was raised by a woman who was never "rescued" by a man.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 10:49 AM

Hmmm...never have liked Koonzt.

As for Hillerman, it's not his spirituality, but that of the Navajo and, sometimes, Hopi Nations. Also, far from being fantasy, his portrayal of reservation life and people is spot on. But, different strokes for diff. folks, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 12:42 PM

"But, different strokes for diff. folks, eh?"

As a guy who make a living in the arts, I thank God every day that that's true!

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 01:25 PM

Some people are instinctively drawn to spiritual themes, and I think that would include me and Kat. Other people are instinctively put off by them.

This says nothing about the quality of the writing, but rather says something about the background, tastes, and interests of the reader.

I hardly read anything that doesn't have a spiritual theme anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 01:54 PM

"This says nothing about the quality of the writing, but rather says something about the background, tastes, and interests of the reader."


                Your certainly right about that, but I can't even get interested in something with a spiritual theme. I stay away from science fiction and fantasy as well.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 02:03 PM

Well, it's hard to be interested in something one simply can't relate to. That's why I don't read novels about rich people's love affairs in Hollywood or whatever...but they seem to be very popular. ;-) On the other hand, I love spirituality, some (though not most) science fiction, and some (though not most) fantasy. I also like history.

What do you most like to read about, Rinslinger?

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 10:20 PM

Right now I'm reading "One Hundred Years of Solitude" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I'm also reading some material about the life of Big Bill Haywood, a book entitled "Big Bill Haywood & The Radical Union Movement," by a professor named Joseph R. Conlin, and some other stuff.

          I think Haywood was right in recognizing that in order for labor to be effective, they had to be organized world wide. He had trouble gaining an audience when he lived, I just think he might have lived a hundred years before his time.

          I will buy anything Robert B. Parker publishes, and read it within a few days time. It's a compulsion I can't explain. He is suppose to be the heir apparent to Raymond Chandler, but I find him to be much more compelling than Chandler.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 10:28 PM

Ah. Well, that all sounds pretty good to me.

Raymond Chandler was amazing. I read all his books a few years ago, one right after the other. Went on a big Chandler spree for awhile.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 11:39 PM

Hmm..I'll have to watch for some of Parker's books. I like what I read HERE.

If you like Chandler, you probably would like two Mudcat story threads: The first of the True Detective story threads and, The Return of Blake Madison.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 12:10 AM

kat - I'll have to try the Mudcat story threads. How were they composed?

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 12:16 AM

You may read all about them in This Thread, Frank. We haven't really kept at them the way we used to. They usually just started with someone's bright idea for a plot, so posted and those of us who wanted to added our own characters, etc. There is an index of them on that thread, a ways down, one of my postings. Ah, Here it is.

Have fun!

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 07:45 AM

Thanks, but just for the record, my names not Frank. I have a tendancy to be frank sometimes, but...

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:28 AM

Oops, sorry about that! Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Janie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:38 PM

Chiming in very late, John McPhee is the writer whose skill I most admire.   

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:14 PM

This is a little off topic, but the person on Mudcat whose writing skill I think surpasses all others among us is Lonesome E.J. The man is positively superb at writing. 100% professional quality.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:41 PM

Me, too, LH, along with PeterT.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 09:56 PM

Oh, yeah. I forgot. Yes, Peter T. is also just about untouchable in that regard. I haven't read as much of his material.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 03:30 AM

Thanks for the compliment, Little Hawk. I love Jen's stuff, and your stuff, and Amos and Kat's, but as an example of good writing, I would point to a piece of Peter T's work that was pure in concept and execution. It came at the end of the first Blake Madison story. I had brought it to a slam-bang detective end. Then I had added a post-script that I thought was one of the better tear-jerker endings I've tried. Then Peter weighed in with this ....


