BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 06 May 05 - 09:05 AM

Keith A, there may be an element of truth in your comment:
"And I remember that everyone on the mainland sympathised with and supported the NI Civil Rights movement. A couple of years, months even, and public opinion would have forced the changes you are now anticipating".

But how come public opinion didn't force those changes anytime during the long years between the 1920s & the 1970s?

The fact remains, that successive British Governments for over fifty years, were well aware that discrimination & jerrymandering were rife in NI, and they did nothing about it.

Having said that, this in no way excuses murder or terroriosm by any group, which is something I condemn without exception.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:21 AM

Some brits are unbelievable. If your country had been occupied by a foreign army and your people persecuted for centuries, not only would you be having red, white and blue street parties to celebrate the end of the occupation, but you would be singing twenty verse songs about the whole debacle for the next few centuries.

And you would also justify any means used to achieve that end, martyr those who died defending your country and decorate the living.

Get over yourselves. Move on. Empire builders sometimes have to watch the bulldozers move in and put right what you have spent so much money, life and time trying to destroy.

Meanwhile we will gloat for the next few centuries. Sounds fair to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Rat
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:34 AM

Nurse get the medication!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 06 May 05 - 11:44 AM

Kieth A said, "And I remember that everyone on the mainland sympathised with and supported the NI Civil Rights movement. A couple of years, months even, and public opinion would have forced the changes you are now anticipating.
But then came the bombs."

Wrong Keith then came Bloody Sunday. That changed everything. I know. I was there. There was little or no support for the IRA at that time but when British Paratroopers assassinated 14 innocent people at that now infamous Civil Rights rally things changed for ever. The IRA's numbers swelled.

As far British public oppinion of the nationalists cause in N. Ireland I think Guest May 5, 10:00 am is closer to the mark in terms of empathy, just another Paddy right Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: The Curator
Date: 06 May 05 - 01:12 PM

In 1969 Catholics got off their knees and the result has been the electoral sucess that we are watching unfold now. Gerry Adams vote is up again in West Belfast dispite the churned out propaganda against the party in recent months. As I have always stated on this site, before you run of at the mouth about the Northern Bank robbery what proof have you besides the words of parties who fear the sucess of S.F. and a police force who has the worst record of any European Police force in the courts of human justice/rights. The D.U.P/Third Force are going well too, Paul Berry said he is well up ! and wants a rub down. Sammy Wilson said it's like a bare buff nature walk ! ( You will need to be from North of Ireland to understand this).

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Jimmy C
Date: 06 May 05 - 01:25 PM

"But getting back to the Bank riad, I believe that this operation was too sophisticated for even the P.I.R.A. My money would be on the possibility that it was the S.A.S."

I LOVE DAVID IKE AND HAVE 2 PILLS FOR BREAKFAST FOLLOWED BY A PROPER LUNCH

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: The Curator
Date: 06 May 05 - 01:41 PM

Jimmy, every time Sinn Fein made gain within the last few years there were forces working against them, Stormont spying raid, Castlereagh barracks raid and the Northern Bank robbery (no one ever charged with any of them) but it created enough stink and for Unionists to say it was the movement. Each of these occured within days of a sucess. And as ard said about the charges to be brought against a man for Omagh, that was the day before the election! Dirty tricks branch, we seen it all before, it failed then and will fail again. Martin just won his seat a few minutes ago.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 05 - 02:50 PM

Kieth A said, "And I remember that everyone on the mainland sympathised with and supported the NI Civil Rights movement. A couple of years, months even, and public opinion would have forced the changes you are now anticipating.
But then came the bombs."

But the first bombs were British, i.e. the UVF. The first killings were by the British, the RUC and the B-Specials. Or perhaps acts of violecnce don't count if they were carried out by British forces.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 05 - 04:26 PM

Dear guest 2.50pm will you please deter from muddying their rose tinted view of everything british. It confuses them.

They have truth bafflers fitted to their ears which deflect all fact . It is a little known private operation that has distinct side effects. One being they start to talk through their collective arses.


We have some sensitive souls here who still believe the Irish are savages that needed saving, and boy were they the ones to save us.