And then it was late.
"Is it too late for us, Baby?" I asked, pouring her another drink.
"I'll tell you what, Blake. Nice name, Blake, by the way. Reminds me of the poet."
"Madison remind you of anyone?"
"President, right?"
"Right, Baby."
"Well, if he doesn't appear on any small or medium sized money, I don't know anything about him."
"What happened to you, Baby? You're a smart girl, beautiful, but you sure are connected to a lot of dismal men."
"I tell you what, Blake. Parting gift. It's like this. When I was a little girl, you know, back in wherever it was, my father and my mother used to fight all the time, like hell, all the time, you know."
"Yeah, I know."
"Well, when you're a kid you think, well, you think it's your fault, or you should be able to do something about it." She looked at me, with those violet eyes. "You think you should be able to do something about it." She was starting to cry.
"So, Baby, so what did you do?"
"So, what I did was -- sorry. So when he hit me I used to let him do it. It was like I was some kind of absorbent cotton. You know, the hunks of fluffy stuff you make sheep out of in Sunday school. Like I could absorb all his hate just by standing there, just letting him take it out on me. I used to let him do it. Bang, bang, he'd hit me, and I'd suck it in. I thought I could make it all right. I'd take the hate, and they would love each other, and me, and we would all love each other. You know, magic, kid's stuff. Poof, the world is beautiful." She held her drink in her hand, feeling the roundness of the glass.
"Remember, Blake, how you asked me once, a long time ago, about suffering --"
"Yeah, sure, Baby, a lifetime ago."
"Well that's what I was there for. To make it all go away. That was my role, my magic. So when I grew up, I just carried on, you know."
If there was music playing somewhere, it wasn't nice music.
"The thing is, Blake, there's a lot of hate in the world, a lot of good things that people are just trying to fuck up. It's like love -- you start something, it goes along for awhile, and then, who knows --"
"Entropy?"
"Huh?"
I looked at her. "Everything unravels unless you work at it, and even then ---"
She smiled ruefully. "Well, you've been there, Blake, I can tell."
It was even later than I thought. She reached over for her purse. She was getting ready to go.
"So when I went on the street -- yeah, I went on the street -- that was what I tried to think. Here I am, the Sunday school sheep, dabbing up all the mudpuddles, all the fuckedup sadness of all these fuckedup men. Stupid, really. I was the fuckedup one."
She struggled to open her purse to check to see if she had enough money to get wherever it was she was going. I waved some of her own money, the stuff she had given me earlier; but she shook her head.
I took another sip of my Scotch, trying to think of how to keep her from going. All I could think of was: "As Holden Caulfield used to say, you could scrape forever and you could still never get rid of all the FUCK YOUs written on all the walls of the world."
She nodded, got up from her barstool and turned to me. "Anyway, Blake, that was a long way round to a kind of goodbye. You're sweet, and we've had a lot of laughs, but I am all absorbed up. I can't take your pain, and I can't mend your threads. No fluff left, I'm afraid."
I gave her a look that I hoped said how much I understood. She was alright, was Baby Gentry. Perhaps in another time, and another place, it would have worked out. Perhaps not. She reached over and kissed me, once, on the mouth.
"Sorry", she said, "I taste like the salt on a margarita, without the margarita."
I said I didn't mind. She walked a little unsteadily to the door. I saw her silhouetted briefly in the dire purple glow from the flashing sign across the street. For a moment, it was as if she had become a neon angel at the gates of some kind of Paradise Betrayed.
And then she was gone forever.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 09:41 AM

Goddam, that's fine.

I wish Peter were around more.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 02:28 PM

Man, what a killer ending. It gives me chills when I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Slag
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 02:55 PM

OK. Here's the deal on colons or semi-colons. A colon is used for "eyes wide open" as in :) or :0 or even :Q. < (that's a period, not a dot). And, of course a semi-colon is not to be taken seriously ;). It's so simple...

Actually the colon says "Note what follows" and the semi-colon says "Such as...".

Its interesting to me to observe who has posted to this thread and how often. Good writers all, I'd say.

Question: If a comma links a related series of words or short phrases, isn't it redundant to put a comma before the "and" in the penultimate item? For example, "-----, -----, -----, and -----." I believe the correct punctuation should be "-----, -----, ----- and -----." Any thoughts on that one?

Also (I should note in passing) LH seems to like to get the last word in. There's nothing wrong with that but don't get too comfortable LH. I gotta feeling that when ALL is said and done, it will be Chongo writing your obit!

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 04:00 PM

Yeah, you're probably right about that, Slag. The character always outlives the author in the end.

But here's a tip. There's one way to unencumber yourself of one of those endless, useless arguments that people get in on political threads and other such contentious threads. You simply let the other guy have the last word...and you never respond to it. ;-)

Eventually he forgets all about it and goes off to fight with somebody else instead of you. It saves much pointless aggravation for the one who is wise enough not to insist on having the last word.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:13 PM

Well, I made it to the final cut for the editing job. I just sent in my final editing test. The Sr. Ed. said to think of it as a "tie breaker" so wish me luck?! He also paid me some pretty high compliments, including that my previous two editing tests were "spot on!"

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:20 PM

Well done, Kat.

Slag, the use of series commas traditionally has always included the use of one before the "and", if there are commas to be used at all. Your rebuttal to this guideline is logical because of the meaning of the word and, but as a guide to the reading eye, the comma is useful.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:24 PM

That, is, so, true. Where, would, we, be, without, commas?

Well done, Kat.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:33 PM

Slag asked:

Question: If a comma links a related series of words or short phrases, isn't it redundant to put a comma before the "and" in the penultimate item? For example, "-----, -----, -----, and -----." I believe the correct punctuation should be "-----, -----, ----- and -----." Any thoughts on that one?

Slag, style manuals vary (and argue vehemently) on this. I was taught in grade school, as I suppose you were, to omit that comma, but I have been converted to think that it's better to put the comma before the "and" except in certain special cases.

Let's put a series sentence down both ways, and see if there is or at least could be a difference in meaning:

"The parking lot contained about a hundred VW beetles, painted differently: red, mustard green, blue, and yellow."
    or
"The parking lot contained about a hundred VW beetles, painted differently: red, mustard green, blue and yellow."

Now, can you tell me about that second example? Were the VWs all single colors, or was one or more of them painted two-tone? If the practice is to place a comma before "and" in a series, the absence of the comma is significant, and there's at least one two-tone VW there. If the practice is always to leave out the last comma, there's no way to tell the function of the word "and".

One might go further with the VW paint scheme list:
"The parking lot contained about a hundred VW beetles, painted differently: shocking pink, stripes and polka dots, red, Kelly green, black, mustard green, waving American flags, and blue and yellow."
In such a listing, the presence or absence of the comma is even more clearly significant.

Additionally, I've read somewhere in a book on the English language and its development (but don't ask me where, because I've forgotten) that the "and" is not historically a substitute for a comma, as I think is implied in your question.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:26 PM

As very germane to this thread and a gift to those who read it, the following post (in another thread) by Katlaughing:

""Why does anybody tell a story?" Ms. L'Engle once asked, even though she knew the answer.

"It does indeed have something to do with faith," she said, "faith that the universe has meaning, that our little human lives are not irrelevant, that what we choose or say or do matters, matters cosmically."

What a beautiful and elegant way to put it. And, by what an incredible storyteller. Sorry to hear of her passing. Thanks for this thread."

---

The quote is from the late Madeleine l'Engle.

It struck me in some deep place.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Slag
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 08:19 PM

Yes Kat! Congratulations do seem in order, thus far at any rate, and may it be so to your desired end.

Good point Dave. When the relation of the words in the list is not clear (in your example monotone vs two-tone) the comma and the conjunction delineate the nature of the relationship. But, such is not always the case! And where there is much diversity as in your further example, the use of the semi-colon does the job much better than the comma (in my humble opinion).

A living language is always in a state of flux and grammar and usage are bound to shift. The spoken word is much more dynamic than the written word which is invariably slower to change but change it does.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 08:53 PM

Slag said:

A living language is always in a state of flux and grammar and usage are bound to shift. The spoken word is much more dynamic than the written word which is invariably slower to change but change it does.

Hear, hear!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Janie
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 09:32 PM

I'm not at all surprised you have wowed them, Kat. Will continue to send good thoughts and energy your way.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 11:52 PM

Thank you, all, very much! I hope I hear from them very soon. I will be sure to let you know, either way.

As to commas, here's what the Chicago Manual of Style has to say, in one Q&A section:

Please see CMOS 6.18: "The comma, aside from its technical uses in mathematical, bibliographical, and other contexts, indicates the smallest break in sentence structure. It denotes a slight pause. Effective use of the comma involves good judgment, with ease of reading the end in view."

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 11:05 PM

It seems to me that commas are hugely overused. They slow down the reader, and many times don't add to clarity or meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:23 AM

Only, I think, when the writer, in an attempt to qualify his statements becomes, overtly, hesitant in his prose, not to mention unclear in his object do commas become, unfortunately, an epidement, or obstacle, to good writing. I much prefer parentheses (at least, when used appropriately).

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:37 AM

Or ellipses ala BillD...you know (I just love using them, don't you?) they pause, refresh...give one a moment (if not more) to really take in the essence of what is being said (provided the writer is clear and succinct or just trailing off)...ah, the ellipses...I could write a poem to them (but then I'd have to find my rhyming dictionary!)

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: GUEST,Minerva
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 09:28 AM

"Brevity" is not an absolute of good writing. We had this mis-guided concept pounded into our heads in school, along with other screwy ideas like, "never plagiarize".

Dickens was never brief. Neither were Victor Hugo, Lev Tolstoy, Vladimir Nabokov, or Paul the Apostle. These are only a few examples of folks who wrote some of the most beautiful descriptions, and developed some of the most fascinating characters in literature, in particular, by not being brief.