Sorry chaps. You never enhanced our beautiful country and we can't wait to see the backs of you. But please come back in the summer and boost the tourist trade now.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 05 - 04:19 PM

The US Civil Rights protesters were also attacked and fired upon.
They continued their dignified, peaceful protests and achieved all their aims, while Republicans in Ireland still wait 30 plus years later.
Would US Civil Rights have been advanced more quickly if they started back shooting young GIs, National Guardsmen and Police Officers, and planting bombs in shopping malls?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 05 - 04:36 PM

We never rolled over and played dead Keith. Perhaps you should have lobbied your govt to act a bit quicker eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 07 May 05 - 06:46 PM

"Now your northern nigger's a Negro
You see he's got his dignity
Down here we're too ignorant to realize
That the North has set the nigger free

Yes he's free to be put in a cage
In Harlem in New York City
And he's free to be put in a cage on the South-Side of Chicago
And the West-Side
And he's free to be put in a cage in Hough in Cleveland
And he's free to be put in a cage in East St. Louis
And he's free to be put in a cage in Fillmore in San Francisco
And he's free to be put in a cage in Roxbury in Boston
They're gatherin' 'em up from miles around
Keepin' the niggers down"

That kind of Civil rights, Keith?

.... Rednecks, Randy Newman

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: podman
Date: 07 May 05 - 07:51 PM

A braw brave paen to all ye sons of Erin:

The Gaelic Song Lyrics
by
The Arrogant Worms


Through the ages, through war, pestilence and sleet, the Celtic culture has survived, it's songs and dances passed from father to son, from mother to daughter, from uncle to goat. And though few still speak Gaelic, the ancient language of the Celts, all hearts are still stirred by the beautiful tones of this mellifluous tongue.

Ah ma wee hach patew mae bo clee hach maneagh
Heow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow BARK meow
Saigh hough loo loo cheow dach hagh vreigh chouach mouheaugh
Douauh meah mae couchah moo ma meagh pach hooragh

And though other cultures tried to destroy them, driven no doubt by their jealousy of the Celts' fine fashion sense and edible cuisine, they did not surrender. Actually, they surrendered quite often, but they were never entirely wiped out, clinging to the corners of small islands, their voices raised in song, the clarion call of the pipes ringing out to the heavens.

(Undescribably beautiful penny-whistle solo)

Ah ma wee hach patew mae bo clee hach maneagh
Heow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow BARK meow
Saigh hough loo loo cheow dach hagh vreigh chouach mouheaugh
Douauh meah mae couchah moo ma meagh pach hooragh

Ah ma wee hach patew mae bo clee hach maneagh
Heow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow BARK meow
Saigh hough loo loo cheow dach hagh vreigh chouach mouheaugh
Douauh meah mae couchah moo ma meagh pach hooragh
Meach bo meah mea bloh meah hoo noo euach moo doo beah

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 07 May 05 - 08:27 PM

Come on Keith we're talking about an army of occupation murdering innocents which is far, far removed from the situation in the US. Do you really, truely believe that the civil rights movement has prevailed in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 05 - 09:29 AM

Den,
before the Civil Rights movement we did not know. As I have said, we used to sing all the US Civil Rights songs in the folk clubs, and it came as a shock that the same cause was being argued in part of our country.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 09 May 05 - 09:36 AM

Which has bugger all to do with any robbery.

Did you ever sing Irish Civil Rights songs in your folk clubs, Keith?, or was Civil Rights something that other cultures demanded.

I laugh away to myself at the idea that the English always supported the 'underdog'... like the cause of the black South Africans, for example.

The British Empire was based on some of that milk of human kindness, Keith.
Would you agree?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 05 - 09:41 AM

I can not read recent replies here at work because someone must have used some rude words and the system rejects the whole lot.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 09 May 05 - 10:12 AM

Tell your browser to recognise 'Civil Rights'

Then tell your government

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:03 PM

That's great, Keith.

Now we know how to bugger your system up at work

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,William Gates
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:05 PM

He could always try a de bugger

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:33 PM

The Empire was gone by the 70s
We did sing old rebel songs.
Have you not seen the old news footage of ranks of State Troopers facing the Civil Rights protesters?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:36 PM

Oh yes, and predjudice does still exist in the US and every other country, but every citizen is fully enfranchised and it is illegal to discriminate.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 09 May 05 - 03:02 PM

Your point being?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 09 May 05 - 03:25 PM

Keith... you're waffling again

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 05 - 04:01 PM

Waffling?
Well OK, but I was responding to a lot of posts at once.
My point was
Civil Rights movements arose in both countries
Both were subject to lethal violence from state forces
In US they persued non violence and were successful
In NI the leadership of what became PIRA used the opportunity to enlist the angry young men and began a killing spree out of all proportion (Amnesty International attribution of killings)
The Civil Rights movement was replaced by a movement reviled by most people outside the nationalist community, and a few inside.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 09 May 05 - 04:33 PM

The Civil Rights Movement was beaten back to the ghettos they were reviled as being coming from.
In 1969 The IRA was the only buffer the Nationalist community had against the State Forces/Loyalist Paramilitaries.
Non-violence was not an option.
Especially in Belfast, where the 'Blacks' were surrounded by very large group of hungry 'Whites'

You are, of course entitled to you opinion, Keith, but whereas discrimination can be legislated against, the above quote from Randy Newman shows the reality of these kind of situations.