It's my opinion that brevity became a fad in the middle of the last century, by establishment types who were over-impressed with Hemingway and others, some of whom were actually pretty good at descriptions despite the fact that they were brief. Magazine editors have taken over the gospel of brief, and it's obvious that their approach has generally hackneyed and clichee'd the english language into sappy pulp. Hemingway once said Beryl Markham "... could write rings around us all..." Yet she was not brief. (He was right.)

It's not as though all modern stuff is brief - you can use the typical Seteven King novel as a doorstop.

It is my opinion that for most kinds of writing, it is the ability to let the reader feel what the character is feeling, or understand what the character is understanding (or think they understand the situation better than the character!) that is an absolute of good writing.

If it's brief, that's fine. Well-done Haiku can give a glimpse of this sometimes. But writing doesn't have to be brief to accomplish it. Who has ever looked at the sky the same way again after lying on the field of Borodino with Prince Bolkonski? Or heard a lion roar, and not felt the sweat on the steel rod in your hand, after hunkering in the grass with Lakweit?

Screw brief.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 09:51 AM

Well, said, Minerva. It's about time someone challenged the common assumption that brevity in writing is best, and I think you are quite correct about how the fad for brevity got started in the mid-twentieth century. It has produced some good writing...and some really dreadful stuff too.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 10:50 AM

Well, I would qualify it -- make any exposition as brief as possible, but no briefer. I think elegance is a better word. It applies to the way you choose words in structuring sentences so that you don't need to say the same thing in twenty words IF it can be said as well or better in ten.

Brevity that detracts from communication is a sheer waste of brevity.
But that is not what is meant when writing advisors urge brevity. They are battling excess, the kind of long-windedness that comes from a paucity of good thinking.

"Screw brevity." is a wonderful, ironic, and elegant sentence. Brava.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 11:38 AM

They are battling excess, the kind of long-windedness that comes from a paucity of good thinking.

Exactly.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:11 PM

Brevity is best. Period.

From Hardy's The Mayor of Casterbridge
"The thunder of bowls echoed from the backyard; swingels hung behind the blower of the chimney; and ex-poachers and ex-gamekeepers, whom squires had persecuted without a cause, sat elbowing each other- men who in past times had met in fights under the moon, till lapses of sentences on the one part, and loss of favor and expulsion from service on the other, brought them here together to a common level, where they sat calmly discussing old times."

Hardy improved
"This was a place where old poachers and old gamekeepers could meet in peace and talk about the old times."

Do you see how much clearer and more concise my re-phrasing is? I have no doubt I could render the entire 330 page novel down to 42 pages, and possibly 35 if I got rid of all of the adjectives. I am also quite sure that, using my method, one could read Moby Dick on a flight from Chicago to Omaha and still have time to peruse the in-flight magazine. One could read the entire Old Testament while waiting to get his teeth cleaned. The House of the Seven Gables could be finished on two or three commutes to one's workplace by simply reading at the stoplights.

Those who argue against brevity unconsciously argue for the end of reading and the novel in our culture. This is a fast-moving world, and the only effective way to allow literature to compete with film, music etc is to make it more conveniently consummable. The Hardy quote lies steaming on the table before one's eyes like a huge plate of mutton and potatoes, and today's reader would frankly rather have a taco.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:13 PM

They may also be battling bloviation: pretentious use of overly flowery language designed to impress the reader with the utter brilliance of the author. Elegance is a wonderful thing, assuredly. Opulence and bloviation, on the other hand, can go way too far...

It's fun to make fun of it now and then by doing it deliberately and ostentatiously, though. ;-) Just talk as if you have a potatoe lodged in one cheek, are speaking through a wod of cotton wool, and holding your tea cup with one pinkie sticking delicately out to the side, whilst gazing superciliously down your elevated Roman nose at the pathetic examples of humanity for whom you have deigned to drop a few petals of your divine wisdom. And pity them.

Ah! The ennui of it all! Pearls before swine, really.

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:28 PM

Mind your step, there, good Hack. Arrogance preceedeth a great fall.

The relish of personal superiority has no there there.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What are the absolutes of good writing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:28 PM

There is a certain type of brevity prevalent in this culture that is not admirable in the least, because it is just aggressive primitivism admiring itself in the mirror. It's like a teenage kid who walks up to a magnificent Renaissance fresco, looks at it uncomprehendingly, and scrawls "Fuck You!" on it with a magic marker. He then goes off feeling quite proud of himself for having confronted the elegant past with his fresh and modern outlook. He knows he is superior to anything that happened more than five minutes ago. He takes no prisoners. Mercy is a concept that has never even occurred to him.