I'm afraid the Nationalist people of the north of Ireland wanted a little bit more than that, and its the old maxim, really, isnt it?
You push a person so far, he'll eventually hit back.

And when you have dirty tricks brigades pulling bank heists to try and bring you back down in the mud again (where they think we belong), there's always people like you who sit in your ivory Hertford-like towers, and tell us what you think WE should do.

There was a NEED for barricades, Keith. Or do you think all the news reel footage was recorded for television on the same vacant lot in Hollywood where they staged the moon landings?

Either get real, or stop for a moment and try and empathise with the situation for a little bit longer than it takes you to sing one of those protest songs of yours.

And take your finger out of your ear!

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 05 - 08:01 PM

Look at the housing situation in American cities, the prison population, education, employment prospects, the disenfranchisement of black voters in Florida and tell us again how sucessful the Civil Rights Movement was. No, don't tell us. Go to housing projects in, say, Chicago and tell the inhabitants that they have achieved equality with their white brothers and sisters.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 10 May 05 - 02:25 AM

Looks like its time for 'One Man One Vote' in the States again.

Not being intimate with the US voting arrangements, can any of our Stateside brothers or sisters inform me of how one gets disenfranchised in this day and age, please?

This should make for interesting reading I'll bet, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 10 May 05 - 03:03 AM

I have forwarded the Der Speigel link to one of U2's Press Officers not 2 mins ago, Wolfgang.

Libel is libel whichever way you look at it

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 May 05 - 03:14 AM

Sorry to keep bringing this up, but it is the crux of the matter, where is the money?, and no arrests yet, any leads Keith?.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 10 May 05 - 03:17 AM

Bugger all, if you ask me.

Are you at work yet, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 05 - 03:48 AM

OK, I am not from NI and misjudge many things.
I started the thread to discuss the heist, but then people started talking about the glorious armed struggle, and I wanted to say that there is another way of looking at what happened.
The Nationalist community was I know under persecution and violence, and that is why the army was sent in to protect them.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: polaitaly
Date: 10 May 05 - 04:52 AM

The nationalist community was so well protected that the first thing the army did was Bloody Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 04:53 AM

Keith you don't protect people by shooting the unarmed ones. And I'm buggered if I am going to say that again.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:24 AM

(Bugger me, bugger is getting through today)

Did the whole army open fire on unarmed protesters in an act of state sponsored genocide?
I am only remebering from news reports, and hesitate to make a comment before members who were there, but I recall it was a single plattoon at Bloody Sunday. Troops whose whole training was for fighting an armour/infantry war in Western Europe, and utterly unprepared for the situation.
They had no anti riot or crowd control kit, only their rifles.
One young soldier seems to have lost it and a couple more joined in.
Most maintained their discipline. How many shots were fired?
A shameful episode for sure, and the authorities actions afterwards fueled the understandable anger.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:39 AM

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/birw.htm

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:41 AM

10. CONCLUSION

10.1 In our submission, the events which took place on Bloody Sunday amounted to the summary and arbitrary execution of unarmed civilians who were the victims of soldiers acting under the military and political command of the United Kingdom government.

For those who just want to cut to the chase. This is the conclusion of the report I linked to below.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 May 05 - 07:19 AM

Tír Chonaill,

thanks, you made me laugh when spelling Spiegel 'Speigel'. That could be considered libel assuming you did what you did on purpose. But I guess it was only a typo.

What is the decent Irish way to react to a typo? I learned it from Tír Eoghain in another thread recently:

Learn to fucking spell Irish properly...

Fucking dimwit Brit

My way to react to a funny sense altering typo is to laugh.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:42 PM

Speigel, smeigel

I can't speak for anyone but myself, Wolfgang, but I saw that, and I assumed the poster said that because he was pointing out an attempt at impersonation.

Sense altering, or tense altering?
...because there is no 'Tir' in the Irish Language

Typos are fine, we all make them (even you!!)
But if you are trying to misrepresent someone, and in the process spell their name wrong, I think Tír Eoghain's reaction was justified, Wolfnag.

I mean Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:43 AM

Yeah, everybody makes typos including me, but this particular typo has an unvoluntarily funny side (for a German):

Spiegel is 'mirror'
Speigel is 'spit-jelly'

And then add to that the content of the post in which a poster complains about the magazine 'Spit-jelly' publishing libel. That's why I did laugh.

I love sense altering typos, like when Bobert spells Israel Isreal. The best I ever read at Mudcat was when someone spelled the Austrian chancellor 'Schussel' instead of 'Schüssel' making him 'dimwit' instead of 'bowl'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 06:02 AM

I love the word 'fart'

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 06:03 AM

Means 'speed', doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:55 AM

What is 'unvoluntarily', Wolfgang?
and how is it contextualized in that sentence?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 12 May 05 - 09:49 AM

I get angry when I read misinformation regarding Bloody Sunday. Bloody Sunday happened for one reason and one reason only. It was to put the fear of God into the people and to make Paddy lie down but Paddy didn't lie down and the rest is history.

Keith said that, "One young soldier seems to have lost it and a couple more joined in.
Most maintained their discipline. How many shots were fired?

But you see it didn't happen like that. At least three of the people murdered were systematically targeted from sniper positions high up on the Derry city walls. When Robert J. Breglio (an American ballistics expert) examined the autopsies and medical reports of William Nash, Michael McDaid and John Young he noted the similarities of the angle of trajectories of the fatal wounds. I quote, "I will further conclude that in my professional opinion the projectiles that struck William Nash, John Young and Michael McDaid originated from an area up in the vicinity of Derry's walls and were fired by a high powered weapon using telescopic sights."

Another ballistics expert, Dr. Hugh Thomas a consultant surgeon at Prince Charles hospital, Merthyr Tydfil in an interview with channel 4 claimed that these three victims could not possibly have been hit at street level as was the official statement. He said, "It would be almost impossible for those three men in the few seconds that were available to them to bend to exactly the same angle and face exactly the same way and be shot in exactly the same fashion. When speaking of the shooter he said, "Its likely to be a marksman, an exceptionally good marksman, firing towards, obviously and in actual fact, firing quite fast at the three suspects (his words) who were clumped in the same area. You would only need a fraction of a second to align the next individual and complete the job."

The trajectory of the bullets which killed all three of these men was strikingly similar. The bullets entered their heads from the front to the back and from above to below at an angle of 45 degrees. Doesn't sound like the shooter was panicking or at street level.

According to the British Army report if you want to believe it (from the Cain website) there were 108 rounds fired by 21 soldiers. That would dispell the myth of the panicky rookie and the discipline of the others. I'm not sure but aren't the Paras one of Britains most professional, highly trained and aggresive units? Probably not the best choice to police a civil rights rally.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:40 AM

I know I'm drifting off the original thread topic but go http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/circum.htm for more information.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Den
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:42 AM

Try this http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/circum.htm

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:11 PM

Thanks for the correction, 12 May 05 - 08:55 AM

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 05 - 03:05 PM

Thanks for that Den.
I had not heard the sniper on the wall theory.
If that did happen, would the Paras believe the incoming fire was meant for them?
Re the 108 shots. If you fire a rifle at close range into a crowd you are boound to hit someone, and a single body would not stop a 7.62 high velocity round. 13 killed and 13 injured suggests only around 20 fired into the crowd. It could still be one out of control man. Others may have been attempting to return fire at real or imagined gunmen in the flats.
Something drove the Paras to take cover behind the low wall. they can be accused of much, but not nervous timidity.
Also there was a low velocity injury, and the brave priest saw an armed man in the crowd.

I realise this event is still painfull to many alive today, and fully accept that all the slain and injured were shot without any justification.

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:11 PM

Did you read the article Den linked to, Keith?

"According to British Army evidence 21 soldiers fired their weapons on 'Bloody Sunday' and shot 108 rounds between them. Two soldiers were responsible for firing a total 35 bullets. Soldier F fired 13 shots and Soldier H fired 22 shots and both soldiers were in the area of Glenfada Park at the time of the shooting."

What's this '13 killed and 13 injured suggests only around 20 fired into the crowd.... Others may have been attempting to return fire at real or imagined gunmen in the flats' tripe?

Are you trying to re-write history again?

You're bloody right it's painful.
Especially when assholes like you try to somehow excuse the murdering bastards.

Accept that your time in the North of Ireland was a shame and a disgrace.

And then get on with your life

Subject: RE: BS: UK worst robbery.PIRA?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:12 PM

250

This should be called the Mother of all Britshit Thread